History YMMV / Smogon

6th Jan '18 7:35:38 PM HeatEdgeSword
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** While not to the same extent as Charizard due to the lack of vocal HypeBacklash, other popular but underpowered Pokémon such as Pikachu, Typhlosion, and (to a lesser extent) Decidueye and Gen IV Blaziken can end up being hated or dismissed by Smogonites, especially when inexperienced players try using them in higher tiers a la Charizard. Pikachu in particular is lamented and bashed in equal numbers due to the fact that, for all of its being the SeriesMascot and all of the exclusive moves and items it gets, it is considered one of the absolute worst and weakest Pokémon in the series, to the point that its doppelganger Mimikyu is, bizarrely, a much better and reasonably viable Pokémon. In Typhlosion's case, this caused problems in its tiering for a while, where it ended up being RU by usage but was considered one of the worst Pokémon in the tier.

to:

** While not to the same extent as Charizard due to the lack of vocal HypeBacklash, other popular but underpowered Pokémon such as Pikachu, Typhlosion, and (to a lesser extent) Decidueye and Gen IV Blaziken can end up being hated or dismissed by Smogonites, especially when inexperienced players try using them in higher tiers a la Charizard. Pikachu in particular is lamented and bashed in equal numbers due to the fact that, for all of its being the SeriesMascot and all of the exclusive moves and items it gets, it is considered one of the absolute worst and weakest Pokémon in the series, to the point that its doppelganger Mimikyu is, bizarrely, a much better and reasonably viable Pokémon. In Typhlosion's case, this caused problems in its tiering for a while, where it ended up being RU by usage [=BL3=] but was considered one of the worst Pokémon in the tier.RU.
12th Dec '17 1:05:39 PM Anddrix
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* LoveItOrHateIt: Smogons rulesets and tier system are often seen as either the most balanced and interesting take on the Pokémon meta or an annoying bunch of know-it-alls who stifle Pokémon team building creativity and results in a lot of [[ComplacentGamingSyndrome boring matches using the same set of Pokémon with the same set of moves]] over and over again, with barely any in between opinions on the group and site.
11th Dec '17 4:57:22 PM canidApath
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* TheyChangedItNowItSucks: Itís generally agreed that the new forum layout instituted in December 2017 is vastly inferior to the previous one.
4th Dec '17 12:35:01 PM Chasem
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** While not to the same extent as Charizard due to the lack of vocal HypeBacklash, other popular but underpowered Pokémon such as Pikachu, Typhlosion and (to a lesser extent) Decidueye can end up being hated or dismissed by Smogonites, especially when inexperienced players try using them in higher tiers a la Charizard. Pikachu in particular is lamented and bashed in equal numbers due to the fact that, for all of its being the SeriesMascot and all of the exclusive moves and items it gets, it is considered one of the absolute worst and weakest Pokémon in the series, to the point that its doppelganger Mimikyu is, bizarrely, a much better and reasonably viable Pokémon. In Typhlosion's case, this caused problems in its tiering for a while, where it ended up being RU by usage but was considered one of the worst Pokémon in the tier.

to:

** While not to the same extent as Charizard due to the lack of vocal HypeBacklash, other popular but underpowered Pokémon such as Pikachu, Typhlosion Typhlosion, and (to a lesser extent) Decidueye and Gen IV Blaziken can end up being hated or dismissed by Smogonites, especially when inexperienced players try using them in higher tiers a la Charizard. Pikachu in particular is lamented and bashed in equal numbers due to the fact that, for all of its being the SeriesMascot and all of the exclusive moves and items it gets, it is considered one of the absolute worst and weakest Pokémon in the series, to the point that its doppelganger Mimikyu is, bizarrely, a much better and reasonably viable Pokémon. In Typhlosion's case, this caused problems in its tiering for a while, where it ended up being RU by usage but was considered one of the worst Pokémon in the tier.
27th Nov '17 11:06:58 AM Chasem
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** While not to the same extent as Charizard due to the lack of vocal HypeBacklash, other popular but underpowered Pokémon such as Pikachu, Typhlosion and (to a lesser extent) Decidueye can end up being hated or dismissed by Smogonites, especially when inexperienced players try using them in higher tiers a la Charizard. This actually caused problems for Typhlosion's tiering for a while, where it ended up being RU by usage but was considered one of the worst Pokémon in the tier.

