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*** On the side of the Dornish army, the fact they allowed Jaime to get so close to the Prince completely unimpeded is incredibly sloppy. They were admittedly wearing Dornish uniforms, but apparently no one noticed the missing soldiers, and no one cared that these two soldiers - who are clearly not from Dorne - were approaching the Prince.
*** Doran spends an earlier scene talking about how the Sand Snakes are going to try something against Myrcella, but apparently doesn't see fit to have anyone actually keeping people from getting to her or escorting her.
*** Jaime's stealth mission to "rescue" Myrcella amounts to marching into the water gardens ''in broad daylight,'' in front of the Young Prince of Dorne, and straight up telling Myrcella to leave. As Bronn {{Lampshades}} , he doesn't even have any idea how they will ''get out'' of Dorne. Then Bronn himself ruins everything by physically threatening Prince Doran's son and then pushing him. Didn't you guys want to ''avoid'' starting a war, again?
*** Also the Sand Snake's plot to kidnap Myrcella was similarly poorly executed, aiming to snatch her in plain daylight in front of Trystane, just like Jaime planned. What makes it worse is that they see Jaime and Bronn and ''' ''proceed as planned anyway.'' ''' Rather than, you know, calling the guards to stop interlopers from attacking their Prince and kidnapping Myrcella and use this hostile act as propaganda for their war (especially since Jaime would provide them with a ''second'' valuable hostage). And they do all this underneath the gaze of Prince Doran himself. Even worse is the fact that Jaime and Bronn at least bothered with putting on disguises for their plan, while the Sand Snakes made no such attempt to conceal their identity and carried out their high profile kidnapping themselves.
** Loras' trial requires a great deal of stupidity from many people. There's Loras being so open about his homosexuality in the first place, Loras again for continuing to see Olyvar after he had betrayed him once already, Loras once more for failing to defend himself in any meaningful fashion (like say, pointing out that Olyvar was a squire so he would know where his birth mark on the thigh was, from removing his armor and watching Loras practise), Cersei for not realizing how ridiculously short-sighted this all was, Tommen for doing nothing to stop it, and Olyvar for his betrayal and aiding the guys whom he ''knows'' hate homosexuals with a passion. If any one of these characters didn't act like an idiot, the plot would grind to a screeching halt.
** Littlefinger's grand plan involving Sansa has many viewers confused. For a character who supposedly [[KnowledgeBroker knows everything]], he seemed completely ignorant of Ramsay's sadistic streak when handing Sansa over to the Boltons. He once committed regicide to get her away from one sadist...and now pushes her into the arms of another, far more intelligent and dangerous one. Moreover, why not leave Sansa at the Vale, wait for Stannis to crush the Boltons and then send him a message informing him of the whereabouts of the last remaining Stark? Stannis remembers how Ned supported his claim to the throne - chances are he'd give Winterfell back to Sansa and make her "Wardeness of the North" anyway. Instead, Littlefinger sends Sansa to what he knows (as he tells her in the crypts) will soon become a war zone[[note]]Littlefinger in the books actually did spent his whole time in the Eyrie, lounging around while joking with Sansa about how Cersei is sinking the kingdom quicker than he anticipated[[/note]].

to:

*** On the side of the Dornish army, the fact they allowed Jaime to get so close to the Prince completely unimpeded is incredibly ''incredibly'' sloppy. They were admittedly wearing Dornish uniforms, but apparently no one noticed the missing soldiers, and no one or cared that these two soldiers - men who are clearly not from Dorne - were approaching the Prince.
*** Doran spends an earlier scene talking about how the Sand Snakes are going to try something against Myrcella, but apparently doesn't see fit to have anyone actually escorting her to keeping people from getting to her or escorting her.
*** Jaime's stealth mission to "rescue" Myrcella amounts to marching into the water gardens ''in broad daylight,'' in front of the Young Prince of Dorne, and straight up telling Myrcella to leave. As Bronn {{Lampshades}} , he doesn't even have any idea how they will ''get out'' of Dorne.Dorne afterwards. Then Bronn himself ruins everything by physically threatening Prince Doran's son and then pushing him. Didn't you guys want to ''avoid'' starting a war, again?
*** Also the The Sand Snake's plot to kidnap Myrcella was similarly poorly executed, aiming to snatch her in plain daylight in front of Trystane, just like Jaime planned. What makes it worse is that they see Jaime and Bronn and ''' ''proceed as planned anyway.'' ''' Rather than, you know, calling the guards to stop interlopers from attacking their Prince and kidnapping Myrcella Myrcella, and use using this hostile act as propaganda for their war (especially since Jaime would provide them with a ''second'' valuable hostage). And they do all this underneath the gaze of Prince Doran himself. Even worse is the fact that Jaime and Bronn at least bothered ''bothered'' with putting on disguises for their plan, while the Sand Snakes made no such attempt to conceal their identity identities and carried out their high profile kidnapping themselves.
** Loras' trial requires a great deal of stupidity from many people. There's Loras being so open about his homosexuality in the first place, Loras again for continuing ''continuing'' to see Olyvar after he had betrayed him once already, Loras once more for failing to defend himself in any meaningful fashion (like (like, say, pointing out that Olyvar was a squire so he would know where his birth mark on the thigh was, from removing his armor and watching Loras practise), practice), Cersei for not realizing how ridiculously short-sighted this all was, Tommen for doing nothing to stop it, and Olyvar for his betrayal and aiding the guys whom he ''knows'' hate homosexuals with a passion. If any one of these characters didn't act like an idiot, the plot would grind to a screeching halt.
** Littlefinger's grand plan involving Sansa has many viewers confused. For a character who supposedly [[KnowledgeBroker knows everything]], he seemed completely ignorant of Ramsay's sadistic streak when handing Sansa over to the Boltons. He once committed regicide to get her away from one sadist...and now pushes her into the arms of another, far more intelligent and dangerous one. Moreover, why not leave Sansa at the Vale, wait for Stannis to crush the Boltons and then ''then'' send him a message informing him of the whereabouts of the last remaining Stark? Stannis remembers how Ned supported his claim to the throne - chances are he'd give Winterfell back to Sansa and make her "Wardeness of the North" anyway. Instead, Littlefinger sends Sansa to what he knows (as he tells her in the crypts) will soon become a war zone[[note]]Littlefinger in the books actually did spent his whole time in the Eyrie, lounging around while joking with Sansa about how Cersei is sinking the kingdom quicker than he anticipated[[/note]].
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
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** Littlefinger's grand plan involving Sansa has many viewers confused. For a character who supposedly [[KnowledgeBroker knows everything]], he seemed completely ignorant of Ramsay's sadistic streak when handing Sansa over to the Boltons. He once committed regicide to get her away from one sadist...and now pushes her into the arms of another, far more intelligent and dangerous one. Moreover, why not leave Sansa at the Vale, wait for Stannis to crush the Boltons and then send him a message informing him of the whereabouts of the last remaining Stark? Stannis remembers how Ned supported his claim to the throne - chances are he'd give Winterfell back to Sansa and make her "Wardeness of the North" anyway. Instead, Littlefinger sends Sansa to what will soon become a war zone...

