Cats are the epitome of Chaotic Alignment. Even physical Law is abhorrent to them.
So, those cars with the keypad locks... why do they often put two numbers on one button? Five buttons labeled 1-5 are just as secure as five buttons labeled 1-10. Also, do they have keypad ignition?
Do you highlight everything looking for secret messages?
See, on the " 1 | 2" button, you push the left side of the button for "1" and you push the left side for "2". And you push it right in the middle for both at once. Maybe limiting the number of buttons means fewer cracks around the buttons that need waterproofing?
Fawriel, Tropes Are Not Bad. There is nothing new under the sun. (Though one can make a decent approximation of originality by recombining elements in interesting ways.) Good writing can make an unoriginal idea work (just ask Shakespeare) and bad writing will ruin an original premise.
I've never played To S or heard of its reputation as a ClicheStorm, but I do know exactly how you feel. What's even worse is when you're in love with the show/book/game that started the cliche, and you hear other people putting it down for using it. I've spun off into a blind fury about critiques of Evangelion's herd of emos before, and I'll probably do it again. It's not Shinji's fault that every mecha pilot under the sun is trying to out-pathetic him!
(weaving)
Meta4 wrote:
Also: I've noticed that I can ask "What's the name of that anime where everybody is psychologically messed up?" and it applies to every single anime ever made.
SHIKI is dead.
AntiCitizen Two wrote:
This. Just because a story has cliches pouring out its ears doesn't mean it's no good. I enjoyed To S for what it was, ridiculousness and all.
Although I still haven't seen Evangelion.
Accept no substitutes.
... ... ...
... Y'know, Faw.
.. I was going to spam-rant the fuck out of you next time you were online about this EXACT same subject. Not the same game, of course, but the whole phenomena in general! This is uncanny, and made of creepy. Now that my would-be MSN rant to you has lost all sense of awesomeness, I'll just say I get the same thing.
In general, I hate it when something I like has tons of great reviews on a site, but a few negative ones.. no matter how few.. bug the HELL out of me, and I actually get offended when the people say "The plot is handled badly, the characters are trite, ect". I often think that this person was clearly not the kind of person the work was made for, and they're allowed to have their own opinion... but still. Pl-
This isn't the same without the comforting grayish to dark glow of my MSN box. It's Different. I don't like it. It doesn't give me the same joy... or the same feel from my disjointed ramblings, passed up in little chunks, reflecting that I typed it up exactly as I was thinking it. Bah.
You will suffer a rant most... rant full... tonight! Yes! Tonight. Be there. If no one can tell, I'm really really tired right now.
Actually, on the subject of MSN, what colour/style are the peoples here like?
Actually, damnit! I just found an example of that previous subject thingy I had going before I brought up the all-important MSN! This!
I will now show how this offends me, even though it shouldn’t. I’m rather pissed off now, and I’m just going to type EXACTLY how I feel as I read this more.
What bugs me most are his mentions of him having a “strong stomach” yet labeling the comic’s subject as “distasteful” Trust me.
The comics are hardly disgusting. The violence is over the top, but compared to Mortal Kombat (which itself isn’t bad at all) it’s pussy.
The fact that he says the “revenge fantasies” are childlike and self indulgent. … Yes. Johnny is a rather sad and pathetic character, as is noted many times. It’s meant to be like that.
The hard to read writing is a point, yeah. I’ve grown used to it myself, if not to love it. It is a little hard on the eyes at times, though. Still, it’s abstract and unique, I like that.
And THIS one! “Meaningless satire. Yeah, so we all hate poll-takers. It sure is annoying when the 7-11 man turns off the Frostee machine. The solution is to blow them away? Wow, that'll sure teach 'em that what they were doing was evil.”
Damnit, he misses the point! The comics never say “Oh, if someone pisses you off, kill them.” Fuck! Again, Johnny is a sad and delusion character! He’s not in his right mind, he’s not going to handle the situation like anyone else would in real life.
Y’know. ‘Cause it’s fiction.
“Pretentious speechifying. JTHM is given to long monologues about violence etc. Yawn. I presume these are meant to be funny, deep, wise, or ironic. They aren't.”
Because your sense of humour and philosophies is what everyone else’s should be.
His then note of the comic using the same joke over and over is also very self-righteous. Many of them hold the same themes, but are all used very differently. It sounds like he’s just taking stabs at the sense of humour because he doesn’t “get” it.
Though the shots Vasquez takes at the goth subculture are pretty one-note, I’ll give him that.
