History Headscratchers / Monster

*** Adding to that, it was never really Tenma's responsibility in the first place to STOP Johan, other than in a moral/ethical sense (and he has more than fulfilled his moral obligation). He only took on that responsibility when it became clear the ''police didn't believe and would not believe him''. Lunge intially took Tenma's claim that 'the blonde kid I saved 9 years ago who escaped without a trace came back and killed my patient, with similar circumstances as three murders that benefited my rise to Chief of Surgery nine years ago, you gotta believe me' about as seriously as any normal person would. Tenma decided he needed to take Johan out because he brought him back to life, but also because the police decided to try and pin Tnema down as the murderer, rather than chase after a (admittedly questionable) lead. He wanted to clear his name and stop Johan from killing further. He only decide he had to kill Johan because he didn't think there was any other way to stop him when the authorities weren't on his side. Once they believed him and had Johan, his hands were clean. It should never have been his job to really kill Johan in the first place. It was an act of desperation to stop someone when justice failed. Once it succeeded, Tenma is free of the burden that should never have been his, and it's up to the police to do their job (and Dr. Tenma, his, once again)

*** Another fact to prove that Johan cares for his sister is that he never actually tries to kill her, even though his plan of committing the Perfect Suicide entails eliminating everyone who knows anything about his past. Note: this doesn't stop him from putting her through some nightmarish situations: killing the foster parents who raised her, leaving her with a loaded revolver to kill herself with after she [=BSODs=].

*** Another fact to prove that Johan cares for his sister is that he never actually tries to kill her, even though his plan of committing the Perfect Suicide entails eliminating everyone who knows anything about his past. Note: this doesn't stop him from putting her through some nightmarish situations: killing the foster parents who raised her, allowing his henchman Roberto free rein to finish her off, leaving her with a loaded revolver to kill herself with after she [=BSODs=].

* If The Baby is such a big (or should I say small) racist, then why did he choose a song by a multiracial group (The Ronettes) as his theme song?

*** So, like gypsies were in Spain?

** Don't forget...Tenma STOLE. A.[[ArsonMurderandJaywalkingCOAT]].

** Don't forget...Tenma [[ArsonMurderandJaywalkingSTOLE A COAT]].

*** OP here. The explanation below answers the question, but I wanted to say that by the time Wim's life was in danger, killing Johan would've been justifiable homicide from a legal standpoint. The situation is in no way comparable to Nina shooting Johan as a child. Character development or no, if Nina convinced Tenma to put his gun down, and an innocent child died because of it, that wouldn't have done any favors for Tenma's conscience either. Yelling for both of them to stop in the original translation the only thing that makes sense here. (Note: I watched the English dub of the anime. It could be an adaption mistake exclusive to that version of the story.)

*** OP here. The explanation below answers the question, but I wanted to say that by the time Wim's life was in danger, killing Johan would've been justifiable homicide from a legal standpoint. The situation is in no way comparable to Nina shooting Johan as a child. Character development or no, if Nina convinced Tenma to put his gun down, and an innocent child died because of it, she would've done no favors for his conscience. Yelling for both of them to stop in the original translation the only thing that makes sense here. (Note: I watched the English dub of the anime. It could be an adaption mistake exclusive to that version of the story.)

* Tenma never uses a fake name at any point while investigating on the run. Why is this? Even if it was meant to show something about the character (e.g., Tenma has a hard time being anything other than himself), it's still baffling from a practical standpoint.

*** OP here. The explanation below answers the question, but I wanted to say that by the time Wim's life was in danger, killing Johan would've been justifiable homicide from a legal standpoint. The situation is in no way comparable to Nina shooting Johan as a child. Character development or no, if Nina convinced Tenma to put his gun down, and an innocent child died because of it, she would've done no favors for his conscience. Yelling for both of them to stop in the original translation the only thing that makes sense here. (NOTE: I watched the English dub of the anime. It could be a mistake exclusive to that version.)

*** OP here. The explanation below answers the question, but I wanted to say that by the time Wim's life was in danger, killing Johan would've been justifiable homicide from a legal standpoint. The situation is in no way comparable to Nina shooting Johan as a child. Character development or no, if Nina convinced Tenma to put his gun down, and an innocent child died because of it, she would've done no favors for his conscience. Yelling for both of them to stop is the only thing that makes sense here.

