Code Geass

I take it your on the early chapter's if you mentioning nina. Don't worry, cornelia and euphie focus comes along eventually.

See that's what i like about Dauntless, it gives some focus elsewhere at points, and it goes for a more human protrayal of character's like Nina. Whom if you have done some research has the background of going into the ghetto's one time and something bad happened to her there (hinted to be rape), which was the cause of her xenaphobia, which makes the scene at the lake hotel whre jlf soliders threaten to take her to another room make some sense in context.

Overall i like fic's that give some focus on character's who didn't get much or any in the show. Which i want to do in my fic i have planned.

I'm on chapter 16, yeah. I like that it's a lot less stuffy than the other "Lelouch remains in Britannia and doesn't get Geass powers" story, though I'd probably make it even more loose.

One of the things I want to get across is that Lelouch's belief that what he's doing is completely for Nunnally's sake is both 1) not true, and 2)wouldn't be a good thing even if it was.

To be honest in the fanfic I'm planning on writing (at some point in time, hopefully XD) the main character (a former Black Knight who was also given a Geass but kept it secret) scoffs at Lelouch's plan because it's completely unrealistic to think that everything Britannia has done will be forgotten just because he is more hated than they are.

He'll also call out the Black Knights for betraying him and taking the word of a Britannian, one of the royal family, no less, over their own leader that has led them to victory after victory.

And then I'd scoff at your scoffing. XD

Seriously...I don't believe that's what Lelouch was thinking, nor was his plan ever supposed to bring a permanent peace to the world either, but more to the point...I'm not a fan of the idea of arbitrarily having an author self-insert jump into an already highly unrealistic story just to complain about how something is too unrealistic for his or her tastes. I can understand some people like to vent that way, but to me it's a very uninteresting creative approach, comparable to the concept of re-writing the first episode just to have Lelouch immediately die, simply because that would be far more realistic than the soldiers giving him time for rhetoric. Well, I guess it could be funny to see that as a punchline once.

You can certainly use such divergent changes as a springboard to a larger story with lots of added content, but by then I think it would be more interesting and challenging to create a completely new retelling of the fictional universe and its narrative from the ground up.

edited 31st Jul '14 8:40:16 PM by Madonis

I agree with you that having a Mary Sue call Lelouch out is sort of a lazy thing to do; I just think, even if we're to say that somehow hatred of a Nero-esqe Lelouch inspired some Golden Age, which the epilogue seems to assume is dawning, that still wouldn't inherently excuse or justify what he did. It's not even like a Madoka Rebellion thing where Homura's actions, From a Certain Point of View, made everyone involved's lives better (besides Kyubey but fuck him). Millions of people died and suffered because Lelouch decided to play mad Emperor; and the end result that's supposed to occur does not really seem to logically follow from what happened. There's no reason to believe that any new Britannian regime would be necessarily better than the previous two (keep in mind that Britannia now has global dominance; who would willingly divest themselves of it), and if it is, it'd be unrelated to Lelouch's actions. What Lelouch does, to me, strikes me as a profound narcissistic waste.

that was something the show covered as part of Lelouch's character development, that he had to realise that his actions had to be more than just for Nunnally. That putting her above all else was causing harm to many people.

One (practical) man's narcissistic waste is another (impractical) man's narcissistic treasure. It may fall short from an all too dry logical analysis as opposed to an idealistic, emotional one based on pure raw pathos in opposition to any formal logos, but I can think of several different ways to reply.

The epilogue indicates that things are getting better, but I'd say it's a stretch to assume this means a Golden Age will come forth. Just a better world, a tomorrow with endless possibilities given the hopelessly romantic nature of both the show and its heroic yet also villainous protagonist, but not necessarily a perfect one. There will be more struggles and conflicts, but Lelouch trusts that humanity is inherently good, so repeated successes and failures will be necessary for progress to take place. What the common hatred of Lelouch does is giving people some breathing room for civilized negotiations while simultaneously taking care of his own special psychological concerns, and applying an extreme version of the ends justifying the means: his most "evil" act leads to the most "good" for the time being. He also rejected the ideas of Schneizel and Charles in order to give people more free will his way. It's selfess yet also selfish of him, and fitting for a show where "right" and "wrong" are open to debate. Plus, if you want to get technical, Lelouch seemed to be ruling the world in the capacity of an absolute ruler who all citizens of all nations must blindly obey, but not by formally incorporating the rest of the countries into the old Britannian Imperial system. He actually took the time to dismantle it early in his reign and I doubt too many of the former nobles survived to think of restoring it.

