History Headscratchers / Monster

1st Jul '16 7:16:30 PM nombretomado
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** Probably in a similar way to [[TwentiethCenturyBoys Friend]]: amass political power and insanely loyal supporters, then use them to breed chaos and destruction. Then, once he's finished with them, pit them against each other until all that's left is Johan.

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** Probably in a similar way to [[TwentiethCenturyBoys [[Manga/TwentiethCenturyBoys Friend]]: amass political power and insanely loyal supporters, then use them to breed chaos and destruction. Then, once he's finished with them, pit them against each other until all that's left is Johan.
19th Jan '16 2:57:29 AM Adept
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* There's a lot of references on here to Johan being an expy of Michio Yuki from ''{{MW}}''. I haven't actually read ''MW'', cause it's 1) hard to get ahold of 2) kind of a big investment of time, but mainly 3) the references here and elsewhere sound like there's stuff in it that already makes me feel like I need BrainBleach, and I don't squick easily. I just don't take to child molestation scenes, okay? Even when it's clear the author's not saying they're a good thing. Also, ''animals''? Multiple rape scenes? (And yeah, I know Tezuka's the Grand Old Man, so it's not cause I doubt it's high quality) Now I know Expy doesn't mean exact copy, but the references I've seen to Michio Yuki don't sound much like Johan, except maybe in some FanFic version where he's had a personality graft from Frank'n'Furter or something. So would reading ''MW'' add anything to understanding Johan as a character? Spoilers okay, as long as they're done so they won't bug anybody else that plans to read ''MW'' (Should this be in the Character discussion page? Wasn't sure)

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* There's a lot of references on here to Johan being an expy of Michio Yuki from ''{{MW}}''.''Manga/{{MW}}''. I haven't actually read ''MW'', cause it's 1) hard to get ahold of 2) kind of a big investment of time, but mainly 3) the references here and elsewhere sound like there's stuff in it that already makes me feel like I need BrainBleach, and I don't squick easily. I just don't take to child molestation scenes, okay? Even when it's clear the author's not saying they're a good thing. Also, ''animals''? Multiple rape scenes? (And yeah, I know Tezuka's the Grand Old Man, so it's not cause I doubt it's high quality) Now I know Expy doesn't mean exact copy, but the references I've seen to Michio Yuki don't sound much like Johan, except maybe in some FanFic version where he's had a personality graft from Frank'n'Furter or something. So would reading ''MW'' add anything to understanding Johan as a character? Spoilers okay, as long as they're done so they won't bug anybody else that plans to read ''MW'' (Should this be in the Character discussion page? Wasn't sure)
22nd Oct '15 5:57:05 PM Kalaong
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* It certainly seemed that he was, but [[http://forum.naruto.viz.com/showthread.php?t=99888 check out what this guy wrote.]] I want to think that we're meant to see him as simply corrupt so Tenma's decision to save Johan would be justified, since making his choice seem cut and dry makes for a beautiful setup for the later {{Deconstruction}} of it, as it makes the notion that Tenma may have been wrong all the more shocking. But now I'm not so sure. In fact, maybe the revelation that Johan's a serial killer is supposed to make us consider that maybe Heinemann had a point in that some people contribute more to society than others (i.e. the mayor). (However this seems to be undermined by the construction worker/opera singer situation. It's never said that the opera singer made a donation, but if he did, I don't see how the services a construction worker offers on a daily basis is any less useful to society than a one time donation to a hospital.) Then again, maybe Heinemann is a reflection of the cruel and ruthless reality than Johan sees-lives have no inherent value, and the value people put on it varies because people are just selfish [[HumansAreBastards bastards]] like Heinemann. Boy there are a lot different interpretations...