to:

** While not to the same extent as Charizard due to the lack of vocal HypeBacklash, other popular but underpowered Pokémon such as Pikachu, Typhlosion and (to a lesser extent) Decidueye can end up being hated or dismissed by Smogonites, especially when inexperienced players try using them in higher tiers a la Charizard. This actually caused problems Pikachu in particular is lamented and bashed in equal numbers due to the fact that, for all of its being the SeriesMascot and all of the exclusive moves and items it gets, it is considered one of the absolute worst and weakest Pokémon in the series, to the point that its doppelganger Mimikyu is, bizarrely, a much better and reasonably viable Pokémon. In Typhlosion's case, this caused problems in its tiering for a while, where it ended up being RU by usage but was considered one of the worst Pokémon in the tier.
27th Nov '17 11:03:17 AM Chasem
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* AmericansHateTingle: Given that at least [[GermansLoveDavidHasselhoff Americans, if not the whole of the English speaking world, loves Charizard]], it is quite ironic that Charizard was generally hated amongst Smogoners (also predominantly English-language based) until the 6th Generation due to [[TierInducedScrappy Charizard actually being not very useful until the buff for Generation 6]], and its fans attempting to use Charizard regardless adding to the ire.

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* AmericansHateTingle: AmericansHateTingle:
**
Given that at least [[GermansLoveDavidHasselhoff Americans, if not the whole of the English speaking world, loves Charizard]], it is quite ironic that Charizard was generally hated amongst Smogoners (also predominantly English-language based) until the 6th Generation due to [[TierInducedScrappy Charizard actually being not very useful until the buff for Generation 6]], and its fans attempting to use Charizard regardless adding to the ire.ire.
** While not to the same extent as Charizard due to the lack of vocal HypeBacklash, other popular but underpowered Pokémon such as Pikachu, Typhlosion and (to a lesser extent) Decidueye can end up being hated or dismissed by Smogonites, especially when inexperienced players try using them in higher tiers a la Charizard. This actually caused problems for Typhlosion's tiering for a while, where it ended up being RU by usage but was considered one of the worst Pokémon in the tier.
29th Sep '17 6:44:08 PM Zuxtron
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* ThatOneRule: Speed is calculated at the beginning of the turn and not directly after a change to speed. While this normally does not pose a problem, as it typically takes a turn to use a speed-altering move, a Pokémon that Mega Evolves can suddenly seem too under-speedy against the opponent, because speed on that turn is still determined using pre-Mega Evolution stats. This was changed in Generation 7.
27th Jul '17 1:41:13 PM N8han11
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** The Kami trio also get accusations of this type, due to many bans apparently being made to aid them in the metagame no matter how versatile or broken they may be.

