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** This goes into its Masquerade mechanics that became less viable as time goes on (such as the omnipresence of smart phones, Internet, and social media making it difficult to hide). This became a focal point of later editions with ''V5'' having lore of vampire clans creating new codes on internet to use after the Second Inquisiton hunted them via tracking their online presence.

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** This goes into its Masquerade mechanics that became less viable as were only thought for situations based on its time goes on (such as of publications when the omnipresence of smart phones, Internet, and social media making it difficult to hide).weren't accounted for hiding it. This became a focal point of later editions with ''V5'' having lore of vampire clans creating new codes on internet to use after the Second Inquisiton hunted them via tracking their online presence.
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** This goes into its Masquerade mechanics that became less viable as time goes on (such as the omnipresence of smart phones, Internet, and social media making it difficult to hide). This became focal point of later editions with V5 having lore of Vampire clans creating new codes on internet use after Second Inquisiton hunted them via tracking their online presence.
* ValuesDissonance: In early editions, Romani people are treated as an [[PlanetOfHats entire culture of irascible thieves]], possibly influenced by their representation in Gothic literature and classic monster movies; most notoriously, the non-VTM book ''Gypsies'' appears to be based entirely on stereotypes. Ravnos, a clan rooted in Romani culture, is explicitly a clan of criminals, tricksters and vagabonds whose members must pass a willpower check to avoid indulging in their crime of choice. As the metaplot progressed, this was gradually shed; the Ravnos were retooled so that their actual origins laid in India, with the association with the Romani being a marriage of convenience that overtook the truth about them, and later editions changed their weakness to something more befitting the nomads they had become.

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** This goes into its Masquerade mechanics that became less viable as time goes on (such as the omnipresence of smart phones, Internet, and social media making it difficult to hide). This became a focal point of later editions with V5 ''V5'' having lore of Vampire vampire clans creating new codes on internet to use after the Second Inquisiton hunted them via tracking their online presence.
* ValuesDissonance: In early editions, Romani people are treated as an [[PlanetOfHats entire culture of irascible thieves]], possibly influenced by their representation in Gothic literature and classic monster movies; most notoriously, the non-VTM non-''VTM'' book ''Gypsies'' appears to be based entirely on stereotypes. Ravnos, a clan rooted in Romani culture, is explicitly a clan of criminals, tricksters and vagabonds whose members must pass a willpower check to avoid indulging in their crime of choice. As the metaplot progressed, this was gradually shed; the Ravnos were retooled so that their actual origins laid in India, with the association with the Romani being a marriage of convenience that overtook the truth about them, and later editions changed their weakness to something more befitting the nomads they had become.



** From the adventure ''Lair of the Hidden,'' there's the Cappadocian Drenis. [[spoiler: She was born a male in the second century AD, but after being gang-raped by enemy soldiers and being unable to consummate his arranged marriage due to the resulting psychological trauma, he ran away and joined the priestesses of Cybele, having himself castrated and becoming a woman in every other way as well due to 1) being disgusted with the male gender entirely after his experiences and 2) believing he would be "in a half-state, neither a man nor woman" until he went through with it. The descriptions of the character elsewhere in the book makes it clear that the psychological scars have persisted over the centuries, even suggesting that Drenis entered into the pact with the demon out of self-destructiveness ("There are deep wounds in Drenis' psyche, a fundamentally gentle nature long subjected to horrors beyond its capacity, and so she sometimes behaves in ways no one, including she herself, can really explain"). Add to that the fact that she's one of the few good members of The Twelve (she's Humanity 7, the human baseline and second only to the senile-but-gentle mad-vampire Demetrius), and you really feel bad for her.]]

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** From the adventure ''Lair of the Hidden,'' there's the Cappadocian Drenis. [[spoiler: She [[spoiler:She was born a male in the second century AD, but after being gang-raped by enemy soldiers and being unable to consummate his her arranged marriage due to the resulting psychological trauma, he she ran away and joined the priestesses of Cybele, having himself herself castrated and becoming a woman in every other way as well due to 1) being disgusted with the male gender entirely after his her experiences and 2) believing he she would be "in a half-state, neither a man nor woman" until he she went through with it. The descriptions of the character elsewhere in the book makes it clear that the psychological scars have persisted over the centuries, even suggesting that Drenis entered into the pact with the demon out of self-destructiveness ("There are deep wounds in Drenis' psyche, a fundamentally gentle nature long subjected to horrors beyond its capacity, and so she sometimes behaves in ways no one, including she herself, can really explain"). Add to that the fact that she's one of the few good members of The Twelve (she's Humanity 7, the human baseline and second only to the senile-but-gentle mad-vampire Demetrius), and you really feel bad for her.]]

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* UnintentionalPeriodPiece: Earlier editions are rooted in the contemporary times that they were published in.
** This goes into its Masquerade mechanics that became less viable as time goes on (such as the omnipresence of smart phones, Internet, and social media making it difficult to hide). This became focal point of later editions with V5 having lore of Vampire clans creating new codes on internet use after Second Inquisiton hunted them via tracking their online presence.
* ValuesDissonance: In early editions, Romani people are treated as an [[PlanetOfHats entire culture of irascible thieves]], possibly influenced by their representation in Gothic literature and classic monster movies; most notoriously, the non-VTM book ''Gypsies'' appears to be based entirely on stereotypes. Ravnos, a clan rooted in Romani culture, is explicitly a clan of criminals, tricksters and vagabonds whose members must pass a willpower check to avoid indulging in their crime of choice. As the metaplot progressed, this was gradually shed; the Ravnos were retooled so that their actual origins laid in India, with the association with the Romani being a marriage of convenience that overtook the truth about them, and later editions changed their weakness to something more befitting the nomads they had become.



* ValuesDissonance: In early editions, Romani people are treated as an [[PlanetOfHats entire culture of irascible thieves]], possibly influenced by their representation in Gothic literature and classic monster movies; most notoriously, the non-VTM book ''Gypsies'' appears to be based entirely on stereotypes. Ravnos, a clan rooted in Romani culture, is explicitly a clan of criminals, tricksters and vagabonds whose members must pass a willpower check to avoid indulging in their crime of choice. As the metaplot progressed, this was gradually shed; the Ravnos were retooled so that their actual origins laid in India, with the association with the Romani being a marriage of convenience that overtook the truth about them, and later editions changed their weakness to something more befitting the nomads they had become.
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* DoNotDoThisCoolThing: One aspect of the game is that the player is supposed to view being turned into a vampire as a hellish curse and wants them to focus on reflecting upon their undead nature and politicking in vampire world rather than fighting and action. However, this is undermined by the fact that the game's version of vampirism gives the player access to all kinds of over the top powers while also openly disregarding most of the traditional weaknesses vampires typically have, allowing skilled players to go all out with their character's abilities with minimal consequence. This has led to a sizable portion of the game's player base choosing to play it as a straightforward action game rather than the personal horror roleplay the creators intended it to be—to the point that some players have joked that it needs barely any tweaking to work as a game about superheroes.

