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*** Both entries even feature Muppets performing a rendition of [[Music/{{Nirvana}} "Smells Like Teen Spirit".]]
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Not ymmv


* TrueArtIsIncomprehensible: In-universe. The original opening number for the Christmas show (directed by a French choreographer that Gonzo hired) was... decidedly un-Muppet-like. Case A: it had a Muppet throwing ''glass'' Christmas ornaments directly at the audience.

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* QuestionableCasting: Some took issue with Whoopi Goldberg as God.



* WTHCastingAgency: Some took issue with Whoopi Goldberg as God.

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Removed: 346



* BrokenBase: Either this is one of the better of the made-for-TV Muppet movies to come about in the 2000s, or this is a blemish on the Muppets' integrity. The majority of Muppet Freaks really love this movie, feeling it did a better job capturing the original dynamics of the characters and their interplay, as well as maintaining the same sense of mayhem and chaos the Muppets' humor is known for; however, a VocalMinority of fans feel this movie has none of that, that the movie is [[TooBleakStoppedCaring dark,]] [[TrueArtIsAngsty trite,]] tries too hard to make the Muppets seem relevant and [[DarkerAndEdgier edgy]], and pushes the envelope ''way'' too far in how much adult humor the Muppets display.
** As time goes by, a strange reversal or softening up of opinion seems to be occurring. Many who once praised it as brilliant and just what the franchise needed think it hasn't aged well, while those who initially rejected it completely have come to admire that it kept the characters going when they were very much in danger of being forgotten.

to:

* BrokenBase: Either this is one of the better of the made-for-TV Muppet movies to come about in the 2000s, or this is a blemish on the Muppets' integrity. The majority of Muppet Freaks really love this movie, feeling it did a better job capturing the original dynamics of the characters and their interplay, as well as maintaining the same sense of mayhem and chaos the Muppets' humor is known for; however, a VocalMinority of fans feel this movie has none of that, that the movie is [[TooBleakStoppedCaring dark,]] [[TrueArtIsAngsty trite,]] too dark]], tries too hard to make the Muppets seem relevant and [[DarkerAndEdgier edgy]], and pushes the envelope ''way'' too far in how much adult humor the Muppets display.
**
display. As time goes by, a strange reversal or softening up of opinion seems to be occurring. Many who once praised it as brilliant and just what the franchise needed think it hasn't aged well, while those who initially rejected it completely have come to admire that it kept the characters going when they were very much in danger of being forgotten.
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* SurprisinglyImprovedSequel: Received a much better reception than other post-Film/MuppetsFromSpace productions (prior to 2011's ''Film/TheMuppets'').

to:

* SurprisinglyImprovedSequel: Received a much better reception than other post-Film/MuppetsFromSpace post-''Film/MuppetsFromSpace'' productions (prior to 2011's ''Film/TheMuppets'').''Film/{{The Muppets|2011}}'').

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* CrossesTheLineTwice: The fates of Kermit's friends in the alternate reality in which he was never born. On one hand, we see Gonzo as a depressed street performer shilling for a "dancing" brick, Miss Piggy as a lonely, depressed cat-lover, Fozzie as a pickpocket, Rizzo on ''Series/FearFactor'' about to be eaten alive, and [[Film/TheMuppetMovie Doc Hopper's French-Fried Frog Legs]] becoming a successful chain. All horrible, right? Then, we get stuff like Bunsen, Beaker and Robin as employees at Rachel Bitterman's nightclub, Scooter as a cage dancer at said nightclub, and The Electric Mayhem as river dancers, which is all just flat-out hilarious.

to:

* CrossesTheLineTwice: CrossesTheLineTwice:
**
The fates of Kermit's friends in the alternate reality in which he was never born. On one hand, we see Gonzo as a depressed street performer shilling for a "dancing" brick, Miss Piggy as a lonely, depressed cat-lover, Fozzie as a pickpocket, Rizzo on ''Series/FearFactor'' about to be eaten alive, and [[Film/TheMuppetMovie Doc Hopper's French-Fried Frog Legs]] becoming a successful chain. All horrible, right? Then, we get stuff like Bunsen, Beaker and Robin as employees at Rachel Bitterman's nightclub, Scooter as a cage dancer at said nightclub, and The Electric Mayhem as river dancers, which is all just flat-out hilarious.hilarious.
** Piggy as "Saltine" in ''Moulin Scrooge'' coughing from the stage fog during her entrance, which parodies [[spoiler: Satine's [[IncurableCoughOfDeath fatal tuberculosis]] in [[Film/MoulinRouge the original film.]]]]
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No longer a page.