to:

** Littlefinger's grand plan involving Sansa has many viewers confused. For a character who supposedly [[KnowledgeBroker knows everything]], he seemed completely ignorant of Ramsay's sadistic streak when handing Sansa over to the Boltons. He once committed regicide to get her away from one sadist...and now pushes her into the arms of another, far more intelligent and dangerous one. Moreover, why not leave Sansa at the Vale, wait for Stannis to crush the Boltons and then send him a message informing him of the whereabouts of the last remaining Stark? Stannis remembers how Ned supported his claim to the throne - chances are he'd give Winterfell back to Sansa and make her "Wardeness of the North" anyway. Instead, Littlefinger sends Sansa to what he knows (as he tells her in the crypts) will soon become a war zone...zone[[note]]Littlefinger in the books actually did spent his whole time in the Eyrie, lounging around while joking with Sansa about how Cersei is sinking the kingdom quicker than he anticipated[[/note]].
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None

Added DiffLines:

** Littlefinger's grand plan involving Sansa has many viewers confused. For a character who supposedly [[KnowledgeBroker knows everything]], he seemed completely ignorant of Ramsay's sadistic streak when handing Sansa over to the Boltons. He once committed regicide to get her away from one sadist...and now pushes her into the arms of another, far more intelligent and dangerous one. Moreover, why not leave Sansa at the Vale, wait for Stannis to crush the Boltons and then send him a message informing him of the whereabouts of the last remaining Stark? Stannis remembers how Ned supported his claim to the throne - chances are he'd give Winterfell back to Sansa and make her "Wardeness of the North" anyway. Instead, Littlefinger sends Sansa to what will soon become a war zone...
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Loras' trial requires a great deal of stupidity from many people. There's Loras being so open about his homosexuality in the first place, Loras again for continuing to see Olyvar after he had betrayed him once already, Loras once more for failing to defend himself in any meaningful fashion, Cersei for not realizing how ridiculously short-sighted this all was, Tommen for doing nothing to stop it, and Olyvar for his betrayal and aiding the guys whom he ''knows'' hate homosexuals with a passion. If any one of these characters didn't act like an idiot, the plot would grind to a screeching halt.

to:

** Loras' trial requires a great deal of stupidity from many people. There's Loras being so open about his homosexuality in the first place, Loras again for continuing to see Olyvar after he had betrayed him once already, Loras once more for failing to defend himself in any meaningful fashion, fashion (like say, pointing out that Olyvar was a squire so he would know where his birth mark on the thigh was, from removing his armor and watching Loras practise), Cersei for not realizing how ridiculously short-sighted this all was, Tommen for doing nothing to stop it, and Olyvar for his betrayal and aiding the guys whom he ''knows'' hate homosexuals with a passion. If any one of these characters didn't act like an idiot, the plot would grind to a screeching halt.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* BrokenBase: The changes to Sansa's story from [[AdaptationDistillation merging it with Jeyne Poole's]] have disappointed many fans of the books and the show. On some level, the scene itself has RapeDiscretionShot by the series standards, and is ''far'' tamer than [[RapeByProxy the corresponding scene in the books]]. On the other hand some feel that it ruins the CharacterDevelopment promised at the end of Season 4 and once again victimizes her for shock value. Especially when the scene in question follows Sansa mocking and insulting Myranda and Theon (for understandable reasons), fans feel that its almost shown as a BreakTheHaughty moment for underestimating Ramsay and dislike the entire sequence as tasteless RapeAsDrama, especially since Sansa ''already'' underwent the same arc with Joffrey in Seasons 1-3 and had moved on to a different storyline in the corresponding books.

to:

* BrokenBase: The changes to Sansa's story from by [[AdaptationDistillation merging it with Jeyne Poole's]] have disappointed many fans of the books and the show. On some level, the scene itself has RapeDiscretionShot by the series standards, and is ''far'' tamer than [[RapeByProxy the corresponding scene in the books]]. On the other hand some feel that it ruins the CharacterDevelopment promised at the end of Season 4 and once again victimizes her for shock value. Especially when the scene in question follows Sansa mocking and insulting Myranda and Theon (for understandable reasons), fans feel that its almost shown as a BreakTheHaughty moment for underestimating Ramsay and dislike the entire sequence as tasteless RapeAsDrama, especially since Sansa ''already'' underwent the same arc with Joffrey in Seasons 1-3 and had moved on to a different storyline in the corresponding books.



*** Also the Sand Snake's plot to kidnap Myrcella was similarly poorly executed, aiming to snatch her in plain daylight in front of Trystane, just like Jaime planned. What makes it worse is that they see Jaime and Bronn and ''' ''proceed as planned anyway,'' ''' rather than, you know, calling the guards to stop interlopers from attacking their Prince and kidnapping Myrcella and use this hostile act as propaganda for their war (especially since Jaime would provide them with a ''second'' valuable hostage). And they do all this underneath the gaze of Prince Doran himself. Even worse is the fact that Jaime and Bronn at least bothered with putting on disguises for their plan, while the Sand Snakes made no such attempt to conceal their identity and carrying out their high profile kidnapping themselves.
** Loras' trial requires a great deal of stupidity from many people. There's Loras being so open about his homosexuality, Loras again continuing to see Olyver after he had betrayed him once already, Loras once more for failing to defend himself in any meaningful fashion, Cersei for not realizing how ridiculously short-sighted this was, Tommen for doing nothing to stop it, Olyver for his betrayal and aiding the guys whom he ''knows'' hate homosexuals with a passion. If any one of these characters didn't act like an idiot, the plot would grind to a screeching halt.
* InternetBackdraft: The final scene caused a huge backlash from feminist groups and those who simply think it undermines Sansa's CharacterDevelopment and gratuitous RapeAsDrama, in particular the fact that Sansa's development and tragedy are being sacrificed for Reek's own character development.
* TheScrappy: The Sand Snakes cement themselves as this. The Snakes themselves are widely disliked due to their LargeHam tendencies and poor writing, as well as the FightSceneFailure resulting in them coming across as {{Faux Action Girl}}s. What's makes it worse is the plot they're associated with: the complicated Queenmaker plot of the books admittedly needed some AdaptationDistillation, but the choice of [[{{Flanderization}} Flanderizing]] the Sand Snakes and derailing Ellaria Sand and the IdiotPlot of Jaime and Bronn has not pleased viewers. The ridiculous coincidence of both parties engaging their stupid plans ''at the same time'' is bizarre, and the choreography of their fight was poor by the show's standards. In addition, the continued overacting of the Sand Snakes continues to draw criticism.

to:

*** Also the Sand Snake's plot to kidnap Myrcella was similarly poorly executed, aiming to snatch her in plain daylight in front of Trystane, just like Jaime planned. What makes it worse is that they see Jaime and Bronn and ''' ''proceed as planned anyway,'' anyway.'' ''' rather Rather than, you know, calling the guards to stop interlopers from attacking their Prince and kidnapping Myrcella and use this hostile act as propaganda for their war (especially since Jaime would provide them with a ''second'' valuable hostage). And they do all this underneath the gaze of Prince Doran himself. Even worse is the fact that Jaime and Bronn at least bothered with putting on disguises for their plan, while the Sand Snakes made no such attempt to conceal their identity and carrying carried out their high profile kidnapping themselves.
** Loras' trial requires a great deal of stupidity from many people. There's Loras being so open about his homosexuality, homosexuality in the first place, Loras again for continuing to see Olyver Olyvar after he had betrayed him once already, Loras once more for failing to defend himself in any meaningful fashion, Cersei for not realizing how ridiculously short-sighted this all was, Tommen for doing nothing to stop it, Olyver and Olyvar for his betrayal and aiding the guys whom he ''knows'' hate homosexuals with a passion. If any one of these characters didn't act like an idiot, the plot would grind to a screeching halt.
* InternetBackdraft: The final scene where Ramsay rapes Sansa as a crying Reek watches, caused a huge backlash from feminist groups and those who simply think it undermines Sansa's CharacterDevelopment and is merely gratuitous RapeAsDrama, in particular the fact that Sansa's development and tragedy are being sacrificed for Reek's own character development.
* TheScrappy: The Sand Snakes cement themselves as this. The Snakes themselves are widely disliked due to their LargeHam tendencies and poor writing, as well as the FightSceneFailure resulting in them coming across as {{Faux Action Girl}}s. What's makes it worse is the plot they're associated with: the complicated Queenmaker plot of the books admittedly needed some AdaptationDistillation, but the choice of [[{{Flanderization}} Flanderizing]] the Sand Snakes and derailing Ellaria Sand and the IdiotPlot of Jaime and Bronn has not pleased viewers. The ridiculous coincidence of both parties engaging their stupid plans ''at the exact same time'' is bizarre, and the choreography of their fight was extremely poor by the show's standards. In addition, the continued overacting of the Sand Snakes continues to draw criticism.
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None


** It seems like something in the air in Dorne makes characters act like complete idiots. The entire Dornish sequence required a lot of dumb actions from just about everyone involved in it, except for Trystance and Myrcella:

to:

** It seems like something in the air in Dorne makes characters act like complete idiots. The entire Dornish sequence required a lot of dumb actions from just about everyone involved in it, except for Trystance Trystane and Myrcella:



*** Also the Sand Snake's plot to kidnap Myrcella was similarly poorly planned, aiming to snatch her in plain daylight in front of Trystane, just like Jaime planned. What makes it worse is that they see Jaime and Bronn and ''proceed as planned anyway'', rather than calling the guards to stop interlopers from attacking their Prince and kidnapping Myrcella and use their action as propaganda for their war (especially since Jaime would provide them a ''second'' valuable hostage). They do all this underneath the gaze of Prince Doran himself. Even worse is the fact that Jaime and Bronn at least bothered with putting on disguises for their plan, while the Sand Snakes made no such attempt to conceal their identity carrying out their high profile kidnapping themselves.
** Loras' trial requires a great deal of stupidity from many people. Loras being so open about his homosexuality, Loras continuing to see Olyver after he had betrayed him once already, Loras again for failing to defend himself in any meaningful fashion, Cersei for not realizing how ridiculously short-sighted this was, Tommen for doing nothing to stop it, Olyver for his betrayal to help the guys whom he knows hate homosexuals with a passion. If any one of these characters didn't act like an idiot, the plot would grind to a screeching halt.

to:

*** Also the Sand Snake's plot to kidnap Myrcella was similarly poorly planned, executed, aiming to snatch her in plain daylight in front of Trystane, just like Jaime planned. What makes it worse is that they see Jaime and Bronn and ''' ''proceed as planned anyway'', anyway,'' ''' rather than than, you know, calling the guards to stop interlopers from attacking their Prince and kidnapping Myrcella and use their action this hostile act as propaganda for their war (especially since Jaime would provide them with a ''second'' valuable hostage). They And they do all this underneath the gaze of Prince Doran himself. Even worse is the fact that Jaime and Bronn at least bothered with putting on disguises for their plan, while the Sand Snakes made no such attempt to conceal their identity and carrying out their high profile kidnapping themselves.
** Loras' trial requires a great deal of stupidity from many people. There's Loras being so open about his homosexuality, Loras again continuing to see Olyver after he had betrayed him once already, Loras again once more for failing to defend himself in any meaningful fashion, Cersei for not realizing how ridiculously short-sighted this was, Tommen for doing nothing to stop it, Olyver for his betrayal to help and aiding the guys whom he knows ''knows'' hate homosexuals with a passion. If any one of these characters didn't act like an idiot, the plot would grind to a screeching halt.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** It seems like something in the air in Dorne makes characters act like complete idiots. The entire Dornish sequence required a lot of dumb actions from several parties:
*** On the side of the Dornish army, the fact they allowed Jaime to get so close to the Prince completely unimpeded is incredibly sloppy. They were wearing Dornish uniforms, but apparently no one noticed the missing soldiers, and no one cared that these two soldiers who are clearly from King's Landing were approaching the Prince.
** Doran spends an earlier scene talking about how the Sand Snakes are going to try something against Myrcella, but apparently doesn't see fit to have anyone actually keeping people from getting to her or escorting her.
*** Jaime's stealth mission to "rescue" Myrcella amounts to marching into the water gardens ''in broad daylight,'' in front of the Young Prince of Dorne, and straight up telling Myrcella to leave. As Bronn {{Lampshades}} he doesn't even have any idea how they will ''get out'' of Dorne. Then Bronn himself ruins everything by physically threatening Prince Doran's son and then pushing him. Didn't you guys want to avoid starting a war again?

to:

** It seems like something in the air in Dorne makes characters act like complete idiots. The entire Dornish sequence required a lot of dumb actions from several parties:
just about everyone involved in it, except for Trystance and Myrcella:
*** On the side of the Dornish army, the fact they allowed Jaime to get so close to the Prince completely unimpeded is incredibly sloppy. They were admittedly wearing Dornish uniforms, but apparently no one noticed the missing soldiers, and no one cared that these two soldiers - who are clearly not from King's Landing Dorne - were approaching the Prince.
** *** Doran spends an earlier scene talking about how the Sand Snakes are going to try something against Myrcella, but apparently doesn't see fit to have anyone actually keeping people from getting to her or escorting her.
*** Jaime's stealth mission to "rescue" Myrcella amounts to marching into the water gardens ''in broad daylight,'' in front of the Young Prince of Dorne, and straight up telling Myrcella to leave. As Bronn {{Lampshades}} , he doesn't even have any idea how they will ''get out'' of Dorne. Then Bronn himself ruins everything by physically threatening Prince Doran's son and then pushing him. Didn't you guys want to avoid ''avoid'' starting a war war, again?

