History YMMV / MageTheAscension

12th Jun '16 10:49:01 PM DesignatedNPC
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** See: ''Guide to the Technocracy'', a {{sourcebook}} made to both support and subtly parody them. The Technocratic Union wasn't an evil organization, it's a well-meaning one gone horribly wrong. Their actions do monstrous things, but they have also done good: they lifted mankind from the Dark Ages, and while the [=WoD=] is certainly a CrapsackWorld, they can be credited with stopping it from being even ''worse''. [[{{Retcon}} White Wolf themselves said]] that the majority of Mage books were written from a Tradition viewpoint and were thus biased against the Technocracy, while the Technocracy's own books portrayed them as heroes. The real answer, says a sidebar, is somewhere in between. The question: Is it better to be a relatively safe but controlled drone, or to be free in a world of monsters? Furthermore, the Technocracy wants imagination, creativity, and breakthroughs; they just want it to be completely within their own paradigm. While the Traditions certainly want ''everyone'' to Awaken, it's almost always with the implicit idea that "Once the Sleepers Awaken, they'll follow the paradigm of my Tradition because it's the right one." In the end, the two views (and factions) [[NotSoDifferent aren't all that different]].

to:

** See: ''Guide to the Technocracy'', a {{sourcebook}} made to both support and subtly parody them. The Technocratic Union wasn't an evil organization, it's a well-meaning one gone horribly wrong. Their actions do monstrous things, but they have also done good: they lifted mankind from the Dark Ages, and while the [=WoD=] is certainly a CrapsackWorld, they can be credited with stopping it from being even ''worse''. [[{{Retcon}} White Wolf themselves said]] that the majority of Mage books were written from a Tradition viewpoint and were thus biased against the Technocracy, while the Technocracy's own books portrayed them as heroes. The real answer, says a sidebar, is somewhere in between. The question: Is it better to be a relatively safe but controlled drone, or to be free in a world of monsters? Furthermore, the Technocracy wants imagination, creativity, and breakthroughs; they just want it to be completely within their own paradigm. While the Traditions certainly want ''everyone'' to Awaken, it's almost always with the implicit idea that "Once the Sleepers Awaken, they'll follow the paradigm of my Tradition because it's the right one." In the end, the two views (and factions) [[NotSoDifferent aren't all that different]].
12th Jun '16 10:48:02 PM DesignatedNPC
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*** Ultimately, who is the villainous side depends on your beliefs about which outcome is, ultimately, the better one. The Technocracy outcome, which results in a world devoid of dragons, spells, trolls, demons, angels and ''{{wuxia}}'', where {{Muggles}} are free to make their own decisions and are protected from the rise of {{Sorcerous Overlord}}s... and not ''knowing'' about the [[TabletopGame/VampireTheMasquerade vampires,]] [[TabletopGame/WerewolfTheApocalypse werewolves]], [[WraithTheOblivion ghosts]], and [[EldritchAbomination things-that-defy-explanation]] who don't give a ''damn'' about Paradox and so are still running around amongst a populace who don't realise they exist and so can't properly defend themselves against them. Or the Traditions outcome, which is having assorted magical creatures and things running around, and the populace being able to defend themselves against the aforementioned Paradox-immune gribblies, at the cost of potentially having {{Sorcerous Overlord}}s rising up left, right, front and center, grinding {{Muggles}} into the muck for their own selfish reasons.

to:

*** Ultimately, who is the villainous side depends on your beliefs about which outcome is, ultimately, the better one. The Technocracy outcome, which results in a world devoid of dragons, spells, trolls, demons, angels and ''{{wuxia}}'', where {{Muggles}} are free to make their own decisions and are protected from the rise of {{Sorcerous Overlord}}s... and not ''knowing'' about the [[TabletopGame/VampireTheMasquerade vampires,]] [[TabletopGame/WerewolfTheApocalypse werewolves]], [[WraithTheOblivion ghosts]], and [[EldritchAbomination things-that-defy-explanation]] who don't give a ''damn'' about Paradox and so are still running around amongst a populace who don't realise they exist and so can't properly defend themselves against them. Or the Traditions outcome, which is having assorted magical creatures and things running around, and the populace (maybe) being able to defend themselves against the aforementioned Paradox-immune gribblies, at the cost of potentially having {{Sorcerous Overlord}}s rising up left, right, front and center, grinding {{Muggles}} into the muck for their own selfish reasons.
28th Mar '16 10:37:29 AM RolandX
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* CompleteMonster: ''[[AlwaysChaoticEvil The Nephandi]].'' The ''kindest'' versions of them are [[OmnicidalManiac Omnicidal Maniacs]], and they get significantly worse from there. Picture the worst crimes imaginable, and not only do the Nephandi make them ''worse'' with magick, their whole ''raison d'etre'' is to get ''other'' suckers to commit those crimes. The endgame? Either to make the world so utterly horrible that the end of the universe is a mercy kill...or to turn reality into Hell, and [[TakeOverTheWorld reign in it]]. Oh, and they're probably ''winning.'' The Nephandi are seriously bad news.

