Created By: SilverWings on July 7, 2012 Last Edited By: partner555 on June 9, 2014

Same Event Different Perspective

Changing the perspective from which an event is viewed to show new information.

Name Space:
Main
Page Type:
Trope
I, partner555, have adopted this ykttw since the original sponsor hasn't showed up.


Repeating the same scene can be a powerful effect, used for emphasis or drama. Sometimes however, the same event is viewed from a different perspective and something new was learned that wasn't apparent when we saw the event the first time around.

This trope is about how seeing or experiencing events again, only this time, from a different perspective, can result in the revelation of new information.

This trope can be used to show that a character is an Unreliable Narrator, by having the new scene play out from an outside or honest perspective. It can also be used this way to discover the unreliable narration was the result of False Memories.

This can be invoked by characters where they decide to tell what really happened from a perspective different from the original perspective. The Summation in visual media will often reuse the same scene from a different perspective to show "what really happened" in the mystery as the detective does a voiceover.

A related trope is Repeat Cut (using the same scene multiple times in a row) and often used with Once More, with Clarity! (using the same scene later, when the audience has more background information to interpret the scene).

Despite the similarity, this is not to be confused with "Rashomon"-Style. With "Rashomon"-Style, it is uncertain which perspective is telling the truth while with this trope, it is clear which perspective is telling the truth.

Compare Another Side, Another Story, which is specific to Video Games and allows you to play as another character, Perspective Flip, which is where this is applied to adaptations and retellings of the original work, and Through the Eyes of Madness, which is where an insane person has a different point-of-view of what's going on than the saner people.

Contrast No Campaign for the Wicked and No Canon for the Wicked.

Not to be confused with Switching P.O.V. which is about changing perspectives for a while while this trope is about seeing the same event from a different perspective.

See also Self-Serving Memory and Selective Obliviousness, which depending on the timing, can result in this trope.

Due to the nature of this trope, most examples here are spoilers. Read at your own risk as many of them are untagged.


Examples

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    Advertising 
  • In the 80s there was an advertisement for the Guardian newspaper that was this trope explicitly. First shot was of a young skinhead breaking into a run, looking like he was trying to get away from something. Second shot from a different angle showed him running towards a businessman and grabbing his briefcase, like he was going to steal it. Third, wider shot showed the businessman under an elevated stack of bricks about to fall - the skinhead was saving him! The point being, until you see what's going on from all angles, you don't know what's going on.
  • There are dozens of commercials for Specsavers which use this trope to imply that characters need glasses. A man walks into a steamy hotel sauna, change the shot, turns out it's the hotel kitchen. An elderly couple sit on a bench to eat a sandwich, change the shot, turns out it's a roller coaster.

    Anime and Manga 
  • The first episode of Tasogare Otome X Amnesia is all about displaying this trope for comedic effect. It's done at more than one point in the series, often showing how Momoe, the only member of the Power Trio who can't see ghosts, interprets Niiya's comedic attempts at convincing her that there are no ghosts present as dramatic exorcisms.

    Film 
  • The Running Man. The heroes try to invoke this to show the world the truth about what the ruling powers have been doing.
  • As the title suggests, Vantage Point is all about displaying this trope. There are multiple times where the events are rewound so that it can be seen from the point-of-view of a different character, leading to multiple Plot Twists.
  • Patton. Captain Steiger recounts a story of Patton's past exploits in order to explain his personality. Patton saw several men apparently kidnapping a woman by forcing her into a truck. He took out a revolver and stopped them at gunpoint. However, It turns out that the woman was the fiancee of one of the men and they were just helping her into the truck.
  • In the beginning of the film LOCKOUT we see a security tape, that shows the main character killing his Obi Wan. Later we see events from his perspective and it turns out the main character that was seen in the footage was actually his mirror reflexion and mentor was shot by a bad guy the same moment the hero shot another baddie.
  • The first part of French film He Loves Me... He Loves Me Not is told from the female protagonist's perspective, and plays like a romance. Then the film tells the same story from a more neutral point of view, and she is revealed as a deranged stalker of the male lead, who doesn't even know who she is.
  • An unusual example occurs in Harry Potter where the two different perspectives are from the same person due to time travel being involved. Harry thinks he was being saved by his father from the Dementors, but it turns out to be his future self.

    Literature 
  • In the book First Step when one of the soldiers is proposed to be the emperor's heir's bodyguard, he is checked by a mage who dislikes him. To prove that soldier is unsuited, the mage shows a flashback where the soldier stands over the dead bodies of imperial soldiers, wishing he could kill more, "and the emperor, too". When everybody is shocked, the soldier's commander angrily widens the perspective of flashback, showing that the soldier was, at the moment, defending said commander, attacked by imperials. Seeing how good a defender the soldier is, he gets instantly accepted.
  • The book and film Atonement relies on this to set off conflict. Early on Briony looks out the window to see her older sister Cecilia in soaked undergarments while her male friend Robbie is watching, and thinks Robbie is harassing her. Later she spots the two of them busy in the library and thinks Robbie is raping her sister. However, both events were in fact consensual, as the audience sees in repeats of those scenes from the couple's point-of-view.

    Live Action TV 
  • In Buffy the Vampire Slayer "Same Time Same Place" Willow comes back to Sunnydale. She goes to see Spike, who is crazy in the Sunnydale High School basement, and he gives nonsensical responses to her. A few minutes later Buffy comes to see Spike and he gives the exact same nonsensical responses. We discover it's actually the same scene - Willow and Buffy can't see each other.
    Spike: Everyone's talking to me. No one's talking to each other.
  • The Frasier episode Perspectives on Christmas retells the same events through the eyes of different characters, each of whom has their own interpretation of events based on their limited knowledge. Most notably, Daphne believes that Martin is dying, due to him having gotten a phone call from the doctor and spending time in church without telling anyone. From Frasier's perspective, we see Martin complaining about having been roped into the Christmas pageant at a local church by a friend from the dog park, and didn't want anyone he knew seeing him there.

    Video Game 
  • In Lego Harry Potter: Years 1-4, Harry sees a magical moving photo of Sirius pointing his wand at a group of Muggles. One flash of light later, they're dead. Sirius later taps the photo to make the camera angle change, and you can see that Sirius is actually aiming at Wormtail, who is hiding in an alley. Wormtail draws his wand and kills the Muggles, before turning into a rat and fleeing.
  • The main plot point in the second playthrough of Nier is that the boss battles are shown from the Shades point of view. Turns out those Shades weren't evil monsters after all.
  • The climax of Braid shows the beginning from the princess's point of view after it shows Tim attempting to rewind time to get to her in a way that made it seem he was trying to rescue her: The monster she was running from is actually the time warping Tim, not the knight as what he initially believed. The knight actually came to rescue her from him, not kidnap him, and the traps that Tim was avoiding to get to her was actually traps that she placed to deter him.