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* DoNotDoThisCoolThing: One aspect of the game is that the player is supposed to view being turned into a vampire as a hellish curse and wants them to focus on spend most of their time reflecting upon their undead nature and politicking in vampire world rather than focusing on fighting and action. However, this is undermined by the fact that the game's version of vampirism gives the player access to all kinds of over the top powers while also openly disregarding most of the traditional weaknesses vampires typically have, allowing skilled players to go all out with their character's abilities with minimal consequence. This has led to a sizable portion of the game's player base choosing to play it as a straightforward action game rather than the personal horror roleplay the creators intended it to be—to the point that some players have joked that it needs barely any tweaking to work as a game about superheroes.

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Out Of Focus is not a YMMV trope.


* DoNotDoThisCoolThing: One aspect of the game is that the player is supposed to view being turned into a vampire as a hellish curse and wants them to focus on reflecting upon their undead nature and politicking in vampire world rather than fighting and action. However, this is undermined by the fact that the game's version of vampirism gives the player access to all kinds of over the top powers while also openly disregarding most of the traditional weaknesses vampires typically have, allowing skilled players to go all out with their character's abilities with minimal consequence. This has led to a sizable portion of the game's player base choosing to play it as a straightforward action game rather than the personal horror roleplay the creators intended it to be—to the point that some players have joked that it needs barely any tweaking to work as a game about superheroes.



** [[FromNobodyToNightmare Madam Guil]], born a peasant girl named Jeanne, was raped and Embraced by a monstrous Baron. Outwitting, staking and [[KillItWithFire burning him alive]], Guil then joined Kindred society. Effortlessly fitting in to the Kindred nobility, she later discovered her mortal love Luc alive and a vampire himself. Deciding to rid the world of the Damned, they became feared Diablerists until Luc received a Blood Hunt against him, prompting Guil to utilize the UsefulNotes/FrenchRevolution to eliminate many rival vampires until at last she worked her way up to Justicar of the Camarilla, a position she uses to tear down and destroy vampires who think they are untouchable. Discovering Luc alive and a Templar of the Sabbat, Guil renews her love for him, with their bond transcending sect and even undeath no matter what.

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** [[FromNobodyToNightmare Madam Guil]], born a peasant girl named Jeanne, was raped and Embraced by a monstrous Baron. Outwitting, staking and [[KillItWithFire burning him alive]], Guil then joined Kindred society. Effortlessly fitting in to the Kindred nobility, she later discovered her mortal love Luc alive and a vampire himself. Deciding to rid the world of the Damned, they became feared Diablerists until Luc received a Blood Hunt against him, prompting Guil to utilize the UsefulNotes/FrenchRevolution to eliminate many rival vampires until at last she worked her way up to Justicar of the Camarilla, a position she uses to tear down and destroy vampires who think they are were untouchable. Discovering Luc alive and a Templar of the Sabbat, Guil renews her love for him, with their bond transcending sect and even undeath no matter what.



* OutOfFocus: If you read the first or second edition rulebook, you'll get the idea that the game is a power struggle between the Brujah, anarchs, and young vampires in one camp and the Tremere, Toreador, Ventrue and elders in the other. Everything encourages player characters to be heavily invested in the conflict. As the {{Metaplot}} progressed, the [[EldritchAbomination Tzimisce]], [[DarkerAndEdgier Setites]], and the [[SpotlightStealingSquad Salubri]] gradually took over the narrative; out of the initial big four only the Tremere retained their relevance right to the end (and mostly because of their connection with the Salubri founder, Saulot).
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* TrueArtIsAngsty: In many ways, ''Vampire: the Masquerade'' (along with ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer}}'') created the DarkerAndEdgier movement of today, and is the original Gothic Horror game of the 90s. The nihilism of Generation X and the associated rise in popularity of the Goth subculture is what gave force and shape to this setting. It was so dark and bleak at its peak that ''TabletopGame/CastleFalkenstein'' and many other tabletop games were created specifically as an escape for role players who didn't want a dark, soulless, brutal game every time they touched a die.
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* ValuesDissonance: In early editions, Romani people are treated as an [[PlanetOfHats entire culture of irascible thieves]], possibly influenced by their representation in Gothic literature and classic monster movies. Ravnos, a clan rooted in Romani culture, is explicitly a clan of criminals, tricksters and vagabonds whose members must pass a willpower check to avoid indulging in their crime of choice.

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* ValuesDissonance: In early editions, Romani people are treated as an [[PlanetOfHats entire culture of irascible thieves]], possibly influenced by their representation in Gothic literature and classic monster movies.movies; most notoriously, the non-VTM book ''Gypsies'' appears to be based entirely on stereotypes. Ravnos, a clan rooted in Romani culture, is explicitly a clan of criminals, tricksters and vagabonds whose members must pass a willpower check to avoid indulging in their crime of choice. As the metaplot progressed, this was gradually shed; the Ravnos were retooled so that their actual origins laid in India, with the association with the Romani being a marriage of convenience that overtook the truth about them, and later editions changed their weakness to something more befitting the nomads they had become.
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* AuthorsSavingThrow:
** There was a Second Edition sourcebook called ''Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand'' which proved very unpopular because it suggested that the Sabbat (already a secret vampire conspiracy to control humanity) was ''itself'' controlled by a secret conspiracy within the Sabbat's "Black Hand" faction, which was ''itself'' called the Black Hand. This "True Black Hand" controlled everything from the land of the dead, residing in the [[OurGhostsAreDifferent ghost of the First City mankind founded]]. There are more details, but things only get ''more'' needlessly complicated and stupid from there. When the next edition of ''Vampire: The Masquerade'' came out, they scaled back the bloodlines introduced in that book to about a dozen members each, declared that the scope of the "True Black Hand"'s power and agenda were extremely exaggerated, and then ''dropped [[OurGhostsAreDifferent a ghost atomic bomb]] on the underworld city they were operating out of'' for good measure.
** The True Black Hand got brought back in V20, scaling back their ability to influence events, retconning certain of their more egregious aspects so they were more appropriate to the setting and/or optional, and showing that the truth of many of the potentially setting-shaking secrets they were sitting on was unclear even to them.
** The ValuesDissonance of the first edition and early second edition's treatment of the UsefulNotes/{{Romani}} was swept under the rug by {{retcon}}ning their association with the Gangrel and wiping out the Romani-inspired Clan Ravnos in the metastory.
** ''Berlin By Night'' is dealt with by all of the city's pro-Nazi establishment being overthrown by the Anarchs.
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* FanNickname: The Russian part of the fandom tends to refer to Old Clan Tzimisce as "Zimischi". The clan's original name is just as unpronounceable in Russian as it is in English, and the Old Clan faction is canonically prominent in Russia - so it needs a Russified name, and Zimischi it is. It means something like "Great Winters". Most use a ''different'' transliteration for the Sabbat Tzimisce ("Tsimiskhi" is the most common). So there is Tsimiskhi the Sabbat clan, and Zimischi the Independent clan.