[[folder:Was Dr. Heinemann really such a jerkass?]]
* It certainly seemed that he was, but [[http://forum.naruto.viz.com/showthread.php?t=99888 check out what this guy wrote.]](preserved in case link breaks)
-->'''mrsticky005''': Dr. Heinemann is an interesting character in the awesome sauce series that is Monster. In a manga rich with back stories, motives, character development and personality Dr Heinemann is deceptively simple.\\
But is there perhaps more than meets the eye to the Director of Eisler Memorial Hospital? \\
Because we see the world of Monster through Dr. Tenma's eyes we have a very biased view of Dr. Heinemann. He is after all Dr. Tenma's superior and it's not too difficult to dislike your boss (or so I heard) and since Dr. Tenma is phenomenally likeable (almost or perhaps to the point of he's so likeable that it makes you sick) and Dr. Heinemann becomes antagonistic to Dr. Tenma while lacking the wicked charm of the Monster it makes him phenomenally unlikeable. At first glance Dr. Heinemann is a money grubber who's according to many viewers and Dr. Tenma himself is like a certain John Cusack movie namely one called "Better off dead".\\
But Dr. Heinemann may not be as bad as we think. Actually it's quite possible that he has a heart of gold like Dr. Tenma except without a little thing called naivety. You see Dr. Heinemann is misconstrued by almost everyone (especially Dr. Tenma) as being a doctor just for the pay check. While it is possible that this may be true there is evidence to the contrary. Dr. Tenma vs Dr. Heinemann is not actually a moral vs immoral battle but rather a debate of when we must make the moral sacrifices: now or later. Dr. Heinemann makes the sacrifices now and Dr. Tenma makes them later. \\
Dr. Tenma's philosophy is that doctors should save lives. Which sounds pretty basic and true. After all that is essence their job.\\
However Dr. Heinemann sees the doctor's job as "to progress as medical scholars". Taken in the wrong light this sounds as if Dr. Heinemann only cares about the prestige and status of being a doctor. Especially when you compare such statements with Dr. Heinemann's interest in Mayor Roddecker and his money.\\
But a question we ought to ask is why is Dr. Heinemann so interested in more money for the hospital? Sure greed would seem to be the obvious factor but Dr. Heinemann is already living quite well. He certainly does not need more money and he seems rather content with his lifestyle. I think if Dr. Heinemann had retired as far as personal gains go he would be satisfied. Yet why does he want more money? And why does he want to progress as a medical scholar? The answer may surprise you and perhaps Dr. Tenma too because like Dr. Tenma. Dr. Heinemann wants to save lives.\\
With more money and more knowledge more lives can be saved. While the Heinemann philosophy of "not all lives are equal" may sound rather cruel it is in a way more honest than Dr. Tenma's "all lives are equal." Think about it.\\
Dr. Tenma had to choose between saving the life of either a young boy or the mayor. Dr. Tenma chose the mayor.\\
However, if Dr. Tenma's philosophy is true then letting the mayor die and the boy live is equally as bad (or as good) as the opposite: letting the boy die and the mayor live.\\
After all, aren't their lives equal? Dr. Heinemann's view is actually less biased. Instead of "doing what feels right" which is Dr. Tenma's approach, Dr. Heinemann saves whoever is more advantageous to save. It may sound unfair, but the reality is that saving a mayor who can give funding to the hospital is in the long run a better move than saving a boy with no parents. I said before Dr. Tenma makes the sacrifices later. Well here's how.\\
By not saving the mayor, the hospital does not get the funds. Without those funds the hospital does not improve. Without improvement the hospital can't save as many lives as it can with the improvement.\\
It's basic economics. Better capital equals better results.\\
Saving the boy now instead of the mayor means letting boys that come to the hospital later will have to die due to the lack of funding. Now am I saying Dr. Tenma was wrong in his decision to save the boy? Not at all.\\
Yet I don't think it's as simple as Heinemann bad Tenma good.\\
Does this mean that Dr. Heinemann is a poorly constructed character? I would be tempted to say yes but at the same time I have to strongly disagree. Dr. Heinemann was clearly meant to be disliked. We are meant to see him as a money grubber and we are meant to think that he should die.\\