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* It certainly seemed that he was, but [[http://forum.naruto.viz.com/showthread.php?t=99888 check out what this guy wrote.]] ]](preserved in case link breaks)
-->'''mrsticky005''': Dr. Heinemann is an interesting character in the awesome sauce series that is Monster. In a manga rich with back stories, motives, character development and personality Dr Heinemann is deceptively simple.\\
But is there perhaps more than meets the eye to the Director of Eisler Memorial Hospital? \\
Because we see the world of Monster through Dr. Tenma's eyes we have a very biased view of Dr. Heinemann. He is after all Dr. Tenma's superior and it's not too difficult to dislike your boss (or so
I heard) and since Dr. Tenma is phenomenally likeable (almost or perhaps to the point of he's so likeable that it makes you sick) and Dr. Heinemann becomes antagonistic to Dr. Tenma while lacking the wicked charm of the Monster it makes him phenomenally unlikeable. At first glance Dr. Heinemann is a money grubber who's according to many viewers and Dr. Tenma himself is like a certain John Cusack movie namely one called "Better off dead".\\
But Dr. Heinemann may not be as bad as we think. Actually it's quite possible that he has a heart of gold like Dr. Tenma except without a little thing called naivety. You see Dr. Heinemann is misconstrued by almost everyone (especially Dr. Tenma) as being a doctor just for the pay check. While it is possible that this may be true there is evidence to the contrary. Dr. Tenma vs Dr. Heinemann is not actually a moral vs immoral battle but rather a debate of when we must make the moral sacrifices: now or later. Dr. Heinemann makes the sacrifices now and Dr. Tenma makes them later. \\
Dr. Tenma's philosophy is that doctors should save lives. Which sounds pretty basic and true. After all that is essence their job.\\
However Dr. Heinemann sees the doctor's job as "to progress as medical scholars". Taken in the wrong light this sounds as if Dr. Heinemann only cares about the prestige and status of being a doctor. Especially when you compare such statements with Dr. Heinemann's interest in Mayor Roddecker and his money.\\
But a question we ought to ask is why is Dr. Heinemann so interested in more money for the hospital? Sure greed would seem to be the obvious factor but Dr. Heinemann is already living quite well. He certainly does not need more money and he seems rather content with his lifestyle. I think if Dr. Heinemann had retired as far as personal gains go he would be satisfied. Yet why does he want more money? And why does he want to progress as a medical scholar? The answer may surprise you and perhaps Dr. Tenma too because like Dr. Tenma. Dr. Heinemann wants to save lives.\\
With more money and more knowledge more lives can be saved. While the Heinemann philosophy of "not all lives are equal" may sound rather cruel it is in a way more honest than Dr. Tenma's "all lives are equal." Think about it.\\
Dr. Tenma had to choose between saving the life of either a young boy or the mayor. Dr. Tenma chose the mayor.\\
However, if Dr. Tenma's philosophy is true then letting the mayor die and the boy live is equally as bad (or as good) as the opposite: letting the boy die and the mayor live.\\
After all, aren't their lives equal? Dr. Heinemann's view is actually less biased. Instead of "doing what feels right" which is Dr. Tenma's approach, Dr. Heinemann saves whoever is more advantageous to save. It may sound unfair, but the reality is that saving a mayor who can give funding to the hospital is in the long run a better move than saving a boy with no parents. I said before Dr. Tenma makes the sacrifices later. Well here's how.\\
By not saving the mayor, the hospital does not get the funds. Without those funds the hospital does not improve. Without improvement the hospital can't save as many lives as it can with the improvement.\\
It's basic economics. Better capital equals better results.\\
Saving the boy now instead of the mayor means letting boys that come to the hospital later will have to die due to the lack of funding. Now am I saying Dr. Tenma was wrong in his decision to save the boy? Not at all.\\
Yet I don't think it's as simple as Heinemann bad Tenma good.\\
Does this mean that Dr. Heinemann is a poorly constructed character? I would be tempted to say yes but at the same time I have to strongly disagree. Dr. Heinemann was clearly meant to be disliked. We are meant to see him as a money grubber and we are meant to think that he should die.\\
But then when we stop to think for a moment and ask why is he such a bad guy we may find that the answer is not so simple. It's important to note that Dr. Heinemann is old. That may be rather obvious and not worth mentioning but as the saying goes "with age comes experience." \\
How do we know that Dr. Heinemann has not gone through the same experience as Dr. Tenma. Maybe Dr. Heinemann has seen how cruel the world can be and that's how he formed his philosophy of "progressing as a medical scholar".\\
Upon closer inspection Dr. Heinemann may not be the monster we make him out to be. Actually it may very well be that the real monster here is the one who wished him dead:\\
Dr. Kenzo Tenma.
**I
want to think that we're meant to see him as simply corrupt so Tenma's decision to save Johan would be justified, since making his choice seem cut and dry makes for a beautiful setup for the later {{Deconstruction}} of it, as it makes the notion that Tenma may have been wrong all the more shocking. But now I'm not so sure. In fact, maybe the revelation that Johan's a serial killer is supposed to make us consider that maybe Heinemann had a point in that some people contribute more to society than others (i.e. the mayor). (However this seems to be undermined by the construction worker/opera singer situation. It's never said that the opera singer made a donation, but if he did, I don't see how the services a construction worker offers on a daily basis is any less useful to society than a one time donation to a hospital.) Then again, maybe Heinemann is a reflection of the cruel and ruthless reality than Johan sees-lives have no inherent value, and the value people put on it varies because people are just selfish [[HumansAreBastards bastards]] like Heinemann. Boy there are a lot different interpretations...
16th Oct '15 7:44:59 PM kittoe
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** The rerecorded portion of the tape features Johan's normal, male, talking voice- Tenma even identifies him by it. I just assumed he recorded over it right in front of Suk's mother, revealing his true gender in the process.
4th Apr '15 2:12:06 PM ACW
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***** Johan's FreudianExcuse doesn't need to be valid, or even based in reality. It's left open to interpretation whether evil is just his nature or something that was forced upon him, whether it's a conscious choice or whether he was doomed to be a CompleteMonster from birth. It's deliberate that no clear consensus is ever made in canon.

