History Headscratchers / Monster

26th Sep '16 9:03:14 PM Angewomon
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** I don't think Johan was doing it thinking that Nina would be okay with it. It's not entirely clear what he wanted to do with her afterward, but there may be a couple of explanations as to why he killed the Fortners. One could be that he was simply trying to remind her of their past and give her a motive to try and to kill him again. Another may be that in Johan's mind, getting rid of the Fortners meant that he would be taking his sister back from them. But this is Johan we're talking about though, so who knows?
26th Sep '16 8:53:39 PM Angewomon
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* I've seen it written here that the idea behind Johan threatening Wim was that it was Johan's final gambit to corrupt Tenma, forcing him to admit that not all lives are equal. But how would that have been different from Tenma's confrontations with Roberto and Christoph? Tenma shooting Johan to save Wim is no different from Tenma shooting Roberto to save Schuwald and himself or Tenma shooting Kristof to save Eva and himself. By this logic, shooting/killing in self-defense corrupts you. Yet the series doesn't seem to treat Tenma as corrupted after he shot Roberto (even before he was revealed to be alive), and of course, he ended up saving Christoph so that particular situation is rather moot. So what makes Johan's SadisticChoice situation special? Sure, if the situation had remained a case of murdering or not murdering instead of becoming a matter of self-defense, then I could see it as a case of Johan trying to corrupt Tenma. But it didn't, so how, exactly, would Tenma have been corrupted? Even if you argue that Tenma ''was'' corrupted after he shot Roberto, how would Johan's scenario make things worse?

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* I've seen it written here that the idea behind Johan threatening Wim was that it was Johan's final gambit to corrupt Tenma, forcing him to admit that not all lives are equal. But how would that have been different from Tenma's confrontations with Roberto and Christoph? Tenma shooting Johan to save Wim is no different from Tenma shooting Roberto to save Schuwald and himself or Tenma shooting Kristof Christoph to save Eva and himself. By this logic, shooting/killing in self-defense corrupts you. Yet the series doesn't seem to treat Tenma as corrupted after he shot Roberto (even before he was revealed to be alive), and of course, he ended up saving Christoph so that particular situation is rather moot. So what makes Johan's SadisticChoice situation special? Sure, if the situation had remained a case of murdering or not murdering instead of becoming a matter of self-defense, then I could see it as a case of Johan trying to corrupt Tenma. But it didn't, so how, exactly, would Tenma have been corrupted? Even if you argue that Tenma ''was'' corrupted after he shot Roberto, how would Johan's scenario make things worse?


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*** I think he was specifically wanting Tenma to kill him because he was wanting to re-enact his mother's SadisticChoice and have it go the way he felt it should have gone. Since Tenma was a father figure for Johan because he had saved his life, he saw an opportunity to have Tenma act in his mother's stead. This interpretation isn't mutually exclusive with the theory that he wanted to corrupt Tenma, of course, but it's worth pointing out.
26th Sep '16 8:35:14 PM Angewomon
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** Maybe he poisoned all of them. We didn't see anyone else taking the candy, after all. He could've used a syringe to put the poison in the candy, which is readily available in any hospital. Now, as to how he did all of this without getting caught and without opening the bag...uh, AWizardDidIt? EDIT: After looking back, I think it could have been possible that Heinemann and the other two doctors came back for seconds and Johan predicted correctly that they would. Still requires some suspension of disbelief, though.

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** Maybe he poisoned all of them. We didn't see anyone else taking the candy, after all. He could've used a syringe to put the poison in the candy, which is readily available in any hospital. Now, as to As for how he did all of this without getting caught and without opening the bag...uh, AWizardDidIt? EDIT: After looking back, I think bag, it could have been possible that Heinemann and the other two doctors came back for seconds and Johan predicted correctly that they would. Still requires some suspension of disbelief, though.



** In ''Another Monster'' Lunge said that he thought Nina was killed with the rest of the Fortners. It was only when he heard about Nina being in the hospital after the library incident that he realized that she was alive, so that explains why she was off the hook for so long. In regards to the fact that they return to being "normal citizens" instead of being witnesses, there wasn't much Tenma or Nina could do, as two of the policemen were being blackmailed by Johan, and people would believe their word over Tenma and Nina's. What does bug me, however, is that Nina doesn't even try to cooperate with Tenma. She just runs off before he comes back. Nor does she try to come forward at any time to try to clear Tenma's name. Of course, [[CassandraTruth the police probably would have thought she was crazy anyway,]] and she seemed more focused on [[{{Revenge}} killing Johan]] than anything else...

