Doctor Who

This is why PC works so much better as guidelines than rules. This is a great episode, with a diverse cast, all treated with respect and especially a ground-breaking performance delivered by Sophie Stone. It really doesn't matter in this case that the Black Dude Dies First, especially since he's still walking around.

You'll never score 100% on political correctness, not least because by the time you put together a perfect work one of the words you used will have become less acceptable. Aim for silver and you'll be fine.

The episode in the school - ?Caretaker. There was US internet backlash about the racism, and all the Brits went "Huh? What racism?"

The Doctor had called a truanting schoolkid a criminal. Kid HAPPENED to be black (accurate for that area of London, as there is a high non-white residency - if it had been a school in a Welsh village, and the only black kid was the truant, that is something else!)

...Do you know that people in the UK tend to profile kids based on their skin color as much as people in the US do?

For the most part, people of color in most of the western world tend to be socially and economically disadvantaged, which leads to crime. Which leads to them being labeled as criminals.

I don't like when people in the UK try to pretend that the UK doesn't have any race issues.

And mostly it's white people in the UK, go figure.

edited 4th Oct '15 3:32:50 PM by unnoun

x3 This So much of it. The logical conclusion of Black Dude Dies First is that you can not kill a black guy first if you don't have another black guy. And maybe not even then. I think that is bullshit. If you wanna kill of characters for your story, go ahead. Just make sure that in the end it evens out, you know? That you have every race/gender/sexual orientation/confession of faith/bla bla be the first to die equally on avarage. That is the reson why I can't understand the issue with this episode.

The problem. Is. Trends.

The problem is that there is an overwhelmingly large amount of media where this happens.

Nothing else.

God, I don't even have that much of a problem with this particular instance.

The increase in diversity is great. I think it probably all works out.

Can we let this go now?

edited 4th Oct '15 3:51:08 PM by unnoun

We have plenty of racial issues and nobody is denying that, but they don't come out in the exact same way as the US' issues do in the US, so it's both confusing and frustrating when we have Americans insisting on looking at our problems as if they're American problems.

As for racial profiling of kids, the police do it and there's a reason the Met is considered institutionally racist, but the public sentiment is very different from that in the US, we still have a big class divide over here and often that actually matters more, something that can often be forgotten by people from outside the UK.

Where has anyone in this thread mentioned their race? I mean I'll fully admit to being a white guy, but I've no idea what race the other posters are and it's pretty presumptive to assume that because someone disagrees with you they must be white.

Edit: Random thought, how often does the black guy die first in UK works of fiction? From the TV I can think of the problem is actually that minority characters just don't appear.

edited 4th Oct '15 4:09:53 PM by Silasw

I said mostly, and I'm not just talking about instances in this thread.

I'm sorry, though. You're right, it was presumptive.

And, yes, I know about the UK's issues with class. I've been there.

...And, like. I know that there are some slight differences between the US and UK.

I mean.

I remember, when I was in the UK, how The Black and White Minstrel Show was popular, and came on around when Doctor Who did, roughly, and I remember how. Uncomfortable. It made me feel.

Part of me thinks whether the difference between US and UK is that the US is more sensitive to these issues.

I remember feeling like I was the only person who felt something was a little fucked up when I was in the UK, in the US it often seems like there are more people who are willing to speak up about things.

Maybe it's related to the UK's class stuff, and how people prefer to keep their heads down. "Keep calm and carry on" as the meme goes.

I mean, I've lived in the U.S. for over ten years now and I'm just as skeptical that it doesn't have major class divide issues.

Hypothesis: that the US likes to pretend that it doesn't have any class issues the same way the UK likes to pretend it doesn't have any race issues.

edited 4th Oct '15 4:33:46 PM by unnoun

I think a lot of it ties back to how the British black population are generally descendent from willing immigrants (largely from the Caribbean where they were the descendants of slaves, but generally the folks who came over were rather separated from that issue), while in the US you're looking at the descendants of former slaves in large numbers.

The UK obviously does have race issues, but I think another part of it is the small number, 3% of the population (in 2011, it was 2% in 2001) is a lot smaller then the 13% that the US has

edited 4th Oct '15 4:42:49 PM by Silasw

I don't mean to deny there are any racial issues in the UK. It feels that Americans sometimes see racism in the UK where there isn't any.

I don't want to say anything more, as this is a Doctor Who thread.

Racism is a much more tender wound in the US, for sure.

... and then we reach the issue of the USA trying to make everyone else do what it has to do, often in the guise of protecting people's rights.

I could share amusing anecdotes of friends' reactions to being called African American, objecting to the second word, but I'd need to ask first.

Why are people acting like "white guy" and "black guy" were the only two options for the casting of the base leader? It's POC or non-POC, doesn't rule out Hispanic, Asian, Middle Eastern, or various other races that could have been used for that character.

And sure, immediately killing off other people of colour isn't the best form of represention either, but it at least won't be targeting someone with a prominent cultural history of being used as cannon fodder in white people's stories.

I think part of the problem of the casting is that many "first victims" are meant to be big, tough-looking guys to invoke The Worf Effect. Think the pirate in "Curse of the Black Spot", the security guard in "Closing Time," as well as the military men in the past two episodes. And perhaps as far as the casting directors are concerned, certain black actors tend to convey the desired image well, and they just aren't thinking of the racial connotations.

...Yeah, I can understand that.

That's basically what I feel like I should have said earlier.

Thing is I'm not sure I agree with your premiss. Are black people specifically more often killed off in white people stories then other ethnic minorities? I'm talking about in British media here, not American media.

Hispanic isn't even an ethnic grouping over here (Spanish people are white as far as we're concerned), we actually have a larger South Asian population then we do black population, and considering how badly we've been treating our Arab population killing off the Arab character is pretty iffy.

edited 5th Oct '15 3:12:08 AM by Silasw

...Actually, yeah, given how Asian characters have been treated in a lot of British media. Like, a lot of Sherlock Holmes stories, and, well, Talons of Weng-Chiang.

Hmm.

The War Doctor returns in Big Finish audios covering the Time War

The English have definitely dicked over a lot of different groups of people over the years.

And, yes, I am going to specify the English in this instance. They're the ones who made the land grab in the first place.

Witch's familiar overview.

"Sometimes you have to be heretical"

I appreciate that.

This thing about Cass is also neat.

Yeah our relationship with East Asia (as opposed to South Asia, which is difficult for other reasons) is another difficult one. East Asians are the only major ethnic group that I think actually is lacking is the episode (assuming we're counting all white groupings together). We've got a black guy, a middle eastern guy, and a south asian guy.

Considering that the commander's actor is by far the biggest name in the episode (he was even in the Nolan Batman films) I think killing him off near immediately was meant to shock the audience. Feels like a waste though.

Going to be posting some Doctor who stuff to my tumble today. After a two day long feminist discussion with a good friend of mine (who hates Moffat, and can provide great insight into their viewpoint) I've come to some conclusions.

With the Time War boxset, Unit Extinction, The River Song series and the Classic Doctors, New Monsters series it looks like it's time for me to finally jump into the world of Big Finish!

RIP Everyman's bank account

Yep, and it will definitely be worth it!

Huh. They actually cast a deaf actress to play a deaf character and a person who knows sign language as a person who knows sign language. That is pretty awesome. Especially since the only deaf actress I think I've ever actually seen on TV is Marlee Matlin.

It would be impractical to hire someone who doesn't know sign language to play someone who knows sign language.

I have seen the thing.

I agree Clara felt underserved. She'll probably have more to do next time but that's what my knee jerk reaction was