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** technically he was supposed to be among those killed in the Red Wedding but had nipped outside to answer the call of nature right before it occurred.
** The North and the Vale have long been allies (having been the first to support Robert’s rebellion) and as the late matriarchs of both houses were sisters, plus Sweetrobin is technically still a child whereas Sansa and Jon are full grown adults, on top of that as Bran is handicap (which in feudal society was seen as a liability even among nobility) and the Vale’s last female leader’s tendency to use the moon door to dispose of people at a whim (a deranged Lysa) plus as Sweetrobin lacked battle experience Jon was the natural choice. At least in the TV show it’s not known how its going to go in the books.
** considering just how contorted things are and how badly their last gamble paid off the Iron Bank’s probably taking a back seat right now.
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** Lyanna said "Fuck it, he is a Stark" and all the lords agreed. Since the North doesn't answer from the Crown or the Sept I really don't see how that's not him being legitimized by acclamation.
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** Lyanna said "Fuck it, he is a Stark" and all the lords agreed. Since the North by this doesn't answer from the Crown or and has never answered to the Sept I really don't see how that's not him being legitimized by acclamation.
** in feudal society EVERYTHING went to the sons: name, title, and of course any assets unless by an official will. Plus as the patriarch of House Frey was known for having his way with the ladies it will be hard to establish as to whom will inherit the position. House Frey is done for as when the rest of the Riverlands find out retribution will undoubtedly be swift.
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** Watsonian perspective: (1) The Lannisters are too busy with all the drama in King's landing that they forgot taking Dragonstone after Stannis' death. They probably didn't think that Dany would eventually be coming to Westeros. (2) Dragonstone is a shithole with little resources and food. No wonder Stannis hates it when Robert gave him Dragonstone. (3) If Stannis did left a small garrison in there, they probably left when he died or they fled when saw Dany's dragons and ships. Doylist perspective: The writers think that the viewers are too forgetful or stupid to remember Dragonstone that they'll just make some excuse that the Lannisters just realize too late that Dany is going to take the castle when they heard of her impending arrival.
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** Watsonian perspective: (1) The Lannisters are too busy with all the drama in King's landing that they forgot taking Dragonstone after Stannis' death. They probably didn't think that Dany would eventually be coming to Westeros. (2) Dragonstone is a shithole with little resources and food. No wonder Stannis hates it when Robert gave him Dragonstone. (3) If Stannis did left a small garrison in there, they probably left when he died or they fled when saw Dany's dragons and ships. Doylist perspective: The writers think that the viewers are too forgetful or stupid to remember Dragonstone that they'll just make some excuse that the Lannisters just realize too late that Dany is going to take the castle when they heard of her impending arrival. (4) Dragonstone was stormed during Robert’s rebellion and Dragonstone had the strongest bloodline connection to House Tagaryaen (being their ancestral seat and home of their oldest vassal houses) so many who dwelled there fled or were killed with the survivors still too terrified to return.
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[[folder: Cersei and the sept’s destruction]]
This is listed as an AdaptationInducedPlotHole, but let’s at least discuss it here. Why didn’t Cersei face any consequences from the smallfolk for blowing up the Great Sept of Baelor and killing everyone inside, such as a guerilla war or getting lynched by an angry mob? Some have claimed this is RealityIsUnrealistic, since RealLife tyrants have done worse without being overthrown in popular revolts. Let’s play devil’s advocate for a moment.
* ‘’Point one: People don’t know she’s behind the explosion.’’ When speaking to the Iron Bank, Cersei claims it was an accident. But why couldn’t the small folk figure it out? They know it was her trial, and that the deaths allowed her to become queen. They should also know from how Tyrion repulsed Stannis’ invasion what wildfire is and that the Lannisters have access to it. The Lannisters don’t appear to have any propaganda machine, and it's been established that Cersei doesn’t give a shit what the smallfolk think. At best, she can send zombie Clegane to kill one of her millions of detractors at a time.
* ‘’Point two: People know, but not enough care.’’ But the people, or at least those in Kings Landing, have every motivation and factor to form a popular revolt; they have an ideology (their religion, which is everything to medieval people), a singular target, leaders (the martyred high sparrow and the faith militant’s surviving leaders), the sept explosion proves Cersei poses a threat to their lives, and killing the charitable Queen Margery and starting a war with the Tyrells means starvation will soon return, possibly worse than before. Maegor the Cruel is a canon character, and presumably so is how destroying a sept resulted in a prolonged guerilla war for the rest of his reign.