But then when we stop to think for a moment and ask why is he such a bad guy we may find that the answer is not so simple. It's important to note that Dr. Heinemann is old. That may be rather obvious and not worth mentioning but as the saying goes "with age comes experience." \\
How do we know that Dr. Heinemann has not gone through the same experience as Dr. Tenma. Maybe Dr. Heinemann has seen how cruel the world can be and that's how he formed his philosophy of "progressing as a medical scholar".\\
Upon closer inspection Dr. Heinemann may not be the monster we make him out to be. Actually it may very well be that the real monster here is the one who wished him dead:\\
Dr. Kenzo Tenma.
** I want to think that we're meant to see him as simply corrupt so Tenma's decision to save Johan would be justified, since making his choice seem cut and dry makes for a beautiful setup for the later {{Deconstruction}} of it, as it makes the notion that Tenma may have been wrong all the more shocking. But now I'm not so sure. In fact, maybe the revelation that Johan's a serial killer is supposed to make us consider that maybe Heinemann had a point in that some people contribute more to society than others (i.e. the mayor). (However this seems to be undermined by the construction worker/opera singer situation. It's never said that the opera singer made a donation, but if he did, I don't see how the services a construction worker offers on a daily basis is any less useful to society than a one time donation to a hospital.) Then again, maybe Heinemann is a reflection of the cruel and ruthless reality than Johan sees-lives have no inherent value, and the value people put on it varies because people are just selfish [[HumansAreBastards bastards]] like Heinemann. Boy there are a lot different interpretations...
** Yes, Heinemann's (and Eva's) view on human life reflects Johann's- it's the big moral dilemma of the series, after all, whether human lives are really equal, and Eisler Memorial's little political games set this up nicely. Although that guy makes a fair point about Heinemann wanting more funding to develop the hospital, nothing excuses his later treatment of Tenma (exploiting and publicly humiliating him). With Tenma being the best doctor on their staff, I can't see how further antagonizing him and forcing him to work too many hours could possibly help save more people's lives. He clearly did that out of malice and for the sake of getting back at Tenma. The last line in that forum post also comes as a bit of a surprise- it's not very abnormal to wish someone who's been such a jerk to you dead, especially since Tenma didn't really mean it, it was something he let slip out while in a state of extreme anger. Johann still rubbes it into his face when he acts out his wish and later tells him about it, though.
** OP here: It also occurred to me that Heinemann really is a hypocrite. He goes on about doctors being scholars...and then proceeds to cancel Tenma's research (''which is nearly finished'') so that Tenma could write a manuscript for a convention he's going to. In the manga, this is elaborated upon: He's planning to propose a medical care network "brought by the new electronics media"...which sounds like Heinemann wants to use computers to ease communication among hospitals in Europe. (I was kinda perplexed by this, but I did a little research and it could be possible that Heinemann was inspired by [[http://www.livinginternet.com/i/ii_nsfnet.htm NSFNET]], which was created in 1985-a year prior to when the series starts.) While this would certainly be beneficial in the long run, Tenma's current research could have a more immediate effect if successful. Thus, from a logical standpoint, it would be best for both projects to be completed if the greatest number of lives are to be saved. So if Heinemann really cared about saving lives, he would write the manuscript himself. The only reasons that he would possibly want Tenma to do it are laziness and to make himself look good by putting his name on the work of a better doctor. Plus, in regards to getting funding for the hospital, there has to be other, less ruthless ways of going about it. (Fundraiser, anyone?) Thus, it would seem that Heinemann favors the rich and famous not only for their money, but to gain power and fame as well. In light of that, Tenma probably agrees with the notion of getting more funding for the hospital, but he also thinks that the ends don't justify the means. And yeah, I completely agree with you when it comes to the last line of that forum post.[[/folder]]

