Bioshock Infinite

Still, if all they do is play (or watch) to the point where you meet her, it's gross malfeasance to judge the entire game on that basis.

Especially if they stopped paying attention after they realized that said element is in play. "X exists in this story, this offends me, I'm going to ignore everything to do with it, or leave and complain. Possibly both." And then they miss the Deconstructive elements entirely.

edited 18th Oct '13 12:32:56 PM by TobiasDrake

Yeah, but I'm kinda saying that up to about partway through Finkton, to Booker she kinda is. The fact that he stops seeing her as such is part of his character arc.

To Booker, maybe, but to the audience — if they haven't stopped paying attention due to jumping to conclusions — can easily see that she's neither as helpless as she looks nor willing to be an innocent pawn.

Yeeeeeees, but also see Distress Ball and Faux Action Girl. Other works have set that sort of independent! character up only to fall back on her needing rescuing by the male hero and having that be it.

edited 18th Oct '13 12:42:50 PM by Elle

Elizabeth does have Damsel tendencies, but the quote of mine that started this discussion said trophy. Trophy is a word with it's own encyclopedia of horrible implications and Elizabeth even her most Damsel is never a reward for a murder spree well done.

So yeah that's what I was saying.

edited 18th Oct '13 12:54:39 PM by odafangirl

True; I was taking it more in the broad sense of general objectification.

I'm not entirely sure that the concept of deconstruction entirely justifies all of the elements in play. Because buying into certain stereotypes and narrative practices of objectification allegedly for the sake of tearing them down to an extent buys into the logic of having your cake and eating it too.

To be a Faux Action Girl, she would have to be an Action Girl to begin with, and she never is. In combat, she plays an exclusively supporting role, scavenging supplies from other dimensions and opening tears when Booker needs them. Elizabeth's strength comes from her personality and the way she drives the plot; you don't need to be able to mow down hordes of enemies to be a strong, independent character that moves the story through your own initiative.

From the moment Elizabeth bludgeons Booker and knocks him out in order to grasp freedom rather than the fate he would ascribe for her, she's moving the story as an equal partner. She violently dismisses the idea that she should just do what she's told and let Booker take her where he wants her to be.

edited 18th Oct '13 12:56:08 PM by TobiasDrake

I don't really agree with that. Also, don't forget that Bioshock is a period piece. Columbia, for all its faults, was remarkably egalitarian when it came to gender (women fighting in the police forces for one thing), though I have to assume that other assumptions of the time period were intact. Booker would have been brought up with a litany of assumptions of how you do and don't treat a woman: male-as-protector of woman who need protecting, etc.

I'm not saying Elizabeth is a Faux Action Girl, just that precedent in other media suggests that there are many ways that she could have been done less well than she was, so someone avaluating her as a "strong female character" would have to play at least past the point where that becomes clear (I think around the first tear-travel).

edited 18th Oct '13 1:00:48 PM by Elle

I generally think deconstructions are good for getting new perspectives on things people just accept as read; the original Bioshock was a gigantic deconstruction of the linear shooter narrative and by extension the silent protagonist, and I love it to hell and back for that.

edited 18th Oct '13 12:57:50 PM by odafangirl

But the linear shooter narrative doesn't play into the same social context that the Damsel In Distress narrative does. Neither is the Silent Protagonist comparable to the Faux Action Girl.

One is an annoying illogical trend in video games. One is an annoying illogical trend in society.

edited 18th Oct '13 1:18:03 PM by unnoun

@Elle

You were just clarifying how someone might compare Elizabeth to a 'trophy', right?

edited 18th Oct '13 1:08:45 PM by FOFD

-snip-

edited 18th Oct '13 1:04:51 PM by FOFD

Nevermind.

edited 18th Oct '13 1:05:46 PM by unnoun

The trophy comparison was made here, along with many other things that I disagreed with. I summarized my opinion of his review on the last page thusly.

Damn ninja edits.

Answering the question "Is there some weakness to Elizabeth I'm missing": Well, maybe. I don't know. I fully accept that by the end of the game, she is the one in control, and before that she has personality and determination in spades. But if you take all the story away, all the context and the character development, Elizabeth is, depending on the point in the game, an ammo/health/money dispenser or the goal of the next quest. It's the narrative that makes it work in her favor.

Answering the questions "Am I just pointing out how someone might misinterpret her as a trophy?": Yes.

edited 18th Oct '13 1:11:06 PM by Elle

@unnoun Fair point, but I consider Elizabeth a good character breaking through confining traditional mechanics and expectations. I admit she's not the most progressive video game character ever, not by a longshot, but I don't think the devs were having their cake and eating it to at all.

If you take any action game, movie, etc. out of its story context, and just look at it as a mechanical process of killing things and taking their stuff, then you are failing at anything resembling proper criticism. I wonder why anyone is willing to give that kind of drivel the time of day, unless they are deliberately seeking out confirmation of their prejudices.

It's certainly not possible to have a rational debate with them, anyway.

edited 18th Oct '13 1:17:57 PM by Fighteer

I think that's going a bit too far.

This. Play the Game, Skip the Story describes a large portion of the gaming audience, though I agree that it's hardly the best way to go about this game. The implications of the game mechanics themselves shouldn't be ignored either because they are just as much part of the storytelling as the rest of it. Taken as a whole, however, it does work. It just took me a while to be fully reassured of Elizabeth's competence.

edited 18th Oct '13 1:27:59 PM by Elle

I'll be honest and admit that I'm not really sure where to proceed from here.

Does it need to?

I suppose not.

Frankly, anyone who plays the game but skips the story forfeits the right to complain about the story. That's like complaining about the gameplay because it didn't look very engaging from the brief glimpses of it you saw in the You Tube videos of the cutscenes you watched.

edited 18th Oct '13 1:58:23 PM by TobiasDrake