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***** Johan's FreudianExcuse doesn't need to be valid, or even based in reality. It's left open to interpretation whether evil is just his nature or something that was forced upon him, whether it's a conscious choice or whether he was doomed to be a CompleteMonster monster from birth. It's deliberate that no clear consensus is ever made in canon.



** Johan wanted to leave Tenma ruined, because Tenma was his greatest opponent. And in whatever way Johan could still "love", he loved Nina. This love for Nina also throws another issue into whether or not even Johan was really a CompleteMonster. I don't think Johan really thought he could destroy everyone; as long as he did a pretty good job, he was satisfied. He narrowed it down to the more realistic final goal when he decided Tenma betraying his own strongly held ethics was the final, vital step in his plan.
** Maybe Johan is more of a very dark case of LoveMakesYouEvil ([[{{Twincest}} NOT THAT WAY PERVS!!!]]) than CompleteMonster?

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** Johan wanted to leave Tenma ruined, because Tenma was his greatest opponent. And in whatever way Johan could still "love", he loved Nina. This love for Nina also throws another issue into whether or not even Johan was really a CompleteMonster.monster. I don't think Johan really thought he could destroy everyone; as long as he did a pretty good job, he was satisfied. He narrowed it down to the more realistic final goal when he decided Tenma betraying his own strongly held ethics was the final, vital step in his plan.
** Maybe Johan is more of a very dark case of LoveMakesYouEvil ([[{{Twincest}} NOT THAT WAY PERVS!!!]]) than CompleteMonster?monster?
28th Jan '15 1:41:54 AM Ximei
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[[folder: I will come for you soon]]
* Why on Earth would Johan think that his sister would be alright with him killing her caretakers AGAIN (especially after how she reacted the last time he did it)? Why would he think that Ana/Nina would agree to drop everything, her normal life and her education to go with him? And to do ''what''?
[[/folder]]
15th Nov '14 7:09:38 PM S_14
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*** I wouldn't say Tenma's corruption was entirely fan interpretation. He has, time and again, delighted in doing just that with everyone he encounters. He enriches lives as a way to get into their psyche, then destroys their lives (to varying levels of success) once he's there. Corruption is the only thing he exists to do. Look at General Wolf; he destroyed his quality of life until he was a broken, terrified shell of a man at the mercy of Johan's efforts. If Johan just wanted to be killed flat out, he would have handed the gun to anyone, even Tenma the night he killed Adolf Junkers, and told him to do it. I '''really''' doubt there was any shortage of people who wanted to kill him, even if Tenma wouldn't. If it was just death he wanted, without delighting in corrupting/tormenting Tenma (his most moral polar opposite) along the way (the way he did everyone else), there would be people lining up for it.