    Webcomic 
  • In El Goonish Shive, Rhoda's encounter with the boar is shown twice. The first time is at the beginning of the storyline and the second is at the end. The first time her arms are shown outstretched but her hands are off-panel. The second time her arms and hands are shown in a panel by themselves and the latter are seen to be glowing. The panel before that reveals she has a magic mark. The subsequent panels show the progression of the boar's growth as Rhoda's hands continue to glow until the boar reaches her. The third strip in the storyline is the first time we see the boar. It can be seen to appear to be shaking but it is actually finishing growing.
Community Feedback Replies: 179
  • July 7, 2012
    SilverWings
    Film: Referred to by name in Star Wars Return Of The Jedi:
    Obi-wan: Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our point of view.
  • July 8, 2012
    randomsurfer
    Angel: Angel kills something he thinks is a demon stalking/menacing a woman, but it turns out he was her Combat By Champion champion, and now Angel has to replace him.
  • July 8, 2012
    katiek
    How is this different from Rashomon Style?
  • July 8, 2012
    DmM
    In Lego Harry Potter: Years 1-4, Harry sees a magical moving photo of Sirius pointing his wand at a group of Muggles. One flash of light later, they're dead. Sirius later taps the photo to make the camera angle change, and you can see that Sirius is actually aiming at Wormtail, who is hiding in an alley. Wormtail draws his wand and kills the Muggles, before turning into a rat and fleeing.
  • July 9, 2012
    Bisected8
    • An old advert for an insurance (?) company features a punk running down a street. From another angle you can see him tackling some old man. Finally, yet another angle shows he was knocking him out of the way of some (unconvincing, foam) bricks. The narration talks about this trope.
  • July 9, 2012
    randomsurfer
    In an episode of The Simpsons people think Homer is crazy because he claims to have hired a roofing contractor whom nobody else was able to see (ergo he was hallucinating). Turns out everyone who saw him talk to thin air actually just had a bad angle on the conversations - including in one instance a localized black hole blocking Bart's view of the contractor.
  • July 11, 2012
    69BookWorM69
    @ katiek I'm not sure, but I think Rashomon Style involves three or more points of view, each being fully depicted (retelling the events repeatedly, but with differences). I think this one is simply intended to have one deceptive showing, followed by "the truth". Perhaps I'm reading too much into it?
  • July 12, 2012
    Arivne
    Film
    • Patton. Captain Steiger recounts a story of Patton's past exploits in order to explain his personality. Patton saw several men apparently kidnapping a woman by forcing her into a truck. He took out a revolver and stopped them at gunpoint. It turned out that the woman was the fiancee of one of the men and they were just helping her into the truck.
  • July 12, 2012
    Xtifr
    Rashomon Style explicitly says "two or more characters", so I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference. Also, we have several other related tropes linked from that page.
  • July 12, 2012
    sigh824
    The main plot point in the second playthrough of Nier is that the boss battles are shown from the Shades point of view. Turns out those Shades weren't evil monsters after all.
  • July 12, 2012
    sigh824
    Also, the last level of Braid has this as the big reveal.
  • July 12, 2012
    sigh824
    Lastly as Truth In Television, politics and news are all about changing point of view and perception to prove their point. Examples can be found in Moral Guardians and News Tropes.
  • July 12, 2012
    randomsurfer
    [post removed by author]
  • July 12, 2012
    reub2000
  • April 20, 2014
    partner555
    I like this, and I even have a few things to add, I'm resurrecting this and if the original sponsor doesn't show up, I'll be taking charge of this.

    Compare Perspective Flip, which is where this is applied to adaptations and retellings.
  • April 20, 2014
    partner555
    In the Lego Harry Potter game Years 1 to 4, to show the plot point of Sirius killing people, they use a magic photograph. When it comes time to The Reveal, Sirius taps the photograph to show the event from a different angle which shows that it was Peter who killed the innocent people.

    I also question whether spoiler tags are needed since this trope is inherently a spoiler trope.
  • April 20, 2014
    DAN004
  • April 20, 2014
    partner555
    Found the Spoilered Rotten index. We can put this there when it is launched.
  • April 20, 2014
    partner555
    Self Serving Memory and Selective Obliviousness, depending on their timing within the work, could eventually lead to this.
  • April 20, 2014
    KarjamP
    The climax of Braid shows the beginning from the princess's point of view after it shows Tim attempting to rewind time to get to her in a way that made it seem he was trying to rescue her: The monster she was running from is actually the time warping Tim, not the knight as what he initially believed. The knight actually came to rescue her from him, not kidnap him, and the traps that Tim was avoiding to get to her was actually traps that she placed to deter him.
  • April 21, 2014
    oneuglybunny
    Western Animation
    • Kanbar Animation's Hoodwinked has the various suspects at Grandma's house recount their roles in the story to detective Nicky Flippers. While everyone's story jibes with all the others, the one constant character in all their flashbacks points the detective to the real culprit in the Goodie Recipe thefts.
  • April 22, 2014
    partner555
    ^ Are you sure that might not belong to Rashomon Style instead? Worded as it is right now, I'm not sure it quite fits this trope and I haven't seen the movie so I can't reword it to make it fit.
  • April 22, 2014
    ShanghaiSlave
    ^ It's Rashomon Style. I've seen the movie.

    also, nearly all examples are Zero Context Example.

    "X uses this trope" explains nothing on how the example counts.

  • April 22, 2014
    partner555
    While I admit some examples could be elaborated on, most of them seem clear to me. Most of the examples explain how a situation looks from one perspective before showing it in a difference perspective that casts new lights on the events as per what the trope says.

    Also, thanks for the pointer on the Hoodwinked example.
  • April 22, 2014
    Arivne
    • Namespaced and italicized work names.
    • Deleted unnecessary blank line(s).
    • Added blank line(s) for readability.
    • Corrected spelling (Spidery -> Spidey).
  • April 22, 2014
    partner555
    ^ Thanks. I forgot we had to use italics for work names on trope pages.
  • April 23, 2014
    partner555
    Anyone with more examples to give?

    As it stands, when it comes to cross wicking with examples and related tropes, I would end up with a little over 20 wicks. I would like a bit more before I even consider launching this trope.
  • April 23, 2014
    DAN004
    More context for Pandora Hearts plz.
  • April 25, 2014
    partner555
    Is there anyone who watched/read Pandora Hearts? I think I found the context necessary for the Pandora Hearts example but not having seen the show or read the manga, I'm not sure if it fits.

    The example is from the Et Tu Brute entry on the work page:

    Glen's betrayal of Jack's friendship at the Tragedy of Sablier, which is actually revealed to be Jack's betrayal of Glen, as Jack deliberately opened the doors to the Abyss and tried to bring the entire world into it just so that he could meet Lacie again.

    Anyone who was betrayed by Jack, after the revelation in Retrace LXV also applies, including Oz, who learned that he was just being used by Jack like he was one hundred years ago as the B-rabbit and Arthur Barma, who was befriended by Jack for the sole purpose of writing a false account of the events that played out at Sablier that made Jack look like the hero.
  • April 25, 2014
    SonofRojBlake
    In the 80s there was an advertisement for the Guardian newspaper that was this trope explicitly. First shot was of a young skinhead breaking into a run, looking like he was trying to get away from something. Second shot from a different angle showed him running towards a businessman and grabbing his briefcase, like he was going to steal it. Third, wider shot showed the businessman under an elevated stack of bricks about to fall - the skinhead was saving him! The point being, until you see what's going on from all angles, you don't know what's going on.
  • April 25, 2014
    NemuruMaeNi
    Stories focusing on a Groundhog Day Loop invoke this trope in plot development.

    As a sidenote, how is the "Radical" word advocated? Is it inferred that some differences are radical and some are not? Is there a criterion? Doesn't the name feel shaky with this?
  • April 25, 2014
    partner555
    ^ I was worried a bit about the name, but I kept it to myself.

    I'll list alternatives.
  • April 26, 2014
    partner555
    bump
  • April 27, 2014
    partner555
    No further discussion on the name? If no one objects, I'll change it to Perspective Change Plot Twist.
  • April 27, 2014
    ridicumouse
    There are dozens of commercials for Specsavers which use this trope to imply that characters need glasses. A man walks into a steamy hotel sauna, change the shot, turns out it's the hotel kitchen. An elderly couple sit on a bench to eat a sandwich, change the shot, turns out it's a rollercoaster.

    (Not all the Should Have Gone To Specsavers commercials qualify since many of them show the mistake the characters are making right from the start of the ad, but those listed above all qualify.)
  • April 28, 2014
    crazysamaritan
    Repeat Cut is related somehow.
  • April 28, 2014
    partner555
    ^ Hmm. Both may show the same event from differing perspectives, but this trope is about providing plot twists via a new perspective while Repeat Cut is about enhancing the action and drama of the event by showing it from multiple perspectives.

    I guess they are comparable.
  • April 29, 2014
    partner555
    Is there no one who could help improve the Pandora Hearts example? If not, I'll remove it.
  • April 30, 2014
    partner555
    Removing Pandora Hearts example for now.
  • April 30, 2014
    ClockStopping
    Not as dramatic as some examples, but...