Added: 219

Changed: 265

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** It seems like something in the air in Dorne makes characters act like complete idiots. The entire Dornish sequence required several parties to do a lot of dumb actions:
*** On the side of the Dornish army, the fact they allowed Jaime to get so close to the Prince completely unimpeded is incredibly sloppy. They were wearing Dornish uniforms, but apparently no one noticed the missing soldiers, and no one cared that these two soldiers who are clearly from King's Landing were approaching the Prince. Doran even spends an earlier scene talking about how the Sand Snakes are going to try something against Myrcella, but apparently doesn't see fit to have anyone actually keeping people from getting to her or escorting her.

to:

** It seems like something in the air in Dorne makes characters act like complete idiots. The entire Dornish sequence required several parties to do a lot of dumb actions:
actions from several parties:
*** On the side of the Dornish army, the fact they allowed Jaime to get so close to the Prince completely unimpeded is incredibly sloppy. They were wearing Dornish uniforms, but apparently no one noticed the missing soldiers, and no one cared that these two soldiers who are clearly from King's Landing were approaching the Prince.
**
Doran even spends an earlier scene talking about how the Sand Snakes are going to try something against Myrcella, but apparently doesn't see fit to have anyone actually keeping people from getting to her or escorting her.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* FightSceneFailure: Jaime and Bronn's fight with the Sand Snakes. Compared to Oberyn's graceful skill with the spear, Obara's twirling comes across as clumsy and slow. Nymeria's contribution to the fight seems to be whipping from a distance, which characters treat as an annoyance at most, and Tyene just sort of flails her daggers. In the end, the Snakes didn't really put up any more of a fight than the mooks that Jaime and Bronn got their uniforms from.

to:

* FightSceneFailure: Jaime and Bronn's fight with the Sand Snakes. Compared to Oberyn's graceful skill with the spear, Obara's twirling comes across as [[http://38.media.tumblr.com/7cb6d1daffa1ab2926c1a82549d079f4/tumblr_inline_nokmyqazDa1rku3fs_540.gif clumsy and slow. slow]]. Nymeria's contribution to the fight seems to be whipping from a distance, which characters treat as an annoyance at most, and [[http://33.media.tumblr.com/0f1bc9fd68fa50d24996bb37d67a600d/tumblr_inline_nokmxtqcuG1rku3fs_540.gif Tyene just sort of flails her daggers.daggers]]. In the end, the Snakes didn't really put up any more of a fight than the mooks that Jaime and Bronn got their uniforms from.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Loras' trial requires a great deal of stupidity from many people. Loras being so open about his homosexuality, Loras continuing to see Olyver after he had betrayed him once already, Loras again for failing to defend himself in any meaningful fashion, Cersei for not realizing how ridiculously short-sighted this was, Tommen for doing nothing to stop it, Olyver for his betrayal to help the guys whom he knows hate homosexuals with a passion. If any one of these characters didn't act like idiot, the plot would grind to a screeching halt.

to:

** Loras' trial requires a great deal of stupidity from many people. Loras being so open about his homosexuality, Loras continuing to see Olyver after he had betrayed him once already, Loras again for failing to defend himself in any meaningful fashion, Cersei for not realizing how ridiculously short-sighted this was, Tommen for doing nothing to stop it, Olyver for his betrayal to help the guys whom he knows hate homosexuals with a passion. If any one of these characters didn't act like an idiot, the plot would grind to a screeching halt.



* TheScrappy: The Sand Snakes cement themselves as this. The Snakes themselves are widely disliked due to their LargeHam tendencies and poor writing, as well as the FightSceneFailure resulting in them coming across as {{Faux Action Girl}}s. What's made worse is the plot they're associated with: the complicated Queenmaker plot of the books admittedly needed some AdaptationDistillation, but the choice of [[{{Flanderization}} Flanderizing]] the Sand Snakes and derailing Ellaria Sand and the IdiotPlot of Jaime and Bronn has not pleased viewers. The ridiculous coincidence of both parties engaging their stupid plans ''at the same time'' is bizarre, and the choreography of their fight was poor by the show's standards. In addition, the continued overacting of the Sand Snakes continues to draw criticism.

to:

* TheScrappy: The Sand Snakes cement themselves as this. The Snakes themselves are widely disliked due to their LargeHam tendencies and poor writing, as well as the FightSceneFailure resulting in them coming across as {{Faux Action Girl}}s. What's made makes it worse is the plot they're associated with: the complicated Queenmaker plot of the books admittedly needed some AdaptationDistillation, but the choice of [[{{Flanderization}} Flanderizing]] the Sand Snakes and derailing Ellaria Sand and the IdiotPlot of Jaime and Bronn has not pleased viewers. The ridiculous coincidence of both parties engaging their stupid plans ''at the same time'' is bizarre, and the choreography of their fight was poor by the show's standards. In addition, the continued overacting of the Sand Snakes continues to draw criticism.
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Plenty have complained about the other rape/sexual violence scenes. This is natter too.


** The more virulent critics who complained specifically of rape being portrayed have been undermined somewhat by other groups, who note that there was no such reaction for very similar and even worse scenes from the show, such as Drogo's rape of Daeneryes and Reek's castration. The secondary point of Sansa's torment being used solely Reek's storyline have been agreed as more valid, though it may be validated by later episodes.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** The more virulent critics who complained specifically of rape being portrayed have been undermined somewhat by other groups, who note that there was no such reaction for very similar and even worse scenes from the show, such as Drogo's rape of Daeneryes and Reek's castration. The secondary point of Sansa's torment being used solely Reek's storyline have been agreed as more valid, though it may be validated by later episodes.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** The Dornish sequence requires most everyone in Dorne to act like complete idiots.
*** On the side of the Dornish army, the fact they allowed Jaime to get so close to the Prince completely unimpeded is incredibly sloppy. They were wearing Dornish uniforms, but apparently no one noticed the missing soldiers, and no one cared that these two soldiers who are clearly from King's Landing were approaching the Prince.

to:

** The Dornish sequence requires most everyone It seems like something in the air in Dorne to makes characters act like complete idiots.
idiots. The entire Dornish sequence required several parties to do a lot of dumb actions:
*** On the side of the Dornish army, the fact they allowed Jaime to get so close to the Prince completely unimpeded is incredibly sloppy. They were wearing Dornish uniforms, but apparently no one noticed the missing soldiers, and no one cared that these two soldiers who are clearly from King's Landing were approaching the Prince. Doran even spends an earlier scene talking about how the Sand Snakes are going to try something against Myrcella, but apparently doesn't see fit to have anyone actually keeping people from getting to her or escorting her.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* BrokenBase: The changes to Sansa's story and merging it with Jeyne Poole has disappointed many fans of the books and the show. On some level, the scene itself has RapeDiscretionShot by the series standards, and is ''far'' tamer than [[RapeByProxy the corresponding scene in the books]]. On the other hand some feel that it ruins the CharacterDevelopment promised at the end of Season 4 and once again victimizes her for shock value. Especially when the scene in question follows Sansa mocking and insulting Myranda and Theon (for understandable reasons), fans feel that its almost shown as a BreakTheHaughty moment for underestimating Ramsay and dislike the entire sequence as tasteless RapeAsDrama, especially since Sansa ''already'' underwent the same arc with Joffrey in Seasons 1-3 and had moved on to a different storyline in the corresponding books.