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** The Sabbat is an interesting case. While it draws many who just want to play AlwaysChaoticEvil type characters, if you look into the lore a little, you will find that someone put ''way'' more effort into making them cool and interesting than necessary for what originally was (and in the current edition, once again is) an antagonist-only faction. This includes a society built around cool medieval anachronisms like chivalry, certain values which are actually closer to modern-Western sensibilities than the Camarilla's (meritocracy, camaraderie, freedom, individualism, rebellion against authority not doing its job), having historically provided sanctuary to some of the most [[SpecialSnowflakeSyndrome unusual and unique]] types of vampires in the world (often persecuted outcasts), and the countless [[PathOfInspiration Paths of Enlightenment]], which not only provide a wide variety of interesting possible worldviews and religions (as opposed to the Camarilla's single one), they also run on BlueAndOrangeMorality rather than explicit evil and so can theoretically be interpreted non-psychotically and provide an interesting roleplaying challenge. Additionally, while they are typically {{Hypocrite}}s and incredibly bad at doing what they promise to do, they are the only faction who ''have'' successfully found ways that solve or at least lessen many of vampirekind's biggest issues [[note]]their Vinculum breaks the tyrannical blood-bond and also negates the kindred's omnicidal paranoia towards their own kind, the overpowering domination of elders is reduced by facing them as a pack and not doing politics on their terms, the inevitable degeneration and spiral of doom over the centuries can be countered with the Paths, which allow a vampire to rebuild their self and "go up" rather than down, the Antediluvians they claim to fight are absolutely real and if vampires knew what was good for them they ''would'' form a taskforce to destroy them...[[/note]]. In other words, while people drawn to such aspects may not necessarily think that the ''Evil'' itself makes the Sabbat cool, many might still flock to them hoping for a more well-realized version of the countless cool ''ideas'' they have exclusive access to. This actually ended up having a tangible effect on development, as Fifth Edition gave many of the Sabbat's better points to the playable Anarchs, made their clans available for every sect, and explicitly stated that vampires may follow a religion, including a BlueAndOrangeMorality-style one, while still on the Path of Humanity (where the understanding of what constitutes Humanity itself was also altered to be up to the individual).

to:

** The Sabbat is an interesting case. While it draws many who just want to play AlwaysChaoticEvil type characters, if you look into the lore a little, you will find that someone put ''way'' more effort into making them cool and interesting than necessary for what originally was (and in the current edition, once again is) an antagonist-only faction. This includes a society built around cool medieval anachronisms like chivalry, certain values which are actually closer to modern-Western sensibilities than the Camarilla's (meritocracy, camaraderie, freedom, individualism, rebellion against authority not doing its job), having historically provided sanctuary to some of the most [[SpecialSnowflakeSyndrome unusual and unique]] types of vampires in the world (often persecuted outcasts), and the countless [[PathOfInspiration Paths of Enlightenment]], which not only provide a wide variety of interesting possible worldviews and religions (as opposed to the Camarilla's single one), they also run on BlueAndOrangeMorality rather than explicit evil and so can theoretically be interpreted non-psychotically and provide an interesting roleplaying challenge. Additionally, while they are typically {{Hypocrite}}s and incredibly bad at doing what they promise to do, they are the only faction who ''have'' successfully found ways that solve or at least lessen many of vampirekind's biggest issues [[note]]their Vinculum breaks the tyrannical blood-bond and also negates the kindred's omnicidal paranoia towards their own kind, the overpowering domination of elders is reduced by facing them as a pack and not doing politics on their terms, the inevitable degeneration and spiral of doom over the centuries can be countered with the Paths, which allow a vampire to rebuild their self and "go up" rather than down, the Antediluvians they claim to fight are absolutely real and if vampires knew what was good for them they ''would'' form a taskforce to destroy them...[[/note]]. In other words, while people drawn to such aspects may not necessarily think that the ''Evil'' itself makes the Sabbat cool, many might still flock to them hoping for a more well-realized version of the countless cool ''ideas'' they have exclusive access to.
***
This actually ended up having a tangible effect on development, as Fifth Edition gave many of the Sabbat's better points to the playable Anarchs, made their clans available for every sect, and explicitly stated that vampires may follow a religion, including a BlueAndOrangeMorality-style one, while still on the Path of Humanity (where the understanding of what constitutes Humanity itself was also altered to be up to the individual).
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None


** The Sabbat is an interesting case. While it draws many who just want to play AlwaysChaoticEvil type characters, if you look into the lore a little, you will find that someone put ''way'' more effort into making them cool and interesting than necessary for what originally was (and in the current edition, once again is) an antagonist-only faction. This includes a society built around cool medieval anachronisms like chivalry, certain values which are actually closer to modern-Western sensibilities than the Camarilla's (meritocracy, camaraderie, freedom, individualism, rebellion against authority not doing its job), having historically provided sanctuary to some of the most [[SpecialSnowflakeSyndrome unusual and unique]] types of vampires in the world (often persecuted outcasts), and the countless [[PathOfInspiration Paths of Enlightenment]], which not only provide a wide variety of interesting possible worldviews and religions (as opposed to the Camarilla's single one), they also run on BlueAndOrangeMorality rather than explicit evil and so can theoretically be interpreted non-psychotically and provide an interesting roleplaying challenge. Additionally, while they are typically {{Hypocrite}}s and incredibly bad at doing what they promise to do, they are the only faction who ''have'' successfully found ways that solve or at least lessen many of vampirekind's biggest issues [[note]]their Vinculum breaks the tyrannical blood-bond and also negates the kindred's omnicidal paranoia towards their own kind, the overpowering domination of elders is reduced by facing them as a pack and not doing politics on their terms, the inevitable degeneration and spiral of doom over the centuries can be countered with the Paths, which allow a vampire to rebuild their self and "go up" rather than down, the Antediluvians they claim to fight are absolutely real and if vampires knew what was good for them they ''would'' form a taskforce to destroy them...[[/note]]. In other words, while people drawn to such aspects may not necessarily think that the ''Evil'' itself makes the Sabbat cool, many might still flock to them hoping for a more well-realized version of the countless cool ''ideas'' they have exclusive access to.

to:

** The Sabbat is an interesting case. While it draws many who just want to play AlwaysChaoticEvil type characters, if you look into the lore a little, you will find that someone put ''way'' more effort into making them cool and interesting than necessary for what originally was (and in the current edition, once again is) an antagonist-only faction. This includes a society built around cool medieval anachronisms like chivalry, certain values which are actually closer to modern-Western sensibilities than the Camarilla's (meritocracy, camaraderie, freedom, individualism, rebellion against authority not doing its job), having historically provided sanctuary to some of the most [[SpecialSnowflakeSyndrome unusual and unique]] types of vampires in the world (often persecuted outcasts), and the countless [[PathOfInspiration Paths of Enlightenment]], which not only provide a wide variety of interesting possible worldviews and religions (as opposed to the Camarilla's single one), they also run on BlueAndOrangeMorality rather than explicit evil and so can theoretically be interpreted non-psychotically and provide an interesting roleplaying challenge. Additionally, while they are typically {{Hypocrite}}s and incredibly bad at doing what they promise to do, they are the only faction who ''have'' successfully found ways that solve or at least lessen many of vampirekind's biggest issues [[note]]their Vinculum breaks the tyrannical blood-bond and also negates the kindred's omnicidal paranoia towards their own kind, the overpowering domination of elders is reduced by facing them as a pack and not doing politics on their terms, the inevitable degeneration and spiral of doom over the centuries can be countered with the Paths, which allow a vampire to rebuild their self and "go up" rather than down, the Antediluvians they claim to fight are absolutely real and if vampires knew what was good for them they ''would'' form a taskforce to destroy them...[[/note]]. In other words, while people drawn to such aspects may not necessarily think that the ''Evil'' itself makes the Sabbat cool, many might still flock to them hoping for a more well-realized version of the countless cool ''ideas'' they have exclusive access to. This actually ended up having a tangible effect on development, as Fifth Edition gave many of the Sabbat's better points to the playable Anarchs, made their clans available for every sect, and explicitly stated that vampires may follow a religion, including a BlueAndOrangeMorality-style one, while still on the Path of Humanity (where the understanding of what constitutes Humanity itself was also altered to be up to the individual).
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** The Sabbat is an interesting case. While it draws many who just want to play AlwaysChaoticEvil type characters, if you look into the lore a little, you will find that someone put ''way'' more effort into making them cool and interesting than necessary for what originally was (and in the current edition, once again is) an antagonist-only faction. This includes a society built around cool medieval anachronisms like chivalry, certain values which are actually closer to modern-Western sensibilities than the Camarilla's (meritocracy, camaraderie, freedom, individualism, rebellion against authority not doing its job), having historically provided sanctuary to some of the most [[SpecialSnowflakeSyndrome unusual and unique]] types of vampires in the world (often persecuted outcasts), and the countless [[PathOfInspiration Paths of Enlightenment]], which not only provide a wide variety of interesting possible worldviews and religions (rather than the Camarilla's single one), they also run on BlueAndOrangeMorality rather than explicit evil and so can theoretically be interpreted non-psychotically and provide an interesting roleplaying challenge. Additionally, while they are typically {{Hypocrite}}s and incredibly bad at doing what they promise to do, they are the only faction who ''have'' successfully found ways that solve or at least lessen many of vampirekind's biggest issues [[note]]their Vinculum breaks the tyrannical blood-bond and also negates the kindred's omnicidal paranoia towards their own kind, the overpowering domination of elders is reduced by facing them as a pack and not doing politics on their terms, the inevitable degeneration of the self over the centuries can be countered with the Paths, which allow a vampire to rebuild their self and go "up" rather than down, the Antediluvians they claim to fight are absolutely real and if vampires knew what was good for them they ''would'' form an effective taskforce to destroy them...[[/note]]. In other words, while people drawn to such aspects may not necessarily think that the ''Evil'' itself makes the Sabbat cool, many might still flock to them hoping for a more well-realized version of the countless cool ''ideas'' they have exclusive access to.

to:

** The Sabbat is an interesting case. While it draws many who just want to play AlwaysChaoticEvil type characters, if you look into the lore a little, you will find that someone put ''way'' more effort into making them cool and interesting than necessary for what originally was (and in the current edition, once again is) an antagonist-only faction. This includes a society built around cool medieval anachronisms like chivalry, certain values which are actually closer to modern-Western sensibilities than the Camarilla's (meritocracy, camaraderie, freedom, individualism, rebellion against authority not doing its job), having historically provided sanctuary to some of the most [[SpecialSnowflakeSyndrome unusual and unique]] types of vampires in the world (often persecuted outcasts), and the countless [[PathOfInspiration Paths of Enlightenment]], which not only provide a wide variety of interesting possible worldviews and religions (rather than (as opposed to the Camarilla's single one), they also run on BlueAndOrangeMorality rather than explicit evil and so can theoretically be interpreted non-psychotically and provide an interesting roleplaying challenge. Additionally, while they are typically {{Hypocrite}}s and incredibly bad at doing what they promise to do, they are the only faction who ''have'' successfully found ways that solve or at least lessen many of vampirekind's biggest issues [[note]]their Vinculum breaks the tyrannical blood-bond and also negates the kindred's omnicidal paranoia towards their own kind, the overpowering domination of elders is reduced by facing them as a pack and not doing politics on their terms, the inevitable degeneration and spiral of the self doom over the centuries can be countered with the Paths, which allow a vampire to rebuild their self and go "up" "go up" rather than down, the Antediluvians they claim to fight are absolutely real and if vampires knew what was good for them they ''would'' form an effective a taskforce to destroy them...[[/note]]. In other words, while people drawn to such aspects may not necessarily think that the ''Evil'' itself makes the Sabbat cool, many might still flock to them hoping for a more well-realized version of the countless cool ''ideas'' they have exclusive access to.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** The Sabbat is an interesting case. While it draws many who just want to play AlwaysChaoticEvil type characters, if you look into the lore a little, you will find that someone put ''way'' more effort into making them cool and interesting than necessary for what originally was (and in the current edition, once again is) an antagonist-only faction. This includes a society built around cool medieval anachronisms like chivalry, certain values which are actually closer to modern-Western sensibilities than the Camarilla's (meritocracy, camaraderie, freedom, individualism, rebellion against authority not doing its job), having historically provided sanctuary to some of the most [[SpecialSnowflakeSyndrome unusual and unique]] types of vampires in the world (often persecuted outcasts), and the countless [[PathOfInspiration Paths of Enlightenment]], which not only provide a wide variety of interesting possible worldviews and religions (rather than the Camarilla's single one), they also run on BlueAndOrangeMorality rather than explicit evil and so can theoretically be interpreted non-psychotically and provide an interesting roleplaying challenge. Additionally, while they are typically {{Hypocrite}}s and incredibly bad at doing what they promise to do, they are the only faction who ''have'' successfully found ways that solve or at least lessen many of vampirekind's biggest issues [[note]]their Vinculum breaks the tyrannical blood-bond and also negates the kindred's omnicidal paranoia towards their own kind, the overpowering domination of elders is reduced by facing them as a pack and not doing politics on their terms, the inevitable degeneration of the self over the centuries can be countered with the Paths, which allow a vampire to rebuild their self and go "up" rather than down...[[/note]]. In other words, while people drawn to such aspects may not necessarily think that the ''Evil'' itself makes the Sabbat cool, many might still flock to them hoping for a more well-realized version of the countless cool ''ideas'' they have exclusive access to.

