History YMMV / TheWheelOfTime

24th May '16 6:12:48 AM Whitecroc
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Whitecloaks are portrayed as misguided bigots in their persecution of Aes Sedai, but it is plausible to think that their crusade against Aes Sedai is completely justified. Darkfriend frequency in the general population seems to be about .5% - 1% of the general population. Since there are about 1000 Aes Sedai, we'd expect the Black Ajah to number between 5 and 10. By ''Towers of Midnight'' it's looking like there are at least 200, and those are just the ones a certain detective uncovered. Conclusion: Aes Sedai are '''20 to 40 times more likely''' to be Darkfriends than the general population. And dangerous ones, too, not people merely dabbling in wickedness. If I'm a guy just minding his own business in Randland, I've got to think "Yeah, the Whitecloaks got it right; burn the Tower to the ground and do the world a favor."
** They have no way of knowing this, however, and simply assume that every one of them is a Darkfriend. That Aes Sedai have a high proportion of Black Ajah is coincidental and not made public until the last few weeks of the story (and the Whitecloaks have been around for centuries) So, they're still misguided bigots.
*** Since it's possible to forcibly [[BrainwashedAndCrazy Turn]] a channeller to TheDarkSide, and [[MindManipulation Compulsion]] is a thing, the increased proportion of Darkfriends among Aes Sedai seems less likely to be a sign of channellers being evil, and more a case of evil channellers being in a unique position to recruit.
** It's hard to tell, but the proportion of Darkfriends in the Whitecloaks also seems to be higher than the norm (at least one of their leaders has been one). After all, what better place for a baddie to hide than in an organisation that considers itself above suspicion and gives the opportunity to sow discord and despair by instigating {{witch hunt}}s?

to:

* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Whitecloaks are portrayed as misguided bigots in their persecution of Aes Sedai, but it is plausible to think that their crusade against Aes Sedai is completely justified. Darkfriend frequency in the general population seems to be about .5% - 1% of the general population. Since there are about 1000 Aes Sedai, we'd expect the Black Ajah to number between 5 and 10. By ''Towers of Midnight'' it's looking like there are at least 200, and those are just the ones a certain detective uncovered. Conclusion: Aes Sedai are '''20 to 40 times more likely''' to be Darkfriends than the general population. And dangerous ones, too, not people merely dabbling in wickedness. If I'm a guy just minding his own business in Randland, I've got to think "Yeah, the Whitecloaks got it right; burn the Tower to the ground and do the world a favor."
** They have no way of knowing this, however, and simply assume that every one of them is a Darkfriend. That Aes Sedai have a high proportion of Black Ajah is coincidental and not made public until the last few weeks of the story (and the Whitecloaks have been around for centuries) So, they're still misguided bigots.
*** Since it's possible to forcibly [[BrainwashedAndCrazy Turn]] a channeller to TheDarkSide, and [[MindManipulation Compulsion]] is a thing, the increased proportion of Darkfriends among Aes Sedai seems less likely to be a sign of channellers being evil, and more a case of evil channellers being in a unique position to recruit.
** It's hard to tell, but the proportion of Darkfriends in the Whitecloaks also seems to be higher than the norm (at least one of their leaders has been one). After all, what better place for a baddie to hide than in an organisation that considers itself above suspicion and gives the opportunity to sow discord and despair by instigating {{witch hunt}}s?
24th May '16 6:06:54 AM Whitecroc
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Whitecloaks are portrayed as misguided bigots in their persecution of Aes Sedai, but it is plausible to think that their crusade against Aes Sedai is completely justified. Darkfriend frequency in the general population seems to be about .5% - 1% of the general population (going by the Wheel of Time wiki's estimate, though I can't find a good citation for the figure). Since there are about 1000 Aes Sedai, we'd expect the Black Ajah to number between 5 and 10. By ''Towers of Midnight'' it's looking like there are at least 200, and those are just the ones a certain detective uncovered. Conclusion: Aes Sedai are '''20 to 40 times more likely''' to be Darkfriends than the general population. And dangerous ones, too, not people merely dabbling in wickedness. If I'm a guy just minding his own business in Randland, I've got to think "Yeah, the Whitecloaks got it right; burn the Tower to the ground and do the world a favor."

to:

* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Whitecloaks are portrayed as misguided bigots in their persecution of Aes Sedai, but it is plausible to think that their crusade against Aes Sedai is completely justified. Darkfriend frequency in the general population seems to be about .5% - 1% of the general population (going by the Wheel of Time wiki's estimate, though I can't find a good citation for the figure).population. Since there are about 1000 Aes Sedai, we'd expect the Black Ajah to number between 5 and 10. By ''Towers of Midnight'' it's looking like there are at least 200, and those are just the ones a certain detective uncovered. Conclusion: Aes Sedai are '''20 to 40 times more likely''' to be Darkfriends than the general population. And dangerous ones, too, not people merely dabbling in wickedness. If I'm a guy just minding his own business in Randland, I've got to think "Yeah, the Whitecloaks got it right; burn the Tower to the ground and do the world a favor."
7th May '16 12:07:11 PM TheOneWhoTropes
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* [[CanonSue Canon Stu]]: Even before entering [[GodModeSue god mode sue]] territory, Rand had shades of this. He was taller than most of the men in his village, is from a race of red-haired and fair skinned desert dwellers (which if one knows anything about ethnicity is completely impossible), gets THREE love interests ([[spoiler: one of whom is a princess]]) who all agree to "share" him, and during the final battle he [[spoiler: not only was able to defeat the BigBad without losing or sacrificing anything but actually gained from it; including a new arm, a new identity, and the ability to warp reality simply by force of will.]]
** Except: He was of Aiel blood because the Wheel required it (strong blood, raised by other old blood, etc etc etc, plus had to be born on Dragonmount), his appearance being explained as inherited from Kari (though Tam and Kari of course knew he was an Aiel and not really much is done to hide it anyways), the three love interests are actually based on RJ's own life, as he at one point had two gf's at the same time with them planning when he'd meet who, and the new body is given to him by what, according to popular theory, was the creator himself (herself?) (Nakomi) because his old was totally used up.
3rd May '16 7:11:19 AM Temporary14
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* [[CanonSue Canon Stu]]: Even before entering [[GodModeSue god mode sue]] territory, Rand had shades of this. At 17 years old in the first book he was already taller than most of the adult men in his village, is from a race of red-haired and fair skinned desert dwellers (which if one knows anything about ethnicity is completely impossible), gets THREE love interests ([[spoiler: one of whom is a princess]]) who all agree to "share" him, and during the final battle he [[spoiler: not only was able to defeat the BigBad without losing or sacrificing anything but actually gained from it; including a new arm, a new identity, and the ability to channel simply by force of will.]]
** Except: He was 20 years old, he was of Aiel blood because the Wheel required it (strong blood, raised by other old blood, etc etc etc, plus had to be born on Dragonmount), his appearance being explained as inherited from Kari (though Tam and Kari of course knew he was an Aiel and not really much is done to hide it anyways), the three love interests are actually based on RJ's own life, as he at one point had two gf's at the same time with them planning when he'd meet who, and the new body is given to him by what, according to popular theory, was the creator himself (herself?) (Nakomi) because his old was totally used up. The "channeling by force of will" is just bullshit. He can't channel. He's simply become some kind of reality warper, as former Dragon Reborn.

to:

* [[CanonSue Canon Stu]]: Even before entering [[GodModeSue god mode sue]] territory, Rand had shades of this. At 17 years old in the first book he He was already taller than most of the adult men in his village, is from a race of red-haired and fair skinned desert dwellers (which if one knows anything about ethnicity is completely impossible), gets THREE love interests ([[spoiler: one of whom is a princess]]) who all agree to "share" him, and during the final battle he [[spoiler: not only was able to defeat the BigBad without losing or sacrificing anything but actually gained from it; including a new arm, a new identity, and the ability to channel warp reality simply by force of will.]]
** Except: He was 20 years old, he was of Aiel blood because the Wheel required it (strong blood, raised by other old blood, etc etc etc, plus had to be born on Dragonmount), his appearance being explained as inherited from Kari (though Tam and Kari of course knew he was an Aiel and not really much is done to hide it anyways), the three love interests are actually based on RJ's own life, as he at one point had two gf's at the same time with them planning when he'd meet who, and the new body is given to him by what, according to popular theory, was the creator himself (herself?) (Nakomi) because his old was totally used up. The "channeling by force of will" is just bullshit. He can't channel. He's simply become some kind of reality warper, as former Dragon Reborn.up.
23rd Oct '15 9:50:33 AM phantomreader42
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

*** Since it's possible to forcibly [[BrainwashedAndCrazy Turn]] a channeller to TheDarkSide, and [[MindManipulation Compulsion]] is a thing, the increased proportion of Darkfriends among Aes Sedai seems less likely to be a sign of channellers being evil, and more a case of evil channellers being in a unique position to recruit.