** [[Tropers/EricDVH I]] don't think he was even lashing out at anyone, nor even doing a ForTheEvulz thing, but was instead totally devoid of purpose or motivation. The “line of ants” simile Nina used sums him up for me, as he's basically ambivalent to all of humanity, including himself, but (possibly for ICanNotSelfTerminate reasons) he just sort of coasts along in a rudderless fashion. All of the horrible things he does do seem to be carefully premeditated in a master plan to cause as much suffering as he can get away with before somebody plugs him, but it's just so effortlessly natural for him that it doesn't even register as a fulfilling pursuit, just a way to pass the time. He's about like a brilliant but bored ''[[TheSims Sims]]'' or ''VideoGame/DwarfFortress'' player.

*** It may be genetic. In Another Monster, we get an account that the twins mother could do a perfect imitation of any voice to the point of fooling the secret police.

** This troper just thinks he's seriously not that physically strong. If you want him to pwn somebody physically, or beat him to death, that's not his forte at all. He's a slender wandering {{bishonen}} in a fandom not known for inexplicable martial arts skillz.

** I believe Johan CAN do physical harm, perhaps as much as your average person, but that is not fitting with his methods at all. He doesn't need to do that. He assists in bringing what he feels is the ultimate defeat, [[NietzscheWannabe by driving people to mentally realize the very worthlessness of their existence]], [[DrivenToSuicide and so they kill themselves.]] I think the act of physically harming someone with his own two hands, is, in a bizarre way, more intimate than Johan can ever be. Guns, mentally crushing someone and driving them to kill themselves, keeps a distance between himself and the victim, which is how he likes it.

** Maybe Roberto was trying to save ammunition, considering how many shots were fired in their little duel, he may have had few left in his gun, he has already beaten Lunge up quite badly, and theres an entire town full of scared and angry people that have ALL recently been given guns of their own, he still wanted to protect Johan (as seen when he shoots Franz) so it may have been a survival priorities thing.

** It's suggested that the hypnotic trance had her to relive a psychotic episode so when the trance ended she stopped reliving it. But yeah, this is a bit of hollywood hypnotism. The memory alone pushed to the forefront of her mind should drive her somewhat out of character.

* Even though Anna/Nina was the one who actually went through the "seminar", why is Johan the AxCrazy one? Is it just because Bonaparta told her to "forget" before she ran home? And if so, then how did she remember long enough to tell Johan, in enough detail that he could actually take the 'memories' for his own? Was it the murder of the Lieberts and the resulting amnesia that actually made Anna forget? And if so, then why was ''Johan'' the one acting like a textbook LeEnfantTerrible?

** Speaking of which, does anyone know if those tears of Johan's were actually ''geniune'' or just a show put on for the media? Cuz that's something that's been bugging me.

*** Another fact to prove that Johan cares for his sister is that he never actually tries to kill her, even though his plan of committing the Perfect Suicide entails eliminating everyone who knows anything about his past. Note: this doesn't stop him from putting her through some nightmarish situations: killing the foster parents who raised her, allowing his henchman Roberto free rein to finish her off, leaving her with a loaded revolver to kill herself with after she BSODs.

*** [[UsedToBeASweetKid Once they're sweet nature kids]], but turned [[CreepyChild creepy]] and [[AxCrazy insane]] because of being effected by secret military experiments.

*** They're [[VillainousCrossdresser evil crossdressers]].

* I've seen it written here that the idea behind Johan threatening Wim was that it was Johan's final gambit to corrupt Tenma, forcing him to admit that not all lives are equal. But how would that have been different from Tenma's confrontations with Roberto and Christoph? Tenma shooting Johan to save Wim is no different from Tenma shooting Roberto to save Schuwald and himself or Tenma shooting Kristof to save Eva and himself. By this logic, shooting/killing in self-defense corrupts you. Yet the series doesn't seem to treat Tenma as corrupted after he shot Roberto (even before he was revealed to be alive), and of course, he ended up saving Christoph so that particular situation is rather moot. So what makes Johan's SadisticChoice situation special? Sure, if the situation had remained a case of murdering or not murdering instead of becoming a matter of self-defense, then I could see it as a case of Johan trying to corrupt Tenma. But it didn't, so how, exactly, would Tenma have been corrupted? Even if you argue that Tenma ''was'' corrupted after he shot Roberto, how would Johan's scenario make things worse?

** Maybe he poisoned all of them. We didn't see anyone else taking the candy, after all. He could've used a syringe to put the poison in the candy, which is readily available in any hospital. Now, as to how he did all of this without getting caught and without opening the bag...uh, AWizardDidIt? EDIT: After looking back, I think it could have been possible that Heinemann and the other two doctors came back for seconds and Johan predicted correctly that they would. Still requires some suspension of disbelief, though.

** In ''Another Monster'' Lunge said that he thought Nina was killed with the rest of the Fortners. It was only when he heard about Nina being in the hospital after the library incident that he realized that she was alive, so that explains why she was off the hook for so long. In regards to the fact that they return to being "normal citizens" instead of being witnesses, there wasn't much Tenma or Nina could do, as two of the policemen were being blackmailed by Johan, and people would believe their word over Tenma and Nina's. What does bug me, however, is that Nina doesn't even try to cooperate with Tenma. She just runs off before he comes back. Nor does she try to come forward at any time to try to clear Tenma's name. Of course, [[CassandraTruth the police probably would have thought she was crazy anyway,]] and she seemed more focused on [[{{Revenge}} killing Johan]] than anything else...