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* CompleteMonster: ''[[AlwaysChaoticEvil The Nephandi]].'' The ''kindest'' versions of them are [[OmnicidalManiac Omnicidal Maniacs]], and they get significantly worse from there. Picture the worst crimes imaginable, and not only do the Nephandi make them ''worse'' with magick, their whole ''raison d'etre'' is to get ''other'' suckers to commit those crimes. The endgame? Either to make the world so utterly horrible that the end of the universe is a mercy kill...MercyKill...or to turn reality into Hell, and [[TakeOverTheWorld reign in it]]. Oh, and they're probably ''winning.'' The Nephandi are seriously bad news.
28th Mar '16 10:36:43 AM RolandX
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Added DiffLines:

* CompleteMonster: ''[[AlwaysChaoticEvil The Nephandi]].'' The ''kindest'' versions of them are [[OmnicidalManiac Omnicidal Maniacs]], and they get significantly worse from there. Picture the worst crimes imaginable, and not only do the Nephandi make them ''worse'' with magick, their whole ''raison d'etre'' is to get ''other'' suckers to commit those crimes. The endgame? Either to make the world so utterly horrible that the end of the universe is a mercy kill...or to turn reality into Hell, and [[TakeOverTheWorld reign in it]]. Oh, and they're probably ''winning.'' The Nephandi are seriously bad news.
28th Mar '16 10:31:05 AM RolandX
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*** Arguably, the most significant difference between the Technocracy and the Traditions is that the Traditions run on gnosis (in the non-World of Darkness sense of the word) wheras the Technocracy runs on repeatability. The new Progenitors book talks about how virulently the Progies hate homeopathic mages: Of course, homeopathy works in Ascension, but ''only if the mage is standing there forcing it to work''. The Technocratic Paradigm of repeatability enables solutions that don't require the presence of an Enlightened individual to use in a way that few Traditionalist Paradigms do. All the megalomania and powermadness is (or can be, depending on your game) secondary to the group's ability to bring "supernatural" solutions to ordinary people.

to:

*** Arguably, the most significant difference between the Technocracy and a majority of the Traditions is that the Traditions run on gnosis (in the non-World of Darkness sense of the word) wheras whereas the Technocracy runs on repeatability. The new Progenitors book talks about how virulently the Progies hate homeopathic mages: Of course, homeopathy works in Ascension, but ''only if the mage is standing there forcing it to work''. The Technocratic Paradigm of repeatability enables solutions that don't require the presence of an Enlightened individual to use in a way that few Traditionalist Paradigms do. All the megalomania and powermadness is (or can be, depending on your game) secondary to the group's ability to bring "supernatural" solutions to ordinary people.



* TotallyRadical: The Virtual Adepts and Hollow Ones, somewhat, based on some of their flavor text. Good players can avoid playing them this way easily enough, and one of the stated goals of 20th Century Edition is to remove problems like this and avoid them in the long-term.

to:

* TotallyRadical: The Virtual Adepts and Hollow Ones, somewhat, based on some of their flavor text. Good players can avoid playing them this way easily enough, and one of the stated goals of 20th Century Anniversary Edition is to remove problems like this and avoid them in the long-term.
20th Mar '16 9:01:36 AM SorPepita
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* MisaimedFandom: The Technocracy were initially portrayed as pure evil, hunting magical creatures to extinction and ruining lives, having procedure and propaganda lifted straight from ''[[Literature/NineteenEightyFour 1984]]'' and Stalin, wanting to destroy the very concept of "creativity." But enough fans still liked them and tried different things with them that the game designers [[SureWhyNot began to incorporate their ideas]] and [[GreyingMorality made them much more symapathetic]]. By the end, a still a significant number of people (including as the actual authors of the gameline) celebrated them as the unsung heroes of the World of Darkness.