to:

** The Sabbat is an interesting case. While it draws many who just want to play AlwaysChaoticEvil type characters, if you look into the lore a little, you will find that someone put ''way'' more effort into making them cool and interesting than necessary for what originally was (and in the current edition, once again is) an antagonist-only faction. This includes a society built around cool medieval anachronisms like chivalry, certain values which are actually closer to modern-Western sensibilities than the Camarilla's (meritocracy, camaraderie, freedom, individualism, rebellion against authority not doing its job), having historically provided sanctuary to some of the most [[SpecialSnowflakeSyndrome unusual and unique]] types of vampires in the world (often persecuted outcasts), and the countless [[PathOfInspiration Paths of Enlightenment]], which not only provide a wide variety of interesting possible worldviews and religions (rather than the Camarilla's single one), they also run on BlueAndOrangeMorality rather than explicit evil and so can theoretically be interpreted non-psychotically and provide an interesting roleplaying challenge. Additionally, while they are typically {{Hypocrite}}s and incredibly bad at doing what they promise to do, they are the only faction who ''have'' successfully found ways that solve or at least lessen many of vampirekind's biggest issues [[note]]their Vinculum breaks the tyrannical blood-bond and also negates the kindred's omnicidal paranoia towards their own kind, the overpowering domination of elders is reduced by facing them as a pack and not doing politics on their terms, the inevitable degeneration of the self over the centuries can be countered with the Paths, which allow a vampire to rebuild their self and go "up" rather than down...down, the Antediluvians they claim to fight are absolutely real and if vampires knew what was good for them they ''would'' form an effective taskforce to destroy them...[[/note]]. In other words, while people drawn to such aspects may not necessarily think that the ''Evil'' itself makes the Sabbat cool, many might still flock to them hoping for a more well-realized version of the countless cool ''ideas'' they have exclusive access to.
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** The Sabbat is an interesting case. While it draws many who just want to play AlwaysChaoticEvil type characters, if you look into the lore a little, you will find that someone put ''way'' more effort into making them cool and interesting than necessary for what originally was (and in the current edition, once again is) an antagonist-only faction. This includes a society built around cool medieval anachronisms like chivalry, certain values which are actually closer to modern-Western sensibilities than the Camarilla's (meritocracy, camaraderie, freedom, individualism, rebellion against authority not doing its job), having historically provided sanctuary to some of the most [[SpecialSnowflakeSyndrome unusual and unique]] types of vampires in the world (often persecuted outcasts), and the countless [[PathOfInspiration Paths of Enlightenment]], which not only provide a wide variety of interesting possible worldviews and religions (rather than the Camarilla's single one), they also run on BlueAndOrangeMorality rather than explicit evil and so can theoretically be interpreted non-psychotically and provide an interesting roleplaying challenge. Additionally, while they are typically {{Hypocrite}}s and incredibly bad at doing what they promise to do, they are the only faction who ''have'' successfully found ways that solve or at least lessen many of vampirekind's biggest issues (the tyrannical blood-bond, the overpowering domination of elders, the inevitable degeneration of the self over the centuries, the kindred's omnicidal paranoia towards their own kind...). In other words, while people drawn to such aspects may not necessarily think that the ''Evil'' itself makes the Sabbat cool, many might still flock to them hoping for a more well-realized version of the countless cool ''ideas'' they have exclusive access to.

to:

** The Sabbat is an interesting case. While it draws many who just want to play AlwaysChaoticEvil type characters, if you look into the lore a little, you will find that someone put ''way'' more effort into making them cool and interesting than necessary for what originally was (and in the current edition, once again is) an antagonist-only faction. This includes a society built around cool medieval anachronisms like chivalry, certain values which are actually closer to modern-Western sensibilities than the Camarilla's (meritocracy, camaraderie, freedom, individualism, rebellion against authority not doing its job), having historically provided sanctuary to some of the most [[SpecialSnowflakeSyndrome unusual and unique]] types of vampires in the world (often persecuted outcasts), and the countless [[PathOfInspiration Paths of Enlightenment]], which not only provide a wide variety of interesting possible worldviews and religions (rather than the Camarilla's single one), they also run on BlueAndOrangeMorality rather than explicit evil and so can theoretically be interpreted non-psychotically and provide an interesting roleplaying challenge. Additionally, while they are typically {{Hypocrite}}s and incredibly bad at doing what they promise to do, they are the only faction who ''have'' successfully found ways that solve or at least lessen many of vampirekind's biggest issues (the [[note]]their Vinculum breaks the tyrannical blood-bond, the overpowering domination of elders, the inevitable degeneration of the self over the centuries, blood-bond and also negates the kindred's omnicidal paranoia towards their own kind...).kind, the overpowering domination of elders is reduced by facing them as a pack and not doing politics on their terms, the inevitable degeneration of the self over the centuries can be countered with the Paths, which allow a vampire to rebuild their self and go "up" rather than down...[[/note]]. In other words, while people drawn to such aspects may not necessarily think that the ''Evil'' itself makes the Sabbat cool, many might still flock to them hoping for a more well-realized version of the countless cool ''ideas'' they have exclusive access to.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
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** The Sabbat is an interesting case. While it draws many who just want to play AlwaysChaoticEvil type characters, if you look into the lore a little, you will find that someone put ''way'' more effort into making them cool and interesting than necessary for what originally was (and in the current edition, once again is) an antagonist-only faction. This includes a society built around cool medieval anachronisms like chivalry, certain values which are actually closer to modern-Western sensibilities than the Camarilla's (meritocracy, camaraderie, freedom, individualism, rebellion against authority not doing its job), having historically provided sanctuary to some of the most [[SpecialSnowflakeSyndrome unusual and unique]] types of vampires in the world (often persecuted outcasts), and the countless [[PathOfInspiration Paths of Enlightenment]], which not only provide a wide variety of interesting possible worldviews and religions (rather than the Camarilla's single one), they also run on BlueAndOrangeMorality rather than explicit evil and so can theoretically be interpreted non-psychotically and provide an interesting roleplaying challenge. Additionally, while they are typically {{Hypocrite}}s and incredibly bad at doing what they promise to do, they ''have'' successfully found ways that solve or at least lessen many of vampirekind's biggest issues (the tyrannical blood-bond, the overpowering domination of elders, the inevitable degeneration of the self over the centuries, the kindred's omnicidal paranoia towards their own kind...). In other words, while people drawn to such aspects may not necessarily think that the ''Evil'' itself makes the Sabbat cool, many might still flock to them hoping for a more well-realized version of the countless cool ''ideas'' they have exclusive access to.

to:

** The Sabbat is an interesting case. While it draws many who just want to play AlwaysChaoticEvil type characters, if you look into the lore a little, you will find that someone put ''way'' more effort into making them cool and interesting than necessary for what originally was (and in the current edition, once again is) an antagonist-only faction. This includes a society built around cool medieval anachronisms like chivalry, certain values which are actually closer to modern-Western sensibilities than the Camarilla's (meritocracy, camaraderie, freedom, individualism, rebellion against authority not doing its job), having historically provided sanctuary to some of the most [[SpecialSnowflakeSyndrome unusual and unique]] types of vampires in the world (often persecuted outcasts), and the countless [[PathOfInspiration Paths of Enlightenment]], which not only provide a wide variety of interesting possible worldviews and religions (rather than the Camarilla's single one), they also run on BlueAndOrangeMorality rather than explicit evil and so can theoretically be interpreted non-psychotically and provide an interesting roleplaying challenge. Additionally, while they are typically {{Hypocrite}}s and incredibly bad at doing what they promise to do, they are the only faction who ''have'' successfully found ways that solve or at least lessen many of vampirekind's biggest issues (the tyrannical blood-bond, the overpowering domination of elders, the inevitable degeneration of the self over the centuries, the kindred's omnicidal paranoia towards their own kind...). In other words, while people drawn to such aspects may not necessarily think that the ''Evil'' itself makes the Sabbat cool, many might still flock to them hoping for a more well-realized version of the countless cool ''ideas'' they have exclusive access to.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** The Sabbat is an interesting case. While it draws many who just want to play AlwaysChaoticEvil type characters, if you look into the lore a little, you will find that someone put ''way'' more effort into making them cool and interesting than necessary for what originally was (and in the current edition, once again is) an antagonist-only faction. This includes a society built around cool medieval anachronisms like chivalry, certain values which are actually closer to modern-Western sensibilities than the Camarilla's (meritocracy, camaraderie, freedom, individualism, rebellion against authority not doing its job), having historically provided sanctuary to some of the most [[SpecialSnowflakeSyndrome unusual and unique]] types of vampires in the world (often persecuted outcasts), and the countless [[PathOfInspiration Paths of Enlightenment]], which not only provide a wide variety of interesting possible worldviews and religions (rather than the Camarilla's single one), they also run on BlueAndOrangeMorality rather than explicit evil and so can theoretically be interpreted non-psychotically and provide an interesting roleplaying challenge. Additionally, while they are typically {{Hypocrites}} and incredibly bad at doing what they promise to do, they ''have'' successfully found ways that solve or at least lessen many of vampirekind's biggest issues (the tyrannical blood-bond, the overpowering domination of elders, the inevitable degeneration of the self over the centuries, the kindred's omnicidal paranoia towards their own kind...). In other words, while people drawn to such aspects may not necessarily think that the ''Evil'' itself makes the Sabbat cool, many might still flock to them hoping for a more well-realized version of the countless cool ''ideas'' they have exclusive access to.

to:

** The Sabbat is an interesting case. While it draws many who just want to play AlwaysChaoticEvil type characters, if you look into the lore a little, you will find that someone put ''way'' more effort into making them cool and interesting than necessary for what originally was (and in the current edition, once again is) an antagonist-only faction. This includes a society built around cool medieval anachronisms like chivalry, certain values which are actually closer to modern-Western sensibilities than the Camarilla's (meritocracy, camaraderie, freedom, individualism, rebellion against authority not doing its job), having historically provided sanctuary to some of the most [[SpecialSnowflakeSyndrome unusual and unique]] types of vampires in the world (often persecuted outcasts), and the countless [[PathOfInspiration Paths of Enlightenment]], which not only provide a wide variety of interesting possible worldviews and religions (rather than the Camarilla's single one), they also run on BlueAndOrangeMorality rather than explicit evil and so can theoretically be interpreted non-psychotically and provide an interesting roleplaying challenge. Additionally, while they are typically {{Hypocrites}} {{Hypocrite}}s and incredibly bad at doing what they promise to do, they ''have'' successfully found ways that solve or at least lessen many of vampirekind's biggest issues (the tyrannical blood-bond, the overpowering domination of elders, the inevitable degeneration of the self over the centuries, the kindred's omnicidal paranoia towards their own kind...). In other words, while people drawn to such aspects may not necessarily think that the ''Evil'' itself makes the Sabbat cool, many might still flock to them hoping for a more well-realized version of the countless cool ''ideas'' they have exclusive access to.

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* EvilIsCool: Supposed to be subverted. However, some writers play it straight, usually with some of the most atrocious Clans.

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* EvilIsCool: EvilIsCool:
**
Supposed to be subverted. However, some writers play it straight, usually with some of the most atrocious Clans.
** The Sabbat is an interesting case. While it draws many who just want to play AlwaysChaoticEvil type characters, if you look into the lore a little, you will find that someone put ''way'' more effort into making them cool and interesting than necessary for what originally was (and in the current edition, once again is) an antagonist-only faction. This includes a society built around cool medieval anachronisms like chivalry, certain values which are actually closer to modern-Western sensibilities than the Camarilla's (meritocracy, camaraderie, freedom, individualism, rebellion against authority not doing its job), having historically provided sanctuary to some of the most [[SpecialSnowflakeSyndrome unusual and unique]] types of vampires in the world (often persecuted outcasts), and the countless [[PathOfInspiration Paths of Enlightenment]], which not only provide a wide variety of interesting possible worldviews and religions (rather than the Camarilla's single one), they also run on BlueAndOrangeMorality rather than explicit evil and so can theoretically be interpreted non-psychotically and provide an interesting roleplaying challenge. Additionally, while they are typically {{Hypocrites}} and incredibly bad at doing what they promise to do, they ''have'' successfully found ways that solve or at least lessen many of vampirekind's biggest issues (the tyrannical blood-bond, the overpowering domination of elders, the inevitable degeneration of the self over the centuries, the kindred's omnicidal paranoia towards their own kind...). In other words, while people drawn to such aspects may not necessarily think that the ''Evil'' itself makes the Sabbat cool, many might still flock to them hoping for a more well-realized version of the countless cool ''ideas'' they have exclusive access to.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** [[PragmaticVillainy "Queen" Anne Bowesley]] is the Ventrue Prince of New York. A ruthless power broker when alive who helped to [[BeenThereShapedHistory organize the overthrow of King James]] in favor of King William, Anne was Embraced by the Ventrue Valerius and became a valued member of the court of Prince Mithras. As brilliant and deadly in undeath, Anne overcame all enemies, outwitting entire clans in London while making herself [[CantKillYouStillNeedYou so indispensable]] to Mithras she was even covertly allowed to diablerize several elders. Using this to raise her own powers, Anne finally claimed the vacant seat of Princedom in London during the 1940s, ruthlessly consolidating power so that none could hope to dislodge her.

