History YMMV / DragonAgeII

7th Aug '17 4:44:25 PM LadyNorbert
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*** Many non-mage players alternately ship him with Bethany, with whom he is shown to have considerable ShipTease.



** A meta one: per WordOfGod, Cullen initially fails to notice a mage Hawke is a mage because "[he's] just very oblivious." According to ''Inquisition'' and ''World of Thedas'', he was also oblivious to the extent of the abuses at the Gallows, some of it taking place right in the courtyard.

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** A meta one: per WordOfGod, Cullen initially fails to notice a mage Hawke is a mage because "[he's] just very oblivious." According to ''Inquisition'' and ''World of Thedas'', he was also oblivious to the extent of the abuses at the Gallows, despite some of it taking place right in the courtyard.



* IncestYayShipping: Hawke and Bethany. Owners of the PC version can even mod Merrill to have Bethany's appearance. There are plenty of fanfictions shipping Hawke with Bethany (or sometimes Carver too).

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* IncestYayShipping: Hawke and Bethany. Owners of the PC version can even mod the game to enable a Bethany romance, or mod Merrill to have Bethany's appearance. There are plenty of fanfictions shipping Hawke with Bethany (or sometimes Carver too).



* LauncherOfAThousandShips: Fenris, being shipped with [[RomanceSidequest both female and male Hawke]], [[FoeYay Anders, Merrill]], [[OddFriendship Sebastian]], [[FriendsWithBenefits Isabela]], and sometimes [[ShipsThatPassInTheNight Zevran, and even Dorian]].

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* LauncherOfAThousandShips: Fenris, being shipped with [[RomanceSidequest both female and male Hawke]], [[FoeYay Anders, Merrill]], [[OddFriendship Sebastian]], Sebastian, Bethany]], [[FriendsWithBenefits Isabela]], and sometimes [[ShipsThatPassInTheNight Zevran, and even Dorian]].



** Before its cancellation led it to being [[WhatCouldHaveBeen held back]] for the third game, many at Bioware have suggested that the ''Exalted Marches'' expansion would have been a further attempt [[AuthorsSavingThrow to do this]].

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** Before its cancellation led it to being [[WhatCouldHaveBeen held back]] for the third game, many at Bioware have suggested that the ''Exalted Marches'' March'' expansion would have been a further attempt [[AuthorsSavingThrow to do this]].



** As mentioned in DesignatedHero above, the game paints Gamlen as being completely in the wrong for ''everything'', yet he does make some valid points. Leandra and Bethany/Carver act like he's selling Hawke and Sibling into slavery when he suggests a year of indentured servitude in exchange for passage into into the city, yet he's not wrong when he says the family fortune ''is'' gone (however it went), this ''is'' their only option, and also that the large influx of unskilled immigrant labor into the city would make jobs very limited, so "think of it as having a job waiting for you once you get in." Sure enough...[[note]]a year later most Blight refugees are toiling away in dead-end poverty ''at best'', whereas the connections and reputation that Hawke gains from a year running with the gang/mercenary company ensures that s/he leaves with better job offers (such as being offered an equal partnership in Varric and Bartrand's business venture) than most Kirkwall natives could dream.[[/note]] While Gamlen is wrong for having stolen and gambled his sister's inheritance away, he still makes a point that Leandra ''chose'' to leave the fortune behind years ago. Finally, the game treats Gamlen asking Leandra for rent as a very unreasonable request, yet by the time he asks she's been sitting in his house doing nothing (neither chores nor job-hunting) for ''over a year'', so it's perfectly reasonable for him to ask her to pitch in if she has no intention of moving out.