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** In ''Another Monster'' Lunge said that he thought Nina was killed with the rest of the Fortners. It was only when he heard about Nina being in the hospital after the library incident that he realized that she was alive, so that explains why she was off the hook for so long. In regards to the fact that they return to being "normal citizens" instead of being witnesses, there wasn't much Tenma or Nina could do, as two of the policemen were being blackmailed by Johan, and people would believe their word over Tenma and Nina's. What does bug me, however, is that Nina doesn't even try to cooperate with Tenma. She just runs off before he comes back. Nor does she try to come forward at any time to try to clear Tenma's name. Of course, [[CassandraTruth the police probably would have thought she was crazy anyway,]] and she seemed more focused on [[{{Revenge}} killing Johan]] than anything else...



** As for Tenma refusing to see Reichwein, he was likely just protecting him. (I also want to point out here that the only times Reichwein was shown requesting to see Tenma were when he was initially arrested and ''after'' he confessed, not before he confessed. Still, I suppose that wouldn't have kept him from trying to contact him before he made the decision to confess. ...At least I don't ''think'' it would. Not entirely sure about this.) As you said, Roberto was aware that Tenma trusts Reichwein, and thus Tenma might have thought that Roberto would anticipate turning to him. Therefore, whatever plan Reichwein would have come up with (most likely, it would involve hiding her, since that's all he really could do) would have likely been thwarted, and there was no guarantee that another attempt wouldn't be made on Reichwein's life if Roberto had to confront him to get to Eva. So he decided to do what he thought Roberto wouldn't expect: escape. [[OutGambitted Which was what Roberto and Johan wanted him to do if you buy the "it was all a plan to get Tenma to break out of jail" theory.]]

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** As for Tenma refusing to see Reichwein, he was likely just protecting him. (I also want to point out here that the only times Reichwein was shown requesting to see Tenma were when he was initially arrested and ''after'' he confessed, not before he confessed. Still, I suppose that wouldn't have kept him from trying to contact him before he made the decision to confess. ...At least I don't ''think'' it would. Not entirely sure about this.) As you said, Roberto was aware that Tenma trusts Reichwein, and thus Tenma might have thought that Roberto would anticipate turning to him. Therefore, whatever plan Reichwein would have come up with (most likely, it would involve hiding her, since that's all he really could do) would have likely been thwarted, and there was no guarantee that another attempt wouldn't be made on Reichwein's life if Roberto had to confront him to get to Eva. So he decided to do what he thought Roberto wouldn't expect: escape. [[OutGambitted Which was what Roberto and Johan wanted him to do if you buy the "it was all a plan to get Tenma to break out of jail" theory.]]



** (Same [[Troper/{{Angewomon}} troper]] who posted the JBM here.) True, but Tenma had a different reason to shoot after Nina came: Wim. Before Nina came, The only reason Tenma would have to shoot Johan would be to carry out on his plans to kill him, not protecting an innocent. But perhaps the fact that he let Nina talk to Johan instead of shooting him outright shows just how split he was on the decision. He could have just ignored her. *shrugs* I mean, deep down I don't think Tenma really ''wanted'' to kill Johan. He just felt as if he had no choice but to do so in order to stop Johan from murdering people. Personally, I think Nina's willingness to forgive Johan was what convinced Tenma that Johan had a shred of humanity left in him. ...Does that make any sense at all? XD
** I just watched the scene again subbed just for the heck of it. (Side note: Japanese Johan sounds creepier than English Johan. And English Johan is pretty damn creepy.) While he does pull the trigger back a little, he ''still'' hesitates a bit before Nina finds him. So I guess it wasn't as clear cut as I thought.