* BrokenBase: Either this is one of the better of the made-for-TV Muppet movies to come about in the 2000s, or this is a blemish on the Muppets' integrity. The majority of Muppet Freaks really love this movie, feeling it did a better job capturing the original dynamics of the characters and their interplay, as well as maintaining the same sense of mayhem and chaos the Muppets' humor is known for; however, a VocalMinority of fans feel this movie has none of that, that the movie is [[TooBleakStoppedCaring dark,]] [[TrueArtIsAngsty trite,]] tries too hard to make the Muppets seem [[WereStillRelevantDammit relevant]] and [[DarkerAndEdgier edgy]], and pushes the envelope ''way'' too far in how much adult humor the Muppets display.

to:

* BrokenBase: Either this is one of the better of the made-for-TV Muppet movies to come about in the 2000s, or this is a blemish on the Muppets' integrity. The majority of Muppet Freaks really love this movie, feeling it did a better job capturing the original dynamics of the characters and their interplay, as well as maintaining the same sense of mayhem and chaos the Muppets' humor is known for; however, a VocalMinority of fans feel this movie has none of that, that the movie is [[TooBleakStoppedCaring dark,]] [[TrueArtIsAngsty trite,]] tries too hard to make the Muppets seem [[WereStillRelevantDammit relevant]] relevant and [[DarkerAndEdgier edgy]], and pushes the envelope ''way'' too far in how much adult humor the Muppets display.
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Christmas Carol, Treasure Island, Muppets Tonight, and Muppets From Space are all post Henson and well received.


* SurprisinglyImprovedSequel: Received a much better reception than other post-Creator/JimHenson productions (prior to 2011's ''Film/TheMuppets'').

to:

* SurprisinglyImprovedSequel: Received a much better reception than other post-Creator/JimHenson post-Film/MuppetsFromSpace productions (prior to 2011's ''Film/TheMuppets'').
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* BrokenBase: Either this is one of the better of the made-for-TV Muppet movies to come about in the 2000s, or this is a blemish on the Muppets' integrity. The majority of Muppet Freaks really love this movie, feeling it did a better job capturing the original dynamics of the characters and their interplay, as well as maintaining the same sense of mayhem and chaos the Muppets' humor is known for; however, a VocalMinority of fans feel this movie has none of that, that the movie is [[DarknessInducedAudienceApathy dark,]] [[TrueArtIsAngsty trite,]] tries too hard to make the Muppets seem [[WereStillRelevantDammit relevant]] and [[DarkerAndEdgier edgy]], and pushes the envelope ''way'' too far in how much adult humor the Muppets display.

to:

* BrokenBase: Either this is one of the better of the made-for-TV Muppet movies to come about in the 2000s, or this is a blemish on the Muppets' integrity. The majority of Muppet Freaks really love this movie, feeling it did a better job capturing the original dynamics of the characters and their interplay, as well as maintaining the same sense of mayhem and chaos the Muppets' humor is known for; however, a VocalMinority of fans feel this movie has none of that, that the movie is [[DarknessInducedAudienceApathy [[TooBleakStoppedCaring dark,]] [[TrueArtIsAngsty trite,]] tries too hard to make the Muppets seem [[WereStillRelevantDammit relevant]] and [[DarkerAndEdgier edgy]], and pushes the envelope ''way'' too far in how much adult humor the Muppets display.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* MemeticMutation: When Kermit is in Piggy's apartment in the [[ItsAWonderfulPlot alternate universe where he never existed]], the Twin Towers are visible through the window, in a scene taking place in 2003. This has therefore led to the popular and [[SarcasmMode entirely]] [[InsaneTrollLogic logical]] conclusion online that since the Twin Towers are still intact in a world where Kermit never existed, this means that in our universe [[CrossesTheLineTwice Kermit somehow caused 9/11.]]

to:

* MemeticMutation: When Kermit did 9/11[[labelnote:Explanation]]When Kermit is in Piggy's apartment in the [[ItsAWonderfulPlot alternate universe where he never existed]], the Twin Towers are visible through the window, in a scene taking place in 2003. This has therefore led to the popular and [[SarcasmMode entirely]] [[InsaneTrollLogic logical]] conclusion online that since the Twin Towers are still intact in a world where Kermit never existed, this means that in our universe [[CrossesTheLineTwice Kermit somehow caused 9/11.]]]][[/labelnote]]
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None


* CrossesTheLineTwice: The fates of Kermit's friends in the alternate reality in which he was never born. On one hand, we see Gonzo as a depressed street performer shilling for a "dancing" brick, Miss Piggy as a lonely, depressed cat-lover, and Fozzie as a pickpocket, Rizzo on ''Series/FearFactor'' about to be eaten alive, and [[Film/TheMuppetMovie Doc Hopper's French-Fried Frog Legs]] becoming a successful chain. All horrible, right? Then, we get stuff like Bunsen, Beaker and Robin as employees at Rachel Bitterman's nightclub, Scooter as a cage dancer at said nightclub, and The Electric Mayhem as river dancers, which is all just flat-out hilarious.

to:

* CrossesTheLineTwice: The fates of Kermit's friends in the alternate reality in which he was never born. On one hand, we see Gonzo as a depressed street performer shilling for a "dancing" brick, Miss Piggy as a lonely, depressed cat-lover, and Fozzie as a pickpocket, Rizzo on ''Series/FearFactor'' about to be eaten alive, and [[Film/TheMuppetMovie Doc Hopper's French-Fried Frog Legs]] becoming a successful chain. All horrible, right? Then, we get stuff like Bunsen, Beaker and Robin as employees at Rachel Bitterman's nightclub, Scooter as a cage dancer at said nightclub, and The Electric Mayhem as river dancers, which is all just flat-out hilarious.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* CrossesTheLineTwice: The fates of Kermit's friends in the alternate reality in which he was never born. On one hand, we see Gonzo as a depressed street performing shilling for a "dancing" brick, Miss Piggy as a lonely, depressed cat-lover, and Fozzie as a pickpocket, Rizzo on ''Series/FearFactor'' about to be eaten alive, and [[Film/TheMuppetMovie Doc Hopper's French-Fried Frog Legs]] becoming a successful chain. All horrible, right? Then, we get stuff like Bunsen, Beaker and Robin as employees at Rachel Bitterman's nightclub, Scooter as a cage dancer at said nightclub, and The Electric Mayhem as river dancers, which is all just flat-out hilarious.

to:

* CrossesTheLineTwice: The fates of Kermit's friends in the alternate reality in which he was never born. On one hand, we see Gonzo as a depressed street performing performer shilling for a "dancing" brick, Miss Piggy as a lonely, depressed cat-lover, and Fozzie as a pickpocket, Rizzo on ''Series/FearFactor'' about to be eaten alive, and [[Film/TheMuppetMovie Doc Hopper's French-Fried Frog Legs]] becoming a successful chain. All horrible, right? Then, we get stuff like Bunsen, Beaker and Robin as employees at Rachel Bitterman's nightclub, Scooter as a cage dancer at said nightclub, and The Electric Mayhem as river dancers, which is all just flat-out hilarious.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* CrossesTheLineTwice: The fates of Kermit's friends in the alternate reality in which he was never born. On one hand, we see Gonzo as a depressed street performing shilling for a "dancing" brick, Miss Piggy as a lonely, depressed cat-lover, and Fozzie as a pickpocket, Rizzo on ''Series/FearFactor'' about to be eaten alive, and [[Film/TheMuppetMovie Doc Hopper's French-Fried Frog Legs]] becoming a successful chain. All horrible, right? Then, we get stuff like Bunsen, Beaker and Robin as employees at Rachel Bitterman's nightclub, Scooter as a cage dancer at said nightclub, and The Electric Mayhem as river dancers, which is all just flat-out hilarious.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Let's see now: the Muppets have to save their theater from an evil businessman who wants to tear it down, and momentarily lose everything until a last-minute victory. [[Film/TheMuppets2011 Does that premise sound familiar to you?]]

to:

** Let's see now: the Muppets have to save their theater from an evil businessman business mogul who wants to tear it down, and momentarily lose everything until a last-minute victory. [[Film/TheMuppets2011 Does that premise sound familiar to you?]]
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None

