Created By: Praetyre on February 8, 2009
Nuked

Rename Cosmic Horror to Cosmic Horror Story

Name Space:
Main
Page Type:
Trope
Because the current title makes me confused about it's status with Eldritch Abomination, which are the iconic characters in said stories.
Community Feedback Replies: 67
  • February 8, 2009
    dotchan
    • Sheepishly raises hand* I get those two tropes mixed up all the time. And I'm sure there are a lot of wicks to Cosmic Horror that would go better in Eldritch Abomination.
  • February 8, 2009
    Citizen
    Cosmic Horror is just a snappier name. I didn't realize we had a separate Eldritch Abomination page. =P
  • February 8, 2009
    MetaFour
    Eldritch Abomination was created precisely because people were using the term to refer to the monsters rather than the genre.
  • February 8, 2009
    Goldfritha
    Support the name change.
  • February 8, 2009
    Reg Shoe
    1 for this. I had to ask here for the difference.
  • February 8, 2009
    Kuciwalker
    Yeah, this is a better solution than what we came up with last time (the Eldritch Abomination page).
  • February 8, 2009
    Haven
    I was just thinking how much this bugged me. I think "Cosmic Horror" deserves to stay as the name, but I don't know how we can get the association that it's the monster, not the genre, out of people's heads without the power to put anyone who uses the phrase "so he killed a Cosmic Horror" in the stockades.

    ...^^
  • February 8, 2009
    alliterator
    Yes, "horror" is a genre, so calling it "cosmic horror" makes sense, yet even I get it mixed up with Eldritch Abomination. Calling it Cosmic Horror Genre or Cosmic Horror Stories doesn't sound right though. Hmmm. This is a pickle.
  • February 9, 2009
    Meiriona
    Eh, Cosmic Horror is the genre, Eldritch Abomination is the character. Just needs a more clear note on the page is all.
  • February 9, 2009
    Madrugada
    The first problem is that assumes that everyone reads every trope before the link to it. Many don't.

    The second problem is that Cosmic Horror sounds like a bigger, badder Eldritch Abomination. So isupport the name change, and suggest Cosmic Horror Story
  • February 9, 2009
    DragonQuestZ
    "The first problem is that assumes that everyone reads every trope before the link to it. Many don't."

    I got so much resistance to a couple name changes because tropers assumed people would actually read pages to know the difference.
  • February 10, 2009
    Unknown Troper
    What really needs to be done is changing the picture. The picture in Cosmic Horror entry explicitly features an Elderich Abomination.
  • February 10, 2009
    Antheia
    The image caption on the Eldritch Abomination page doesn't help much either...
  • February 10, 2009
    Madrugada
    Hmmm. I had a nice detailed reply and it went poof. Pout.

    @DQZ: I know you did, and I probably contributed to it. I apologize if I was harsh.

    However, here's how I think that we can fix this, so that it stays fixed ,even if people don't read the tropes they're linking to.

    And, as a bonus, it will tend to be self-fixing in the future, because those people who don't check to make sure that they're linking to the page they really want and use Cosmic Horror will be sent to the page that, 90 times out of a hundred, will be the correct page. Those people who do check will see the sentence about the new name for the genre.

    I just checked the first 20 hits on the search page for Pages with Regular Titles: There were 2 that used it correctly. That's 10% and I seriously doubt that it will go any higher then that.
  • February 10, 2009
    Goldfritha
    Humm. Perhaps we need a cooler name than Cosmic Horror Genre.

    Perhaps Cosmos Of Horror?
  • February 10, 2009
    Madrugada
    If it was entirely up to me, I'd call it something like Lovecraftian Horror, Lovecraftian Horror Story, or Lovecraftian World. His name is the most recognizable -- anyone who reads, watches or plays this genre is almost certain to know it.

    Of those three, I like Lovecraftian Horror best, but Lovecraftian Horror Story is clearest.
  • February 10, 2009
    alliterator
    Cosmos Of Horror sounds like a horrible universe, though, not a genre of fiction.

    The Other Wiki calls Cosmic Horror "Cosmicism" and that HP Lovecraft wrote "weird fiction." For some reason, I like Cosmic Horror Show (with the added benefit that it references both The Rocky Horror Picture Show and A Clockwork Orange).
  • February 10, 2009
    BlackHumor
    I vote for Lovecraftian Horror.
  • February 11, 2009
    Praetyre
    Lovecraftian Horror still makes me think of the creature, not the genre. We need something that more clearly demarcates "No, this is not the creature, but the genre"
  • February 11, 2009
    Madrugada
    Yeah, I think that we really need a word like "fiction" or "story" in the genre name; Lovecraftian Horror can be used about the critters without sounding odd ("They battle a Lovecraftian Horror with tentacles..."). But "They battle a Lovecraftian Horror Story with tentacles..."? No one's going to write that by accident and not notice it.