* ‘’Point three: People know, but are terrified of Cersei.’’ So Cersei has, in her corner, the Lannister army, wildfire, and zombie!Clegane. But it was shown back in season 2 with Joffrey that the Kings Landing smallfolk outnumber the garrison by a huge margin, and with medieval weapons, that matters. Joffrey also probably has fewer detractors than Cersei would after the sept explosion and even Lannister soldier and gold-cloak loyalty is now in question. Wildfire can be powerful, but it is still just a weapon that largely requires time and advanced knowledge to use effectively (and the wildfire caches under the city aren’t public knowledge.) Maegor’s dragons weren’t enough to dissuade the faith militant. Cersei may be safe in the Red Keep (from the smallfolk, at least) but the people could starve her out by attacking anyone who tries to bring food to it, and we see Cersei exit the keep at least once after season 5. If a popular revolt isn’t a real threat to a reigning monarch no matter how hated, why does Tyrion always act like it is?
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** Still doesn't make sense. The EU may suggest reasons for their to be some mistrust and resentment among the lower Reach houses, but the show itself shows us that the Tyrells were largely pragmatic and PR savvy, and Cersei has proven herself a monster and very untrustworthy, so they should still have the loyalty of most of their bannermen. The dialogue in the episode and WordOfGod also implies that they were never very strong, not that they some but lost it due to bad diplomacy. If their bannermen were so disloyal, why were the Lannisters so eager to marry them, and how could they field Westeros' largest army in the past, considering the plotlines in the North show many lower houses would sit out a war called for by higher lords they don't like? As for a "weakened position" the Lannisters were up against the North, Dothraki, Unsullied, a rightful queen with dragons, parts of the Greyjoys, and Dorne, and had just surrendered almost all of their homelands to win the battle with the Reach; the Tyrells position seemed pretty damn good ''before'' their entire kingdom apparently turned on them.
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** This must be the prime contender against "Dany kinda forgot about the Iron Fleet" for the biggest VoodooShark of this show...
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** When asked this question, [[WordOfGod Sophie Turner said]] Sansa withheld the information because she wanted the credit for the victory. But this doesn't make sense because Littlefinger, the Knights themselves, and the lords of the Vale will get far more credit, if Sansa would get any at all considering withholding the information got countless men killed, nearly killed Jon, and possibly killed Rickon.
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another point.
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** There aren't even many areas ''technically'' under Cersei's control after the Lannisters willingly surrender Casterly Rock and with it, the Westerlands, early in the war, and the narrative treats this as a brilliant gambit. So clearly who controls Cersei's underlings' homelands isn't a big factor in their loyalty.
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*** Except, of course, their success was going to last precisely until Daenerys learns of it and comes down on them with her dragon(s) against whom their one measly ballista is no counter whatsoever, and it should've been obvious to
anyone from the very start, and why does everone keep ignoring the factor of dragons? Also, what is up with downplaying Grey Worm's victory? He hasn't just taken one castle - ''he conquered the Westerlands''. Who cares if they'd emptied the castle's larders? Unless the Lannister army sacked and burned their own country, starting with Lannisport that is sitting right next to Casterly Rock, I think the Unsullied will be fine.
anyone from the very start, and why does everone keep ignoring the factor of dragons? Also, what is up with downplaying Grey Worm's victory? He hasn't just taken one castle - ''he conquered the Westerlands''. Who cares if they'd emptied the castle's larders? Unless the Lannister army sacked and burned their own country, starting with Lannisport that is sitting right next to Casterly Rock, I think the Unsullied will be fine.
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*** Except, of course, their success was going to last precisely until Daenerys learns of it and comes down on them with her dragon(s) against whom their one measly ballista is no counter whatsoever, and it should've been obvious to
anyone from the very start, and why does everone keep ignoring the factor of dragons?whatsoever. Also, what is up with downplaying Grey Worm's victory? He hasn't just taken one castle - ''he conquered the Westerlands''. Who cares if they'd emptied the castle's larders? Unless the Lannister army sacked and burned their own country, starting with Lannisport that is sitting right next to Casterly Rock, I think the Unsullied will be fine.
anyone from the very start, and why does everone keep ignoring the factor of dragons?
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* Also, Robb explicitly lost the castle with nothing to show for it, while Jaime intentionally surrendered his as a tactical maneuvre that paid off.
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*** Except, of course, their success was going to last precisely until Daenerys learns of it and comes down on them with her dragon(s) against whom their one measly ballista is no counter whatsoever, and it should've been obvious to
anyone from the very start, and why does everone keep ignoring the factor of dragons? Also, what is up with downplaying Grey Worm's victory? He hasn't just taken one castle - ''he conquered the Westerlands''. Who cares if they'd emptied the castle's larders? Unless the Lannister army sacked and burned their own country, starting with Lannisport that is sitting right next to Casterly Rock, I think the Unsullied will be fine.
anyone from the very start, and why does everone keep ignoring the factor of dragons? Also, what is up with downplaying Grey Worm's victory? He hasn't just taken one castle - ''he conquered the Westerlands''. Who cares if they'd emptied the castle's larders? Unless the Lannister army sacked and burned their own country, starting with Lannisport that is sitting right next to Casterly Rock, I think the Unsullied will be fine.