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** The Kami trio (especially [[ComplacentGamingSyndrome Landorus]]) also get accusations of this type, due to many bans apparently being made to aid them in the metagame no matter how versatile or broken they may be.
22nd Jul '17 10:29:54 PM flamemario12
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* TierInducedScrappy: Considering what the website is about, you'd expect there'd be a lot.
** Politoed in Gen V, for causing [[MemeticMutation the Weather Wars]], turning the metagame into [[ItsTheSameNowItSucks nothing but Weather Teams]] and creating a ton of {{Game Breaker}}s just by its mere presence. This is until the weather nerf from Gen VI onwards, where its low stats made it drop down the tiers like a rock.
** [[RescuedFromTheScrappyHeap Prior to Gen VI]], Charizard in any tier above RU (read: the tiers with the best/most used Pokémon) after Generation 4 introduced Stealth Rock, at least to the more experienced players. Especially so in the Uber tier, where Charizard has no business participating in at all. [[http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue21/charizard Here's a quick explanation of why]].
** [[ZigZaggedTrope Zig-Zagged]] with the item Assault Vest. While it's a legitimately good item, newer players tend to slap it on anything that runs sets with 4 attacks (such as Durant) and/or has middling Special Defense, giving it the reputation as a noob item.
** Power-Up Punch gets similar treatment for the same reasons as Assault Vest (but isn't as useful, [[GameBreaker unless you're Mega Kangaskhan]]), and newer players tend to combine the 2 together regardless of usefulness. [[http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue35/assault-vest This article by Rarelyused Leader Molk]] explains what you should and shouldn't use it on.
** Electivire. It was hyped up in Gen IV for having massive coverage in one moveset, but HypeBacklash quickly settled in once people found it it was rather slow (its speed is Base 95 when Base 100 is the most important speed stat), too weak (all of its attacks have low Base Power and/or low accuracy), and too predictable (it was often found with Gyarados to try to abuse its ability by switching in to absorb Electric attacks Gyarados would have taken). It was horribly bashed while it was OU in Gen IV and it later dropped down to RU in Gen V (where it also sucked) and finally hit NU in Gen VI. It's still bashed for being a crappy Mon and is massive SnarkBait whenever people use it.
** Shaymin-S is another infamous example for having a very high special attack and speed stat in conjunction with the annoying combo of Air Slash and Serene Grace. It was loathed so much that it was the first Pokémon to be banned to Ubers ''[[ZeroPercentApprovalRating unanimously]]''.
** Claydol in RU. Often used by newer players, because of its seemingly good access to both Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin. However, in reality, Claydol is so flawed that most experienced players regard it as complete trash (in fact, Rarelyused Leader Molk tried to make it work, and publically judged it as the worst Pokémon he's ever used after weeks of testing). While Rapid Spin is a great move to have, Claydol's ability to use it effectively is hampered by the fact that it simply gets dominated by any Ghost-type Pokémon. Not just having its Rapid Spin blocked, but an almost complete inability to get past them otherwise and a weakness to Ghost-type moves to top it all off. On top of this, Claydol's unfortunate defensive typing gives it a weakness to almost every relevant offensive type in the tier, making its good defensive stats almost moot and meaning that even if Claydol ends up getting past a Ghost type somehow, it often gets [=KOed=] or forced out before it can pull off a Rapid Spin regardless, ''[[YouAreTooLate and by the time it finally gets an opportunity to Rapid Spin, the entry hazards it's aiming to remove have already done their job]]''. On top of all of that, the buff to Defog in Generation VI to remove hazards from both sides of the field gives it major competition, since Defog cannot be blocked like Rapid Spin. Its standard set is called "DON'T USE CLAYDOL," to give you an idea of its reception.