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** [[PragmaticVillainy "Queen" Anne Bowesley]] is the Ventrue Prince of New York.London. A ruthless power broker when alive who helped to [[BeenThereShapedHistory organize the overthrow of King James]] in favor of King William, Anne was Embraced by the Ventrue Valerius and became a valued member of the court of Prince Mithras. As brilliant and deadly in undeath, Anne overcame all enemies, outwitting entire clans in London while making herself [[CantKillYouStillNeedYou so indispensable]] to Mithras she was even covertly allowed to diablerize several elders. Using this to raise her own powers, Anne finally claimed the vacant seat of Princedom in London during the 1940s, ruthlessly consolidating power so that none could hope to dislodge her.

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Moved to the funny moments subpage.


** There was a Second Edition sourcebook called ''Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand'' which proved very unpopular because it suggested that the Sabbat (already a secret vampire conspiracy to control humanity) was ''itself'' controlled by a secret conspiracy within the Sabbat's "Black Hand" faction, which was ''itself'' called the Black Hand. This "True Black Hand" controlled everything from the land of the dead, residing in the [[OurGhostsAreDifferent ghost of the First City mankind founded]]. There are more details, but things only get ''more'' needlessly complicated and stupid from there. When the next edition of Vampire: The Masquerade came out, they scaled back the bloodlines introduced in that book to about a dozen members each, declared that the scope of the "True Black Hand"'s power and agenda were extremely exaggerated, and then ''dropped [[OurGhostsAreDifferent a ghost atomic bomb]] on the underworld city they were operating out of'' for good measure.

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** There was a Second Edition sourcebook called ''Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand'' which proved very unpopular because it suggested that the Sabbat (already a secret vampire conspiracy to control humanity) was ''itself'' controlled by a secret conspiracy within the Sabbat's "Black Hand" faction, which was ''itself'' called the Black Hand. This "True Black Hand" controlled everything from the land of the dead, residing in the [[OurGhostsAreDifferent ghost of the First City mankind founded]]. There are more details, but things only get ''more'' needlessly complicated and stupid from there. When the next edition of Vampire: ''Vampire: The Masquerade Masquerade'' came out, they scaled back the bloodlines introduced in that book to about a dozen members each, declared that the scope of the "True Black Hand"'s power and agenda were extremely exaggerated, and then ''dropped [[OurGhostsAreDifferent a ghost atomic bomb]] on the underworld city they were operating out of'' for good measure.



* SugarWiki/FunnyMoments: The narrator's description of the [[TheScrappy Followers of Set]] in the revised edition of Clanbook: Ravnos: "This clan must have [[LeaningOnTheFourthWall stepped out of a]] [[SelfDeprecatingHumor bad fantasy pulp]]." "Okay, we're all dead and we [[ReligionOfEvil worship an evil snake god]]! [[SnakesAreSexy 'Cause he has snakes!]]" At this point, one almost expected the [[VillainousIncest Giovanni]] entry to start off with "[[WesternAnimation/SouthParkBiggerLongerAndUncut Shut your *** ing face,]] [[VulgarHumor uncle *** ...]]"
** Quite a bit of the Ravnos clanbook was [[DeadpanSnarker snarking]] at the others. Comes of being a clan of jokers to start with and then having little left to lose after [[WhamEpisode the Week of Nightmares]].
** There's a Mental Flaw, "Stereotype", that makes you act as a camp vampire ([[VampireVords accent]], cape, the works). Stereotype returned in V20, but in addition to the typical Bela Lugosi homage, this flaw can now also cause you to want to [[Literature/{{Twilight}} cover your skin in body glitter.]]
** One of the clanbooks contains an anecdote about a Leatherface [[note]] A Nosferatu subculture of {{Mad Artist}}s [[LooksLikeOrlok Nosferatu]] who perform their killings in artistic manner[[/note]] who once stopped mid-murder because the lighting wasn't right.
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* TooCoolToLive: Countless cool and interesting minor vampire bloodlines have been created over the years, but you're more likely to find them labeled as "extinct in the modern day" than not for the sake of depicting the setting as a DarkerAndEdgier place where such genocide is commonplace and all the nice things died out centuries ago.

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* FanNickname:
** The Russian part of the fandom tends to refer to Old Clan Tzimisce as "Zimischi". The clan's original name is just as unpronounceable in Russian as it is in English, and the Old Clan faction is canonically prominent in Russia - so it needs a Russified name, and Zimischi it is. It means something like "Great Winters". Most use a ''different'' transliteration for the Sabbat Tzimisce ("Tsimiskhi" is the most common). So there is Tsimiskhi the Sabbat clan, and Zimischi the Independent clan.



** [[UsefulNotes/VladTheImpaler Vlad Tepes]], later known as {{Dracula}}, is a Tzimisce "Voivoide" who became an independent ghoul by capturing and bleeding vampires. Hunting for a vampire to embrace him, Dracula lured an army of [[Characters/VampireTheMasqueradeSabbat Sabbat]] and leaked their location to the [[Characters/VampireTheMasqueradeCharactersCamarilla Camarilla]] to come in, sweep up the remnants with his own forces and take two powerful Tzimisce hostage. Forcing one to embrace him, he diablerized the elder and released his sire with a warning to never meddle in his affairs again. Keeping a tight grip over the region, Dracula plays Sabbat and Camarilla against one another to increase his own power, all while flaunting the Masquerade by manipulating Creator/BramStoker into novelizing his life story.
** [[ConsummateProfessional Archon Theo "Killa B" Bell]] was a former slave Embraced into the Brujah clan by the noble Don Cerro. Slaughtering his former master and [[TheBerserker losing himself to the Beast]], Theo kept his master's name of Bell to remind himself of the power he wielded. Named Archon for his skill, Theo becomes a figure of [[TheDreaded renown and terror]], performing operations with brutal and effective skill. Having been a member of the Underground Railroad as a mortal, Theo cultivates more relations with mortals than most and has battled against the Confederacy and Jim Crow from the shadows. As a member of the Camarilla, Theo is a key figure in the East Coast War who devastates many members of the Sabbat, luring treacherous Lasombra Marcus Vitel into a trap to destroy him. When the Camarilla begins to persecute Thin Bloods, Theo leads a [[HeelFaceTurn defection]] to the Anarchs, ambushing and destroying the elder Ventrue Hardestadt the Younger in the process.

to:

** [[UsefulNotes/VladTheImpaler Vlad Tepes]], later known as {{Dracula}}, is a Tzimisce "Voivoide" who became an independent ghoul by capturing and bleeding vampires. Hunting for a vampire to embrace him, Dracula lured an army of [[Characters/VampireTheMasqueradeSabbat Sabbat]] and leaked their location to the [[Characters/VampireTheMasqueradeCharactersCamarilla [[Characters/VampireTheMasqueradeCamarilla Camarilla]] to come in, sweep up the remnants with his own forces and take two powerful Tzimisce hostage. Forcing one to embrace him, he diablerized the elder and released his sire with a warning to never meddle in his affairs again. Keeping a tight grip over the region, Dracula plays Sabbat and Camarilla against one another to increase his own power, all while flaunting the Masquerade by manipulating Creator/BramStoker into novelizing his life story.
** [[ConsummateProfessional Archon Theo "Killa B" Bell]] was a former slave Embraced into the Brujah clan by the noble Don Cerro. Slaughtering his former master and [[TheBerserker losing himself to the Beast]], Theo kept his master's name of Bell to remind himself of the power he wielded. Named Archon for his skill, Theo becomes a figure of [[TheDreaded renown and terror]], performing operations with brutal and effective skill. Having been a member of the Underground Railroad as a mortal, Theo cultivates more relations with mortals than most and has battled against the Confederacy and Jim Crow from the shadows. As a member of the Camarilla, Theo is a key figure in the East Coast War who devastates many members of the Sabbat, luring treacherous Lasombra Marcus Vitel into a trap to destroy him. When the Camarilla begins to persecute Thin Bloods, Thin-Bloods, Theo leads a [[HeelFaceTurn defection]] {{defect|orFromDecadence}}ion to the Anarchs, ambushing and destroying the elder Ventrue Hardestadt the Younger in the process.
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* ValuesResonance: The first edition of Clanbook: Nosferatu contains a pre-made character who is openly LGBT and explicitly given a backstory as a campus gay rights activist who was nearly murdered by a group of homophobic frat boys, only for a Nosferatu to show him mercy as he was bleeding to death and give him the Embrace. The book was published in ''1993''.
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Added DiffLines:

* ValuesResonance: The first edition of Clanbook: Nosferatu contains a pre-made character who is openly LGBT and explicitly given a backstory as a campus gay rights activist who was nearly murdered by a group of homophobic frat boys, only for a Nosferatu to show him mercy as he was bleeding to death and give him the Embrace. The book was published in ''1993''.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Approved by the thread.

Added DiffLines:

** [[PragmaticVillainy "Queen" Anne Bowesley]] is the Ventrue Prince of New York. A ruthless power broker when alive who helped to [[BeenThereShapedHistory organize the overthrow of King James]] in favor of King William, Anne was Embraced by the Ventrue Valerius and became a valued member of the court of Prince Mithras. As brilliant and deadly in undeath, Anne overcame all enemies, outwitting entire clans in London while making herself [[CantKillYouStillNeedYou so indispensable]] to Mithras she was even covertly allowed to diablerize several elders. Using this to raise her own powers, Anne finally claimed the vacant seat of Princedom in London during the 1940s, ruthlessly consolidating power so that none could hope to dislodge her.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Approved by the thread.

Added DiffLines:

** [[FromNobodyToNightmare Madam Guil]], born a peasant girl named Jeanne, was raped and Embraced by a monstrous Baron. Outwitting, staking and [[KillItWithFire burning him alive]], Guil then joined Kindred society. Effortlessly fitting in to the Kindred nobility, she later discovered her mortal love Luc alive and a vampire himself. Deciding to rid the world of the Damned, they became feared Diablerists until Luc received a Blood Hunt against him, prompting Guil to utilize the UsefulNotes/FrenchRevolution to eliminate many rival vampires until at last she worked her way up to Justicar of the Camarilla, a position she uses to tear down and destroy vampires who think they are untouchable. Discovering Luc alive and a Templar of the Sabbat, Guil renews her love for him, with their bond transcending sect and even undeath no matter what.
** [[ByronicHero Lucita de Aragon]] is the signature character of the Lasombra clan. A princess embraced by her confessor, Lucita soon abandoned her clan for independence, forming a bond with the Malkavian prophet Anatole and the Gangrel scholar Beckett. Becoming a [[TheAce brilliant assassin]] who whittles her enemies down via skill and unrivaled strategic aptitude, able to even match the feared Talley of the Sabbat, Lucita is hired to assassinate Archbishop Borges of Miami and three other Sabbat warleaders, which she achieves with her usual effectiveness. Upon the death of her hated Sire, Cardinal Ambrose Luis de Moncada thanks to Lucita and her longtime lover Fatima al-Faqadi, Lucita soon loses Anatole and [[FaceHeelTurn slips]] to join the Sabbat, only for her conscience to get the best of her as she [[HeroicSacrifice sacrifices herself]] for her comrades during the Final Nights.
** [[KnightTemplar Fatima al-Faqadi]] is a devout Assamite killer, recruited as the first woman ever Embraced into the clan for her talent at killing and assassinating Crusaders in life. One of the best in all the Assamite clan, Fatima has killed elder vampires, werewolves, mages and more in service to the Clan founder Haqim, balanced with her strict adherence to her Islamic faith. Fatima allies with her occasional lover Lucita, the only being to rouse any passion from her in a millennium, to finally destroy the monstrous Cardinal Moncada before being branded a renegade for her faith by Haqim's own Childer ur-Shulgi. Even assisting against the tides of Gehenna, Fatima only [[FaceDeathWithDignity peacefully awaits Haqim's own judgement]], stating she has lived true to her ideals to the very end.
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** There was a Second Edition sourcebook called ''Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand'' which proved very unpopular because it suggested that the Sabbat (Already a secret vampire conspiracy to control humanity) was ''itself'' controlled by a secret conspiracy within the Sabbat's "Black Hand" faction, which was ''itself'' called the Black Hand. This "True Black Hand" controlled everything from the land of the dead, residing in the [[OurGhostsAreDifferent ghost of the First City mankind founded]]. There are more details, but things only get ''more'' needlessly complicated and stupid from there. When the next edition of Vampire: The Masquerade came out, they scaled back the bloodlines introduced in that book to about a dozen members each, declared that the scope of the "True Black Hand"'s power and agenda were extremely exaggerated, and then ''dropped [[OurGhostsAreDifferent a ghost atomic bomb]] on the underworld city they were operating out of'' for good measure.

to:

** There was a Second Edition sourcebook called ''Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand'' which proved very unpopular because it suggested that the Sabbat (Already (already a secret vampire conspiracy to control humanity) was ''itself'' controlled by a secret conspiracy within the Sabbat's "Black Hand" faction, which was ''itself'' called the Black Hand. This "True Black Hand" controlled everything from the land of the dead, residing in the [[OurGhostsAreDifferent ghost of the First City mankind founded]]. There are more details, but things only get ''more'' needlessly complicated and stupid from there. When the next edition of Vampire: The Masquerade came out, they scaled back the bloodlines introduced in that book to about a dozen members each, declared that the scope of the "True Black Hand"'s power and agenda were extremely exaggerated, and then ''dropped [[OurGhostsAreDifferent a ghost atomic bomb]] on the underworld city they were operating out of'' for good measure.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Approved by the thread.

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