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** As mentioned in DesignatedHero above, the game paints Gamlen as being completely in the wrong for ''everything'', yet he does make some valid points. Leandra and Bethany/Carver act acts like he's selling Hawke and Sibling into slavery when he suggests a year of indentured servitude in exchange for passage into into the city, yet he's not wrong when he says the family fortune ''is'' gone (however it went), this ''is'' their only option, and also that the large influx of unskilled immigrant labor into the city would make jobs very limited, so "think of it as having a job waiting for you once you get in." Sure enough...[[note]]a year later most Blight refugees are toiling away in dead-end poverty ''at best'', whereas the connections and reputation that Hawke gains from a year running with the gang/mercenary company ensures that s/he leaves with better job offers (such as being offered an equal partnership in Varric and Bartrand's business venture) than most Kirkwall natives could dream.[[/note]] While Gamlen is wrong for having stolen and gambled his sister's inheritance away, he still makes a point that Leandra ''chose'' to leave the fortune behind years ago. Finally, the game treats Gamlen asking Leandra for rent as a very unreasonable request, yet by the time he asks she's been sitting in his house doing nothing (neither chores nor job-hunting) for ''over a year'', so it's perfectly reasonable for him to ask her to pitch in if she has no intention of moving out.
24th Jul '17 10:54:13 AM Athanasia94
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** Corypheus of ''Legacy'' proves to be much tougher than either of the others.

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** Corypheus of ''Legacy'' proves to be much tougher than either of the others. ''Legacy'' also has [[spoiler: the secret boss Malvernis, who switches between summoning dozens of archers, using high-damage blood magic, and eventually turning into a dragon.]]
4th Jul '17 6:49:36 AM yin_13147
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4th Jul '17 6:49:01 AM yin_13147
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4th Jul '17 6:48:37 AM yin_13147
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16th Jun '17 7:53:37 PM LadyNorbert
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** Grand Cleric Elthina. Was she the only thing keeping the mage/Templar conflict stable, or did her refusal to take a side make things worse? The question is also applicable to the Chantry/Qunari conflict in Act II. Either the appearance of violent zealots was an inevitable consequence of the sustained Qunari presence in the city, or the deterioration of so many members of her church is an indication that she's dangerously out-of-touch with the rest of Kirkwall.

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** Grand Cleric Elthina. Was she the only thing keeping the mage/Templar conflict stable, or did her refusal to take a side make things worse? The question is also applicable to the Chantry/Qunari conflict in Act II.2. Either the appearance of violent zealots was an inevitable consequence of the sustained Qunari presence in the city, or the deterioration of so many members of her church is an indication that she's dangerously out-of-touch with the rest of Kirkwall.



** An in-universe case: If Hawke is Anders' rival, Justice eventually gets referred to as Vengeance. If Hawke supports Anders' decisions, they keep calling him Justice.

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** An in-universe case: If Hawke is Anders' rival, rivals Anders, Justice eventually gets referred to as Vengeance. If Hawke supports Anders' decisions, they keep calling him Justice.



** Alternatively, is Hawke's continuing reticence to lead simply because every time they're forced into authority, such as during the flight from Lothering, the Deep Roads expedition and the hunt for Quentin, they end up losing those closest to them? From Hawke's point of view, if they can't even run a mine without their workers getting repeatedly attacked by monsters, how are they supposed to manage running a ''city''?

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** Alternatively, is Hawke's continuing reticence to lead simply because every time they're forced into authority, such authority (such as during the flight from Lothering, the Deep Roads expedition expedition, and the hunt for Quentin, Quentin), they end up losing those closest to them? From Hawke's point of view, if they can't even run a mine without their workers getting repeatedly attacked by monsters, how are they supposed to manage running a ''city''?