    Weird Fiction or Lovecraftian Weird Fiction?
  • February 12, 2009
    Madrugada
    Things go

    BUMP

    in the night
  • February 14, 2009
    BlackHumor
  • February 14, 2009
    alliterator
    I think Cosmic Horror Story sounds better, though.
  • February 14, 2009
    Madrugada
    I took a look at The Other Wiki's page on Weird Fiction, and I think that that may really be the best name for this. It's already an established term for the genre -- it's been in use for almost 80 years. We can add redirects as (if) they become necessary.

    "The true weird tale has something more than secret murder, bloody bones, or a sheeted form clanking chains according to rule. A certain atmosphere of breathless and unexplainable dread of outer, unknown forces must be present; and there must be a hint, expressed with a seriousness and portentousness becoming its subject, of that most terrible conception of the human brain--a malign and particular suspension or defeat of those fixed laws of Nature which are our only safeguard against the assaults of chaos and the daemons of unplumbed space."
  • February 14, 2009
    alliterator
    Hmmm. So far, this rename is going a lot better than Jonas Quinn.

    Options so far:

    I agree, the last one does sound the best and it would stop getting confused with Eldritch Abomination.
  • February 14, 2009
    Madrugada
    Lovecraftian Horror won't fix the problem. I've already changed two "Lovecraftian Horror" potholes I stumbled onto that were to Cosmic Horror when they should have been to Eldritch Abomination. I'm sure there are more.
  • February 14, 2009
    Praetyre
    Weird Fiction sounds a bit too close to Widget Series for my liking.
  • February 14, 2009
    BlackHumor
    It's also a bit too broad. Like Praetyre said, Katamari is weird, and it's fiction, so what's to stop somebody from listing it under weird fiction?
  • February 14, 2009
    alliterator
    Huh. How about the word "mythos"? It gives the connotation to the Cthulhu Mythos, so you could have Cosmic Mythos or Weird Mythos and it wouldn't confused with Eldritch Abomination.
  • February 14, 2009
    Praetyre
    Cosmic Mythos makes me think of the various Marvel backstories involving the Celestials, Dark Phoenix and all that. Weird Mythos makes me think of strange things in mythology, like a Mesopotamian god creating a river by wanking.
  • February 14, 2009
    alliterator
    [gets out book of The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories for inspiration]

    From the back of the book:

    "Frequently imitated and widely influential, Howard Phillips Lovecraft reinvented the horror genre in twentieth century, discarding ghosts and witches and envisioning instead mankind as a tiny outpost of dwindling sanity in a chaotic and malevolent universe."

    Personally, I think Cosmic Horror Story or Weird Fiction is the best. The thing that would stop people from listing Katamari in Weird Fiction would be the description. Nobody lists works under a trope until they read the trope (I think, don't quote me on that). And "weird fiction" is actually what it's called (the modern movement is called the New Weird) and there was a magazine specializing in it called Weird Tales.
  • February 15, 2009
    Goldfritha
    is a magazine specializing in it called Weird Tales.
  • February 16, 2009
    BlackHumor
    "Nobody lists works under a trope until they read the trope (I think, don't quote me on that)."

    Yes they do. People doing that has caused something like half the renames we've ever had here.

    EDIT: In fact, it's caused this rename! The whole reason we're renaming Cosmic Horror is that people are listing Eldritch Abominations under it.
  • February 16, 2009
    Some Guy
    This is a clearly defined problem with no visible dissent. Someone should act on it soon.
  • February 16, 2009
    alliterator
    I thought the rename was because people were confusing Cosmic Horror and Eldritch Abomination in other articles. That's what I did. Are people really confusing it in the article itself? Because there is a link right there to Eldritch Abomination.

    Anyway, the real problem here is that though we agree it needs a rename, nobody can agree on exactly what the rename should be. Personally, I like the name Cosmic Horror, so I would like it to stay on (like Cosmic Horror Story). Weird Fiction is what the genre is actually called, though; while HP Lovecraft is the Trope Maker.
  • February 16, 2009
    Madrugada
    ^^ The confusion was in both places. The Cosmic Horror page itself gets prunes of incorrect examples fairly regularly; the main problem is that incorrect links elsewhere in the wiki don't.