edited 1st Aug '14 2:17:36 AM by Madonis

I tried making a fanfic. Failed epically in that I got writer's block right after the first chapter..almost two years ago. But overall the comments (all seven) I got were good.

Although if I could ever manage to resume it, I'd try to expand more on the Knights of the Round, like the significance of the positions 1-12 and why there are vacancies (in canon, spots 2, 5, 8 and 11 were empty).

The issue is the ending wants us to feel like Lelouch did an unambiguous good and the Black Knight et al should feel ashamed for doubting him. And I feel that's utter bullshit. There were an unlimited number of more, straightforward ways in which Lelouch could've brought about world peace. Lelouch did what he did out of a narcissistic desire to be hated as the biggest villain in world history because he believed he deserved it, and therefore abdicating his responsibility. And to me that's just a cruel, thoughtless thing to do. Homura has the same issue but the movie is very upfront about how profoundly fucked up she is.

EDIT: Britannia still has undisputed control of the world, and unless Lelouch in three months time executed a holocaust of Britannia's nobility they're still going to be the cornerstone of Britnnian political power. If not there'd be a cataclysmic Civil War.

edited 1st Aug '14 10:55:02 AM by Scherzo09

The whole show does want the audience to be highly sympathetic towards Lelouch and his end goals, despite his many sins, but nothing about the ending, or even the rest of the story, made me feel that meant he was always doing unambiguous good. Quite the opposite. If anything, the point was that good results can come out of even some admittedly evil methods, albeit at a high cost. Certain individuals with emotional biases can appreciate that as worthwhile, even though history will never officially acknowledge any of it. Besides, the Black Knights shouldn't be too ashamed for doubting him...only for how quickly they turned hostile and paranoid, which was a little extreme. Likewise, I don't think it's a matter of there being other more straightforward methods or not. Of course there were, tons of them, but what of it? People don't always pick the best solution to their problems and Lelouch isn't a normal person. "Straightforward" would never be his middle name (nor, more importantly, part of the series title). As an aside, Lelouch isn't a goody-two-shoes, but he's still better than movie Homura.The reality-warping trick she did has more in common with Charles and his Ragnarok Connection, since they're both permanently self-serving metaphysical solutions that completely eliminate free will. Lelouch's plan is self-serving as well, but to an objectively lesser degree, since it allows for human freedom after ZR.

Once again, it was Emperor Lelouch who had undisputed control of the world as a personal ruler, not Britannia as an Empire. I think that distinction is important. There could be a civil war later on, but I doubt it'll be an immediate concern. We already had a highly abbreviated Britannian internal conflict. Lelouch abolished all other noble titles, random aristocrats rose up in rebellion but were purged by Cyborg Orange, the entire royal court was brainwashed and died when the capital was bombed, the Knights of the Rounds mostly got punked by Suzaku, and Schneizel's faction merved with the UFN only to lose. Everyone's going to need time to lick their wounds. Britannians need a transitional period as much as anyone else.

edited 1st Aug '14 1:28:38 PM by Madonis

That's not really how the world works; you destroy all governmental and political infrastructure and replace it with a Cult of Personality, you're going to leave a tinder box when you die. There are immediately going to be rebellions and claimants to the Britannian throne. One only has to look at history to see how long unity over a common evil lasts; as the Wallies were crossing the Rhine in the West and the Soviets were crossing the Oder in the East, the Americans and Russians were already scheming over how to combat each other in the Post-War world. The Peace of Vienna following the Napoleonic War might be a better example, but that was a peace built on tyranny and despotism, and the further violent suppression of democratic and socialist movements throughout the 19th Century. Nature abhors a vacuum, and the idea that any regime following Lelouch would necessarily be more humane is beyond wishful thinking.