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** It doesn't hurt the Lannister prestiege because people soon learn it was part of a deliberate plan to defeat his enemies, and it succeeded. Not only that, but it succeeded in a way that enabled them to take the castle back. Clearly a successful plan that involves giving up the castle temporarily to defeat his enemies wouldn't hurt the Lannister prestiege, while Robb's failure to hold his own castle because he trusted the hostage of his defeated enemies obviously would.
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*** And no one would run into her the entire time? This is the Frey's main castle. It's got tons of people in it going all over the place all times of day and night. It seems highly unlikely all the places she needed to go to cover up the murder with be totally unattended the entire time she needed them to be.
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** Because nobody outside of the Watch really cares about the Watch's vows, as long as they stay at the Wall. Their only concern are deserters, since they're the equivalent of escaped convicts.
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*** Yes, and apparently "her entire family was murdered by wildlings and she came running to us with her babe" is way too difficult to make up.
** Because nobody outside of the Watch really cares about the Watch's vows, as long as they stay at the Wall.Their Their
only concern are deserters, since they're the equivalent of escaped convicts.
** Because nobody outside of the Watch really cares about the Watch's vows, as long as they stay at the Wall.
only concern are deserters, since they're the equivalent of escaped convicts.
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trope split
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** The northerners accept the Stark's word over Littlefinger's without question because of their HundredPercentAdorationRating (recently restored because the northern houses who opposed them are dead) and because [[SmugSnake Littlefinger]] is [[ObviouslyEvil Littlefinger]]. Meanwhile Yohn Royce is the only man from the Vale present and he certainly wouldn't mind Littlefinger being put on a KangarooCourt. Furthermore, when he's given the chance to present a defense, Littlefinger puts up no counter-arguments of his own - instead he tries to order Royce to escort him to safety, which certainly doesn't help his case.
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** The northerners accept the Stark's Starks' word over Littlefinger's without question because of their HundredPercentAdorationRating UniversallyBelovedLeader status (recently restored because the northern houses who opposed them are dead) and because [[SmugSnake Littlefinger]] is [[ObviouslyEvil Littlefinger]]. Meanwhile Yohn Royce is the only man from the Vale present and he certainly wouldn't mind Littlefinger being put on a KangarooCourt. Furthermore, when he's given the chance to present a defense, Littlefinger puts up no counter-arguments of his own - instead he tries to order Royce to escort him to safety, which certainly doesn't help his case.
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Asskicking Equals Authority has been renamed.
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* Not to mention, he is a Stark, who are all generally considered to be capable warriors. In addition, he's the son of Eddard Stark and the brother of Robb Stark, who are both renowned warriors in their own rights. Coupled with the fact that Jon ''volunteered'' to the join the Night's Watch and ended up becoming the Lord Commander, it's easy to put two and two together in an AsskickingEqualsAuthority society.
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* Not to mention, he is a Stark, who are all generally considered to be capable warriors. In addition, he's the son of Eddard Stark and the brother of Robb Stark, who are both renowned warriors in their own rights. Coupled with the fact that Jon ''volunteered'' to the join the Night's Watch and ended up becoming the Lord Commander, it's easy to put two and two together in an AsskickingEqualsAuthority AsskickingLeadsToLeadership society.
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*** We're rather off topic, but the real "control" lies with the soldiers. What would Cersei do if the majority, or even a good portion of her soldiers just refused to collect her taxes or rally when she called them? Send what's left of her army across hundreds of miles to discipline them while also fighting a war against a stronger enemy? That's not an abstract; that's how military coups work and chains of command break down. It's largely the same with the nobles, too. It's already a stretch to say that people came to the conclusion they should have offscreen, but to say they're ignoring it out of pragmatism doesn't make sense because the person they're supposed to be afraid of has little actual leverage over them, and has proven themselves the exact type of person not to honor any bargains made.
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*** The majority of the Lannister army might not live in King's Landing, but they do live in places under Cersei's direct control, which means they face the same issue. As for the nobles, turning against Cersei still has risks, not to mention they aren't exactly thrilled at the idea giving Westeros to a deposed Targarian who is leading a horde of foreign savages with a reputation for rape and plunder. And like I said, Jaime did say they didn't have the support of the other houses, which implies that most of the nobles have indeed turned against Cersei, or at the very least decided to stay neutral as best they can.
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*** I was primarily referring to the nobles, the overwhelming majority of whom don't live in Kings Landing. The majority of the Lannister army doesn't, either.
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*** There’s a lot more to take into consideration than who has the strongest army. If you’re living in King’s Landing under Cersei, then it doesn’t matter that Dany has the stronger faction, what matters is that Cersei is the one in position to harm you or your family if you turn against them.