to:

* BrokenBase: The changes to Sansa's story and from [[AdaptationDistillation merging it with Jeyne Poole has Poole's]] have disappointed many fans of the books and the show. On some level, the scene itself has RapeDiscretionShot by the series standards, and is ''far'' tamer than [[RapeByProxy the corresponding scene in the books]]. On the other hand some feel that it ruins the CharacterDevelopment promised at the end of Season 4 and once again victimizes her for shock value. Especially when the scene in question follows Sansa mocking and insulting Myranda and Theon (for understandable reasons), fans feel that its almost shown as a BreakTheHaughty moment for underestimating Ramsay and dislike the entire sequence as tasteless RapeAsDrama, especially since Sansa ''already'' underwent the same arc with Joffrey in Seasons 1-3 and had moved on to a different storyline in the corresponding books.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* BrokenBase: The changes to Sansa's story and merging it with Jeyne Poole has disappointed many fans of the books and the show. On some level, the scene itself has RapeDiscretionShot by the series standards, and is ''far'' tamer to the corresponding scene in the books. On the other hand some feel that it ruins the CharacterDevelopment promised at the end of Season 4 and once again victimizes her for shock value. Especially when the scene in question follows Sansa mocking and insulting Myranda and Theon (for understandable reasons), fans feel that its almost shown as a BreakTheHaughty moment for underestimating Ramsay and dislike the entire sequence as tasteless RapeAsDrama, especially since Sansa ''already'' underwent the same arc with Joffrey in Seasons 1-3 and had moved on to a different storyline in the corresponding books.

to:

* BrokenBase: The changes to Sansa's story and merging it with Jeyne Poole has disappointed many fans of the books and the show. On some level, the scene itself has RapeDiscretionShot by the series standards, and is ''far'' tamer to than [[RapeByProxy the corresponding scene in the books.books]]. On the other hand some feel that it ruins the CharacterDevelopment promised at the end of Season 4 and once again victimizes her for shock value. Especially when the scene in question follows Sansa mocking and insulting Myranda and Theon (for understandable reasons), fans feel that its almost shown as a BreakTheHaughty moment for underestimating Ramsay and dislike the entire sequence as tasteless RapeAsDrama, especially since Sansa ''already'' underwent the same arc with Joffrey in Seasons 1-3 and had moved on to a different storyline in the corresponding books.

Added: 1211

Changed: 1373

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None


** The Dornish sequence requires both Jaime and the Sand Snakes to act like complete idiots. Jaime's stealth mission to "rescue" Myrcella amounts to marching into the water gardens ''in broad daylight,'' in front of the Young Prince of Dorne, and straight up telling Myrcella to leave. As Bronn {{Lampshades}} he doesn't even have any idea how they will ''get out'' of Dorne. Then Bronn himself ruins everything by physically threatening Prince Doran's son and then pushing him. Didn't you guys want to avoid starting a war again?
** Also the Sand Snake's plot to kidnap Myrcella was similarly poorly planned, aiming to snatch her in plain daylight in front of Trystane, just like Jaime planned. What makes it worse is that they see Jaime and Bronn and ''proceed as planned anyway'', rather than calling the guards to stop interlopers from attacking their Prince and kidnapping Myrcella and use their action as propaganda for their war (especially since Jaime would provide them a ''second'' valuable hostage). They do all this underneath the gaze of Prince Doran himself. Even worse is the fact that Jaime and Bronn at least bothered with putting on disguises for their plan, while the Sand Snakes made no such attempt to conceal their identity carrying out their high profile kidnapping themselves.

to:

** The Dornish sequence requires both Jaime and the Sand Snakes most everyone in Dorne to act like complete idiots. idiots.
*** On the side of the Dornish army, the fact they allowed Jaime to get so close to the Prince completely unimpeded is incredibly sloppy. They were wearing Dornish uniforms, but apparently no one noticed the missing soldiers, and no one cared that these two soldiers who are clearly from King's Landing were approaching the Prince.
***
Jaime's stealth mission to "rescue" Myrcella amounts to marching into the water gardens ''in broad daylight,'' in front of the Young Prince of Dorne, and straight up telling Myrcella to leave. As Bronn {{Lampshades}} he doesn't even have any idea how they will ''get out'' of Dorne. Then Bronn himself ruins everything by physically threatening Prince Doran's son and then pushing him. Didn't you guys want to avoid starting a war again?
** *** Also the Sand Snake's plot to kidnap Myrcella was similarly poorly planned, aiming to snatch her in plain daylight in front of Trystane, just like Jaime planned. What makes it worse is that they see Jaime and Bronn and ''proceed as planned anyway'', rather than calling the guards to stop interlopers from attacking their Prince and kidnapping Myrcella and use their action as propaganda for their war (especially since Jaime would provide them a ''second'' valuable hostage). They do all this underneath the gaze of Prince Doran himself. Even worse is the fact that Jaime and Bronn at least bothered with putting on disguises for their plan, while the Sand Snakes made no such attempt to conceal their identity carrying out their high profile kidnapping themselves.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Loras' trial requires a great deal of stupidity from many people. Loras being so open about his homosexuality, Loras continuing to see Olyver after he had betrayed him once already, Cersei for not realizing how ridiculously short-sighted this was, Tommen for doing nothing to stop it, Olyver for his betrayal to help the guys whom he knows hate homosexuals with a passion. If any one of these characters didn't act like idiot, the plot would grind to a screeching halt.

to:

** Loras' trial requires a great deal of stupidity from many people. Loras being so open about his homosexuality, Loras continuing to see Olyver after he had betrayed him once already, Loras again for failing to defend himself in any meaningful fashion, Cersei for not realizing how ridiculously short-sighted this was, Tommen for doing nothing to stop it, Olyver for his betrayal to help the guys whom he knows hate homosexuals with a passion. If any one of these characters didn't act like idiot, the plot would grind to a screeching halt.
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* InternetBackdraft: The final scene caused a huge backlash from feminist groups and those who simply think it undermines Sansa's CharacterDevelopment and gratuitous RapeAsDrama, in particular the fact that Sansa's development and tragedy are being sacrificed for Reek's own character development.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Loras' trial requires a great deal of stupidity from many people. Loras being so open about his homosexuality, Cersei for not realizing how ridiculously short-sighted this was, Tommen for doing nothing to stop it, Olyver for his betrayal to help the guys whom he knows hate homosexuals with a passion. If any one of these characters didn't act like idiot, the plot would grind to a screeching halt.

to:

** Loras' trial requires a great deal of stupidity from many people. Loras being so open about his homosexuality, Loras continuing to see Olyver after he had betrayed him once already, Cersei for not realizing how ridiculously short-sighted this was, Tommen for doing nothing to stop it, Olyver for his betrayal to help the guys whom he knows hate homosexuals with a passion. If any one of these characters didn't act like idiot, the plot would grind to a screeching halt.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Loras' trial requires a great deal of stupidity from many people. Loras being so open about his homosexuality (including continuing to see Olyver, who betrayed him once before), Cersei for not realizing how ridiculously short-sighted this was, Tommen for doing nothing to stop it, Olyver for his betrayal to help the guys whom he knows hate homosexuals with a passion. If any one of these characters didn't act like idiot, the plot would grind to a screeching halt.

to:

** Loras' trial requires a great deal of stupidity from many people. Loras being so open about his homosexuality (including continuing to see Olyver, who betrayed him once before), homosexuality, Cersei for not realizing how ridiculously short-sighted this was, Tommen for doing nothing to stop it, Olyver for his betrayal to help the guys whom he knows hate homosexuals with a passion. If any one of these characters didn't act like idiot, the plot would grind to a screeching halt.