    @Some Guy, as soon as we have a consensus on the new name we will. Right now, we have several suggestions for the new name, but no consensus. The names being considered:
    • Cosmic Horror Genre
    • Cosmic Horror Story
    • Lovecraftian Fiction
    • Weird Fiction

    Lovecraftian Horror was rejected as being too easy to abuse the same way Cosmic Horror has been. Cosmic Mythos and Weird Mythos were proposed, objected to and no response to the objection was made. Weird Fiction has received two objections, one that it's too close to Widget Series and one that it's too broad. I'll address those in another post.

  • February 16, 2009
    alliterator
    Of course, we could always combine the two and call it Lovecraftian Fiction (which was also suggested above - though I think it's a bit too bland). Although, I've been toying with Lovecrafts Craft, but it sounds too weird.

    Just For Fun: A concordance of all the weird words Lovecraft used.
  • February 17, 2009
    Kilyle
    We definitely need a rename. Cosmic Horror may not be technically the name to give the big beasties we can't understand, but it's certainly the one we use. Therefore it can't be the name of the genre, certainly not if it's not an established term elsewhere (which until this discussion I thought it was).

    I personally would want to distance the creature from the genre, and hence am voting against any Cosmic part of the genre's new name. Therefore I vote Lovecraftian Horror Story as the front runner. I don't think Lovecraftian Fiction is as clear, because the few who don't know Lovecraft will probably clue in to the genre from the "Horror Story" part, whereas they wouldn't clue in from merely the word "Fiction".

    And the monster will eventually get back to its place as Cosmic Horror (redirect or no). As in a creature too big and creepy for one planet to handle :)
  • February 17, 2009
    BlackHumor
    I still think Lovecraftian Fiction is better; pretty much any name with "Story" in it sounds clumsy to me.
  • February 21, 2009
    Peteman
    Cosmic Horror Setting?
  • February 22, 2009
    MasoTey
    I've seen at least one source refer to this genre as Cosmic Paranoia, which seems a good fit; it's both unambiguous and snappy.
  • February 22, 2009
    Stuart P. Bentley
    Cosmic Memoir? Lovecraftian Tale? Weird Diary? Cosmedy?

  • February 22, 2009
    Madrugada
    How about this: Name it Weird Fiction.

    add redirects from Lovecraftian Horror Story, and Lovecraftian Fiction.
  • February 22, 2009
    BlackHumor
    Agh, both Maso Tey and Madrugada gave really good suggestions. I've got to go with Cosmic Paranoia here, though. Maybe Cosmic Paranoia with redirects from Weird Fiction, Lovecraftian Horror Story, and Lovecraftian Fiction?
  • February 22, 2009
    Madrugada
    It's not paranoia, though. They really are out there waiting, waiting, waiting...

    Sorry. But Weird Fiction is the name used outside this wiki, and I think when there's an established name we need to have a bunch of really good reasons to relegate it to a redirect in favor of something else.

    Oh, and those two objections to Weird Fiction that I promised to address:

    Aside from starting with "w" i don't see how Weird Fiction is too close to Widget Series. They don't sound alike and they don't even have the same number of syllables. Widget Series is something that's odd or out of the mainstream; Weird Fiction is the genre that is based in a universe where humans and earth are insignificant and the other inhabitants are bigger, and more alien than we can imagine.

    Second: that it's too broad. It's only too broad to people who don't know what it is and don't bother to read the description. The same objection can be made to at least 50% of the existing trope names. We can't do anything for those people short of adopting a naming scheme along the lines of The Hero Who Is Inexperienced At Sex And Doesnt Understand It instead of Chaste Hero: they are choosing to remain uninformed.

  • February 22, 2009
    BlackHumor
    Now see, trope names that sound like things they're not have caused so many problems on this wiki. (Case in point: this YKTTW)

    If we name it Weird Fiction, people are going to think it means "fiction that is weird" instead of "fiction modeled after the works of H.P. Lovecraft".
  • February 22, 2009
    negative zero
    I totally agree, because i hear (read?) Cosmic Horror and think "Cthulhu". Especially because thats what the page picture is. actually i would do this myself but i dont know how to go around renaming tropes.
  • February 22, 2009
    Praetyre
    What's more, chaste is a common term applicable to everyday life. This type of fiction is a niche interest that few people outside the subculture and those exposed to it by Popcultural Osmosis would have even heard of.
  • February 22, 2009
    Madrugada
    @negativezeero, until we get some consensus on a name, changing it is not a good idea. @Praetyre: But chaste doesn't mean inexperienced or ignorant about sex, it just means they aren't sexually active. But that's neither here nor there.

    OK, call for votes; state your first, second, and third preference among
    • Cosmic Horror Story
    • Lovecraftian Fiction
    • Weird Fiction
    • Cosmic Paranoia
    • Lovecraftian Horror Story.