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** Let's see now: the Muppets have to save their theater from an evil businessman who wants to tear it down, and momentarily lose everything until a last-minute victory. [[Film/TheMuppets2011 Does that premise sound familiar to you?]]
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None


* MemeticMutation: When Kermit is in Piggy's apartment in the [[ItsAWonderfulLifePlot alternate universe where he never existed]], the Twin Towers are visible through the window, in a scene taking place in 2003. This has therefore led to the popular and [[SarcasmMode entirely]] [[InsaneTrollLogic logical]] conclusion online that since the Twin Towers are still intact in a world where Kermit never existed, this means that in our universe [[CrossesTheLineTwice Kermit somehow caused 9/11.]]

to:

* MemeticMutation: When Kermit is in Piggy's apartment in the [[ItsAWonderfulLifePlot [[ItsAWonderfulPlot alternate universe where he never existed]], the Twin Towers are visible through the window, in a scene taking place in 2003. This has therefore led to the popular and [[SarcasmMode entirely]] [[InsaneTrollLogic logical]] conclusion online that since the Twin Towers are still intact in a world where Kermit never existed, this means that in our universe [[CrossesTheLineTwice Kermit somehow caused 9/11.]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* MemeticMutation: When Kermit is in Piggy's apartment in the [[ItsAWonderfulLifePlot alternate universe where he never existed]], the Twin Towers are visible through the window, in a scene taking place in 2003. This has therefore led to the popular and [[SarcasmMode entirely]] [[InsaneTrollLogic logical]] conclusion online that since the Twin Towers are still intact in a world where Kermit never existed, this means that in our universe [[CrossesTheLineTwice Kermit somehow caused 9/11.]]

Added: 181

Changed: 666

Removed: 131

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* FridgeHorror:
** In the world without Kermit, Rowlf is not mentioned or seen at all. Now take a minute to think about what happens to stray dogs.

to:

* FridgeHorror:
**
FridgeHorror: In the world without Kermit, Rowlf is not mentioned or seen at all. Now take a minute to think about what happens to stray dogs.



* NauseaFuel[=/=]NightmareFuel: In the alternate reality, Rizzo has one of the worst fates; he's in ''Series/FearFactor'' as one of the challenges, where he's locked in a cage and the contestants have to ''eat him alive''. And he didn't even know about it.
** There's also the revelation that Doc Hopper's French Fried Frogs' Legs apparently prospered without Kermit's interference, which almost certainly means millions more "frogs on tiny crutches".

to:

* NauseaFuel[=/=]NightmareFuel: NauseaFuel[=/=]NightmareFuel:
**
In the alternate reality, Rizzo has one of the worst fates; he's in ''Series/FearFactor'' as one of the challenges, where he's locked in a cage and the contestants have to ''eat him alive''. And he didn't even know about it.
** There's also the The revelation that Doc Hopper's French Fried Frogs' Legs apparently prospered without Kermit's interference, which almost certainly means millions more "frogs on tiny crutches".
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None

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* {{Narm}}: Kermit repeatedly shouting "I wish I'd never been born!" While it does its job in driving the point across, Kermit acts like a kid throwing a tantrum doing it.
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** There's also the revelation that Doc Hopper's French Fried Frogs' Legs apparently prospered without Kermit's interference, which almost certainly means millions more "frogs on tiny crutches".
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:


** In one shot of the timeline without Kermit, the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center can still be seen standing in 2002! Kermit somehow must have triggered 9/11.
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None


* WhatTheHellCastingAgency: Some took issue with Whoopi Goldberg as God.

to:

* WhatTheHellCastingAgency: WTHCastingAgency: Some took issue with Whoopi Goldberg as God.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* NauseaFuel[=/=]NightmareFuel: In the alternate reality, Rizzo has one of the worst fates; he's in ''FearFactor'' as one of the challenges, where he's locked in a cage and the contestants have to ''eat him alive''. And he didn't even know about it.

to:

* NauseaFuel[=/=]NightmareFuel: In the alternate reality, Rizzo has one of the worst fates; he's in ''FearFactor'' ''Series/FearFactor'' as one of the challenges, where he's locked in a cage and the contestants have to ''eat him alive''. And he didn't even know about it.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Pepe's vacation dream of living on a beach "shaking his bon-bons with Creator/RickyMartin, okay" is [[HoYay ten times funnier]] since Ricky came out.

to:

** Pepe's vacation dream of living on a beach "shaking his bon-bons with Creator/RickyMartin, Music/RickyMartin, okay" is [[HoYay ten times funnier]] since Ricky came out.