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** (Same [[Troper/{{Angewomon}} troper]] who posted Re-watched the JBM here.) True, but Tenma had a different reason to shoot after Nina came: Wim. Before Nina came, The only reason Tenma would have to shoot Johan would be to carry out on his plans to kill him, not protecting an innocent. But perhaps the fact that he let Nina talk to Johan instead of shooting him outright shows just how split he was on the decision. He could have just ignored her. *shrugs* I mean, deep down I don't think Tenma really ''wanted'' to kill Johan. He just felt as if he had no choice but to do so in order to stop Johan from murdering people. Personally, I think Nina's willingness to forgive Johan was what convinced Tenma that Johan had a shred of humanity left in him. ...Does that make any sense at all? XD
** I just watched the scene again subbed just for the heck of it. (Side note: Japanese Johan sounds creepier than English Johan. And English Johan is pretty damn creepy.)
scene. While he does pull the trigger back a little, he ''still'' hesitates a bit before Nina finds him. So I guess it wasn't as clear cut as I thought.



* I've seen it written here that the idea behind Johan threatening Wim was that it was Johan's final gambit to corrupt Tenma, forcing him to admit that not all lives are equal. But how would that have been different from Tenma's confrontations with Roberto and Kristof? Tenma shooting Johan to save Wim is no different from Tenma shooting Roberto to save Schuwald and himself or Tenma shooting Kristof to save Eva and himself. By this logic, shooting/killing in self-defense corrupts you. Yet the series doesn't seem to treat Tenma as corrupted after he shot Roberto (even before he was revealed to be alive), and of course, he ended up saving Kristof so that particular situation is rather moot. So what makes Johan's SadisticChoice situation special? Sure, if the situation had remained a case of murdering or not murdering instead of becoming a matter of self-defense, then I could see it as a case of Johan trying to corrupt Tenma. But it didn't, so how, exactly, would Tenma have been corrupted? Even if you argue that Tenma ''was'' corrupted after he shot Roberto, how would Johan's scenario make things worse?

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* I've seen it written here that the idea behind Johan threatening Wim was that it was Johan's final gambit to corrupt Tenma, forcing him to admit that not all lives are equal. But how would that have been different from Tenma's confrontations with Roberto and Kristof? Christoph? Tenma shooting Johan to save Wim is no different from Tenma shooting Roberto to save Schuwald and himself or Tenma shooting Kristof to save Eva and himself. By this logic, shooting/killing in self-defense corrupts you. Yet the series doesn't seem to treat Tenma as corrupted after he shot Roberto (even before he was revealed to be alive), and of course, he ended up saving Kristof Christoph so that particular situation is rather moot. So what makes Johan's SadisticChoice situation special? Sure, if the situation had remained a case of murdering or not murdering instead of becoming a matter of self-defense, then I could see it as a case of Johan trying to corrupt Tenma. But it didn't, so how, exactly, would Tenma have been corrupted? Even if you argue that Tenma ''was'' corrupted after he shot Roberto, how would Johan's scenario make things worse?
4th Aug '16 2:28:08 PM Kimelea
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* In one episode we see a student trying to interprete a poem about the arrival of a mysterious "Thursday's Boy" because of whom books will be burned. For the good part of this episode we are led to believe that this "Thursday's Boy" is a guy who reads to Schubert on Thursdays, and that he is in fact Johan (supported by Lotte's description of said guy as blond and beautiful), only to find out that Johan reads on Fridays and probably forget about the poem whatsoever. But then Schubert's book donation ceremony came, and what happened there matched the prediction perfectly. So... what's up with that? Was this poem mentioned just for the sake of {{Foreshadowing}} and nothing more? Or was it an actual prophecy about Johan, and if so, why was it incorrect (since in that case Johan would be the "Friday's Boy")? If it's the latter, it further establishes Johan as some sort of mythical figure rather than just a murderous sociopath.