    At the end of a week (that's Sunday night, March 1st) I'll tally and we'll get to start the hard work -- actually fixing it.

  • February 22, 2009
    FastEddie
    Would you like a crowner set up for this? Here you go.
  • February 22, 2009
    alliterator
    Wait, how about Cosmic Horror Fiction? Cuts out the "story" and leaves in the Cosmic Horror part.

    Or how about Tales Of Cosmic Horror?
  • February 22, 2009
    Goldfritha
  • February 22, 2009
    Madrugada
    Thank you, Fast Eddie. I'll add the others in just a minute. Remember, on a multiple-choice crowner you have one vote for each choice -- you can vote up or down on each of them.

    Goldfritha, did you vote on the crowner?
  • February 22, 2009
    superluser
    I was under the impression that Weird Fiction was broader than cosmic horror.
  • February 22, 2009
    Madrugada
    Weird Fiction is the name that was given, back in the 1930's, to the genre that we named Cosmic Horror.
  • February 22, 2009
    MasoTey
    Except Weird Fiction is associated with other genres, too. Applied to works from before the '40s or so, it can mean any speculative/fantastic fiction (but especially horror [all subgenres] and what is today called urban fantasy). Applied to modern works, it's likely to mean slipstream.

    In either case, Weird Fiction generally includes Cosmic Horror — but is not at all limited to it. Renaming the current Cosmic Horror article to Weird Fiction only invites dilution.
  • February 23, 2009
    Kilyle
    Yeah, I don't see Weird Fiction at all confined to the Lovecraftian stuff. I would, for example, file The Metamorphosis under that title, because this guy for some reason turns into a giant cockroach. That is fiction and it is weird (in the sense of not being fully explained, or the explanation being... hard to wrap your head around); hence, Weird Fiction must cover it.

    Using names that are accepted outside the wiki but only going to promote more Rape The Dog-style rename problems is... not. a. good. thing.
  • February 25, 2009
    Madrugada
    Fresh link to the crowner. You've still got 4 days.
  • February 25, 2009
    alliterator
    Heh. Weird Fiction currently has -4 votes. Which means it doesn't even show up on the poll.
  • February 26, 2009
    Epiblast
    I favor Weird Fiction because it's an official term and I believe strongly that whenever possible we should use the official name for things, and if it's so common (as it seems to be) for people to link to tropes before reading their articles we should try and take measures to change that. I do realize that Weird Fiction refers to a broader category than Cosmic Horror does, but if there's no official designation for what we're calling Cosmic Horror it may be better to rewrite the article in question to refer to this broader genre.
  • February 26, 2009
    Epiblast
    "...if there's no official designation for what we're calling Cosmic Horror..."

    Actually, scratch that. There is. It's called Cosmicism. So I favor that name. It still sounds enough like Cosmic Horror to evoke that name to those familiar with it, and it's unlikely to be used incorrectly.
  • February 26, 2009
    Madrugada
    Hmmmm. According to that link, Cosmicism is the philosophy rather than the genre. It might be close enough.
  • February 27, 2009
    BlackHumor
    I'd suggest Weird Horror if that wouldn't cause the same problems we had with Cosmic Horror.
  • February 27, 2009
    Some Guy
    Four days, eh..? I'll take comfort in the fact that presumably that means we're going to see movement on this. Cosmic Horror Story for the simplicity.
  • February 28, 2009
    Epiblast
    @Madraguda: Considering that the philosophy is the basis of the genre, that's good enough for me. I like the sound of it a lot more than any of the others, although if I can't have that I think Lovecraftian Fiction is the least awkward alternative.
  • March 1, 2009
    Madrugada
    Who made the redirect from Cosmic Horror Story?

    Dammit, now it's going to be a royal mess to clean up all the incorrect wicks. We need to RENAME not redirect first, so that Cosmic Horror goes redlinked, so we can find the frick-fracking links.

    Anyway, Crowner results:

    Those were the only two to get positive responses.

    The next three all wound up with final scores of 0
    • Cosmic Paranoia: 5 yes, 5 no
    • Tales Of Cosmic Horror:4 yes, 4 No
    • Cosmicism : 3 yes, 3 no

    And these two got negative final scores:
    • Lovecraftian Horror Story: 4 yes, 6 no -2
    • Weird Fiction: 4 yes, 7 no -3

    Cosmic Horror Story is the new name, with a redirect from Lovecraftian Fiction.

    How do we get rid of the redirect from Cosmic Horror?
  • March 1, 2009
    Madrugada
    I just got through the list of tropes using Cosmic Horror as far as "Alternate History."
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=a8c38vaafqpgkuix001vpzbb&trope=CosmicHorrorStory