** After what we learn in Inquisition, the [[spoiler: Pride Demon in Merrill's quest]]. Was it always a [[spoiler: demon manipulating Merrill into granting it its freedom]], or was it a [[spoiler: spirit of wisdom, warped into a demon by Marethari's perceptions and refusal to admit she might be wrong]]?
* AssPull: [[spoiler:Orsino and Meredith]] turning on you, even if you side with one of them, as a result of a ConflictBall, likely due to the game being rushed.
* BaseBreakingCharacter: The companions in general (with the exception of Varric who is beloved by the fandom). To be more specific:

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** After what we learn in Inquisition, ''Inquisition'', the [[spoiler: Pride Demon in Merrill's quest]]. Was it always a [[spoiler: demon manipulating Merrill into granting it its freedom]], or was it a [[spoiler: spirit of wisdom, warped into a demon by Marethari's perceptions and refusal to admit she might be wrong]]?
* AssPull: [[spoiler:Orsino and Meredith]] turning on you, even if you side with one of them, as a result of a ConflictBall, ConflictBall - likely due to the game being rushed.
* BaseBreakingCharacter: The companions in general (with the exception of Varric Varric, who is almost universally beloved by the fandom). To be more specific:



** Grand Cleric Elthina is ''almost'' as divisive as Anders. Some fans praise her as an [[CoolOldLady incredibly intelligent, kind, goodhearted]] ReasonableAuthorityFigure who made every possible effort to diffuse the volatile situation in Kirkwall, and feel that she might have even been making progress on the Mage/Templar issue when [[spoiler: [[DroppedABridgeOnHim Anders blew her and the rest of the Chantry up]].]] Many view her as being an utterly incompetent nitwit with a serious case of HeadInTheSandManagement (both in the Qunari crisis, which resulted in countless innocents dying, and in the Mage/Templar crisis) and an unwillingness to take responsibility for her actions or faults (most specifically, the appointment of [[KnightTemplar Knight Commander]] [[ChurchMilitant Meredith]]).

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** Grand Cleric Elthina is ''almost'' as divisive as Anders. Some fans praise her as an [[CoolOldLady incredibly intelligent, kind, goodhearted]] good-hearted]] ReasonableAuthorityFigure who made every possible effort to diffuse the volatile situation in Kirkwall, and feel that she might have even been making progress on the Mage/Templar issue when [[spoiler: [[DroppedABridgeOnHim Anders blew her and the rest of the Chantry up]].]] Many view her as being an utterly incompetent nitwit with a serious case of HeadInTheSandManagement (both in the Qunari crisis, which resulted in countless innocents dying, and in the Mage/Templar crisis) and an unwillingness to take responsibility for her actions or faults (most specifically, the appointment of [[KnightTemplar Knight Commander]] [[ChurchMilitant Meredith]]).



*** When factoring in Legacy, most players tend to agree that Carver has been [[RescuedFromTheScrappyHeap rescued from his Base Breakering Character status]], citing his newfound maturity (particularly as a warden, but even as a templar he qualifies), depth, and understanding of his father and siblings. It helps that Carver is the one who attempts to bury the hatchet. On the other hand, this DLC did just about nothing to affect Bethany's popularity whatsoever.

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*** When factoring in Legacy, ''Legacy'', most players tend to agree that Carver has been [[RescuedFromTheScrappyHeap rescued from his Base Breakering Breaking Character status]], citing his newfound maturity (particularly as a warden, Warden, but even as a templar Templar he qualifies), depth, and understanding of his father and siblings. It helps that Carver is the one who attempts to bury the hatchet. On the other hand, this DLC did just about nothing to affect Bethany's popularity whatsoever.