** Hitmonchan is considered the worst of the Hitmon brothers due to being outclassed at literally everything it can do. What really sets it in this trope is that many believe that it would perform much better in lower tiers but people won't stop using it in RU. Much like Claydol, Hitmonchan's standard set is called "DON'T USE HITMONCHAN."
** In the same vein as Claydol and Hitmonchan is Ambipom. Similar to the former two, Ambipom is despised on Smogon because its inexperienced RU players keeping using it to use its tempting STAB Fake Out off of Technichian. [[AwesomeButImpractical But it falls short in practicality]] because the strategy is [[CripplingOverspecialization VERY predictable]] and Ambipom's attack stat otherwise isn't too overwhelming, which means an opponent can see the telegraphed Fake Out coming and just switch in a tank like [[MightyGlacier Rhyperior or Doublade]] for free, as Ambipom lacks the moves to hit them hard enough. Combined with being a FragileSpeedster and having a moveset that is largely outclassed by Cincinno which can get Aqua Tail, Bullet Seed, and Skill Link Tail Slap, and Ambipom ultimately fails to make a veritable niche for itself. Much like Claydol and Hitmonchan, Ambipom has "DON'T USE AMBIPOM" as the name of its set as on Smogon. But unlike the prior two, it's still RU by usage, so it continues to be despised. It finally dropped to NU in Gen VII, AndThereWasMuchRejocing.
** Mega Gengar is widely despised on Smogon, and for good reason. Unlike the other non-legendary banned Megas (Kangaskhan, Lucario, Salamence, and Mawile), Mega Gengar wasn't banned for being a team-annihilating LightningBruiser with way too many options and far too few counters (the first three) or a MightyGlacier with a near-perfect typing and obscene offensive muscle (Mawile), but rather for being able to use Perish Song with absolutely no drawback due to its Shadow Tag ability preventing the opponent from switching out (which would otherwise negate Perish Song) and force anything going up against it into [[SadisticChoice no-win situations]]. Played properly, Mega Gengar is ''completely foolproof'', and it was kicked out of OU and into Ubers in less than a month, where it continued to be so obnoxious that it got suspected for ''banning from Ubers''. It stayed, but the fact that a complete ban was even discussed to begin with says an awful lot about how abusive the thing is.
** Mega Rayquaza was so powerful (obscene offense, par defense, speed in-between the two, an Ability that reduces weaknesses from any Flying types on the field and can't be overridden, and the ability to use an item[[note]]Mega-Evolving a Pokémon requires them to hold a species-specified item. Raquayza instead needs to know the move "Dragon Ascent", which is powerful in its own right.[[/note]]) that it succeeded in which Mega-Gengar failed and has gotten '''''banned from Ubers''''', resulting in Ubers' graduation from "Glorified OU Banlist" to a legitimate tier as well as the creation of "Anything Goes", a setting where most of the clauses are off and where every Pokémon ''and'' Mega is useable.
** Mega Salamence has also become widely hated for being so transparently broken that, like Mega Rayquaza, it seems unlikely that balance was even considered when making it. Possessing amazing offenses (145 Attack, 120 Special Attack, 120 Speed), it hits horrifically hard and fast and can easily run Special or mixed sets to make dealing with it a total crapshoot (which is what got Mega Lucario banned more than anything else), but two things really push it over the edge and into the realm of total stupidity: its Defense boost and Aerilate. The former is better than most dedicated walls at 130 and makes it very, very difficult to even scratch while it's ripping through your team or getting ready to (and this doesn't take into consideration the effects of Intimidate before it Mega Evolves), while the latter makes the likes of Return/Frustration, Thrash, Double-Edge, and Hyper Voice hit like nukes. Add this all together and you get ''the'' ultimate LightningBruiser. Thrown into Ubers in less than a month, it actually wound up being so ridiculous that it actually got [[UpToEleven banned from Doubles]]. Mind you, Doubles still allows things like Mega Kangaskhan; in essence, this is like one step away from Mega Rayquaza. ''That's'' how bad it is.
** Dragon types in Gen IV OU before Salamence was banned, due to the [=DragMag=][[note]]Five Dragon-types with a Magnezone or other Steel-type to trap and kill opposing bulky Steel-types that resist Dragon[[/note]] playstyle dominating.