And saying Lelouch is better than Homura is laughable. I don't like how Homura treats Madoka's soveriegnty myself, but she never actively 'hurt' anyone. Lelouch imposed his will on millions through his tyranny that, sincere or not, resulted in thousands of deaths.

TL;DR: Zero Requiem only works in Geass because the show just bluntly tells us that it works, and does it because it thinks it's a fitting capstone to Lelouch's Magnificent Bastard persona, as well as a way to have him 'pay' for what he's done. But in reality it's him abdicating all responsibility for the world, his friends, and his sister. Fundamentally, my issue is that the show to the end wants us to believe that, despite everything he's done, Lelouch is unquestionably a good person. And to me that, and especially how that's executed, is really lame. It wants to have its cake and eat it too. A character that legitimately gets dirty, like Walter White or the direction Rock is headed in Black Lagoon, is far more interesting.

But eh, we're going to have to agree to disagree I guess. To me ZR was yet another bullshit plot element in a season full of them.

edited 1st Aug '14 1:28:10 PM by Scherzo09

Just in bulleted summation form:

• There were more straightforward means of Lelouch creating world peace, many of which did not entail him dying.
• His desire to pay for his sins is narcissistic and self-centered, and does not make up for them.
• He abandons his responsibilities and loved ones and places an undue burden upon Suzaku, who by necessity does not have the possibility of an out.
• His actions create political instability within Britannia that would be exploited after his death.
• He imposes his will through the (at least) thousands of deaths he causes.
• And finally the stability shown at the end simply doesn't follow from what happened before.

That's basically my say on it. I don't want to be combative, I just really don't like it as this positive thing that fixes everything. I'm not saying Lelouch 'wouldn't' do something as needlessly wasteful and elaborate, but I kind of wish the show held him to task for it more.

edited 1st Aug '14 1:59:36 PM by Scherzo09

Ah, but that's because you appear to think a character becoming "legitimately dirty" must be necessarily followed by a specific type of characterizations and set of cause-and-effect relationships. I'm a lot more flexible in that regard. Walter and Rock are both pretty interesting, yes, but they are part of different stories and universes with more of an intentional grounding in our own reality, all in all. Black Lagoon has over-the-top gun fights and chase sequences with action movie logic, but it's still much closer to a representation of our actual reality than Code Geass ever was.

Thus I already know that's not how the actual Planet Earth works, but it can certainly be how the non-existent Code Geass Earth does. Different worlds have different rules and standards. Just like an infinite number of fictional works do not follow the same kind of logic. Why? Because fiction cannot always be indiscriminately forced to respect the limits and patterns of history, economics, sociology or any other science (assuming, for the sake of argument, that your interpretations and descriptions can't be poked at or questioned from a rival school of thought, which is quite arguable, but I'm not interested in attempting that right now, lest we debate and nitpick over the historical record and political science theories rather than the show itself).

For me, the proposition of suddenly incorporating a set of ultra-realistic political, scientific or economic factors into Code Geass mid-way through, without changing anything before an arbitrary point in time, would be highly inconsistent and inappropriate, since it wouldn't match the existing unrealistic and over-the-top framework at all. That's why I'm in favor of wanting to rebuild it from the ground up and making all of the necessary changes as desired, via fanfics, but not much of a fan of abrupt modifications coming in out of nowhere just to change one aspect.

As for the matter of Zero Requiem, it's clearly not a realistic plan. Nobody is arguing that there is any concrete historical or political merit to it. But I am fairly serious about thinking it has some genuine thematic value, in a purely abstract and unrealistic context, provided one's own opinion of Lelouch isn't already overly negative for other reasons. Also, killing or hurting people isn't the only factor that determines how good or bad a person is, so yes...I can say that movie Homura strikes me as more anti-freedom and immature, even if Lelouch is more willing to do away with human lives and is fairly repugnant in that sub-category of morality.