** Fenris is either a compelling character that shows the darkest of what a minority has to face or is an asshole who has a huge stick up his butt for every single thing that has something to do with magic to the point of being the Templars viewpoint version of Anders. Mage sympathizers and Dalish fans in particular feel that he is very hypocritical for generalizing both groups for thinking that they will always put down the disadvantaged if they gain power and always attempting to talk about the past respectively in a scathing way yet he does the exact same thing (to the same group of people in the former case). His status as a love interest doesn't help, you either love his TroubledButCute storyline or think that he's too much like a stereotypical JRPG protagonist.
** Aveline is either the perfect StraightMan to almost all of the other party members and Snarky!Hawke or someone who doesn't really fit well to the overall story of the game and should have left early. Like with Bethany, this often comes down to how much a player enjoys the DysfunctionJunction and more flawed (and sometimes even unlikeable) personalities. She is also sometimes criticized for her pursuit of [[spoiler:the elves at the end of Act 2 who killed one of her guardsmen in an act of RapeAndRevenge after legal remedies failed]]; her stance against vigilante justice in this case draws accusations of hypocrisy and FantasticRacism. On the other hand, fans will counter that she's one of the very few guard captains in the series that allows elves to join the city watch by trying to convince Fenris to join and [[spoiler:and even making an elf you may have saved in the first act her lieutenant]].
** Tallis. This boils down to how much one likes FeliciaDay and her involvement in MOTA, as well as how much one likes the Qunari. Many found her character fascinating and felt that Day gave a really compelling performance. Others were annoyed that she succeeds in her goals, irrespective of whether Hawke is anti-Qunari, feel her dialogue has is filled with moments of [[CantArgueWithElves "Can't argue with Qunari!"]] (for example, a Mage!Hawke can't bring up Saarabas), and argue that MOTA feels like "Dragon Age starring FeliciaDay (with Hawke and Co. tagging along)"; thus they deemed her to be, at least, veering on MarySue status (the fact the character was conceptualized by Felicia herself, rather than the Bioware writers, ''does not'' help matters, with many fans arguing that the entire character is essentially ascended fanfic for name recognition)
*** Beyond that, there's ''another'' group of detractors who feel Tallis doesn't even make sense on a Lore level. Primarily, they point out the fact that she's a woman who fights (which seems to contradict what Sten said in Origins, though it's since been explained with the fact that Tallis is ''technically'' in the priesthood, with players debating whether this is a logical extension of Qunari culture or an AssPull RetCon) and especially the fact that Tallis seems to repeatedly disregard any aspect of the Qun she dislikes. The fact that Felicia Day herself has stated Tallis wishes to retain some level of individual freedom often has some fans complaining that she can't even be considered Qunari (as the individual's desires are rather unimportant and they are completely subservient to thecollective good of society)
** Merrill, especially as time has gone on. There's a good-sized faction of fans angry with Bioware for taking a no-nonsense, hard-nosed female authority figure in ''[=DA1=]'' and turning her into a {{Moe}} BunnyEarsLawyer {{Cloudcuckoolander}}, straight down to substantial physical changes to make her look ''far'' younger than her previous appearance. Others argue that she's a hugely important component of the story, as while other characters might provide "comic relief", nearly all the rest of it is of the bitter, ironic kind; Merrill is the only one who can provide legitimate ''levity'' thanks to her dogged innocence. They also point out that the game desperately needs a character like her to provide Hawke a different perspective on things. (Which leads the other side of the base wondering why Creator/BioWare couldn't have written a new character for the levity instead of rewriting a pre-existing hard-nosed female authority figure for the role.)