    • In Little Busters, mid-way through Rin's route Kyousuke starts to act as an antagonist, forcing Rin into a really awful situation that makes her miserable and stopping Riki from getting her out. It's only when we see a summary of the events of the whole visual novel from his perspective later on that we get the whole story - he was hoping she'd grow and become stronger through the event, as he knew that soon she would be on her own and unable to rely on him and he was worried that she was too dependent on him.
  • April 30, 2014
    StrixObscuro
    Literature
    • At the end of Venus Prime 3, the story suddenly jumps ahead two years (and changes to first-person perspective) to show William Laird arranging the execution of Lord Kingman for failing to kill Sparta. The whole chapter, written from Laird's perspective, makes it sound like he's going to turn the Free Spirit into an even bigger threat. The next book reveals that over the course of those two years, Sparta had managed to infiltrate the Free Spirit. Barely seconds after Kingman's death, she swoops in and takes advantage of the confusion to kill off all of Laird's fellow prophetae, leaving him with nothing except nominal command over a small army of sleeper agents, most of whom probably don't even know who he is.
  • April 30, 2014
    randomsurfer
    In Universe done by Barney in How I Met Your Mother, such as when he recaps The Karate Kid as the story of a blond boy going to the All-Valley Karate Championship and almost winning until that nerdy kid with the asian sensei cheats his way to victory.
  • April 30, 2014
    PaulA
    Nobody seems to have asked yet: how is this different from Once More With Clarity?
  • April 30, 2014
    DAN004
    ^ here, one is not necessarily clearer than the other. Just about differing way of seeing an event by different ppl.
  • April 30, 2014
    partner555
    ^^ Also, that trope occurs after a plot twist. THIS trope occurs to SHOW a plot twist.
  • May 1, 2014
    KarjamP
    That trope needs to be cleaned up though - there's several examples there that are actually this trope rather than what you described to be Once More With Clarity, partner555. (Braid is an example, as well as My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic, Red Vs Blue, etc.)
  • May 1, 2014
    partner555
    Ok then, at the very least, this gives me more example to take from.

    Also, we already have Braid.
  • May 1, 2014
    partner555
    For the Venus Prime example, where is the perspective change?

    For the How I Met Your Mother example example, that seems closer to Perspective Flip to me, as described anyway. Didn't watch much of the show.
  • May 4, 2014
    partner555
    Needs examples, preferably ones that describe the perspective change leading to the plot twist or how characters try to invoke this.
  • May 4, 2014
    crazysamaritan
    Description needs trimming: it has become ather overgrown and depends on Example As Thesis, which is discouraged.
  • May 4, 2014
    partner555
    I have noted your comment. How about this to start things of:

    Audiences tend to see events from one point of view. Often, that is all that's needed to know what's going on in the story. Huh? Were going to see it from a different point-of-view? Well, ok then, it's not like it'll add something new... Oh my god! That totally changes what really happened!!!

    Also, I guess I can trim down the comparison with related tropes. Will that be to your liking?
  • May 4, 2014
    KarjamP
    I don't see anything wrong with Example As Thesis in this article, and actually makes it more entertaining for me, especially since the description then explains what the trope's about in more detail.

    It's discouraged, yes, but I doubt it's outright forbidden.
  • May 4, 2014
    partner555
    I knew it was a good idea to not edit the article immediately.

    So you really think so? I need to get a lot of people to agree that the article is satisfactory before it can be launched, otherwise, it becomes liable to get resent here.
  • May 5, 2014
    crazysamaritan
    It is discouraged to the point of tropers are expected to rewrite the description if it uses Example As Thesis.
  • May 5, 2014
    DAN004
    ^ you might as well call it "off limits" instead of "discouraged" if that was the case.
  • May 5, 2014
    DAN004
    ^ you might as well call it "off limits" instead of "discouraged" if that was the case.
  • May 6, 2014
    StrixObscuro
    In the Venus Prime example, the scene is described from the Big Bad's perspective the first time it's presented, and then from the heroine's perspective the second time...
  • May 6, 2014
    Synchronicity
    Dunno if this counts, but:

    • A Song Of Ice And Fire crosses with with Switching POV. An example is when Cersei hears the news that Davos Seaworth is dead in the fourth book. Come the fifth book and a change in POV, it's revealed that Wyman Manderly faked his death and is using him to search for Rickon Stark to stage a coup against the Boltons.
  • May 7, 2014
    Kakai
    For Literature:
    • In book First Step it is used in-universe: when one of the soldiers is proposed to be emperor's heir's bodyguard, he is checked by mage who dislikes him. To prove that soldier is unsuited, mage shows a flashback where soldier stands over dead bodies of imperial soldiers, wishing he could kill more, "and the emperor, too". When everybody is shocked, soldier's commander angrily widens the perspective of flashback, showing that soldier was, at the moment, defending said commander, attacked by imperials. Seeing how good defender the soldier is, he gets instantly accepted.

    (I guess there's a way to shorten this description, but well...)
  • May 7, 2014
    NemuruMaeNi
    In light of the exchange above regarding Once More With Clarity, it's hard for me to make heads or tails of this candidate-of-a-trope. This trope = A certain "plot twist", which is presented in some work, boils down to switching of the POV? or of the perspective? or either? If more or less so, then I'll still need to know what does "plot twist" in this context mean. Aren't twists opinion things?

    Description by a rhethorics-rich example has me puzzled, because I don't get it and I would rather say it's a piece of poorly written prose, than be forced into a role of an idiot reader (not to imply the real me typing this feels any hurt) who buys the conclusion of "who stabbed who and how" just from one still frame.

    Also, Knight In Shining Armor and Black Knight are irrelevant as tropes, but they grab the attention in the critical, establishing first lines. Edit/update: People use Alice And Bob for a reason.

    "Let's rewind farther this time"? I can't believe I'm the only one who's missing the that time rewind.
  • May 7, 2014
    partner555
    Hmm, you made four points there, so I'll deal with them in order.

    1. Firstly, I would think plot twists would be clear, though I have been worried that the name wasn't clear enough, so it's my fault you are confused, not yours, I may need to rename this thing again.

    Just to make sure you understand this trope, this trope is about showing an event from a different perspective from the perspective it was originally seen in. It must result in a very different idea of what's going on. It comes in two flavours:

    i. It leads to a plot twist.

    ii. It is specifically invoked by a character to make themselves look good and/or make someone else look bad.

    Also, I'm pretty sure twists in the plot aren't opinions.

    2. That's two tropers who say the example in the description doesn't work. I'll change it.

    3. I didn't know that. Taking that into account when rewriting the description.

    4. ... I'm an idiot for missing that.

    Editing description now. There will be two versions up there for comparison. People can compare the two versions of the descriptions and see which is better.
  • May 7, 2014
    partner555
    Ok, I have put two different versions of the description up there, so people can discuss which one works better.

    I have also stumbled on a new name when Nemuru Mae Ni said they weren't sure this was trope worthy, which probably describes this trope better then the previous alternatives. What does everyone think of the name Matter Of Perspective?
  • May 7, 2014
    DAN004
    Plot Twist is already an established term. Go use it.
  • May 7, 2014
    partner555
    But that's only half the trope. There are many examples where there's no twist, like the real life example part mentioning how this is used in politics and other related stuff.

    Using plot twist in the name will confuse people into thinking this is only about plot twists being revealed by a new perspective. It was a concern I had a few days after I changed the name the first time, and Nemuru's confusion showed that.
  • May 7, 2014
    DAN004
    Radical Pov Difference works well enough before.
  • May 7, 2014
    partner555
    Nemuru pointed out further up that using Radical might make people think only extreme examples apply.

    Disregarding the name discussion for the moment, which description do you think is better, A or B? Or do you think a little bit of A and a little bit of B to make C would work better?
  • May 7, 2014
    DAN004
    ^ B is better, methinks.

    I guess Context On Different Perspective should work, but maybe we can have something more concise. Related to It Makes Sense In Context.

    Compare Another Side Another Story and Perspective Flip, contrast No Campaign For The Wicked and No Canon For The Wicked.
  • May 7, 2014
    NemuruMaeNi
    When I tried to visualize the example from description, from the very beginning Bob and Alice appeared face-to-face, up until the point when the mention of taking sword to the chest comes, full with sword originating from the third person Charlie. Who, how, wait, the angle? Rearrangements? Very strange priorities in descriptions.

    Anyways, I try to assume that the example goes on by describing a scene visually, yes? Bad luck, i'm apparently supposed to see evil attribute of someone and then to see the assassination. Those are better go as well, unless I was wrong in my assumption about example imitating a sort of television report.

    In your own right, you could have laid out the exact lines of your thought process there, but I would find them very hard to follow. How do you advocate Charlie being and/or appearing evil? Is it because he's bloodied, scarred, has menacing attire and holds his jagged sword lodged in unarmed agonizing babyface backed by a horrified cutie? Just write those visible characteristics first, then to shift into a likely supposition that the guy is a maniac murderer. This way no article reader should have objections. Oh sure, some will and some won't be apt to instanly snark a foreshadowing "bah, a 6-year-old would know better than to stop at this". It would be their own business.

    Observer Premise Alteration?

    • Will Smith's character from Men In Black invokes this, when asked for a reason he landed a perfect headshot on a young girl target rather than monsters on a shooting range during the obscure recruit testing.
  • May 8, 2014
    partner555
    I don't think Context On Different Perspective or Observer Premise Alteration is quite as clear as Matter Of Perspective, but I listed them under list of alternative names anyway.