to:

* TierInducedScrappy: Considering what the website is about, you'd expect there'd be a lot.
** Politoed in Gen V, for causing [[MemeticMutation the Weather Wars]], turning the metagame into [[ItsTheSameNowItSucks nothing but Weather Teams]] and creating a ton of {{Game Breaker}}s just by its mere presence. This is until the weather nerf from Gen VI onwards, where its low stats made it drop down the tiers like a rock.
** [[RescuedFromTheScrappyHeap Prior to Gen VI]], Charizard in any tier above RU (read: the tiers with the best/most used Pokémon) after Generation 4 introduced Stealth Rock, at least to the more experienced players. Especially so in the Uber tier, where Charizard has no business participating in at all. [[http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue21/charizard Here's a quick explanation of why]].
** [[ZigZaggedTrope Zig-Zagged]] with the item Assault Vest. While it's a legitimately good item, newer players tend to slap it on anything that runs sets with 4 attacks (such as Durant) and/or has middling Special Defense, giving it the reputation as a noob item.
** Power-Up Punch gets similar treatment for the same reasons as Assault Vest (but isn't as useful, [[GameBreaker unless you're Mega Kangaskhan]]), and newer players tend to combine the 2 together regardless of usefulness. [[http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue35/assault-vest This article by Rarelyused Leader Molk]] explains what you should and shouldn't use it on.
** Electivire. It was hyped up in Gen IV for having massive coverage in one moveset, but HypeBacklash quickly settled in once people found it it was rather slow (its speed is Base 95 when Base 100 is the most important speed stat), too weak (all of its attacks have low Base Power and/or low accuracy), and too predictable (it was often found with Gyarados to try to abuse its ability by switching in to absorb Electric attacks Gyarados would have taken). It was horribly bashed while it was OU in Gen IV and it later dropped down to RU in Gen V (where it also sucked) and finally hit NU in Gen VI. It's still bashed for being a crappy Mon and is massive SnarkBait whenever people use it.
** Shaymin-S is another infamous example for having a very high special attack and speed stat in conjunction with the annoying combo of Air Slash and Serene Grace. It was loathed so much that it was the first Pokémon to be banned to Ubers ''[[ZeroPercentApprovalRating unanimously]]''.
** Claydol in RU. Often used by newer players, because of its seemingly good access to both Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin. However, in reality, Claydol is so flawed that most experienced players regard it as complete trash (in fact, Rarelyused Leader Molk tried to make it work, and publically judged it as the worst Pokémon he's ever used after weeks of testing). While Rapid Spin is a great move to have, Claydol's ability to use it effectively is hampered by the fact that it simply gets dominated by any Ghost-type Pokémon. Not just having its Rapid Spin blocked, but an almost complete inability to get past them otherwise and a weakness to Ghost-type moves to top it all off. On top of this, Claydol's unfortunate defensive typing gives it a weakness to almost every relevant offensive type in the tier, making its good defensive stats almost moot and meaning that even if Claydol ends up getting past a Ghost type somehow, it often gets [=KOed=] or forced out before it can pull off a Rapid Spin regardless, ''[[YouAreTooLate and by the time it finally gets an opportunity to Rapid Spin, the entry hazards it's aiming to remove have already done their job]]''. On top of all of that, the buff to Defog in Generation VI to remove hazards from both sides of the field gives it major competition, since Defog cannot be blocked like Rapid Spin. Its standard set is called "DON'T USE CLAYDOL," to give you an idea of its reception.
** Hitmonchan is considered the worst of the Hitmon brothers due to being outclassed at literally everything it can do. What really sets it in this trope is that many believe that it would perform much better in lower tiers but people won't stop using it in RU. Much like Claydol, Hitmonchan's standard set is called "DON'T USE HITMONCHAN."
** In the same vein as Claydol and Hitmonchan is Ambipom. Similar to the former two, Ambipom is despised on Smogon because its inexperienced RU players keeping using it to use its tempting STAB Fake Out off of Technichian. [[AwesomeButImpractical But it falls short in practicality]] because the strategy is [[CripplingOverspecialization VERY predictable]] and Ambipom's attack stat otherwise isn't too overwhelming, which means an opponent can see the telegraphed Fake Out coming and just switch in a tank like [[MightyGlacier Rhyperior or Doublade]] for free, as Ambipom lacks the moves to hit them hard enough. Combined with being a FragileSpeedster and having a moveset that is largely outclassed by Cincinno which can get Aqua Tail, Bullet Seed, and Skill Link Tail Slap, and Ambipom ultimately fails to make a veritable niche for itself. Much like Claydol and Hitmonchan, Ambipom has "DON'T USE AMBIPOM" as the name of its set as on Smogon. But unlike the prior two, it's still RU by usage, so it continues to be despised. It finally dropped to NU in Gen VII, AndThereWasMuchRejocing.