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** Fenris is either a compelling character that shows the darkest of what a minority has to face face, or is an asshole who has a huge stick up his butt for every single thing that has something to do with magic to the point of being the Templars Templars' viewpoint version of Anders. Mage sympathizers and Dalish fans in particular feel that he is very hypocritical for generalizing both groups for thinking that they will always put down the disadvantaged if they gain power and always attempting to talk about the past respectively in a scathing way yet he does the exact same thing (to the same group of people in the former case). His status as a love interest doesn't help, help; you either love his TroubledButCute storyline or think that he's too much like a stereotypical JRPG protagonist.
** Aveline is either the perfect StraightMan to almost all of the other party members and Snarky!Hawke or someone who doesn't really fit well to the overall story of the game and should have left early. Like with Bethany, this often comes down to how much a player enjoys the DysfunctionJunction and more flawed (and sometimes even unlikeable) unlikable) personalities. She is also sometimes criticized for her pursuit of [[spoiler:the elves at the end of Act 2 who killed one of her guardsmen in an act of RapeAndRevenge after legal remedies failed]]; her stance against vigilante justice in this case draws accusations of hypocrisy and FantasticRacism. On the other hand, fans will counter that she's one of the very few guard captains in the series that allows elves to join the city watch by trying to convince Fenris to join and [[spoiler:and even making an elf you may have saved in the first act her lieutenant]].
** Tallis. This boils down to how much one likes FeliciaDay Creator/FeliciaDay and her involvement in MOTA, as well as how much one likes the Qunari. Many found her character fascinating and felt that Day gave a really compelling performance. Others were annoyed that she succeeds in her goals, irrespective of whether Hawke is anti-Qunari, feel her dialogue has is filled with moments of [[CantArgueWithElves "Can't argue with Qunari!"]] (for example, a Mage!Hawke can't bring up Saarabas), and argue that MOTA feels like "Dragon Age "''Dragon Age'' starring FeliciaDay Felicia Day (with Hawke and Co. tagging along)"; thus along)." Thus they deemed her to be, at least, veering on MarySue status (the status; the fact that the character was conceptualized by Felicia herself, rather than the Bioware writers, ''does not'' help matters, with many fans arguing that the entire character is essentially ascended fanfic for name recognition)
recognition.
*** Beyond that, there's ''another'' group of detractors who feel Tallis doesn't even make sense on a Lore level. Primarily, they point out the fact that she's a woman who fights (which seems to contradict what Sten said in Origins, though it's since been explained with the fact that Tallis is ''technically'' in the priesthood, with players debating whether this is a logical extension of Qunari culture or an AssPull RetCon) and especially the fact that Tallis seems to repeatedly disregard any aspect of the Qun she dislikes. The fact that Felicia Day herself has stated Tallis wishes to retain some level of individual freedom often has some fans complaining that she can't even be considered Qunari (as the individual's desires are rather unimportant and they are completely subservient to thecollective the collective good of society)
** Merrill, especially as time has gone on. There's a good-sized faction of fans who are angry with Bioware for taking a no-nonsense, hard-nosed female authority figure in ''[=DA1=]'' ''Origins'' and turning her into a {{Moe}} BunnyEarsLawyer {{Cloudcuckoolander}}, straight down to substantial physical changes to make her look ''far'' younger than her previous appearance. Others argue that she's a hugely important component of the story, as while other characters might provide "comic relief", nearly all the rest of it is of the bitter, ironic kind; Merrill is the only one who can provide legitimate ''levity'' thanks to her dogged innocence. They also point out that the game desperately needs a character like her to provide Hawke a different perspective on things. (Which leads the other side of the base wondering why Creator/BioWare couldn't have written a new character for the levity instead of rewriting a pre-existing hard-nosed female authority figure for the role.)



** Sebastian, unlike most of the examples, has to do with both his status as a DLC party member as well as his characterizations. While Creator/BioWare has a good track record for well liked DLC party members such as [[VideoGame/DragonAgeOrigins Shale]], [[VideoGame/MassEffect2 Kasumi, Zaeed]], and [[VideoGame/MassEffect3 Javik]], many people feel that Sebastian doesn't really fit well into the overall dynamic and some feel that he shouldn't even be in the game at all, let alone worth the money to use him. Those who don't really mind the DLC party member part are also torn between whether they like him for being a nice, calm religious guy who doesn't try to convert people by preaching or is loathed for being a blatant hypocrite who is well aware of the faults of the Chantry and yet doesn't do anything about it...and ''absolutely'' tries to convert people by preaching. [[spoiler:His decision to try and raise an army against Kirkwall if you spare Anders is also hotly debated. Some see it as the 'ultimate proof' of him being a bad person since the city itself had nothing to do with Anders's actions, while others see it as a understandable move, due to him being in a lot of emotional distress after just witnessing someone he knows blowing up his mother figure and dozens of innocent brothers and sisters, while his supposed friend protects the culprit.]]