    Nemuru, I edited the example under B again. Is it better?

    Also, I'll be rewording your Men In Black example so it better fits with the trope.
  • May 8, 2014
    NemuruMaeNi
    Much better. Though not quite stylistically following the good editing practice (Tip 1 here, for example). And I think that punctuation rules call for commas before those "...right?" at the end of two sentences.

    edit/upd: Sherlock Scan-wielding characters avoid being on the receiving end of this trope in-universe, thanks to essentially perfect context detection.
  • May 8, 2014
    partner555
    ^ I have fixed the punctuation errors, added the Sherlock Scan trope and I also realise how this trope handles spoilers needs to change, but I'm not sure how I violated tip 1.
  • May 8, 2014
    NemuruMaeNi
    TVT style to me seems generally trying to imitate a good book (which means useful and comfortably useable as means to learn new things). With level-headedness, calm, wit. Knowing everything about the topic it goes on about. Not presuming to least bit seriously know any thing about the reader. And not expectant of readers too much.

    Other trope descriptions don't resort to things as smug as "now you see how this can be interesting, huh?" nor get so emotional they would have to use a hardly understandable "!?!?" for sentence end.

    The "..., right?" repeats twice and hints of someone uncertain (uncertainty about one's own statement, opposed to firm statement about something being uncertain). And it looks overly plain and abrasive. The same affirmation with more formality would be "isn't it?", "doesn't it?" and the like.
  • May 8, 2014
    partner555
    Time to edit the example again.
  • May 8, 2014
    partner555
    Also, can I get rid if description A? I think people support B more than A, but I don't want to do it yet in case there are people who prefer A.
  • May 8, 2014
    crazysamaritan
    Both still use Example As A Thesis to explain what the trope is, instead of giving a description and then sharing examples.
  • May 8, 2014
    Kakai
    ^^Expression B is better, but I'd add a laconic version at the beginning, just to explain. I was quite confused when I read it for the first time.

    Also, to Film:
    • In the beginning of the film LOCKOUT we see a security tape, that shows main character killing his Obi Wan. Later we see events from his perspective and it turns out "main character" was his mirror reflexion and mentor was shot by a bad guy the same moment the hero shot another baddie.
  • May 8, 2014
    megahello
    the above example of Hoodwinked should be rewritten.the original troper talks more about the ultimate villain,who was only mildly suspicious in even one of the stories, than each story having a different point of view. From Red's point of view the wolf looks just like the stalking, murderous, wolf he was in the original fairy tale, but from the wolf's perspective , he's just an investigative reporter who stalks Red because he has a lot of evidence that she has something to hide.
  • May 10, 2014
    partner555
    To address crazysamaritan's comments, I shall write up a different intro and let people decide which one is better.

    Also, can we have more discussion on the name of this trope? Matter Of Perspective seems very good though some might think otherwise.
  • May 10, 2014
    gallium
    Film
    • The first part of French film He Loves Me He Loves Me Not is told from the female protagonist's perspective, and plays like a romance. Then the film tells the same story from a more neutral point of view, and she is revealed as a deranged stalker of the male lead, who doesn't even know who she is.
  • May 10, 2014
    StarSword
    Fixed a spelling error.
  • May 11, 2014
    partner555
    Thanks.

    I'm planning to change the name soon. If anyone has any objections to Matter Of Perspective, please raise it sooner rather than later.
  • May 11, 2014
    Arivne
  • May 11, 2014
    partner555
    Do you have any objections to Matter Of Perspective?
  • May 11, 2014
    DAN004
    ^ I do. What kind of perspective? It's confusable with Depth Perplexion.
  • May 11, 2014
    partner555
    Hmm, I followed the link to Depth Perplexion, from there I followed it to Depth Deception, and Depth Deception has a note saying the latter is not to be confused with the former. Will putting a note like that be enough?
  • May 11, 2014
    DAN004
    Dunno if this is too close to One Side Of The Story.
  • May 12, 2014
    partner555
    While it looks related, that trope is specifically about one character not bothering to hear the other side of the story.
  • May 12, 2014
    NemuruMaeNi
    Seeing the description finally step into territory of abstract, I tried reworking it a bit. And it didn't go too well. I'm close to accusing the author of this ykttw of not knowing what Trope means.

    The point is, I am convinced enough that I've finally deduced the "real" (inferred by what description contains) laconic of this ykttw as follows: "Author successfully dupes the audience into having wrong impression for a moment by withholding some important things for that moment. In-universe, villains can successfully dupe others into having beneficial opinions, not necessarily just for a moment." (ykttw actually didn't say "villains", it's for the sake of reference below only)

    Tropes are supposed to be about the process writer employs, rather than about the result writer gets. A writer simply can not be sure of the future result enough to associate that result with his current templated effort. It's a universal truth due to variety of audience. But see the "successfull duping" parts in laconic, they're required to tie together two different parts.

    First part of current scope description can be reworked from result-stating into process-stating. The second one — if reworked, would fall out of line. Second part can be treated as an example of author writing that the villain succeeds at something (the fact of writing is out-of-universe). But then that would be a trope different from the trope of the first part. Once more: 1) the ykttw puts emphasis on success (radical changes, twists, things do become very different), 2) in-universe is 100% in writer's power (regardless of what audience knows by that time), 3) out-of-universe writer has no power (only appeal and very careful consideration of what the audience knows).

    Until the target phenomena are chosen more properly, there's no way to make a trope-fitting description. And if it insists on being devoted to results that author gets, it's not even a trope.
    (Rewording of example-as-a-thesis part, but it's not that relevant at the moment) "A break from sort of "single-pass" story-telling. An instance of narrating a certain portion of the story reveals not all information, which the audience is expected to base its reaction on. It should be followed with "Nth pass" or multitude of them, the new information giving room to new interpretations, for example affecting the degree of straightforwardness of narrated events."
  • May 12, 2014
    KarjamP
    ^By the logic I'm getting from you, The Reveal isn't a trope.

    In reality, the definition of trope as employed by us is storytelling conventions, not "The process the writer employs".

    The actual list of what's not a trope is at "Not A Trope", and I don't see what you're saying in that list. The closest is "Audience Reactions", which isn't what this trope's intended to be about in the first place, and even if it is, it still has a place here as long as it's not complaining.
  • May 12, 2014
    NemuruMaeNi
    ^Words are but a dress; essence of The Reveal trope is a deliberate course of action on part of the author. The essence must be a fact, not an opinion. Else, it doesn't make enough to be any thing of form, before it has to withstand the Not A Trope filter.

    Imagine the description of The Reveal go as "You know some characters are this and that, right? They're so and so, do and did, but then you're suddenly remembering that they are Big bubba hubba. And they immediately make you tingle in a different way, because they shine in a new light. They did and do not because, but because they really are that and it. And characters can do that in-universe as well to surprise others. A gold mine for suspense and plot turns."

    And slap a new name on that. "Matter of Relation", redirect from "Relation Change Plot Twist".

    Good luck writing a story with such convention.
  • May 12, 2014
    partner555
    ^ Hmm, I'm beginning to see the flaws of the Example As A Thesis intro crazysamaritan was trying to get at.

    I'll get rid of that intro and keep the alternative intro in 24 to 48 hours if no one raises any objections by then.
  • May 12, 2014
    KarjamP
    ^^This trope's not about complaining about how The Reveal is portrayed, but rather, a method of portraying The Reveal.
  • May 12, 2014
    DAN004
    ^ Sorry for interrupting, but I kinda love you two debating. :P
  • May 13, 2014
    NemuruMaeNi
    ^^ I think that one of the problems may go away if, for example, a certain author-to-audience pirouette is properly defined as the trope material and those "villains" efforts are mentioned strictly, only as invokers of the trope, but not as part of its being played straight.

    No confidence, as I don't feel at home with Playing With Tropes mechanics.
  • May 13, 2014
    Koveras
    Would this count?

    • For the first half of Fingersmith, Sue believes she and Gentleman are in process of conning Maud out of her inheritance. Then, half-way through the book, she realizes that she has been conned by Gentleman and Maud instead. The next few chapters reveal how the entire con played out from Maud's point of view.
  • May 13, 2014
    partner555
    ^ Yep

    Anyone with any objections to me getting rid of the Example As A Thesis intro? If no one raises any objections, I'll remove it.
  • May 14, 2014
    KarjamP
    If you see a "jab at the audience", NemuruMaeNi, perhaps we should consider examining the trope to see how to rewrite it so that it doesn't seem to be jabbing at them.