Added DiffLines:

* InferredHolocaust: With the Dark One's influence causing massive food spoilage throughout the continent, if not the world, to the point that channelers are routinely needed just to heal food poisoning, it's likely that a significant portion of the population, if not the majority, die of starvation before the end of the Last Battle. And that's leaving out the countries actually invaded by Trollocs.


Added DiffLines:

* {{Jossed}} - The theory ([[http://web.archive.org/web/20031210122826/steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.5_taimandred.html with plenty of arguments]]) that Demandred is masquerading as Taim ("[[FanNickname Taimandred]]"). Even the two pieces of evidence in ''Winter's Heart'' that contradicted this were not wholly believed until Jordan finally settled the matter personally. Some still believe he [[RetCon changed it]] out of spite.
15th Aug '15 12:49:30 PM Leyrann
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

**Except: He was 20 years old, he was of Aiel blood because the Wheel required it (strong blood, raised by other old blood, etc etc etc, plus had to be born on Dragonmount), his appearance being explained as inherited from Kari (though Tam and Kari of course knew he was an Aiel and not really much is done to hide it anyways), the three love interests are actually based on RJ's own life, as he at one point had two gf's at the same time with them planning when he'd meet who, and the new body is given to him by what, according to popular theory, was the creator himself (herself?) (Nakomi) because his old was totally used up. The "channeling by force of will" is just bullshit. He can't channel. He's simply become some kind of reality warper, as former Dragon Reborn.
3rd Aug '15 5:34:33 PM GoneRampant
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* BrokenBase: Mat in the two books (so far) co-written by Brandon Sanderson is either hilarious or acting totally out of character, depending on who you ask. Big points of contention: The "character sheets" in ''The Gathering Storm'' and the [[spoiler:letter to Elayne]] in ''Towers of Midnight.''

to:

* BrokenBase: Mat in the two books (so far) co-written by Brandon Sanderson is either hilarious or acting totally out of character, depending on who you ask. Big points of contention: The "character sheets" in ''The Gathering Storm'' and the [[spoiler:letter to Elayne]] in ''Towers of Midnight.''


Added DiffLines:

** Later, when Brandon was working on his own high fantasy series, ''The Stormlight Archive'', he quipped that if Book 2, ''Words of Radiance'' was a single page longer, the publishing company would be literally unable to publish it.
12th Jun '15 5:48:51 PM Rozalina
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** Moghedien is arguably a deliberate example of this, exemplifying that for all the all the [[TheDreaded horrific myths]] surrounding them, the Forsaken are ultimately just people, and fallible as all people are. Sure, she's quite formidable when she's the one holding the cards and she [[spoiler:survives the entire series,]] but almost every time she gets her hands dirty it ends [[HumiliationConga very badly]] for her.
* ArcFatigue: Sets in around the eighth book and doesn't let up until the eleventh. In particular, Elayne vying for the Lion Throne and Perrin's conflict with the Shaido remnants are generally acknowledged as having dragged on for too long. Even before then, the Aes Sedai civil war arc begins in the fifth book and isn't resolved until the [[spoiler:''thirteenth''.]]



* AwesomeEgo: [[{{Badass}} Demandred]].
* BadassDecay: [[spoiler:Moiraine, who despite facing down four Forsaken and defeating two before her apparent demise, is largely removed from the martial side of battling the Shadow after her return and plays a more advisory role.]]



* CrazyAwesome: Padan Fain's fans tend to see him as this. He merrily skips over the MoralEventHorizon and hosts an evil force all of its own, waging a thoroughly insane war against the heroes and the Shadow alike -- partly for [[{{Revenge}} revenge]], but mostly ForTheEvulz.



* GrowingTheBeard: The first novel can be read as a fine standalone adventure, but it's often said that its first few sequels (particularly ''The Dragon Reborn'') are what really got fans of the series hooked.
* HesJustHiding: [[spoiler:Moiraine]] got this in spades. [[spoiler:The belief was vindicated.]]



* UnpopularPopularCharacter: Mat, in spades.