Added: 1274

Changed: 1778

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Broken Base doesn\'t mean \"There are complaints.\"


* BrokenBase: This might become the most controversial episode of the entire series:
** The changes to Sansa's story and merging it with Jeyne Poole has disappointed many fans of the books and the shows. On some level, the scene itself has RapeDiscretionShot by the series standards, and is ''far'' tamer to the corresponding scene in the books. On the other hand some feel that it ruins the CharacterDevelopment promised at the end of Season 4 and once again victimizes her for shock value. Especially when the scene in question follows Sansa mocking and insulting Myranda and Theon (for understandable reasons), fans feel that its almost shown as a BreakTheHaughty moment for underestimating Ramsay and dislike the entire sequence as tasteless RapeAsDrama, especially since Sansa ''already'' underwent the same arc with Joffrey in Seasons 1-3 and had moved on to a different storyline in the corresponding books.
** The Sand Snakes storyline. The complicated Queenmaker plot of the books admittedly needed some AdaptationDistillation, but the choice of [[{{Flanderization}} Flanderizing]] the Sand Snakes and derailing Ellaria Sand and the IdiotPlot of Jaime and Bronn has not pleased viewers. The ridiculous coincidence of both parties engaging their stupid plans ''at the same time'' is bizarre, and the choreography of their fight was poor by the show's standards. In addition, the continued overacting of the Sand Snakes continues to draw criticism.

to:

* BrokenBase: This might become the most controversial episode of the entire series:
**
The changes to Sansa's story and merging it with Jeyne Poole has disappointed many fans of the books and the shows.show. On some level, the scene itself has RapeDiscretionShot by the series standards, and is ''far'' tamer to the corresponding scene in the books. On the other hand some feel that it ruins the CharacterDevelopment promised at the end of Season 4 and once again victimizes her for shock value. Especially when the scene in question follows Sansa mocking and insulting Myranda and Theon (for understandable reasons), fans feel that its almost shown as a BreakTheHaughty moment for underestimating Ramsay and dislike the entire sequence as tasteless RapeAsDrama, especially since Sansa ''already'' underwent the same arc with Joffrey in Seasons 1-3 and had moved on to a different storyline in the corresponding books.
** The Sand Snakes storyline. The complicated Queenmaker plot of the books admittedly needed some AdaptationDistillation, but the choice of [[{{Flanderization}} Flanderizing]] * FightSceneFailure: Jaime and Bronn's fight with the Sand Snakes. Compared to Oberyn's graceful skill with the spear, Obara's twirling comes across as clumsy and slow. Nymeria's contribution to the fight seems to be whipping from a distance, which characters treat as an annoyance at most, and Tyene just sort of flails her daggers. In the end, the Snakes and derailing Ellaria Sand and didn't really put up any more of a fight than the IdiotPlot of mooks that Jaime and Bronn has not pleased viewers. The ridiculous coincidence of both parties engaging got their stupid plans ''at the same time'' is bizarre, and the choreography of their fight was poor by the show's standards. In addition, the continued overacting of the Sand Snakes continues to draw criticism.uniforms from.


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** Loras' trial requires a great deal of stupidity from many people. Loras being so open about his homosexuality (including continuing to see Olyver, who betrayed him once before), Cersei for not realizing how ridiculously short-sighted this was, Tommen for doing nothing to stop it, Olyver for his betrayal to help the guys whom he knows hate homosexuals with a passion. If any one of these characters didn't act like idiot, the plot would grind to a screeching halt.
* TheScrappy: The Sand Snakes cement themselves as this. The Snakes themselves are widely disliked due to their LargeHam tendencies and poor writing, as well as the FightSceneFailure resulting in them coming across as {{Faux Action Girl}}s. What's made worse is the plot they're associated with: the complicated Queenmaker plot of the books admittedly needed some AdaptationDistillation, but the choice of [[{{Flanderization}} Flanderizing]] the Sand Snakes and derailing Ellaria Sand and the IdiotPlot of Jaime and Bronn has not pleased viewers. The ridiculous coincidence of both parties engaging their stupid plans ''at the same time'' is bizarre, and the choreography of their fight was poor by the show's standards. In addition, the continued overacting of the Sand Snakes continues to draw criticism.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Also the Sand Snake's plot to kidnap Myrcella was similarly poorly planned, aiming to snatch her in plain daylight in front of Trystane, just like Jaime planned. What makes it worse is that they see Jaime and Bronn and ''proceed as planned anyway'', rather than calling the guards to stop interlopers from attacking their Prince and kidnapping Myrcella and use their action as propaganda for their war (especially since Jaime would provide them a ''second'' valuable hostage). They do all this underneath the gaze of Prince Doran himself. Even worse is the fact that Jaime and Bronn at least bothered with putting on disguises for their plan, while the Sand Snakes made no such attempt to conceal their identity during their high profile kidnapping themselves.

to:

** Also the Sand Snake's plot to kidnap Myrcella was similarly poorly planned, aiming to snatch her in plain daylight in front of Trystane, just like Jaime planned. What makes it worse is that they see Jaime and Bronn and ''proceed as planned anyway'', rather than calling the guards to stop interlopers from attacking their Prince and kidnapping Myrcella and use their action as propaganda for their war (especially since Jaime would provide them a ''second'' valuable hostage). They do all this underneath the gaze of Prince Doran himself. Even worse is the fact that Jaime and Bronn at least bothered with putting on disguises for their plan, while the Sand Snakes made no such attempt to conceal their identity during carrying out their high profile kidnapping themselves.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Also the Sand Snake's plot to kidnap Myrcella was similarly poorly planned, aiming to snatch her in plain daylight in front of Trystane, just like Jaime planned. What makes it worse is that they see Jaime and Bronn and ''proceed as planned anyway'', rather than calling the guards to stop interlopers from attacking their Prince and kidnapping Myrcella and use their action as propaganda for their war (especially since Jaime would provide them a ''second'' valuable hostage). They do all this underneath the gaze of Prince Doran himself

to:

** Also the Sand Snake's plot to kidnap Myrcella was similarly poorly planned, aiming to snatch her in plain daylight in front of Trystane, just like Jaime planned. What makes it worse is that they see Jaime and Bronn and ''proceed as planned anyway'', rather than calling the guards to stop interlopers from attacking their Prince and kidnapping Myrcella and use their action as propaganda for their war (especially since Jaime would provide them a ''second'' valuable hostage). They do all this underneath the gaze of Prince Doran himself himself. Even worse is the fact that Jaime and Bronn at least bothered with putting on disguises for their plan, while the Sand Snakes made no such attempt to conceal their identity during their high profile kidnapping themselves.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** The changes to Sansa's story and merging it with Jeyne Poole has disappointed many fans of the books and the shows. On some level, the scene itself has RapeDiscretionShot by the series standards, and is ''far'' tamer to the corresponding scene in the books. On the other hand some feel that it ruins the CharacterDevelopment promised at the end of Season 4 and once again victimizes her for shock value. Especially when the scene in question follows Sansa mocking and insulting Myranda and Theon (for understandable reasons), fans feel that its almost shown as a BreakTheHaughty moment for underestimating Ramsay and dislike the entire sequence as tasteless RapeAsDrama, especially since Sansa already underwent the same arc with Joffrey in Seasons 1-3 and had moved on to a different storyline in the corresponding books.
** The Sand Snakes storyline. The complicated Queenmaker plot of the books needed some AdaptationDistillation, but the choice of [[{{Flanderization}} Flanderizing]] the Sand Snakes and derailing Ellaria Sand and the IdiotPlot of Jaime and Bronn has not pleased viewers. The ridiculous coincidence of both parties engaging their stupid plans at the same time is bizarre, and the choreography of their fight was poor by the show's standards. The continued overacting of the Sand Snakes continues to draw criticism.

to:

** The changes to Sansa's story and merging it with Jeyne Poole has disappointed many fans of the books and the shows. On some level, the scene itself has RapeDiscretionShot by the series standards, and is ''far'' tamer to the corresponding scene in the books. On the other hand some feel that it ruins the CharacterDevelopment promised at the end of Season 4 and once again victimizes her for shock value. Especially when the scene in question follows Sansa mocking and insulting Myranda and Theon (for understandable reasons), fans feel that its almost shown as a BreakTheHaughty moment for underestimating Ramsay and dislike the entire sequence as tasteless RapeAsDrama, especially since Sansa already ''already'' underwent the same arc with Joffrey in Seasons 1-3 and had moved on to a different storyline in the corresponding books.
** The Sand Snakes storyline. The complicated Queenmaker plot of the books admittedly needed some AdaptationDistillation, but the choice of [[{{Flanderization}} Flanderizing]] the Sand Snakes and derailing Ellaria Sand and the IdiotPlot of Jaime and Bronn has not pleased viewers. The ridiculous coincidence of both parties engaging their stupid plans at ''at the same time time'' is bizarre, and the choreography of their fight was poor by the show's standards. The In addition, the continued overacting of the Sand Snakes continues to draw criticism.



** The Dornish sequence requires Jaime and the Sand Snakes to act like complete idiots. Jaime's stealth mission to "rescue" Myrcella amounts to marching into the water gardens in broad daylight, in front of the Young Prince of Dorne, and straight up telling Myrcella to leave. As Bronn {{Lampshades}} he doesn't even have any idea how they will ''get out'' of Dorne. Then Bronn himself ruins everything by physically threatening Prince Doran's son and then pushing him. Didn't you guys want to avoid starting a war?
** Also the Sand Snake's plot to kidnap Myrcella was similarly poorly planned, to just snatch her in plain daylight from Trystane just like Jaime planned. What makes it worse is that they see Jaime and Bronn and ''proceed as planned anyway'', rather than calling the guards to stop interlopers from attacking their Prince and kidnapping Myrcella and use their action as propaganda for their war (especially since Jaime would provide them a ''second'' valuable hostage). They do all this underneath the gaze of Prince Doran himself

to:

** The Dornish sequence requires both Jaime and the Sand Snakes to act like complete idiots. Jaime's stealth mission to "rescue" Myrcella amounts to marching into the water gardens in ''in broad daylight, daylight,'' in front of the Young Prince of Dorne, and straight up telling Myrcella to leave. As Bronn {{Lampshades}} he doesn't even have any idea how they will ''get out'' of Dorne. Then Bronn himself ruins everything by physically threatening Prince Doran's son and then pushing him. Didn't you guys want to avoid starting a war?
war again?
** Also the Sand Snake's plot to kidnap Myrcella was similarly poorly planned, aiming to just snatch her in plain daylight from Trystane in front of Trystane, just like Jaime planned. What makes it worse is that they see Jaime and Bronn and ''proceed as planned anyway'', rather than calling the guards to stop interlopers from attacking their Prince and kidnapping Myrcella and use their action as propaganda for their war (especially since Jaime would provide them a ''second'' valuable hostage). They do all this underneath the gaze of Prince Doran himself
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** The Sand Snakes storyline. The complicated Queenmaker plot of the books needed some AdaptationDistillation, but the choice of [[{{Flanderization}} Flanderizing]] the Sand Snakes and derailing Ellaria Sand and the IdiotPlot of Jaime and Bronn has not pleased viewers. The ridiculous coincidence of both parties engaging their stupid plans at the same time is bizarre, and the choreography of their fight was poor by the show's standards. The continued overracting of the Sand Snakes continues to draw criticism.

to:

** The Sand Snakes storyline. The complicated Queenmaker plot of the books needed some AdaptationDistillation, but the choice of [[{{Flanderization}} Flanderizing]] the Sand Snakes and derailing Ellaria Sand and the IdiotPlot of Jaime and Bronn has not pleased viewers. The ridiculous coincidence of both parties engaging their stupid plans at the same time is bizarre, and the choreography of their fight was poor by the show's standards. The continued overracting overacting of the Sand Snakes continues to draw criticism.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** The Dornish sequence requires Jaime and the Sand Snakes to act like complete idiots. Jaime's stealth mission to "rescue" Myrcella amounts to marching into the water gardens in broad daylight, in front of the Young Prince of Dorne, and straight up telling Myrcella to leave. As Bronn {{Lampshades}} he doesn't even have any idea how they will ''get out'' of Dorne. Then Bronn himself ruins everything by physically threatening Prince Doran's son and then pushing him. Didn't you guys want to avoid starting a war? Then we have the Sand Snakes. Rather than calling the guards to stop interlopers from attacking their Prince and kidnapping Myrcella, they instead decide to attack them in turn, all underneath the gaze of Prince Doran himself.
** Also the Sand Snake's plot to kidnap Myrcella was similarly poorly planned, to just snatch her in plain daylight from Trystane just like Jaime planned.

to:

** The Dornish sequence requires Jaime and the Sand Snakes to act like complete idiots. Jaime's stealth mission to "rescue" Myrcella amounts to marching into the water gardens in broad daylight, in front of the Young Prince of Dorne, and straight up telling Myrcella to leave. As Bronn {{Lampshades}} he doesn't even have any idea how they will ''get out'' of Dorne. Then Bronn himself ruins everything by physically threatening Prince Doran's son and then pushing him. Didn't you guys want to avoid starting a war? Then we have the Sand Snakes. Rather than calling the guards to stop interlopers from attacking their Prince and kidnapping Myrcella, they instead decide to attack them in turn, all underneath the gaze of Prince Doran himself.
war?
** Also the Sand Snake's plot to kidnap Myrcella was similarly poorly planned, to just snatch her in plain daylight from Trystane just like Jaime planned. What makes it worse is that they see Jaime and Bronn and ''proceed as planned anyway'', rather than calling the guards to stop interlopers from attacking their Prince and kidnapping Myrcella and use their action as propaganda for their war (especially since Jaime would provide them a ''second'' valuable hostage). They do all this underneath the gaze of Prince Doran himself

Added: 77

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Just merging the whole toning down scene in the book to the main bullet point...and I don\'t quite get the point of the second bullet, in any case I have clarified that some people are fine with it. This isn\'t a discussion page.