** As for Tenma refusing to see Reichwein, he was likely just protecting him. (I also want to point out here that the only times Reichwein was shown requesting to see Tenma were when he was initially arrested and ''after'' he confessed, not before he confessed. Still, I suppose that wouldn't have kept him from trying to contact him before he made the decision to confess. ...At least I don't ''think'' it would. Not entirely sure about this.) As you said, Roberto was aware that Tenma trusts Reichwein, and thus Tenma might have thought that Roberto would anticipate turning to him. Therefore, whatever plan Reichwein would have come up with (most likely, it would involve hiding her, since that's all he really could do) would have likely been thwarted, and there was no guarantee that another attempt wouldn't be made on Reichwein's life if Roberto had to confront him to get to Eva. So he decided to do what he thought Roberto wouldn't expect: escape. [[OutGambitted Which was what Roberto and Johan wanted him to do if you buy the "it was all a plan to get Tenma to break out of jail" theory.]]

** (Same [[Troper/{{Angewomon}} troper]] who posted the JBM here.) True, but Tenma had a different reason to shoot after Nina came: Wim. Before Nina came, The only reason Tenma would have to shoot Johan would be to carry out on his plans to kill him, not protecting an innocent. But perhaps the fact that he let Nina talk to Johan instead of shooting him outright shows just how split he was on the decision. He could have just ignored her. *shrugs* I mean, deep down I don't think Tenma really ''wanted'' to kill Johan. He just felt as if he had no choice but to do so in order to stop Johan from murdering people. Personally, I think Nina's willingness to forgive Johan was what convinced Tenma that Johan had a shred of humanity left in him. ...Does that make any sense at all? XD
** I just watched the scene again subbed just for the heck of it. (Side note: Japanese Johan sounds creepier than English Johan. And English Johan is pretty damn creepy.) While he does pull the trigger back a little, he ''still'' hesitates a bit before Nina finds him. So I guess it wasn't as clear cut as I thought.

* I've seen it written here that the idea behind Johan threatening Wim was that it was Johan's final gambit to corrupt Tenma, forcing him to admit that not all lives are equal. But how would that have been different from Tenma's confrontations with Roberto and Kristof? Tenma shooting Johan to save Wim is no different from Tenma shooting Roberto to save Schuwald and himself or Tenma shooting Kristof to save Eva and himself. By this logic, shooting/killing in self-defense corrupts you. Yet the series doesn't seem to treat Tenma as corrupted after he shot Roberto (even before he was revealed to be alive), and of course, he ended up saving Kristof so that particular situation is rather moot. So what makes Johan's SadisticChoice situation special? Sure, if the situation had remained a case of murdering or not murdering instead of becoming a matter of self-defense, then I could see it as a case of Johan trying to corrupt Tenma. But it didn't, so how, exactly, would Tenma have been corrupted? Even if you argue that Tenma ''was'' corrupted after he shot Roberto, how would Johan's scenario make things worse?

* In one episode we see a student trying to interprete a poem about the arrival of a mysterious "Thursday's Boy" because of whom books will be burned. For the good part of this episode we are led to believe that this "Thursday's Boy" is a guy who reads to Schubert on Thursdays, and that he is in fact Johan (supported by Lotte's description of said guy as blond and beautiful), only to find out that Johan reads on Fridays and probably forget about the poem whatsoever. But then Schubert's book donation ceremony came, and what happened there matched the prediction perfectly. So... what's up with that? Was this poem mentioned just for the sake of {{Foreshadowing}} and nothing more? Or was it an actual prophecy about Johan, and if so, why was it incorrect (since in that case Johan would be the "Friday's Boy")? If it's the latter, it further establishes Johan as some sort of mythical figure rather than just a murderous sociopath.

* In one episode we see a student trying to interprete a poem about the arrival of a mysterious "Thursday's Boy" because of whom books will be burned. For the good part of this episode we are led to believe that this "Thursday's Boy" is a guy who reads to Schubert on Thursdays, and that he is in fact Johan (supported by Lotte's description of said guy as blonde and beautiful), only to find out that Johan reads on Fridays and probably forget about the poem whatsoever. But then Schubert's book donation ceremony came, and what happened there matched the prediction perfectly. So... what's up with that? Was this poem mentioned just for the sake of {{Foreshadowing}} and nothing more? Or was it an actual prophecy about Johan, and if so, why was it incorrect (since in that case Johan would be the "Friday's Boy")? If it's the latter, it further establishes Johan as some sort of mythical figure rather than just a murderous sociopath.