North Korea

That's... interesting. Makes me wonder if Kim Jong-un might actually be serious about those reforms and may even be looking towards re-unification. After all, Germany are more or less the experts on the subject.

I doubt it. Chances are more likely that come a week or two from now we'll be hearing a story about how his army's special forces have successfully "kidnapped" several of the world's most promient businessmen, and will only return them upon being paid 100 million...

...in Chinese Yuan.

They don't have the balls. Its all well and good for them to kidnap Japanese citizens, as the Japanese political culture precludes the use or threat of force for their return. I imagine America's response to the head of Google being kidnapped would be to send the Navy over to break stuff until they gave him back.

Schild und Schwert der Partei

Yes, Article 9 and all that. Basically, the JSDF*

isn't allowed to take offensive action.

edited 8th Jan '13 3:19:21 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On

But they have kidnapped Americans and I havent seen the flotilla your talking about.

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.

SK/Japan/US try to rescue or demand returns of hostages. When it's blatantly obvious, North tends to listen, because these things come up in bargaining. It's a matter of which side gives up.

It's really tragic.

They've done it twice - in 2009 and in 1968. In '68, they had Red China and the USSR to help them out. In 2009, Bill Clinton went over and threatened them.

But do you seriously think that the USA would take the kidnap of a major CEO lying down? In 2009, they also redeployed USPACFLT to add weight to their words. Its textbook Gunboat Diplomacy, and the extent to which North Korea could rely on Chinese support is limited (China has said it will not support NK if NK is the aggressor).

Schild und Schwert der Partei

Yea, I think so.

Because no one, specially Obama, is willing to risk Korean war II for the CEO of Google. Republican strategist might even get a kick out of having one of the main donors of the democratic party in NK.

Its not like the U.S could do anything to effectively get him back anyways. Same goes for the Japanese. What are they gonna do? Bomb them? Put sanctions?

The NK responded incredibly possitvely to Koizumi's direct negotiation approach.

In fact they returned all the hostages, except for the one who are, presumably, dead.

As for Clinton, I think more than threats, it was the photo ops that sort of convince the NK to work with the Americans.

edited 9th Jan '13 8:45:50 AM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.

Guys, Kim Jong Un is not his father. So enough with the presumptions of random Bond villainy. More likely, NK will simply make a distinction between the politicians and the businessmen...especially if it means they get technology.

You think he's fully in charge? Or is he a figurehead?

Almost impossible to say, although he has had at least two top generals, Kim Chol and Ri Yong-ho, executed (Kim by mortar round!), which would suggest at least some level of loyalty from the military (that it permitted him to do that).

Schild und Schwert der Partei

Executed by mortar round?

Glad to know the Kims havent lost their touch.

edited 9th Jan '13 8:10:12 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.

Indeed. For the heinous crime of "drinking and carousing around" during the official mourning period for Fat Man. Little Boy ordered nothing to be left of the unfortunate Chol "down to his hair and teeth."

edited 9th Jan '13 4:33:26 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei

A Report on Google Chairman Eric Schmidt's Trip to North Korea

Former U.N. Ambassador and New Mexican Governor, Bill Richardson (who went with Google) delivered a letter for an imprisoned American to officials in North Korea

Senator McCain (R-AZ): Google Delegation to N. Korea ‘Useful Idiots’

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

I have to agree with McCain on the "useful idiots" comment. Through several generations the Norks have been playing the western governments for suckers, going "Yeah, sure, we'll clean up" and then totally ignoring that when they get some concession or other from the west trying to "be reasonable" with a country that has repeatedly demonstrated it's anything but.

I don't see the Richardson/Schmidt visit being anything more than a private citizen version of the same thing.

All your safe space are belong to Trump

I don't know whether they're useful idiots or carrots, as in part of the 'carrot and stick' approach. Burmyanmar still amazes me with the incredible (if staggering) movements they've made towards democracy recently and I doubt that would have happened if all we were doing was hitting and ignoring them.

I do not wish to disrupt the conversation here but has anyone read "Escape from Camp 14"? The book is about Shin Dong-hyuk who is the first and only person who managed to escape from one of North Korea's internment and concentration camp. Among other things it provides an insight in the life and thinking of people in North Korea. It is shocking to read (imagine a book about someone who grows up in Gulag with all its horrors) but I can recommend it to those who are interested in the topic. I can only hope that if the North Koreans really falls one day, every single responsible will get tried for crimes against humanity.

Well they tend to react positevely when they are granted recognition.

And they tend to react overwhealming negatively when we do something against them.

So rather than seeing the West as suckers, they see themselves as equals, missguided as such stance might be, and thus develop the military and the tactical weapons necessary to act like it.

Please note that I am not making any apology for the genocidal and Orwellian goverment of NK.

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.

No, but thanks for the recommendation. Have you read "The Cleanest Race" by BR Meyers or "The Aquariums of Pyonyang" by Kang Chol-Hwan?

The Cleanest Race details North Korean propaganda, which the author argues is not Stalinist or Leninist, but racist-nationalist. He posits that North Korea's regime is actually very close to what a "completed" Third Reich might look like, and notes that it most resembles Imperial Japan in character.

The Aquariums of Pyongyang is an account of a decade inside Yodok concentration camp, a place that makes Plötzensee look like a holiday resort.

edited 12th Jan '13 10:19:28 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei

Former U.N. Ambassador and New Mexican Governor, Richardson fears North Korea is ‘heading towards confrontation’

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

Makes sense. NK got rid of all mentions of Marxism and Leninism a few years ago from their constitution ( and doubled down on the Juche ideology, which is exactly as the propaganda is described....

This is also discussed in the book, children are taught among other things that Koreans are the superior race, with the Chinese as close second. Western countries are degenerated and the worst of the worst are the people from Japan. Sounds depressingly familiar to me. But thank you for the recommendation, I am currently writing about the race ideology of Nazi Germany ( a very frustrating topic because I feel the need to bang my head on the keyboard while reading this garbage) so I think it will be interesting to read "The cleanest race" afterwards.

So NK have their own Plötzensee... .They probably have their own Volksgerichtshof (with a different name) too... .

"He posits that North Korea's regime is actually very close to what a "completed" Third Reich might look like, and notes that it most resembles Imperial Japan in character." I think this is a valid comparison, there are several similarities between what Hitler wanted Germany society to become and NK. It is frightening to see the effects from decades of brain washing and indoctrination and think what would have happened in Germany too. If NK ever collapses, the people there are in for a massive cultural shock and some adjusted views on History too.

I hate to throw around this term, since its way too overused, but would it actually be appropriate in this instance to call "Juche" or whatever ideology they follow a form of fascism? Honest question, not trying to just paint them as evil or something. It just seems like with the racial ideas and everything, it resembles that more then anything else at this point.

edited 12th Jan '13 6:47:00 PM by Lascoden

boop

I heavily disagree with that characterization.

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.

They seem to be similar in that they're both militaristic dictatorships that deifies the leader, but that's not exactly rare for military dictatorships.

edited 12th Jan '13 7:05:58 PM by Lascoden

boop