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*** This is definitely part of it. Johan loses interest in his goals. While I think he was interested in corrupting Tenma, I think the moment with Wim was a panicky breakdown in Johan's plan. It lacked the 'I will slowly, causally destroy you' tone he had in the entire series. His moment of glory where Dr. Tenma would kill him wasn't working (and it didn't in the fire with Schuwald either). His desire for destruction wasn't being met at all. Nina forgave him, Tenma was stalling...I don't think he knew what to make of it. He was not dying at the moment he pictured.
** When Tenma shot Roberto, his hands stopped trembling over the idea of shooting someone. He mentions to Grimmer he killed someone, and it wasn't even the man he was after. He seemed quite bitter about this. Self-defense is not breaking someone, but I think Johan got desperate to see his Doomsday vision play out in front of him, and pulled the gun on Wim out of desperation to see it come true. It wouldn't have really been corruption, but I think Johan's need to finally die took over. It wasn't corruption of Dr. Tenma anymore. Johan chased him into a corner, waited for Tenma to lash out, and when he didn't, his desire to be killed took over. His goal changed swiftly from one of at least partial destruction of his ultimate opponent to desperation to just be killed in those final moments, by any motivation necessary. The effect it had on Tenma suddenly became irrelevant.
15th Nov '14 6:41:27 PM S_14
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***** Adding to that, it was never really Tenma's responsibility in the first place to STOP Johan, other than in a moral/ethical sense (and he has more than fulfilled his moral obligation). He only took on that responsibility when it became clear the ''police didn't believe and would not believe him''. Lunge intially took Tenma's claim that 'the blonde kid I saved 9 years ago who escaped without a trace came back and killed my patient, with similar circumstances as three murders that benefited my rise to Chief of Surgery nine years ago, you gotta believe me' about as seriously as any normal person would. Tenma decided he needed to take Johan out because he brought him back to life, but also because the police decided to try and pin Tnema down as the murderer, rather than chase after a (admittedly questionable) lead. He wanted to clear his name and stop Johan from killing further. He only decide he had to kill Johan because he didn't think there was any other way to stop him when the authorities weren't on his side. Once they believed him and had Johan, his hands were clean. It should never have been his job to really kill Johan in the first place. It was an act of desperation to stop someone when justice failed. Once it succeeded, Tenma is free of the burden that should never have been his, and it's up to the police to do their job (and Dr. Tenma, his, once again)
2nd Oct '14 1:40:51 AM Kalaong
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* It certainly seemed that he was, but [[http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99888 check out what this guy wrote.]] I want to think that we're meant to see him as simply corrupt so Tenma's decision to save Johan would be justified, since making his choice seem cut and dry makes for a beautiful setup for the later {{Deconstruction}} of it, as it makes the notion that Tenma may have been wrong all the more shocking. But now I'm not so sure. In fact, maybe the revelation that Johan's a serial killer is supposed to make us consider that maybe Heinemann had a point in that some people contribute more to society than others (i.e. the mayor). (However this seems to be undermined by the construction worker/opera singer situation. It's never said that the opera singer made a donation, but if he did, I don't see how the services a construction worker offers on a daily basis is any less useful to society than a one time donation to a hospital.) Then again, maybe Heinemann is a reflection of the cruel and ruthless reality than Johan sees-lives have no inherent value, and the value people put on it varies because people are just selfish [[HumansAreBastards bastards]] like Heinemann. Boy there are a lot different interpretations...

to:

* It certainly seemed that he was, but [[http://naruto.[[http://forum.naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.com/showthread.php?t=99888 check out what this guy wrote.]] I want to think that we're meant to see him as simply corrupt so Tenma's decision to save Johan would be justified, since making his choice seem cut and dry makes for a beautiful setup for the later {{Deconstruction}} of it, as it makes the notion that Tenma may have been wrong all the more shocking. But now I'm not so sure. In fact, maybe the revelation that Johan's a serial killer is supposed to make us consider that maybe Heinemann had a point in that some people contribute more to society than others (i.e. the mayor). (However this seems to be undermined by the construction worker/opera singer situation. It's never said that the opera singer made a donation, but if he did, I don't see how the services a construction worker offers on a daily basis is any less useful to society than a one time donation to a hospital.) Then again, maybe Heinemann is a reflection of the cruel and ruthless reality than Johan sees-lives have no inherent value, and the value people put on it varies because people are just selfish [[HumansAreBastards bastards]] like Heinemann. Boy there are a lot different interpretations...
19th Jan '14 10:37:16 PM Zeke
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*** Doesn't count. Hers are explicable (explained, in fact).
This list shows the last 10 events of 237. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Headscratchers.Monster