    Afterall, Once More With Clarity, a related trope (that, incidentally, was often misused as this one), seems to make it right, as well as Unreliable Narrator, if it's not obvious from the beginning that the Narrator's one.

    Afterall, Tropes Are Tools, and they can all be used correctly and used incorrectly.

    And if it'll help with clarity, I have no objections with the removal of the Example As A Thesis.
  • May 14, 2014
    crazysamaritan
    Okay, so I think we've clarified that Once More With Clarity is using Stock Footage of a previous scene, but the audience has a new understanding of what that scene means due to a How We Got Here story. This trope (whatever the name), is when a previous scene appears again, with The Reveal of a different perspective, changing the meaning of previous scene(s) without requiring more information.

    The two tropes are probably used to reinforce the impact of each other, but they're still distinct enough they should have separate pages. This trope is related to Perspective Flip and invoked by Wounded Gazelle Gambit, while either trope may be used by an Unreliable Narrator to skew the audience's opinion of their story.

    Once More With Clarity probably needs a visit to the Trope Description Improvements thread, so I'll try a description for each later this evening in order to help clarify what we may be looking for in examples.
  • May 14, 2014
    crazysamaritan
    Repeating the same scene can be a powerful effect, used for emphasis or drama. When the same scene plays out from a different perspective, The Reveal follows; we are learning something new that wasn't apparent when we saw the scene the first time around.

    This trope can be used to show that a character is an Unreliable Narrator, by having the new scene play out from an outside or honest perspective. Used that way, it can also be used to solve a Rashomon Style story. It can also be used this way to discover the unreliable narration was the result of False Memories.

    This is frequently an Invoked Trope by characters. Wounded Gazelle Gambit is where one character tells another a false story about their injuries in order to gain sympathy. The Summation in visual media will often reuse the same scene from a different perspective to show "what really happened" in the mystery as the detective does a Voice Over.

    A related trope is Re Cut (using the same scene multiple times in a row) and often used with Once More With Clarity (using the same scene later, when the audience has more background information to interpret the scene).
  • May 14, 2014
    partner555
    I'm removing the Example As A Thesis intro now. I'll also be going over the description of the whole trope to see where it can improved.
  • May 14, 2014
    partner555
    ^^ I didn't see your post crazysamaritan, I'll be comparing it to the current description I've just put up and see which of both to keep and which not to.
  • May 15, 2014
    MorningStar1337
    Bravely Default probably has this to an extent. The more you go through the parallel worlds the more you get to know more about the villains. these developments put some of them in the Anti Villain category. The most relevant cases would probably be Alternes Dim aka Ringabel as well as the founders of the duchy of Eternia: Braev Lee, Lord DeRosso and Sage Yulyana. as through these character's testimonies we see that the Crystal Orthodoxy and Airy are not as they initially appear, The Orthodxy is a Corrupt Church and Airy was Evil All Along and using the heroes to bring a Planet Eater to destroy the multiverse

    It's not Rashomon Style as we do not get to see the events from their POV. DeRosso told the protagonist his story via painting and the enigmatic and prophetic writings of D's Journal is written from Alternis' POV
  • May 15, 2014
    partner555
    Crazysamaritan, I added your description, though I changed Re Cut to Repeat Cut since given the context, I'm pretty sure that's what you really meant.
  • May 15, 2014
    partner555
    Also, about the name, which one works best, the current name, Matter Of Perspective, one of the other names in the list above, or some other name? Anyone?
  • May 15, 2014
    crazysamaritan
    I wrote that description to eliminate everything, not just the example in the description. You're right about Repeat Cut.

    As for naming.... I'm not sure. There's a lot of perspective tropes.

  • May 16, 2014
    partner555
    This part of the decryption, when I looked at it again, I thought it seemed out of place. Should I keep it? Remove it? Keep some and remove the rest?:

    For an example to count in order to avoid People Sit On Chairs examples, it must meet ONE of the following criteria:

    i. It leads to a Plot Twist or otherwise leads to further plot developments.

    ii. It is specifically invoked by a character to make themselves look good and/or make someone else look bad.

    For clarity, different perspectives can be broadly applied to situations such as but not limited to:

    i. Seeing events from start to finish instead of In Medias Res.

    ii. Seeing events from a different physical angle.

    iii. Seeing events from the point of view of another character.

  • May 17, 2014
    eroock
    • The French film L'Appartement (remade as Wicker Park) shows several scenes from another person's perspective during The Reveal.
    • There is a perspective change in Looper, where we first see the scene from the killer's perspective and, towards the end, from the victim's. I don't remember if there is a plot twist involved though.

  • May 18, 2014
    partner555
    ^ Plot twists are not necessary, they are one place where this trope can come from. This is why I was considering changing the name, but there wasn't a lot of discussion regarding which name would work best. Maybe I should just change it and see if anyone complains.
  • May 18, 2014
    DAN004
    ^ what does this trope lead to, other than plot twists?
  • May 18, 2014
    partner555
    ^ There were the parts where this was specifically invoked. There was also the Men In Black example, which isn't much of a twist.

    Nevertheless, I have decided that Matter Of Perspective is too vague to properly describe the trope, (which I think you mentioned as an against point towards this name somewhere above) and might better serve as the name of an index for perspective tropes.

    I have come up with a different name, what do you think of it? Same Scene Different Perspective
  • May 18, 2014
    DAN004
    ^ that may work.
  • May 18, 2014
    eroock
    If you take the plot twist away, then what quality sets it apart from Rashomon Style?
  • May 18, 2014
    KarjamP
    Rashomon Style's about different point of views being wildly different and shows how people see the events differently. "Basically, it's a cast full of Unreliable Narrators."

    This trope, in contrast, is not necessarily lying, just not showing the full context so we don't know the full story/exactly what happened.
  • May 19, 2014
    partner555
    I should add back the part which distinguishes this trope from Rashomon Style. I don't know why I removed it.

    Also, if no objections are raised, I'll rename the trope again to Same Scene Different Perspective.
  • May 19, 2014
    NemuruMaeNi
    This is going nowhere. :/ I never see a trope behind the shifting mass of text. Could anyone lay it out more clearly?

    Now that the trope-to-be is introduced as the same scene playing twice, examples clearly need to be verified again. The "Men in Black" one gets ruled out for certain, no one replays anything there. But why would it get accepted then? How can a character invoke a repetition of a scene, I wouldn't know either.
  • May 19, 2014
    crazysamaritan
    Because limiting this trope to video is unfair. You can do it literally as well. Men in Black needs to be rewritten, but it was badly written already.

    • While Detective James is being tested for entry into the titular Men In Black organization, the candidates are taken to a firing range. As the lights go out and monsters start popping up, the candidates all fire at multiple targets. Then James fires one shot. The simulation is over, and Zed asks James why "Little Sally" had to die. James then gives an alternate perspective of each of the targets, ending with evidence for why "Sally" was the only actual threat. Getting someone to Invoke this trope was the entire point of this Secret Test Of Character.
  • May 19, 2014
    partner555
    ^^ If Same Scene Different Perspective doesn't work, what about Same Event Different Perspective? Using the word event expands the applicability of this trope and doesn't require an actual replay of the scene.
  • May 19, 2014
    partner555
    I have changed the description for better clarity and readability. Is it actually better?
  • May 20, 2014
    DAN004
    ^^ me likey.
  • May 20, 2014
    partner555
    ^ Thanks, what about the new description. Is it better, and clearer, from before?
  • May 21, 2014
    partner555
    Changing name now. If anyone still has issues with the name, it is still open for debate.
  • May 24, 2014
    partner555
    Bump
  • May 25, 2014
    lufan131
    Maybe, for the new name, "looks familiar somehow" or "through their eyes"?
  • May 25, 2014
    partner555
    "Looks Familiar Somehow" doesn't describe this trope. "Through Their Eyes" on the other hand does but it is too restrictive.

    You could tell me how this trope should handle spoilers though. Is this such an inherently spoilerific trope that instead of adding spoiler tags, we just give a spoiler warning or should we go with the spoiler tag option?
  • May 25, 2014
    randomsurfer
    Please elaborate on how this differs from Switching POV.
  • May 26, 2014
    partner555
    ^ There is overlap but this one is specifically about seeing the same events from a different perspective while the linked trope is specifically about switching viewpoints and focus for a while for the sake of the story.