* VillainDecay: It's apparent by the fifth book, if not before, that not all of the Forsaken are worthy of the intense dread their reputation has inspired, especially when fate pits them against the heroes' ever-increasing skills and powers (particularly [[WorldsStrongestMan Rand]]). On the other hand, [[spoiler:Demandred, Graendal, and Moridin]] more than live up to the hype and dominate much of the Last Battle.




to:

* WhatMeasureIsANonBadass: Among a cast of badasses, most with one supernatural magic power to invoke or another, and the rest firmly in BadassNormal territory, Min, despite being thrown into death's jaws quite a lot, falls very short. She tries to remedy this by having Thom teach her the art of [[KnifeNut throwing knives]], which she picks up quickly, but she's still little-to-no help (and in one very important case, a dramatic hindrance) against almost all of the enemies she comes up against. Her fans tend to point out that this is somewhat unfair to hold against her, since despite her lack of conventional strength, she's still a very important character.
8th Jun '15 3:04:32 PM Rozalina
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

** Elaida, despite becoming something of a HateSink, is a divisive character. Was she a WellIntentionedExtremist doing what she felt had to be done to save the world, [[UnwittingPawn undermined]] by the Black Ajah and DrivenToVillainy in the process? Or was she always an [[ItsAllAboutMe egotistical madwoman]] who leapt at the chance to take over as Amyrlin, sealing her fate through her own follies?


Added DiffLines:

** Asmodean is killed off relatively early, but is fondly remembered and commonly ranks high on fans' favourite Forsaken lists.


Added DiffLines:

* JerkassWoobie: Rand in the second half of the series, as the weight of being TheChosenOne hardens his heart and his actions become much more ruthless, ambiguous, and grey, accompanied by him developing a colder disposition and a willingness to commit indefensible acts for the sake of [[IDidWhatIHadToDo doing what has to be done]]. ''Many'' characters worry for where this will take him, and even his oldest and closest friends begin arguing that he's [[MoralEventHorizon crossing lines]]. [[spoiler:This reaches a climax in ''The Gathering Storm'', when after an introspective reckoning on Dragonmount, Rand comes to terms with his destiny and resolves to make things right before his death.]]
** Lanfear arguably fits this, and [[spoiler:Ishamael, of all people, has shades of it in the final books.]]


Added DiffLines:

* LoveToHate: Most of the Forsaken, particularly Moghedien, who despite being an easily spooked DirtyCoward is one of the most enduring and [[{{Determinator}} driven]] villains in the series.


Added DiffLines:

* NeverLiveItDown: One of Nynaeve's biggest motivations for joining the White Tower was to put herself in a position to get revenge on Moiraine for plucking the Two Rivers' folk out of their village. This is, on several levels, absolutely ridiculous: in helping the protagonists escape from the Two Rivers, Moiraine not only saved all of their lives, but also diverted the Shadowspawn trying to kill them all away from their hometown. Nynaeve eventually realizes how stupid this is [[spoiler:and even becomes close friends with Moiraine in the final book]] but her detractors are still quick to point this out.


Added DiffLines:

* ReplacementScrappy: For some, Cadsuane, who becomes Rand's foremost Aes Sedai advisor after [[spoiler:Moiraine's "death."]]


Added DiffLines:

* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter: Asmodean, for some. Rand having a [[DePower de-powered]] former Forsaken as his TokenEvilTeammate and channelling coach was an interesting angle to take, but Asmodean's arc is cut short on the cusp of a true HeelFaceTurn when he's KilledOffForReal.
22nd Apr '15 12:32:12 AM PanzerGeneral
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** After five books worth of build-up, Sammael gets eaten by Mashadar after a short, not particularly spectacular fight with Rand. When questioned about this, [[WordOfGod Jordan]] said that he felt Sammael was a "louse" who didn't deserve a dramatic death, so this trope can be safely said to have been [[InvokedTrope invoked]]. It also doesn't help that you'd swear Sammael wasn't actually killed with a quite striking case of NeverFoundThebody, until Jordan had to step in and clarify that "Sammael is toast."

to:

** After five books worth of build-up, Sammael gets eaten by Mashadar after a short, not particularly spectacular fight with Rand. When questioned about this, [[WordOfGod Jordan]] said that he felt Sammael was a "louse" who didn't deserve a dramatic death, so this trope can be safely said to have been [[InvokedTrope invoked]]. It also doesn't help that you'd swear Sammael wasn't actually killed with a quite striking case of NeverFoundThebody, NeverFoundTheBody, until Jordan had to step in and clarify that "Sammael is toast."
This list shows the last 10 events of 152. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=YMMV.TheWheelOfTime