MUCH LATER EDIT:

I couldn't post this in time, before the discussion moved on, but I'll add what I had written on the bullet points above:

•Lelouch chose his own means of creating world peace based on his battered mental and emotional state, unusual personality quirks and twisted ideals up to that point in time. The resulting plan also matches some of his previous behavior on thematic levels, such as his being a liar or actor who puts on masks, putting the ends before the means, and the use of Zero as a symbol of rebellion against authority.

•In addition, Lelouch's chosen form of punishment is based both on how he destroyed Euphemia's reputation as well as on his own initial belief that killers should be ready to be killed in turn.

•Suzaku was secretly seeking punishment by dying as a hero, not a normal life. After becoming disillusioned with his original path and its moral inhibitions, he was open to accepting what Lelouch offered, by finding a source of reconciliation in how they mutually understood their problems and punished each other in the end.

•Lelouch has finally realized that Nunnally does not need him anymore and can speak for herself. As a result of this, he is no longer so obssessed with her well-being.

•Negotiations between Britannia and the rest of the world will be handled by the people he left in positions of real or apparent power. In the short term, the already broken state of the noble class and general war exhaustion should prevent things from getting too hot, with reconstruction being the greatest priority.

•Lelouch often manipulated individual free wills and violated the right to life, but he was aware of these being bad things, not good acts in disguise. He also made an effort to oppose Charles and Schneizel, who cared even less than he did about those issues.

•The stability at the end of the show is not supposed to be a permanent end state. It's not Fukuyama's "End of History" but simply the last chapter of a fictional story.

edited 1st Aug '14 3:35:08 PM by Madonis

Okay so let's eliminate any real repercussions, which personally I feel violates Willing Suspension of Disbelief because we do expect things to logically follow from one another, but even with that out of the case; the whole thing seems to be an exercise in Lulu allowing himself to be as hated as believes he deserves to be, and then exit stage left. I don't see that as admirable or noble or really any kind of positive thing. I see that as him being weak and wanting to play one more trick on the world before he dies. And I think it's really insulting for the people who cared about him.

I dunno if I'd use 'evil' to describe ZR; more terms like dumb, egotistical, and wasteful. It's theatricality certainly is inline with who Lelouch is, but it betrays Lelouch someone who's willing to sacrifice every earthly relationship he has for some vague principle of how the world should work that he has in his head.

edited 1st Aug '14 2:16:23 PM by Scherzo09

And I think you kind of hit upon a more fundamental problem I have with Geass, which pretty much every fanfic I've read improves upon (probably unconciously) is that it lacks a sense of verisimilitude. This isn't the sense of 'true to real life' but in the sense that there is created a sense of 'being' for the world. Shows like Kill La Kill or Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann obviously aren't 'true to life' but they create worlds where the nonsense that goes on in them 'makes sense', or that you can smoothly transition from comedic beats to dramatic beats while still feeling like the same general rules (or lack of rules) apply. Same thing with TDK; the Nolan movies are silly and melodramatic as fuck but are executed in a way that meshes really with the 'gritty' aesthetic.

With Geass I feel it's just more schizophrenic in how it switches from silly things to serious things, and doesn't have that good of a thematic linking between them. The show on some level wants to be taken seriously, asking heady questions like "How far will a man go to achieve his goals" but doesn't really execute on that promise. Like I've said before I get why people like it the way it is because it's sort of an enjoyable trainwreck, but I look at the characters and see how they could be done in ways that are way more intrinsically compelling.

edited 1st Aug '14 2:49:37 PM by Scherzo09

Even prior to Lelouch's takeover, the world had essentially been divided into Brittania and the UFN. Following Lelouch's death, the UFN will almost certainly rally around Zero (a.k.a. Suzaku), while Brittania will rally around Schneizel (who's been brainwashed to obey Suzaku). So Lelouch didn't just unite the world in hatred against him; he also united them in gratitude to a pair of puppet regimes controlled by his best friend.

To Scherzo 09,

Not too surprisingly, I'd especially disagree with that last criticism more than any other single one you've ever made here. Which is fitting enough, considering it's also the most evidently subjective argument, since personal pet-peeves, preferences, tastes and expectations affect both how we perceive the state of a show and what we want it to be like.