    Adding the distinction to reduce confusion now.
  • May 26, 2014
    randomsurfer
    In Buffy The Vampire Slayer "Same Time Same Place" Willow comes back to Sunnydale. She goes to see Spike, who is crazy in the Sunnydale High School basement, and he gives nonsensical responses to her. A few minutes later Buffy comes to see Spike and he gives the exact same nonsensical responses. We discover it's actually the same scene - Willow and Buffy can't see each other.
    Spike: Everyone's talking to me. No one's talking to each other.
  • May 26, 2014
    partner555
    Hmm, I have five hats, which means I could theoretically launch now, but there is one more thing to discuss before I do.

    How should this trope handle spoilers? Should this trope have spoiler tags for the examples where needed or is this trope so prone to spoilers that a spoiler warning at the top before the example section is enough?
  • May 26, 2014
    DAN004
    If you think this trope would have lots of twists, it is enough to leave unmarked spoilers and a note about it.
  • May 26, 2014
    partner555
    ^ I guess I'll review the examples here then.
  • May 26, 2014
    partner555
    Ok, most examples have twists involved, so a spoiler warning at the beginning should be enough. If anyone disagrees, I'm not going to launch for a few days or so, so there is still time for debate.
  • May 27, 2014
    Arivne
    I agree with adding a spoiler warning.
  • May 27, 2014
    partner555
    ^ Ok.
  • May 27, 2014
    Dalillama
    Edited to add detail
    • The Frasier episode Perspectives on Christmas retells the same events through the eyes of different characters, each of whom has their own interpretation of events based on their limited knowledge. Most notably, Daphne believes that Martin is dying, due to him having gotten a phone call from the doctor and spending time in church without telling anyone. From Frasier's perspective, we see Martin complaining about having been roped into the Christmas pageant at a local church by a friend from the dog park, and didn't want anyone he knew seeing him there.
  • May 27, 2014
    Tuckerscreator
    • The book and film Atonement relies on this to set off conflict. Early on Briony looks out the window to see her older sister Cecilia in soaked undergarments while her male friend Robbie is watching, and thinks Robbie is harassing her. Later she spots the two of them busy in the library and thinks Robbie is raping her sister. However, both events were in fact consensual, as the audience sees in repeats of those scenes from the couple's point-of-view.
  • May 28, 2014
    partner555
    I think I'll launch this on the weekend. If anyone wants to add some last minute comments, they have until Sunday, Perth Australia time.
  • May 30, 2014
    NemuruMaeNi
    If I saw this launched, I'd call it broken from the start. Sorry for leaving yet another Wall Of Text (I'd say it's pretty low-height, but...). Feel free not to read it, the short version is "This trope candidate has no description of the trope".
    In "Repeating the same scene can be a powerful effect, used for emphasis or drama. When the same event plays out from a different perspective, The Reveal follows; we are learning something new that wasn't apparent when we saw the event the first time around.

    This trope can be used <...>" New paragraph starting with "This trope can be used..." indicates that all there was to provide about intended trope basics has already been provided.

    Not much of a description we end up with. "Powerful effect" words are empty, opinionated. All they do is dropping heavy boulders at the ideal of being concise already falling down the bottomless chasm. Description should show what the described thing is and how to recognize it. Instead it has how something else can be yet another something else.

    If repeating the same scene part is what this trope entails, it contradicts the following statement of its being able to be invoked by characters. If it isn't, then description is misleading.

    What is meant by "playing out" in the when the same event plays out from a different perspective part? Audience is being shown the same event several times? Or maybe the audience later finds out something about an event and is supposed to play that even out again in mind, with this new knowledge applied? No clarity at all.

    Who is this "we" in the we are learning something new that wasn't apparent when we saw the event the first time around? You'll never guess who I consider myself to be, so you'll never even find an answer which would make the line a comfortable read. Declaring the editorial "we" to be able to learn something is pushing it hard. Leave the "we" out of it. "It is not a forum so don't write in first person."
    With no basics, it's as good as having no description. And without description people provided examples based on keywords, it's wrong to assume they testify to fully understanding the text. (hats? likely a result of nice visual impression, not logic)

    In absence of description, examples have nothing to connect to and compare with, yet attempts at description solidification will likely result in discarding some examples due to visible contradictions.
    "Tiffany" in Men in Black example was a Censor Decoy, right? Or did someone rewrite the example not having an idea of the actual footage? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRXNNqNfQBs
  • May 30, 2014
    crazysamaritan
    I'll handle this, since most of the wording you're objecting to is mine.

    First, thanks for the video link. While I did remember the events correctly, I didn't recall the names at all accurately. The scene is not Censor Decoy. Edward passed the test because he was the only recruit actually thinking before he fired. The explanation is an example of the invoked version of this trope. The same scene plays out, only instead of seeing what happened the first time, we see the "monsters" remaining still as Edward narrates his internal thoughts.

    The same scene plays out differently than it did the last time, with a new perspective being shown. Sometimes it is a camera angle, sometimes it is pacing, but we see something that wasn't there the first time. We didn't see Edward's thoughts during the first time the scene played out (went from start to end). The second time we see the scene, we learn something new: what Edward was thinking.

    I've seen the mods explain the difference between authorial intent and first-person writing so I'm fairly sure I did that part correctly.

    Now, the meat of the definition: you have correctly seen it, yet it isn't clear enough. "Something else can be yet another something else.". Yes, "one scene can yet be a different scene". The previous perspective (Edward and the recruits in a pop-up target range testing reflexes) we learn was actually (testing their ability to discriminate targets based on behaviour, not appearance).

    With this explanation, do you have any advice?
  • May 30, 2014
    NemuruMaeNi
    Oh nice, my wall of text is lost to a misclick, and chance to rebuild it would come next week at best. Just the highlights then.

    You're strongly subjective in your interpretation of the scene from MIB. Especially if someone word-for-word follows your proposed take and compares with what is and what isn't actually shown in the film.

    Censor Decoy stuff was about different degree of insults hiding in different possible explanations for a mistaken name mention.

    I've played Little Busters, its example here is irrelevant (poster reacted to keywords, I'm fairly sure he's off the mark on the intended trope candidate scope), but the game has a multitude of various specific exploits of single perspective limitations. If this trope candidate had shape, it would likely have already got reflection in that game.

    One approach to definition (or keeping track of planting perspective-playing trope into works) I think would be to isolate participants in-universe and out-of-universe, then list what they all knew "before", then assign what they know "after" (it can be more, it can be less than before), then assign (give the opportunity in case of audience) who and how/why gets the knowledge change after the instance of the trope is played.
  • May 30, 2014
    partner555
    @NemuruMaeNi, I have attempted to address your concerns and adjusted the description. I have also removed the Men In Black example since thinking through it more thoroughly, it's not much of an example. I also removed the Little Busters example since I haven't played it and can't make the example work myself.
  • May 30, 2014
    crazysamaritan
    I'd actually like to discuss the Men in Black example some more. This is very important, and may determine how this trope handles the visual component and if characters are able to invoke this trope.

    Please give an explanation for why you feel Men in Black fails this trope. Right now, all I see from you is "it doesn't work". There's nothing I can refute or admit, only blindly disagree with.
  • May 30, 2014
    partner555
    ^ Very well then. We shall go over the criteria again. An event is seen from one perspective, before being seen from another perspective, resulting in a twist OR a character made to look good and/or another character made to look bad.

    In the Men In Black example, we see the scene from an unenlightened perspective before James gives us a more enlightened view of the event, leading to the revelation that he was right to shoot Tiffany.

    Hmm, perhaps I was too hasty in removing it but I want Nemuru to agree to it first since it is a point of contention and I really want to resolve all those first before I launch it.
  • May 30, 2014
    KarjamP
    Well, you already seem to lost three hats, so...

    Anyway, I think the trouble's more him not getting the gist of the trope than anything else - he's the only one complaining so far.

    Not to say he's in the wrong, of course, but I wouldn't just follow his advice he made in contention unless I can tell he has a point. It's easier to tell if he has a point if more than one person agrees with him, or the mods back him up. That, and with reasoning.
  • May 30, 2014
    Larkmarn
    My issue is that this trope is absolutely all over the place. The laconic is just plain Rashomon Style. The title and many examples are Once More With Clarity. And some of the examples are just "well, he lied."

    It's also unclear if this is about this occurring in the narrative, or if the creator is using a certain repetitive film technique.
  • May 30, 2014
    crazysamaritan
    ^^^ I would personally use objective/personal instead of unenlightened/enlightened, but that's essentially my case.