Added: 4

Changed: 49

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* BrokenBase: Either this is one of the better of the made-for-TV Muppet movies to come about in the 2000s, or this is a blemish on the Muppets' integrity. The majority of Muppet Freaks really love this movie, feeling it did a better job capturing the original dynamics of the characters and their interplay, as well as maintaining the same sense of mayhem and chaos the Muppets' humor is known for; however, a VocalMinority of fans feel this movie has none of that, that the movie is [[DarknessInducedAudienceApathy dark,]] [[TrueArtIsAngsty trite,]] tries too hard to make the Muppets seem [[WereStillRelevantDammit relevant]] and [[DarkerAndEdgier edgy]], and pushes the envelope ''way'' too far in how much adult humor the Muppets partake it.

to:

* BrokenBase: Either this is one of the better of the made-for-TV Muppet movies to come about in the 2000s, or this is a blemish on the Muppets' integrity. The majority of Muppet Freaks really love this movie, feeling it did a better job capturing the original dynamics of the characters and their interplay, as well as maintaining the same sense of mayhem and chaos the Muppets' humor is known for; however, a VocalMinority of fans feel this movie has none of that, that the movie is [[DarknessInducedAudienceApathy dark,]] [[TrueArtIsAngsty trite,]] tries too hard to make the Muppets seem [[WereStillRelevantDammit relevant]] and [[DarkerAndEdgier edgy]], and pushes the envelope ''way'' too far in how much adult humor the Muppets partake it.display.



** Pepe's vacation dream of living on a beach "shaking his bon-bons with RickyMartin, okay" is [[HoYay ten times funnier]] nowadays after Ricky came out.

to:

** Pepe's vacation dream of living on a beach "shaking his bon-bons with RickyMartin, Creator/RickyMartin, okay" is [[HoYay ten times funnier]] nowadays after since Ricky came out.



* TrueArtIsIncomprehensible: The original opening number for the Christmas show (directed by a French choreographer that Gonzo hired) was... decidedly un-Muppet-like. Case A: it had a Muppet throwing ''glass'' Christmas ornaments directly at the audience.

to:

* TrueArtIsIncomprehensible: In-universe. The original opening number for the Christmas show (directed by a French choreographer that Gonzo hired) was... decidedly un-Muppet-like. Case A: it had a Muppet throwing ''glass'' Christmas ornaments directly at the audience.



* TheWoobie: Fozzie in the real world, Gonzo in the alternate reality.

to:

* TheWoobie: Fozzie in the real world, Gonzo in the alternate reality.reality.
----

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* FridgeHorror: In the world without Kermit, Rowlf is not mentioned or seen at all. Now take a minute to think about what happens to stray dogs.

to:

* FridgeHorror: FridgeHorror:
**
In the world without Kermit, Rowlf is not mentioned or seen at all. Now take a minute to think about what happens to stray dogs.



* HilariousInHindsight: Pepe's vacation dream of living on a beach "shaking his bon-bons with RickyMartin, okay" is [[HoYay ten times funnier]] nowadays after Ricky came out.

to:

* HilariousInHindsight: HilariousInHindsight:
**
Pepe's vacation dream of living on a beach "shaking his bon-bons with RickyMartin, okay" is [[HoYay ten times funnier]] nowadays after Ricky came out.



* {{Squick}}: Pepe's methods of sucking up to Bitterman are a little disturbing, to say the least.

to:

* {{Squick}}: {{Squick}}:
**
Pepe's methods of sucking up to Bitterman are a little disturbing, to say the least.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Complaining barely related to this film - Septimus says its okay to zap.


** The Boss tells Daniel that he's "really lucky ''WesternAnimation/{{SpongeBob|SquarePants}}'' isn't on right now." Given the show's [[SeasonalRot decline in quality in the years since this movie aired]], its [[AdoredByTheNetwork overexposure on Nickelodeon]], and the network subsequently cutting back on [=SpongeBob=] reruns by TheNewTens, many viewers ARE lucky ''[=SpongeBob=]'''s not on.

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