Created By: andy999999999 on May 11, 2013 Last Edited By: Arivne on May 12, 2013

The South Had Better Guns This Time

What would happen if the Confederate States won the American Civil War?

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Trope
A work in the present day in which the South won the American Civil War the first time. [this trope's name]'s Sister Trope is Divided States of America, which is when the South lost the Civil War only to come back with a vengeance and win the second time around.

The reason for their victory could be as simple as a message reaching its destination or as insane as time-traveling racists bearing AK-47's. A work is in the [this trope's name] whenever the South won the first time through, which includes Historical Fiction war stories and Contemporary Fiction in an Alternate History.

Compare Divided States of America for the reasons above. As a subtrope of Alternate History, contrast other USA alternates as well."

Examples

Literature
  • If The South Had Won The Civil War is Exactly What It Says on the Tin.
  • The Guns of the South, by Harry Turtledove, is a nice sci-fi twist on the trope. Time-traveling racists bring modern day weapons, and help the South win.
  • How Few Remain, also by Turtledove, diverges from normal history with this scenario: Special Order 191, containing important information about Southern troop movements, was NOT intercepted by the Union (thus, allowing the South to win). This story follows the lives of several characters, including Douglass Adams, Abraham Lincoln, and Stonewall Jackson, during what is basically a second Civil War.
  • One that takes a totally different turn is Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter. This book is completely true to its name. Not to be confused with Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter, the movie.

Film
  • CSA: The Confederate States of America is a mockumentary exploring a version of this where the Confederates not only won the Civil War, but conquered the North as well. They turn into a full-on Evil Empire, imposing a thoroughly racist and misogynist government on the former United States and placing Latin America under an apartheid regime. Then they join the Axis Powers in World War II, and so on and so forth.

Do We Have This One??
Community Feedback Replies: 13
  • May 11, 2013
    DunDun
    If it is so common a setting, then why can you not list any examples of it happening?
  • May 11, 2013
    Larkmarn
    I could've sworn we had this... but either way, the name is just awful.
  • May 11, 2013
    andy999999999
    Right, I almost forgot some examples. And I agree about the name. It was just the first thing that popped into my head when reading The Guns of the South.

    Also, I'm trying to learn the style and markup, but I'm not totally solid on it yet. Sorry if there are any glaring errors!
  • May 11, 2013
    Lyendith
    If it is a trope, it would be a subtrope of Alternate History I guess.

    edit: oh, never mind, it's already mentioned >__<
  • May 11, 2013
    DunDun
    To help the description, since I think this is as valid as any other setting-era trope (now that there are examples of it):

    "A work in the present day in which the South won the AmericanCivilWar the first time. [this trope's name]'s SisterTrope is DividedStatesOfAmerica, which is when the South ''lost'' the Civil War only to come back with a vengeance and win the second time around.

    "The reason for their victory could be as simple as [[Literature/HowFewRemain a message reaching it's destination]] or as insane as time-traveling racists bearing AK-47's. A work is in the [this trope's name] whenever the South won the first time through, which includes HistoricalFiction war stories and ContemporaryFiction in an AlternateHistory.

    "Compare DividedStatesOfAmerica for the reasons above. As a subtrope of AlternateHistory, contrast [[AlternateHistoryTropes other USA alternates as well]]."
  • May 11, 2013
    WackyMeetsPractical
    Is this a common enough Alternate History to have it's own page? Alternate History does mention this scenario as a possible alternate history, so any examples should go there if it isn't already. I don't think there's enough to split it off, and if we do, we'd have to do the same for every other possible alternate history with three or four examples, which would make for a lot of subpages. I don't think it's necessary.
  • May 11, 2013
    m8e
  • May 11, 2013
    DunDun
    ^^I think that there are always going to be more and more Alternate Histories as time goes on--if not by the mere passage of time then by people thinking of various possibilities no one thought to draft before. I don't think we need to list every possible AH, but when someone thinks up a draft for one, I don't think we should shoot the idea down just because it could have been any Alternate History.

    Also--as an aside to the OP--I put noparse markup in there so OP could just copy+paste it; they were saying something about not really knowing how to use the site so...
  • May 11, 2013
    andy999999999
    Thanks to Dundun for acing up the description! It reads a whole lot better now. I agree that it might end up being too specific. But, if there are enough examples, then it would be good to have them all collected under one banner. Who knows who may come searching for such a thing some day?
  • May 11, 2013
    pixelpunk
    Yeah, if this get's its own page then all the other examples listed on Alternate History should get their own pages. I don't know if that's necessary. That said, for a title how about The South Wins the War? I know it's not poetry, but I think it's effective in its simplicity.
  • May 11, 2013
    StarSword
    Film:
    • CSA The Confederate States Of America is a mockumentary exploring a version of this where the Confederates not only won the Civil War, but conquered the North as well. They turn into a full-on Evil Empire, imposing a thoroughly racist and misogynist government on the former United States and placing Latin America under an apartheid regime. Then they join the Axis Powers in World War II, and so on and so forth.
  • May 11, 2013
    andy999999999
    I like how simple your name suggestion is, pixelpunk. I was considering a few other names, myself, although I think they're any good. Something like "CSA Beat Us, Eh?" or "CSA: Continued Slave America". Yeah, maybe we should just go with yours.
  • May 11, 2013
    DunDun
    I agree that if we allow one that we should allow others, but I do not agree that if we allow one then we must start a project to create pages for all the other alternate histories. I'm saying that if they come along and have enough examples, they should be allowed. This is beginning to sound like a question for Ask The Tropers...
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=kdavnbdpbdqfmsq402jtsyrl