    ^^ Agreed, but I feel reasonable debate more effective at understanding a subject than general agreement. General agreement causes issues like ^ describes, as everyone "pretty much" understands the discussion, without being specific.

    ^ From reading Once More With Clarity while I was writing a new definition for this trope, I got the understanding of that trope containing no new information. No new perspective is introduced. The scene from Episode One is used again exactly the same in Episode Fourteen, but now the audience has episodes 2 through 13 worth of information, which changes the meaning of the event. Like watching a movie a second time after you're aware of the twist ending.
  • May 30, 2014
    kjnoren
    The description absolutely must be shortened a lot, the description is far too rambling and unfocused. Several sentences starting with "this trope is" is to me a clear marker of a description that needs to be improved.

    The MIB scene is to me not an example, it is simply walking through the previous scene, it is not the same scene (or set of events) showed twice from different perspectives.

    A more interesting example to me is Film/Hero, where the same "events" are retold several times, each time ostensibly more truthfully.

    Literature:

    • In The Gypsy by Steven Brust and Megan Lindholm a conversation between Cig├íny (The Gypsy) and Stepovich (The Wolf) is told from both viewpoints one after each other. Both viewpoints leave out a lot of what happens in the other telling, reinforcing the extremely disparate interpretations the two characters have of the conversation.
  • May 30, 2014
    crazysamaritan
    "walking through the previous scene" — This! This! is how SEDP becomes an Invoked Trope. We had an objective (3rd person observer) viewpoint for the scene and a character (or narrator but not for MiB) walked through the same scene sharing their perspective with the audience.

    I'm not familiar with your two works, although The Gypsy sounds like Rashomon Style.

    I intended the definition to be half the current length. The distinction between the two events that I would use is that Rashomon Style is a Narration trope, while Same Event Different Perspective is a The Reveal trope. SEDP must include new information, but RS must include Unreliable Narrator.
  • May 31, 2014
    kjnoren
    Looking at Rashomon Style, I think you make an impossible distinction, and that that trope is very poorly named.
  • May 31, 2014
    KarjamP
    Rashamon Style is a sister trope to this one, but not exactly the same: Rashamon Style is about different characters recounting the events differently than each other and are usually wildly different when compared together. "Basically, it's a cast full of Unreliable Narrators."

    This trope's about the same scene, but played within a different perspective. Both perspectives aren't lying, but they are also not revealing the full story.

    Hoodwinked showed some examples within the story:
    • Red phones her granny twice during the story: the first one, you'd only find out Granny was about to go to the extreme sports competition to participate within her point of view (the camera zooms out as soon as she put down the phone). The second time, Red phoned Granny, and the way Granny talked made Red worry something bad might've happened to her. Within Granny's POV, however, you'd discover that Granny was within an action sequence trying to defend herself against the Big Bad's minions, and was thus skiing down the mountain at the time (thus, explaining her yelling "Banzai!" at the end of the phone call).
    • It also reveals that Granny's the one that caused the (previously thought to be a random) avalanche within the mountain side that Red and the Goat was riding a minecart through.
    • Another Granny POV reveal: What was previously thought to be Red imagining Granny giving her advice to use her hood as a parachute is now revealed to actually be the real deal using an actual parachute herself to glide down to safety when she jumped off the mountain.
    • Another POV reveal, but with a different character: Wolf's POV, reveals why the minecraft rail track was broken within Red's POV: When Wolf and Twitchy discovered that the candles they lit were actually dynamite, they quickly chucked some behind them so that they don't accidentally kill themselves with the explosions.

    Agreed, but I feel reasonable debate more effective at understanding a subject than general agreement. General agreement causes issues like ^ describes, as everyone "pretty much" understands the discussion, without being specific.
    True enough, not saying reasonable debates aren't a good thing. In fact, they can actually help us into understanding the trope better.
  • May 31, 2014
    crazysamaritan
    Rashomon Style would have inconsistencies: something true in one POV is false in another. In Hoodwinked, none of the POV are false, just incomplete.
  • May 31, 2014
    KarjamP
    Whoops, forgot to clarify I meant Hoodwinked to be an example of this trope.
  • May 31, 2014
    eroock
    There's a couple of movies, however, I can't be bothered with adding explanations. Maybe somebody else can pick up here.

    Films employing the same scene from different perspectives:
    • 11:14
    • Amores Perros (the car accident)
    • Atonement (the fountain scene)
    • Back to the Future II (overlapping with actions from part 1)
    • Elephant (prime example)
    • Ghost Dog
    • Jackie Brown (prime example)
    • Pulp Fiction (diner scene)
    • Schizopolis
    • Timecrimes
    • Lovers of the Arctic Circle
    • Twelve Monkeys (airport scene)
  • June 1, 2014
    Chabal2
    In Universe in Harry Potter. Harry thinks he's been saved by the ghost of his father. Later he goes back in time and realizes he saw himself.
  • June 1, 2014
    KarjamP
    That's technically out of universe as well, Chabal - we also don't find out that it's Harry Potter's future self saving him until we get to see said future self's point of view.
  • June 1, 2014
    crazysamaritan
    An unusual example, as the perspective is still Harry's. That's Stable Time Loop Time Travel for you.
  • June 2, 2014
    KarjamP
    To tell the truth, the entire POV of the future Harry Potter is this trope.

    Hmm, perhaps Stable Time Loop itself can overlap with this trope from the POV of the time traveler?
  • June 2, 2014
    NemuruMaeNi
    How about this approach? (I bolded some parts to make tendency obvious)

    "Repeating the same scene can be a powerful effect, used for emphasis or drama. Sometimes however, the same event is viewed from a different perspective and something new was learned that wasn't apparent when we saw the event the first time around. This trope is about how seeing or experiencing events again, only this time, from a different perspective, can result in very, VERY different ideas on what's going on. This can be done to show a twist in the story or be used to make one character look good and/or make another character look bad. This trope can be used to show that a character is an Unreliable Narrator, by having the new scene play out from an outside or honest perspective. It can also be used this way to discover the unreliable narration was the result of False Memories."

    Before exploring possibility of various applications, a description should have a definition of what to actually look out for in a text, or a show. See established tropes' pages. Before going all out on "if"s, "can"s, "sometimes"s, they start with something solid, essential, core.

    To be blunt, the essence of this "trope" is in the dark. Which allows to shoehorn quite various examples in.
    In regards to 2014-05-30 08:56:14 by crazysamaritan. In Men in Black there were no repeats (I'm trying to grab at straws from the description), Edwards just answered the question. The film does not say he made the right decision (or guessed the decision required). If anything, the relevance of this test to end-result is handwaved by Agent K having gone on to remind Zed about Edwards' success in chasing down a very agile alien. Edwards has just made an argueably outrageous move (shoot a little girl representation to death), demonstrated good marksmanship and problems with his attitude (sort of lampshaded by Zed, no time is wasted to further explain that on-screen though), got a chance to explain himself and used that chance to spin a tale. To what extend the tale is true — you don't know.

    There's no "same scene" "same events" "same whatever" in MiB case. You can't match the wit of Edwards, because you're not shown any details Edwards is pointing out to Zed (accompanied by camera focusing on them) before they've already filled everything with bullets. No replays, no double takes, no reminiscence, no nothing. Railroad through difference compared to other recruits, semi-superficial outrageousness, and being unfazed by and defiant to an overbearing proctor who he has little idea about. Whose perspectives are different from whose here? Edwards' from other participants'? Maybe. But was that the trope? Context wording did not imply that at all. And, not to forget, description-like mass of text also has a part about "learning something new" for the audience by comparing the two perspectives (it looked near-paramount earlier). Nothing to trope in that regard as no matter how similar or different two things are, when you're first being given one thing and then being given the second, you're being given something new.
  • June 2, 2014
    NemuruMaeNi
    Ah, just one more thing, it's not a plot twist, I think you'll agree. But neither Edwards is portraying others in bad light, while making himself look good. He's not competing. Or can you prove he is?
  • June 2, 2014
    KarjamP
    Should we still keep on debating whenever Men In Black is an example or not?

    I think we should focus on improving an article, not on debating whenever something is really an example.
  • June 2, 2014
    partner555
    Guys, while trying to rewrite the laconic a few days ago, I found out that I was going over the limit of how much the laconic can contain when I tried to include the part where this is used to make a character look good and/or make another character look bad. This incident forced me to go over the trope again, and it makes me realise that the gaining new info from a new perspective and making another character look better/worse are two separate things.

    For this reason, I'm thinking of removing the latter while keeping the former.