** Mega Gengar is widely despised on Smogon, and for good reason. Unlike the other non-legendary banned Megas (Kangaskhan, Lucario, Salamence, and Mawile), Mega Gengar wasn't banned for being a team-annihilating LightningBruiser with way too many options and far too few counters (the first three) or a MightyGlacier with a near-perfect typing and obscene offensive muscle (Mawile), but rather for being able to use Perish Song with absolutely no drawback due to its Shadow Tag ability preventing the opponent from switching out (which would otherwise negate Perish Song) and force anything going up against it into [[SadisticChoice no-win situations]]. Played properly, Mega Gengar is ''completely foolproof'', and it was kicked out of OU and into Ubers in less than a month, where it continued to be so obnoxious that it got suspected for ''banning from Ubers''. It stayed, but the fact that a complete ban was even discussed to begin with says an awful lot about how abusive the thing is.
** Mega Rayquaza was so powerful (obscene offense, par defense, speed in-between the two, an Ability that reduces weaknesses from any Flying types on the field and can't be overridden, and the ability to use an item[[note]]Mega-Evolving a Pokémon requires them to hold a species-specified item. Raquayza instead needs to know the move "Dragon Ascent", which is powerful in
[[{{TierInducedScrappy/Pokemon}} Has its own right.[[/note]]) that it succeeded in which Mega-Gengar failed and has gotten '''''banned from Ubers''''', resulting in Ubers' graduation from "Glorified OU Banlist" to a legitimate tier as well as the creation of "Anything Goes", a setting where most of the clauses are off and where every Pokémon ''and'' Mega is useable.
** Mega Salamence has also become widely hated for being so transparently broken that, like Mega Rayquaza, it seems unlikely that balance was even considered when making it. Possessing amazing offenses (145 Attack, 120 Special Attack, 120 Speed), it hits horrifically hard and fast and can easily run Special or mixed sets to make dealing with it a total crapshoot (which is what got Mega Lucario banned more than anything else), but two things really push it over the edge and into the realm of total stupidity: its Defense boost and Aerilate. The former is better than most dedicated walls at 130 and makes it very, very difficult to even scratch while it's ripping through your team or getting ready to (and this doesn't take into consideration the effects of Intimidate before it Mega Evolves), while the latter makes the likes of Return/Frustration, Thrash, Double-Edge, and Hyper Voice hit like nukes. Add this all together and you get ''the'' ultimate LightningBruiser. Thrown into Ubers in less than a month, it actually wound up being so ridiculous that it actually got [[UpToEleven banned from Doubles]]. Mind you, Doubles still allows things like Mega Kangaskhan; in essence, this is like one step away from Mega Rayquaza. ''That's'' how bad it is.
** Dragon types in Gen IV OU before Salamence was banned, due to the [=DragMag=][[note]]Five Dragon-types with a Magnezone or other Steel-type to trap and kill opposing bulky Steel-types that resist Dragon[[/note]] playstyle dominating.
page here.]]
2nd Jul '17 12:14:57 AM EternityofSpirits
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** In the same vein as Claydol and Hitmonchan is Ambipom. Similar to the former two, Ambipom is despised on Smogon because its inexperienced RU players keeping using it to use its tempting STAB Fake Out off of Technichian. [[AwesomeButImpractical But it falls short in practicality]] because the strategy is [[CripplingOverspecialization VERY predictable]] and Ambipom's attack stat otherwise isn't too overwhelming, which means an opponent can see the telegraphed Fake Out coming and just switch in a tank like [[MightyGlacier Rhyperior or Doublade]] for free, as Ambipom lacks the moves to hit them hard enough. Combined with being a FragileSpeedster and having a moveset that is largely outclassed by Cincinno which can get Aqua Tail, Bullet Seed, and Skill Link Tail Slap, and Ambipom ultimately fails to make a veritable niche for itself. Much like Claydol and Hitmonchan, Ambipom has "DON'T USE AMBIPOM" as the name of its set as on Smogon. But unlike the prior two, it's still RU by usage, so it continues to be despised.

to:

** In the same vein as Claydol and Hitmonchan is Ambipom. Similar to the former two, Ambipom is despised on Smogon because its inexperienced RU players keeping using it to use its tempting STAB Fake Out off of Technichian. [[AwesomeButImpractical But it falls short in practicality]] because the strategy is [[CripplingOverspecialization VERY predictable]] and Ambipom's attack stat otherwise isn't too overwhelming, which means an opponent can see the telegraphed Fake Out coming and just switch in a tank like [[MightyGlacier Rhyperior or Doublade]] for free, as Ambipom lacks the moves to hit them hard enough. Combined with being a FragileSpeedster and having a moveset that is largely outclassed by Cincinno which can get Aqua Tail, Bullet Seed, and Skill Link Tail Slap, and Ambipom ultimately fails to make a veritable niche for itself. Much like Claydol and Hitmonchan, Ambipom has "DON'T USE AMBIPOM" as the name of its set as on Smogon. But unlike the prior two, it's still RU by usage, so it continues to be despised. It finally dropped to NU in Gen VII, AndThereWasMuchRejocing.
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