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** Sebastian, unlike most of the examples, has to do with both his status as a DLC party member as well as his characterizations. While Creator/BioWare has a good track record for well liked well-liked DLC party members such as [[VideoGame/DragonAgeOrigins Shale]], [[VideoGame/MassEffect2 Kasumi, Zaeed]], and [[VideoGame/MassEffect3 Javik]], many people feel that Sebastian doesn't really fit well into the overall dynamic and some feel that he shouldn't even be in the game at all, let alone worth the money to use him. Those who don't really mind the DLC party member part are also torn between whether they like him for being a nice, calm religious guy who doesn't try to convert people by preaching or is loathed for being a blatant hypocrite who is well aware of the faults of the Chantry and yet doesn't do anything about it...and ''absolutely'' tries to convert people by preaching. [[spoiler:His decision to try and raise an army against Kirkwall if you spare Anders is also hotly debated. Some see it as the 'ultimate proof' of him being a bad person since the city itself had nothing to do with Anders's actions, while others see it as a understandable move, due to him being in a lot of emotional distress after just witnessing someone he knows blowing up his mother figure and dozens of innocent brothers and sisters, while his supposed friend protects the culprit.]]



* ContestedSequel: While the game received positive reviews upon release, with critics praising the companions' CharacterDevelopment, new gameplay changes, and a generally tighter story which deconstructed a ''lot'' of usual Creator/BioWare Tropes many fans criticized the environments for being smaller, less detailed and [[CopyAndPasteEnvironments very repetitive]]. This criticism was largely aimed at EA by detractors, believing they rushed out the sequel in a very short development cycle.[[note]]From start to finish, ''Dragon Age II'' hit the stores in just under 18 months. ''Origins'', meanwhile, had taken over ''four years'', and ''Inquisition'' for ''three''.[[/note]] Furthermore the finale remained largely the same regardless of player choices, and thus didn't really offer much in the way of closure. Several returning characters from previous ''Dragon Age'' games, particularly Anders, also have markedly different personalities. Is it a worthy entry into the DA franchise, an okay but obviously rushed game, a disappointing, lackluster experience with a few good ideas shining through here and there, or the herald of the beginning of the end for all of [=BioWare=]? [[FlameWar There but for the grace of the Maker go you, gentle troper.]]
** Notably, quite a fans think that the game is quite solid in and off it self, but suffers from being labelled a main installment in the franchise, claiming that the game's description as a direct sequel to ''Origins'' created expectations that it never really had any chances of living up to (''especially'' when it came to the scope of the story), and it would have gotten a more favorable reception if Bioware had kept expectations at a more modest level and called the game a side story or an outright spin-off.

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* ContestedSequel: While the game received positive reviews upon release, with critics praising the companions' CharacterDevelopment, new gameplay changes, and a generally tighter story which deconstructed a ''lot'' of usual Creator/BioWare Tropes many fans criticized the environments for being smaller, less detailed and [[CopyAndPasteEnvironments very repetitive]]. This criticism was largely aimed at EA by detractors, believing they rushed out the sequel in a very short development cycle.[[note]]From start to finish, ''Dragon Age II'' hit the stores in just under 18 months. ''Origins'', meanwhile, had taken over ''four years'', and ''Inquisition'' for took ''three''.[[/note]] Furthermore the finale remained largely the same regardless of player choices, and thus didn't really offer much in the way of closure. Several returning characters from previous ''Dragon Age'' games, particularly Anders, also have markedly different personalities. Is it a worthy entry into the DA franchise, an okay but obviously rushed game, a disappointing, lackluster experience with a few good ideas shining through here and there, or the herald of the beginning of the end for all of [=BioWare=]? Bioware? [[FlameWar There but for the grace of the Maker go you, gentle troper.]]
** Notably, quite a few fans think that the game is quite solid in and off it self, of itself, but suffers from being labelled labeled a main installment in the franchise, claiming that the game's description as a direct sequel to ''Origins'' created expectations that it never really had any chances of living up to (''especially'' when it came to the scope of the story), and it would have gotten a more favorable reception if Bioware had kept expectations at a more modest level and called the game a side story or an outright spin-off.