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* In one episode we see a student trying to interprete a poem about the arrival of a mysterious "Thursday's Boy" because of whom books will be burned. For the good part of this episode we are led to believe that this "Thursday's Boy" is a guy who reads to Schubert on Thursdays, and that he is in fact Johan (supported by Lotte's description of said guy as blond and beautiful), only to find out that Johan reads on Fridays and probably forget about the poem whatsoever. But then Schubert's book donation ceremony came, comes, and what happened happens there matched matches the prediction perfectly. So... what's up with that? Was this poem mentioned just for the sake of {{Foreshadowing}} and nothing more? Or was it an actual prophecy about Johan, and if so, why was it incorrect (since in that case Johan would be the "Friday's Boy")? If it's the latter, it further establishes Johan as some sort of mythical figure rather than just a murderous sociopath.
4th Aug '16 1:02:37 PM Kimelea
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* In one episode we see a student trying to interprete a poem about the arrival of a mysterious "Thursday's Boy" because of whom books will be burned. For the good part of this episode we are led to believe that this "Thursday's Boy" is a guy who reads to Schubert on Thursdays, and that he is in fact Johan (supported by Lotte's description of said guy as blonde and beautiful), only to find out that Johan reads on Fridays and probably forget about the poem whatsoever. But then Schubert's book donation ceremony came, and what happened there matched the prediction perfectly. So... what's up with that? Was this poem mentioned just for the sake of {{Foreshadowing}} and nothing more? Or was it an actual prophecy about Johan, and if so, why was it incorrect (since in that case Johan would be the "Friday's Boy")? If it's the latter, it further establishes Johan as some sort of mythical figure rather than just a murderous sociopath.

to:

* In one episode we see a student trying to interprete a poem about the arrival of a mysterious "Thursday's Boy" because of whom books will be burned. For the good part of this episode we are led to believe that this "Thursday's Boy" is a guy who reads to Schubert on Thursdays, and that he is in fact Johan (supported by Lotte's description of said guy as blonde blond and beautiful), only to find out that Johan reads on Fridays and probably forget about the poem whatsoever. But then Schubert's book donation ceremony came, and what happened there matched the prediction perfectly. So... what's up with that? Was this poem mentioned just for the sake of {{Foreshadowing}} and nothing more? Or was it an actual prophecy about Johan, and if so, why was it incorrect (since in that case Johan would be the "Friday's Boy")? If it's the latter, it further establishes Johan as some sort of mythical figure rather than just a murderous sociopath.
4th Aug '16 12:57:45 PM Kimelea
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* In one episode we see a student trying to interprete a poem about the arrival of a mysterious "Thursday's Boy" because of whom books will be burned. For this entire episode we are led to believe that this "Thursday's Boy" is a guy who reads to Schubert on Thursdays, and that he is in fact Johan (supported by Lotte's description of said guy as blonde and beautiful), only to find out in the end that Johan reads on Fridays and probably forget about the poem whatsoever. But then Schubert's book donation ceremony came, and what happened there matched the prediction perfectly. So... what's up with that? Was this poem mentioned just for the sake of {{Foreshadowing}} and nothing more? Or was it an actual prophecy about Johan, and if so, why was it incorrect (since in that case Johan would be the "Friday's Boy")? If it's the latter, it further establishes Johan as some sort of mythical figure rather than just a murderous sociopath.

to:

* In one episode we see a student trying to interprete a poem about the arrival of a mysterious "Thursday's Boy" because of whom books will be burned. For the good part of this entire episode we are led to believe that this "Thursday's Boy" is a guy who reads to Schubert on Thursdays, and that he is in fact Johan (supported by Lotte's description of said guy as blonde and beautiful), only to find out in the end that Johan reads on Fridays and probably forget about the poem whatsoever. But then Schubert's book donation ceremony came, and what happened there matched the prediction perfectly. So... what's up with that? Was this poem mentioned just for the sake of {{Foreshadowing}} and nothing more? Or was it an actual prophecy about Johan, and if so, why was it incorrect (since in that case Johan would be the "Friday's Boy")? If it's the latter, it further establishes Johan as some sort of mythical figure rather than just a murderous sociopath.
4th Aug '16 12:56:11 PM Kimelea
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In one episode we see a student trying to interprete a poem about the arrival of a mysterious "Thursday's Boy" because of whom books will be burned. For this entire episode we are led to believe that this "Thursday's Boy" is a guy who reads to Schubert on Thursdays, and that he is in fact Johan (supported by Lotte's description of said guy as blonde and beautiful), only to find out in the end that Johan reads on Fridays and probably forget about the poem whatsoever. But then Schubert's book donation ceremony came, and what happened there matched the prediction perfectly. So... what's up with that? Was this poem mentioned just for the sake of {{Foreshadowing}} and nothing more? Or was it an actual prophecy about Johan, and if so, why was it incorrect (since in that case Johan would be the "Friday's Boy")? If it's the latter, it further establishes Johan as some sort of mythical figure rather than just a murderous sociopath.

to:

* In one episode we see a student trying to interprete a poem about the arrival of a mysterious "Thursday's Boy" because of whom books will be burned. For this entire episode we are led to believe that this "Thursday's Boy" is a guy who reads to Schubert on Thursdays, and that he is in fact Johan (supported by Lotte's description of said guy as blonde and beautiful), only to find out in the end that Johan reads on Fridays and probably forget about the poem whatsoever. But then Schubert's book donation ceremony came, and what happened there matched the prediction perfectly. So... what's up with that? Was this poem mentioned just for the sake of {{Foreshadowing}} and nothing more? Or was it an actual prophecy about Johan, and if so, why was it incorrect (since in that case Johan would be the "Friday's Boy")? If it's the latter, it further establishes Johan as some sort of mythical figure rather than just a murderous sociopath.
4th Aug '16 12:55:43 PM Kimelea
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[[folder:Thursday's Boy]]
In one episode we see a student trying to interprete a poem about the arrival of a mysterious "Thursday's Boy" because of whom books will be burned. For this entire episode we are led to believe that this "Thursday's Boy" is a guy who reads to Schubert on Thursdays, and that he is in fact Johan (supported by Lotte's description of said guy as blonde and beautiful), only to find out in the end that Johan reads on Fridays and probably forget about the poem whatsoever. But then Schubert's book donation ceremony came, and what happened there matched the prediction perfectly. So... what's up with that? Was this poem mentioned just for the sake of {{Foreshadowing}} and nothing more? Or was it an actual prophecy about Johan, and if so, why was it incorrect (since in that case Johan would be the "Friday's Boy")? If it's the latter, it further establishes Johan as some sort of mythical figure rather than just a murderous sociopath.
[[/folder]]
1st Jul '16 7:16:30 PM nombretomado
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** Probably in a similar way to [[TwentiethCenturyBoys Friend]]: amass political power and insanely loyal supporters, then use them to breed chaos and destruction. Then, once he's finished with them, pit them against each other until all that's left is Johan.

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** Probably in a similar way to [[TwentiethCenturyBoys [[Manga/TwentiethCenturyBoys Friend]]: amass political power and insanely loyal supporters, then use them to breed chaos and destruction. Then, once he's finished with them, pit them against each other until all that's left is Johan.
19th Jan '16 2:57:29 AM Adept
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* There's a lot of references on here to Johan being an expy of Michio Yuki from ''{{MW}}''. I haven't actually read ''MW'', cause it's 1) hard to get ahold of 2) kind of a big investment of time, but mainly 3) the references here and elsewhere sound like there's stuff in it that already makes me feel like I need BrainBleach, and I don't squick easily. I just don't take to child molestation scenes, okay? Even when it's clear the author's not saying they're a good thing. Also, ''animals''? Multiple rape scenes? (And yeah, I know Tezuka's the Grand Old Man, so it's not cause I doubt it's high quality) Now I know Expy doesn't mean exact copy, but the references I've seen to Michio Yuki don't sound much like Johan, except maybe in some FanFic version where he's had a personality graft from Frank'n'Furter or something. So would reading ''MW'' add anything to understanding Johan as a character? Spoilers okay, as long as they're done so they won't bug anybody else that plans to read ''MW'' (Should this be in the Character discussion page? Wasn't sure)

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* There's a lot of references on here to Johan being an expy of Michio Yuki from ''{{MW}}''.''Manga/{{MW}}''. I haven't actually read ''MW'', cause it's 1) hard to get ahold of 2) kind of a big investment of time, but mainly 3) the references here and elsewhere sound like there's stuff in it that already makes me feel like I need BrainBleach, and I don't squick easily. I just don't take to child molestation scenes, okay? Even when it's clear the author's not saying they're a good thing. Also, ''animals''? Multiple rape scenes? (And yeah, I know Tezuka's the Grand Old Man, so it's not cause I doubt it's high quality) Now I know Expy doesn't mean exact copy, but the references I've seen to Michio Yuki don't sound much like Johan, except maybe in some FanFic version where he's had a personality graft from Frank'n'Furter or something. So would reading ''MW'' add anything to understanding Johan as a character? Spoilers okay, as long as they're done so they won't bug anybody else that plans to read ''MW'' (Should this be in the Character discussion page? Wasn't sure)
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