“Curious, I checked Amazon for reviews of this title and found 29 wildly enthusiastic ones, many proclaiming Vasquez a "genius." Sorry, folks, but drawing comics in which a character kills people and then speechifies (or vice-versa) does not qualify as genius.”
A story about a teenager in red and blue tights who shoots spider-webs from his hands (which also allow him to swing around NYC a very high speeds, btw) and uses them to fight against self proclaimed “super villains” seemed to make one man a “genius”
A very short poem in which the writer just MADE UP words at his own accord, gave us a such climatic battle verses as “The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!” and told us of a beast with one of the silliest name’s ever created managed to get labeled a genius.
… Oh, hell, just check out all the “Better Than It Sounds” Tropes pages.
And this one is just nasty. “I suppose this book appeals to ultra-alienated teens or adults who constantly imagine horrible deaths for persons perpetuating real and imagined slights. The rest of us can safely pass.”
Damn, how’d he know I loved to fantasize about hacking all my friends and family, hell, even random people, to death? How does he know!? Damn him! In the same way everyone who likes Sailor Moon loves to pretend they have magical powers and are teen girls in... well.. sailor suites.
________________________
So, I’ve cooled down now. And read over what I said. Thankfully, it’s come out as I want. I sound stupidly angry over nothing, and probably just make myself sound like a jerk with nothing better to do than yell at some guy I’ve never met because he doesn’t like what I like.
At the same time, I still feel that this guy takes his own opinion of the comic and thinks it utter “truth”. It’s a black comedy, and if you don’t like that, that doesn’t mean it’s awful.
If I were to be so arrogant, I’ll say that I “get” the comic. What I don’t get is a lot of anime… I’ve recently been exploring it more (yes Faw, Lucky Star will come soon =P) but I’ve made sure that I’ve checked the general opinion of a lot of them if I didn’t like it, checked for any “reception” parts on Wikipedia, and read some reviews before I go “Okay, it really is crap”. We all carry a certain ego to ourselves and our opinions, but I still prefer it if people don’t take what they think of a certain work as God.
At the same time, I probably sound just like I take my own opinion as God about JTHM there. Not too sure myself.
Either way, self parody never hurts.
And thus ends a post that took about 50 minutes to do, all up. Yay!
I have trouble taking those who enjoy JTHM seriously. Just keep that in mind.
Personally, I agree with what the reviewer says. He makes a number of good points, despite the brevity of the "review". Violence is a childish way to deal with conflict, and many will find themselves yearning for more after a while. JTHM is completely self-indulgent, which isn't a bad thing in small doses; as before, it's something most people will have a good chuckle at and then move on.
At the same time, the caricatures of various people (where qualities are inflated to the point of Flanderization) are unnecessary and don't communicate any real point. This is why he said the satire was meaningless: if you don't portray the people you're satirizing with at least some semblance of realism, the audience comes away with nothing. The reviewer's note about violent retribution fantasies being an example of his own inherent childishness, and not some fault of those he would revenge himself against, was especially poignant.
Finally, your last two examples don't really make much sense. Stan Lee was involved in a lot more than Spider-Man, and is famous as the creator of a number of comic book characters; more importantly, his widely varying characters and stories were what made some people consider him a genius. Personally, I would call him "especially gifted," but perhaps not a genius. The second example, Lewis Carroll's "Jabberwocky," was merely a small segment of a larger work. His broader work, including Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass, were what lead to him being considered a genius; that these stories seem to hold such deep meaning (despite his repeated claims that they were nothing but children's stories) greatly contributed to this.
Accept no substitutes.
Rock wrote:
- notes*
Rock wrote:
At the same time, the caricatures of various people (where qualities are inflated to the point of Flanderization) are unnecessary and don't communicate any real point. This is why he said the satire was meaningless: if you don't portray the people you're satirizing with at least some semblance of realism, the audience comes away with nothing. The reviewer's note about violent retribution fantasies being an example of his own inherent childishness, and not some fault of those he would revenge himself against, was especially poignant.
- oepns mouth wide with finger pointed in air*
Y'know, I was fully waiting for a post that would be like this.
Still, I'm not smart enough to try and reply to one, and I know it. I'm sure I just got internet-owned. Or... whatever the term would be.
I will say, however, that when reading your notes on JTHM, I didn't get offended or angry at it all, probably because you actually explained to me in more depth why you feel this way about the comic, and (to me) it sounded much less like just saying "I don't like it." and stopping there.