** The changes to Sansa's story and merging it with Jeyne Poole has disappointed many fans of the books and the shows. On some level, the scene itself has RapeDiscretionShot by the series standards, on the other hand some feel that it ruins the CharacterDevelopment promised at the end of Season 4 and once again victimizes her for shock value. Especially when the scene in question follows Sansa mocking and insulting Myranda and Theon (for understandable reasons), fans feel that its almost shown as a BreakTheHaughty moment for underestimating Ramsay and dislike the entire sequence as tasteless RapeAsDrama, especially since Sansa already underwent the same arc with Joffrey in Seasons 1-3 and had moved on to a different storyline in the corresponding books.
*** Other fans find it fitting perfectly with the tone of the show, and an appropriate adaption of a notoriously horrifying scene from the books. In fact the scene is tamer compared to the book's equivalent, where Theon is basically raped by Ramsay too, but a more faithful adaption would be basically unfilmable.
*** Sansa has made real progress and become stronger as a character as shown by her earlier scenes in the episode: if this episode has occurred to a younger Sansa, it would have broken her. But this scene reinforces that she is still in a weak position and just how deplorable the Boltons really area. Any other outcome would be out of character for Ramsay

to:

** The changes to Sansa's story and merging it with Jeyne Poole has disappointed many fans of the books and the shows. On some level, the scene itself has RapeDiscretionShot by the series standards, on and is ''far'' tamer to the corresponding scene in the books. On the other hand some feel that it ruins the CharacterDevelopment promised at the end of Season 4 and once again victimizes her for shock value. Especially when the scene in question follows Sansa mocking and insulting Myranda and Theon (for understandable reasons), fans feel that its almost shown as a BreakTheHaughty moment for underestimating Ramsay and dislike the entire sequence as tasteless RapeAsDrama, especially since Sansa already underwent the same arc with Joffrey in Seasons 1-3 and had moved on to a different storyline in the corresponding books.
*** Other fans find it fitting perfectly with the tone of the show, and an appropriate adaption of a notoriously horrifying scene from the books. In fact the scene is tamer compared to the book's equivalent, where Theon is basically raped by Ramsay too, but a more faithful adaption would be basically unfilmable.
*** Sansa has made real progress and become stronger as a character as shown by her earlier scenes in the episode: if this episode has occurred to a younger Sansa, it would have broken her. But this scene reinforces that she is still in a weak position and just how deplorable the Boltons really area. Any other outcome would be out of character for Ramsay
books.


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* VisualEffectsOfAwesome: The Hall of Faces looks amazing, spooky and grand.
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None


** Als the Sand Snake's plot to kidnap Myrcella was similarly poorly planned, to just snatch her in plain daylight from Trystan just like Jaime planned.

to:

** Als Also the Sand Snake's plot to kidnap Myrcella was similarly poorly planned, to just snatch her in plain daylight from Trystan Trystane just like Jaime planned.

Added: 1022

Changed: 423

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** The Sand Snakes storyline. The complicated Queenmaker plot of the books needed some AdaptationDistillation, but the choice of [[{{Flanderization}} Flanderizing]] the Sand Snakes and derailing Ellaria Sand and the IdiotPlot of Jaime and Bronn has not pleased viewers.

to:

*** Other fans find it fitting perfectly with the tone of the show, and an appropriate adaption of a notoriously horrifying scene from the books. In fact the scene is tamer compared to the book's equivalent, where Theon is basically raped by Ramsay too, but a more faithful adaption would be basically unfilmable.
*** Sansa has made real progress and become stronger as a character as shown by her earlier scenes in the episode: if this episode has occurred to a younger Sansa, it would have broken her. But this scene reinforces that she is still in a weak position and just how deplorable the Boltons really area. Any other outcome would be out of character for Ramsay
** The Sand Snakes storyline. The complicated Queenmaker plot of the books needed some AdaptationDistillation, but the choice of [[{{Flanderization}} Flanderizing]] the Sand Snakes and derailing Ellaria Sand and the IdiotPlot of Jaime and Bronn has not pleased viewers. The ridiculous coincidence of both parties engaging their stupid plans at the same time is bizarre, and the choreography of their fight was poor by the show's standards. The continued overracting of the Sand Snakes continues to draw criticism.


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** Als the Sand Snake's plot to kidnap Myrcella was similarly poorly planned, to just snatch her in plain daylight from Trystan just like Jaime planned.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* BrokenBase: This might become the most controversial episode of the entire series:
** The changes to Sansa's story and merging it with Jeyne Poole has disappointed many fans of the books and the shows. On some level, the scene itself has RapeDiscretionShot by the series standards, on the other hand some feel that it ruins the CharacterDevelopment promised at the end of Season 4 and once again victimizes her for shock value. Especially when the scene in question follows Sansa mocking and insulting Myranda and Theon (for understandable reasons), fans feel that its almost shown as a BreakTheHaughty moment for underestimating Ramsay and dislike the entire sequence as tasteless RapeAsDrama, especially since Sansa already underwent the same arc with Joffrey in Seasons 1-3 and had moved on to a different storyline in the corresponding books.
** The Sand Snakes storyline. The complicated Queenmaker plot of the books needed some AdaptationDistillation, but the choice of [[{{Flanderization}} Flanderizing]] the Sand Snakes and derailing Ellaria Sand and the IdiotPlot of Jaime and Bronn has not pleased viewers.
* IdiotPlot: Again common here:
** The Dornish sequence requires Jaime and the Sand Snakes to act like complete idiots. Jaime's stealth mission to "rescue" Myrcella amounts to marching into the water gardens in broad daylight, in front of the Young Prince of Dorne, and straight up telling Myrcella to leave. As Bronn {{Lampshades}} he doesn't even have any idea how they will ''get out'' of Dorne. Then Bronn himself ruins everything by physically threatening Prince Doran's son and then pushing him. Didn't you guys want to avoid starting a war? Then we have the Sand Snakes. Rather than calling the guards to stop interlopers from attacking their Prince and kidnapping Myrcella, they instead decide to attack them in turn, all underneath the gaze of Prince Doran himself.

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