to:

* MisaimedFandom: The Technocracy were initially portrayed as pure evil, hunting magical creatures to extinction and ruining lives, having procedure and propaganda lifted straight from ''[[Literature/NineteenEightyFour 1984]]'' and Stalin, wanting to destroy the very concept of "creativity." But enough fans still liked them and tried different things with them that the game designers [[SureWhyNot began to incorporate their ideas]] and [[GreyingMorality made them much more symapathetic]]. By the end, a still a significant number of people (including as the actual authors of the gameline) celebrated them as the unsung heroes of the World of Darkness.
18th May '15 10:15:25 AM 32_Footsteps
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Added DiffLines:

** InUniverse, this applies to how the Solificati reacted to Heylel Teonim's betrayal. Was it, as Heylel claimed, a way to show how powerful the Traditions could be if they set aside their differences? Was it a case of Heylel being OutGambitted by the growing power of the Order of Reason? Or was it a clear malicious act that Heylel tried to cover up with a weak excuse? The arguments over this ended up splitting the Solificati completely, leaving the Seat of Matter empty for centuries until the Sons of Ether defected from the Technocracy.
8th Apr '15 2:14:19 PM SpectralTime
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* BrokenBase: Mage the Ascension has been described as everything is YMMV, due to the nature of the setting, but two topics stand out for just how easily they generate arguments, and how often discussions derail into them: 1) How does the [[ClapYourHandsifYouBelieve Consensus]] actually work? And 2) What is the morality of the [[TheEvilsofFreeWill Techno]][[WellIntentionedExtremist cratic]] [[UnscrupulousHero Un]][[ScienceHero ion]]? The best answer for both is what ever your group decides.

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* BrokenBase: BrokenBase:
**
Mage the Ascension has been described as everything is YMMV, due to the nature of the setting, but two topics stand out for just how easily they generate arguments, and how often discussions derail into them: 1) How does the [[ClapYourHandsifYouBelieve Consensus]] actually work? And 2) What is the morality of the [[TheEvilsofFreeWill Techno]][[WellIntentionedExtremist cratic]] [[UnscrupulousHero Un]][[ScienceHero ion]]? The best answer for both is what ever your group decides.


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** The use of "magick" instead of "magic" in the 20th Anniversary Edition. Callback to the older editions of the game that underlines the exotic, otherworldly nature of what mages do, or needlessly-pretentious bit of snobbery that's only going to take up space in the book.
19th Feb '15 11:12:33 AM SpectralTime
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* TotallyRadical: The Virtual Adepts and Hollow Ones, somewhat, based on some of their flavor text. Good players can avoid playing them this way easily enough, and one of the stated goals of 20th Century Edition is to [[FutureProofing avoid problems like this in the future]].

to:

* TotallyRadical: The Virtual Adepts and Hollow Ones, somewhat, based on some of their flavor text. Good players can avoid playing them this way easily enough, and one of the stated goals of 20th Century Edition is to [[FutureProofing avoid remove problems like this and avoid them in the future]].long-term.
19th Feb '15 11:10:57 AM SpectralTime
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*** Ultimately, who is the villainous side depends on your beliefs about which outcome is, ultimately, the better one. The Technocracy outcome, which results in a world devoid of dragons, spells, trolls, demons, angels and ''{{wuxia}}'', where {{Muggles}} are free to make their own decisions and are protected from the rise of {{Sorcerous Overlord}}s... and not ''knowing'' about the [[TabletopGame/VampireTheMasquerade vampires,]] [[TabletopGame/WerewolfTheApocalypse werewolves]], [[WraithTheOblivion ghosts]], and [[EldritchAbomination things-that-defy-explanation]] who don't give a ''damn'' about Paradox and so are still running around amongst a populace who don't realise they exist and so can't properly defend themselves against them. Or the Traditions outcome, which is having assorted magical creatures and things running around, and the populace being able to defend themselves against the aforementioned Paradox-immune gribblies, at the cost of potentially having {{Sorcerous Overlord}}s rising up left, right, front and center.

to:

*** Ultimately, who is the villainous side depends on your beliefs about which outcome is, ultimately, the better one. The Technocracy outcome, which results in a world devoid of dragons, spells, trolls, demons, angels and ''{{wuxia}}'', where {{Muggles}} are free to make their own decisions and are protected from the rise of {{Sorcerous Overlord}}s... and not ''knowing'' about the [[TabletopGame/VampireTheMasquerade vampires,]] [[TabletopGame/WerewolfTheApocalypse werewolves]], [[WraithTheOblivion ghosts]], and [[EldritchAbomination things-that-defy-explanation]] who don't give a ''damn'' about Paradox and so are still running around amongst a populace who don't realise they exist and so can't properly defend themselves against them. Or the Traditions outcome, which is having assorted magical creatures and things running around, and the populace being able to defend themselves against the aforementioned Paradox-immune gribblies, at the cost of potentially having {{Sorcerous Overlord}}s rising up left, right, front and center.center, grinding {{Muggles}} into the muck for their own selfish reasons.



* MisaimedFandom: The Technocracy have been portrayed as pure evil, hunting magical creatures to extinction and ruining lives, having procedure and propaganda lifted straight from ''[[Literature/NineteenEightyFour 1984]]'' and Stalin, wanting to destroy the very concept of "creativity" and there are still a significant number of people (such as the actual authors of the gameline) who celebrate them as the unsung heroes of the World of Darkness.
** See: ''Guide to the Technocracy'', a {{sourcebook}} made to both support and subtly parody them. The Technocratic Union wasn't an evil organization, it's a well-meaning one gone horribly wrong. Their actions do monstrous things, but they have also done good: They lifted mankind from the Dark Ages, and while the [=WoD=] is certainly a CrapsackWorld, they can be credited with stopping it from being even ''worse''. [[{{Retcon}} White Wolf themselves said]] that the majority of Mage books were written from a Tradition viewpoint and were thus biased against the Technocracy, while the Technocracy's own books portrayed them as heroes. The real answer, says a sidebar, is somewhere in between. The question: Is it better to be a relatively safe but controlled drone, or to be free in a world of monsters? Furthermore, the Technocracy wants imagination, creativity, and breakthroughs; they just want it to be completely within their own paradigm. While the Traditions certainly want ''everyone'' to Awaken, it's almost always with the implicit idea that "Once the Sleepers Awaken, they'll follow the paradigm of my Tradition because it's the right one." In the end, the two views (and factions) [[NotSoDifferent aren't all that different]].

to:

* MisaimedFandom: The Technocracy have been were initially portrayed as pure evil, hunting magical creatures to extinction and ruining lives, having procedure and propaganda lifted straight from ''[[Literature/NineteenEightyFour 1984]]'' and Stalin, wanting to destroy the very concept of "creativity" "creativity." But enough fans still liked them and there are tried different things with them that the game designers [[SureWhyNot began to incorporate their ideas]] and [[GreyingMorality made them much more symapathetic]]. By the end, a still a significant number of people (such (including as the actual authors of the gameline) who celebrate celebrated them as the unsung heroes of the World of Darkness.
** See: ''Guide to the Technocracy'', a {{sourcebook}} made to both support and subtly parody them. The Technocratic Union wasn't an evil organization, it's a well-meaning one gone horribly wrong. Their actions do monstrous things, but they have also done good: They they lifted mankind from the Dark Ages, and while the [=WoD=] is certainly a CrapsackWorld, they can be credited with stopping it from being even ''worse''. [[{{Retcon}} White Wolf themselves said]] that the majority of Mage books were written from a Tradition viewpoint and were thus biased against the Technocracy, while the Technocracy's own books portrayed them as heroes. The real answer, says a sidebar, is somewhere in between. The question: Is it better to be a relatively safe but controlled drone, or to be free in a world of monsters? Furthermore, the Technocracy wants imagination, creativity, and breakthroughs; they just want it to be completely within their own paradigm. While the Traditions certainly want ''everyone'' to Awaken, it's almost always with the implicit idea that "Once the Sleepers Awaken, they'll follow the paradigm of my Tradition because it's the right one." In the end, the two views (and factions) [[NotSoDifferent aren't all that different]].



* TotallyRadical: The Virtual Adepts and Hollow Ones, somewhat, based on some of their flavor text. Good players can avoid playing them this way easily enough.

to:

* TotallyRadical: The Virtual Adepts and Hollow Ones, somewhat, based on some of their flavor text. Good players can avoid playing them this way easily enough.enough, and one of the stated goals of 20th Century Edition is to [[FutureProofing avoid problems like this in the future]].
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