Based on my own multiple viewings and many of these online discussions, I think Code Geass did have its own twisted sense of verisimilitude, a method to the madness, that works even if it might be one that turns you off. The state of "being" for the Code Geass world is a consistently very over-the-top and theatrical one, starting right from the first episode, where theatrics, unrealistic events and general coincidences are far too commonplace to list. Even tonally speaking, tragedy and comedy as well as tragicomedy regularly co-exist. If anything, breaking down the series episode by episode, scene by scene, would reveal that there is more of a methodology and thematic link than what you're implying.

In fact, if we're going to be talking about aesthetics here, then adding in all of the extremely colorful and larger-than-life character designs, voice acting, neo-medieval fashion sense, soundtrack and other romanticized elements, together with many in-jokes, would suggest that Code Geass isn't asking you to take it too seriously either. Lelouch is often too serious about everything, all the time, but the show turns this attitude against him, both for laughs and not. The question is whether or not you're willing to tune in or out when the show does some of the crazy things, or rather enjoy them for what they are, as sources of entertainment, while still being capable of caring for the more interesting parts.

The way that Gurren Lagann and Kill la Kill happen to work is quite different, but I don't think it's inherently superior at all. I reject the notion that one must either copy their way or get out. In fact, there were various moments towards the end of Kill la Kill in particular that rang rather hollow for me, even anti-climatic, so I could argue there were missteps and problematic aspects to them as well. But as I said, this is still subjective.

Not all the characters are equally compelling and I've already noticed you're a big fan of portrayals that are quite a bit closer to reality and to a fixed type of moral progresion, but I think there is something to Lelouch and Suzaku, for instance their emotional range, that makes them work quite well for the dual purposes of the show (to be entertaining and to be interesting), even compared to some of the casts found in better projects. I find it easier to deal with the flaws when there's at least some positives involved. I believe the real trainwrecks, enjoyable or not, tend to lack that factor and are too uninteresting for me to revisit.

edited 1st Aug '14 3:53:10 PM by Madonis

This something that has been debated lots of time here and elsewhere.

I have made my own opinion be heard on the above stuff before. Guess the saying here from me would be, why beat a dead horse around.

To change the topic. OZ the Reflection ended last month and a new series is coming soon. With it happening during the r2 timeline.

There's more info on the net about this. Check out animesuki.com for more info.

I'm still waiting for episode 3 of Akito the Exiled to come out. I want to see more "Julius Kingsley" and see if Suzaku and Akito will fight one another.

@ Scherzo09

Calling yourself Britannia sure, but wouldn't Eowynn uniting the Celts to kick Cesar out of Britain be an example of Genre Savvy, and given the fact this is a series armed with magic powers, wouldn't Eowynn have been armed with Geass?

Also, onto another subject. If gunpowder is not used for firearms in the series, would Newton's Third Law of Motion still be intact in the series if you decide to fire a KMF machine gun in outer space?

But then history goes on to happen exactly as it does OTL. It seems completely superfluous. Akito's worldbuilding even seems to forget that ATB does not equal Anno Domini, the Revolutionary Year given is based on 2017 ATB being A.D. 2017. Since the whole explanation was in supplementary material, and Akito has gone on to retcon other things like Euro Universe into the United Republics of Europa, I think it's safe to say Eowyn is a non-factor.

And obviously? The force of whatever is propelling the projectile down the tube is going to put an equal amount of force one the gun that fire it.

@Madonis: I don't really mean to shit on you or anything; I don't mean to say 'you're wrong' for liking Geass the way you do. It's I don't think it's intrinsicly that well executed a show, and I keep getting drawn back to it because I love a lot of the ideas behind it, but man...

But anyways, we'll just have to agree to disagree. On the note someone else said, is Oz of the Reflection any good? The Geass tie-in mangas seem to have a pretty spotty reputation.

What does "OTL" mean?

Shall we chalk it to in-universe mess-ups?

Also, can I send a PM to you?

What is ATB, anyway?

Our Timeline, it's an Alternate History term.

Ascension Throne Britannia; it's the dating system Geass uses. It, supposedly, starts from 55 BC, but as I said that's only in supplementary materials and Akito seems to ignore it.