    There is of course, room for discussion but you'd need to have good arguments to convince me the make a character look better/worse portion should be retained as a part of this trope.
  • June 2, 2014
    crazysamaritan
    In Men in Black there were no repeats (I'm trying to grab at straws from the description), Edwards just answered the question. There's no "same scene" "same events" "same whatever" in MiB case. You can't match the wit of Edwards, because you're not shown any details Edwards is pointing out to Zed (accompanied by camera focusing on them) before they've already filled everything with bullets. No replays, no double takes, no reminiscence, no nothing.
    Reminiscence is exactly what happened. Are you having a problem because MiB nested a Story within a Story, like a Russian nesting doll, instead of using voiceover narration of a Flash Back?

    The Audience got a different perspective. That is the point. "We" means "the audience".
    • When the same scene plays out from a different perspective, The Reveal follows; we are learning something new that wasn't apparent when we saw the scene the first time around.
  • June 2, 2014
    DAN004
    Mind=blown
  • June 2, 2014
    partner555
    ^^ Um, crazysamaritan, the description was changed again.

    Also, leaving aside the MIB example for now, I was thinking of removing the "make a character look good and/or bad" part since I couldn't fit it in the laconic when I tried to rewrite it after someone brought to my attention how it is easily mistaken with Rashomon Style. This tells me that there's too much to the trope and some part of it should be removed. What's your opinion on that?
  • June 2, 2014
    NemuruMaeNi
    ^^^ Would you prefer to give something more solid than "scene plays out" or rather have to list here every time some girl asked her boyfriend "Hey! did you just flirt with her when you have me?" and get a moment of him reminiscing in the form of an answer "No, I just said 'Hi' to her, that's all"?

    In MiB, did Edwards invoke the trope or was this a straight play?
  • June 2, 2014
    crazysamaritan
    Remove the "good/bad" portion. That was something you tried adding to, not something I saw communicated.
  • June 2, 2014
    partner555
    ^ Ok. I have removed the portion of this trope that involved making a character look good/bad, including the examples that fell under that category.
  • June 2, 2014
    crazysamaritan
    ^^^ again, I've called it Invoked Trope. I don't understand the first question enough to answer it.
  • June 2, 2014
    NemuruMaeNi
    ^ So it's like Edwards acted this way because he knew how other people at the shooting range saw his actions at that point. He chose to give them an explanation different from theirs (his own perspective or something) to sway their final ideas about him. Is this what you imply by calling him having invoked the trope(-candidate)?
  • June 2, 2014
    KarjamP
    ^Um, shouldn't we instead, be debating about the article itself rather than whether Men In Black is an example?

    It's as if determining whenever something's an example or not is Serious Business to you, Nemuru.
  • June 3, 2014
    partner555
    ^ Agreed, for now, lets drop the example debate and focus on the description. So far, I only had feedback from one person in removing the make someone look good/bad thing. Any other feedback with regards to that?
  • June 3, 2014
    crazysamaritan
    ^^^ That rephrasing is close enough to my intent, yes.

    ^^ because the definition was not clear enough, using an example can make the trope easier to understand. That's why it seems so easy to use Example As A Thesis to explain a trope. If I did my job right, Nemuru will be able to contribute ideas on wording a definition.
  • June 5, 2014
    partner555
    Bump
  • June 6, 2014
    NemuruMaeNi
    The trope is better described as "Bait Into Misunderstanding".

    The straightforward, simple appoach to storytelling when a narration of something occurs, followed by narration recipient processing the received information... *long pause*... is not enough anymore. What looks like a narration of something — is actually a part, the first part, or the obvious part of the actual, complex narration. The recipient does have time to process that first part separately and come to his own conclusions, opinions and ideas. But common-sense processing will lead to the wrong understanding, different from the final intended one. The second part of narration gets incorporated later and when that part is processed together with the first, the results are definitely different. Some would call it a different perspective on the same events.

    Variations exist aimed at the Audience, at in-universe characters or combinations of both at the same time. It works best on unprepared, trusting targets (who still need to be knowledgeable enough to readjust after receiving the second part). It doesn't work on unintelligent, rigid or pedantic targets.

    Truth In Television. Intentional use of this trope contrasts with pure manipulations common for politicians, who set up the big good white fluffy first part never telling a lie, but not intending to deliver the second part either. Of course, even if the second part is there, it can be a disguise loaded with its own glossing-over, but then this manipulation has a merit of likely being less recognizable. Other than manipulations, in education, this trope can be used to efficiently highlight the vital points. Intended incorrect interpretation of the first part can then be given a form of rhetorical question by the teacher. This trope loses a great deal of impact on targets incapable of self-reflection.

    To follow the net of such baits through the works that you already know beforehand (rereading or watching an adaptation) is often a pleasure of its own.

    A plethora of tropes are specific variations of this pattern recognized for one or more of the following. The nature and the size of the gap between two parts of narration. Reasons (justification) for causing the misunderstanding. Direction of misinterpretation (recipient thinks the situation is better/worse than it really is) Other details of misinterpretation. Sources of second part revelation. Reaction to having been lead on. Details of playing the trope on the in-universe characters and/or the Audience simultaneously. Presence of foreshadowing.
  • June 6, 2014
    NemuruMaeNi
    • Yu Yu Hakusho: When Sensui (The Big Bad from penultimate arc, and Yusuke's direct predecessor Spirit Detective) reveals to have gone rogue because Humans Are The Real Monsters, in Sensui's face Yusuke subverts the in-universe part of the trope at its final step: he says he couldn't care less about that, all he's in for is getting into good fights.

    • Admiral Benson in Hot Shots speaks of his own piloting time when he's giving a speech in front of the pilots about to go to a mission. He then throws a sentiment that seeing them makes him think of what he wouldn't give to be 20 years younger,.. *short pause* and a woman.

    • In Mafia! (a movie also known as Jane Austen's Mafia!), a reassuring line directed at the victim of an attempted murder, "You lost a lot of blood, but we found most of it."

    • Edwards in Men In Black exploits this trope in the gunshooting test of MiB applicants. He shoots a "little girl" target, and explains later how the minor details of the "monster" targets made it wrong for him to see them as a threat.

    • "Stan" by Eminem starts as a series of increasingly annoyed unanswered fan letters to Eminem, culminating in an unsent message as the fan kills himself and his pregnant wife. Final verse has Eminem writing a reply, which shows (this trope is played on the audience) that Eminem did read the letters, he sends an autographed cap for fan's brother, he's glad fan's girl will have a baby, he apologizes for the late reply saying he's been busy. Eminem starts to point out the alarming parts of the letters he received, pleads to his fan to seek counselling, hopes to be in time before something bad happens, outright calls his fan wrong on a few accounts. Finally, and as an in-universe example, Eminem proceeds to recall a recent car accident with deaths his fan should probably take to mind, only to realize in the middle of it, that the guy from the accident was the same fan Eminem's been writing the letter to.

    • In To-Love-Ru Darkness, Momo declares the Harem (herself included) Plan as her goal, even tells Rito about it (for him to get ready), often acts suggestive and teasing towards him, she's keen on pervertedness. Yet at some point a situation comes when she gets very much close to consummating the relationship between her and Rito, and she does get flustered and nervous unable to proceed.
  • June 7, 2014
    partner555
    ^^ Hmm, your description, the first paragraph at least, is a bit difficult to follow and seems to make this broader. I'm not sure if that is a good or bad thing. Beyond that, I think it might work.

    Everybody else, what do you think?
  • June 7, 2014
    DAN004
    If possible, I think it's better to restart the ykttw and continue debates there. I mean, this one's clogged with Walls Of Text in the comments already, which might put off many people...
  • June 8, 2014
    partner555
    ^ Very well, but I won't do it yet.

    Maybe I'll even let somebody else take over this trope, to give the new YKTTW and extra sense of freshness.
  • June 9, 2014
    NemuruMaeNi
    ^^^ It was a suggesstion. Feel free to refuse it at all, or in parts. Furthermore, the self-demonstration was a not really needed last-minute addition and it came out not too good. Nothing should be treated as polished end-product material.

    On the point of broadness, I recall this ykttw having "a goldmine" reference to the proposed trope. It might pass off into No Trope Is Too Common territory. Or it might be worthy to get drowned in examples for a while and have chunks with similarities eventually grow into sub-tropes. (It would rely on persistent activity though, which I'm not too optimistic about)

    If you have a reasonable explanation regarding what would get broadened (in your opinion), please share.
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