As for the examples, I'm aware of Lee and his (boatloads) or other works, and the Alice thing, but, as they were typed in what was essentially train-of-thought, I couldn't think of anything better.
I'm so friggin' lazy.
Meta4 wrote:
My problem is that I hate the people who do proclaim that tropes are bad, coupled with the fact that I can't help feeling personally offended when someone says something bad about me or the things I identify with. The word "cliche" is inherently negative, and ClicheStorm even more so. And, well, that I started enjoying To S less was not so much that I heard about its use of tropes, but rather that doing so got rid of my immersion and made me start looking for them in classic TVTropesWillRuinYourLife fashion. It's still a good story, but Colette became so much less adorable when I started predicting the way her conversations with Lloyd develop, and being right about it.
So, back to my question. Should I just go ahead and erase the unjustified "Cliche Storm" mentions from the article or would that be uncalled for, or should I completely trash and redo it, or would that be uncalled for?
I'm pretty sure the ClicheStorm part of the Grandia article is justified, so I'd say leave it. It IS cliche, isn't it?
Accept no substitutes.
Reason with me then. Have you played the game? If so, explain to me how it's a cliche storm.
EDIT: I don't want to double post...
So. To get straight to the point. Would you shoot me if I submitted a "Fawriel" YKTTW expecting people to launch a user page for me? Would this, in fact, be totally frikkin awesome?
Fawriel wrote:
I used to really get into some stories, and I would heartily recommend them to other people. What happened to me is that I learned my circle of friends has very differing views on what constitutes good entertainment or not. My roommates for the past two years love to shoot down what I love, I think just to see my reaction. It's funny because later I find them watching and enjoying some of those series more than I do (e.g. they used to think Red Dwarf
was stupid, now they love it more than I do), but I'm a better person, I don't call them out on it. Other friends of mine I have to try to convince to watch or play something, and often we just have different tastes.
I've learned to appreciate a story for its own merits, and I've found that many elements of a story can be cliche but the way in which it's presented will mitigate the cliches. Sometimes this just means having really good graphics or art direction. At other times this is rearranging tropes to work with or against each other in novel ways. At still other times, I find enjoyment in a story because it reminds me of another story. Drakengard had something like this: Caim reminds me of Achilles from The Iliad. TV Tropes did ruin my life for a good month or so though until I learned to sit back and look for the good stuff.
Blackadder wrote:
tore up Devil May Cry 4, and I didn't hold it against him. Really, it depends on if the reviewer makes good, logical points for me. I consider myself a fanboy of that series, but I don't go foaming at the mouth for it. Very few things I do. I figure it's just better to have a laid back attitude on this sort of thing. People will have different inclinations; variety's the spice of life. It also helps if you're looking for others who agree with you to reinforce your self-esteem (I do this all the time) to peruse critic aggregate sites like Metacritic or Rotten Tomatoes.
Speaking of Jhonen Vasquez, I've never read JTHM and I'm not certain I'd go for it, but I love Squee.
I wrote about a fish turning into the moon.
dder the Troper zephid wrote:
tore up Devil May Cry 4, and I didn't hold it against him. Really, it depends on if the reviewer makes good, logical points for me. I consider myself a fanboy of that series, but I don't go foaming at the mouth for it. Very few things I do. I figure it's just better to have a laid back attitude on this sort of thing. People will have different inclinations; variety's the spice of life. It also helps if you're looking for others who agree with you to reinforce your self-esteem (I do this all the time) to peruse critic aggregate sites like Metacritic or Rotten Tomatoes.
Speaking of Jhonen Vasquez, I've never read JTHM and I'm not certain I'd go for it, but I love Squee.I'd have to say I'm sorta the same, as sen with The Rock there. It's if the review comes without enough reason for what it's saying I get peeved. Still, I take pride in this, when I'm pissed over these things, I'm always very aware of how stupid it is and how stupid I sound. I also do the same thing with looking for people to agree. It's an easy way to see the "flip side" of things. That, and it's fun.
Also, yay Squee!
Why do I have to verify who I am to post now? ^.-
Apparently, you aren't logged in. —-
Is there an electrician in the house? I found these neat 7 candela LE Ds at Radio Shack. Each one expects a voltage drop of 3V. So, if one were to connect 40 of them (out of my budget, alas) in series, the total voltage drop should be 120V. Could one safely connect that directly to an outlet?
Do you highlight everything looking for secret messages?
(weaving)
It would be parallel to any other circuits running through the home so I think it would be okay. But at any rate, you shouldn't connect them in series anyways. If one LED breaks they'd all go out if you connect in series. You should have them connected in parallel.
SHIKI is dead.
But they'd have to be in series- in parallel circuits, each leg gets the same 120V voltage, while the total current is equal to the sum of each leg's drawn current. A series circuit would instead sum the voltage, so each individual LED only has to deal with 3V.
Do you highlight everything looking for secret messages?
Tangent128 wrote:
It sounds like you don't really need an electrician.
Except that the surest way to kill yourself is to think you know what you're doing...
Changing the subject, are we mature enough to discuss the chocolate vs. vanilla debate without starting a flamewar?
Do you highlight everything looking for secret messages?
Gentleman Adventurer!
Is there a mod in the audience here capable of splitting this thread? Because I was really enjoying it until it went and jumped the shark and turned into a debate over. . . whatever the hell argument it was that dragged in from a different thread.
Your funny quote here! (Maybe)
Tangent128 wrote:
Well we could if those vanilla slurping cowards would get over themselves for just the one half of a split fucking second it would take for them to realize that they are hopelessly, irredeemably vile, corrupt, stupid and infinitely wrong about everything. It would also help if they'd stop hating puppies and laughter and everything good, but I guess that's too much to ask for.
What about those of us that like chocolate and vanilla? Especially in ice cream?
(weaving)
Tangent128 wrote:
AntiCitizen Two wrote:
Well we could if those vanilla slurping cowards would get over themselves for just the one half of a split fucking second it would take for them to realize that they are hopelessly, irredeemably vile, corrupt, stupid and infinitely wrong about everything. It would also help if they'd stop hating puppies and laughter and everything good, but I guess that's too much to ask for.
Here, here! This is someone who knows what he's talking about.
Also, in response to Fawriel from earlier, I haven't played Grandia myself. I was judging based on what others had told me, and the fact that a friend of mine (who is notable in his taste for cliche media) counts it among the best games he has ever played.
Accept no substitutes.
Happy 18th birthday, Tangent. O,o
DoWeHaveThisOneAlready?
I think it'd be worth it having a thread for all those little things we want to talk about that aren't worth creating a whole new thread for. Admittedly, threads like these are pretty dangerous most of the time, but slow as it is around here, I doubt that it'd get cluttered too quickly. And if you are like me, you'll constantly come up with stuff that you want to ask a certain group of people. In fact, I had collected a whole bunch of things in the last few days. And forgot them again. Oh well, I'll remember them again.
Now, the reason I finally decided to make this thread after all despite having forgotten those little questions that nagged me, is that I need to rant. Also, I'm curious. Does it every happen to any of you that you're reading a story or playing a game or so, you fall completely in love with it and want to hug it and kiss it because it's just so well-made and everything... and then you read up about it and every second line just seems to tell you about how everything in the story is a cliche? It seems to happen to me all the time, and somehow I can't help feeling offended when it happens. Not to mention that it completely ruins my experience if I try to keep playing afterwards. When I started playing TalesOfSymphonia, it seemed like the best thing ever. After a few minutes it already put a crack in the seemingly black-and-white morality with Genis wondering about the bad guys' motivations, Colette was adorable, and so on. Then I checked Wikipedia on it and it told me that it was full of cliches. Oy! But I didn't want to let that get me down, so I started talking to a good friend and asked him if he knew To S. And he's basically like "oh, of course! That game's full of cliches, right!" Headdesk. Well, afterwards I at least managed to explain to him that "cliches well done" aren't cliches, but tropes, but, yeah. It just wasn't quite the same anymore. Well, that's in the past. But now I came across the page on Grandia, and someone apparently had the nerve to call it a ClicheStorm. Including a suggestion not to start a drinking game because you won't last for long. Now Grandia is where the fun stops. I'll admit to the fact that it has a Kid Hero and a cute little girl with a cute little animal and a scantily clad magical girl who turns out to be the last of an ancient race or something - but tell me straight in my face that it wasn't really darn well made. ...actually, don't. That would be rude. Well, I guess I'm sounding like someone who doesn't really belong in this kind of community. Such happens when you rant. In any case, I'm not sure how to act now. I get upset when I feel that something I like has not been treated fairly, but I also know that you guys don't like Justifying Edits and Weasel Edits and stuff. Should I just buckle up and rewrite the whole darn article while conveniently forgetting to leave the Cliche Storm entry in it?
Also: How can cats lose so much hair and still keep a thick layer of fur? Someone tell these kids that PerpetualMolt is not viable in real life!