** Enemy assassins have disproportionately large hitpoint bars and vanish off-screen during battle, reappearing only to backstab the member of your team with the lowest armor or health value for massive damage only to return to stealth immediately after. This means that, at best, the player has a seconds-long window to whittle down a large amount of health while dealing with whatever other backup they brought with them and places frail members at exceptional risk.

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** Enemy assassins have disproportionately large hitpoint HP bars and vanish off-screen during battle, reappearing only to backstab the member of your team with the lowest armor or health value for massive damage only to return to stealth immediately after. This means that, at best, the player has a seconds-long window to whittle down a large amount of health while dealing with whatever other backup they brought with them and places frail members at exceptional risk.



** More literally, poison spiders on Nightmare. Their stun poison attack lets them wipe out anyone in 1v1 combat unless you can stop that. And the biggest problem is that they always spawn at least 2, usually 3, at a time. Definitely a contender for the toughest non-boss enemy in the game, at least on nightmare.

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** More literally, poison spiders on Nightmare. Their stun poison attack lets them wipe out anyone in 1v1 [=1v1=] combat unless you can stop that. And the biggest problem is that they always spawn at least 2, usually 3, at a time. Definitely a contender for the toughest non-boss enemy in the game, at least on nightmare.



** Arguably, Leandra. The game paints Gamlen as being wrong for things like charging rent to Leandra and putting Hawke and his/her sibling into servitude... except that if it wasn't for Gamlen, Hawke wouldn't have gotten into Kirkwall, period, and he's asking Leandra, who is sitting around doing nothing, to be decent enough to help pay for food and the like. It's hard to view Gamlen as being completely in the wrong, especially when you learn that Gamlen remained TheUnFavorite even as he cared for his parents in their declining health while Leandra was living comfortably with her husband and children in Lothering.

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** Arguably, Leandra. The game paints Gamlen as being wrong for things like charging rent to Leandra and putting Hawke and his/her sibling into servitude... except that if it wasn't for Gamlen, Hawke the family wouldn't have gotten into Kirkwall, period, and he's asking Leandra, who is sitting around doing nothing, to be decent enough to help pay for food and the like. It's hard to view Gamlen as being completely in the wrong, especially when you learn that Gamlen remained TheUnFavorite TheUnfavorite even as he cared for his parents in their declining health while Leandra was living comfortably with her husband and children in Lothering.



** In addition, players who tend to like the Qun/Qunari often try to justify the Arishok's actions, despite the fact he [[spoiler: killed a whole bunch of innocent people, including the Viscount who, ironically enough, appeared to be the ''only person in all of Kirkwall'' trying to end the city's status as a WretchedHive. It's not uncommon for players to turn over Isabella purely so they don't have to kill the Arishok.]]

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** In addition, players who tend to like the Qun/Qunari often try to justify the Arishok's actions, despite the fact he [[spoiler: killed a whole bunch of innocent people, including the Viscount - who, ironically enough, appeared to be the ''only person in all of Kirkwall'' trying to end the city's status as a WretchedHive. It's not uncommon for players to turn over Isabella Isabela purely so they don't have to kill the Arishok.]]



** Minor character Lilley from the "Inside Job" sidequest (who only has a few lines of dialogue and [[spoiler:gets killed off halfway through the quest]]) has somehow endeared herself to a lot of fans, some of whom go as far as to suggest she should've been made a permanent party member. This is probably all thanks to a surprisingly powerful performance from Alix Wilton Regan, though her being a good-looking ActionGirl likely helped a lot, too.

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** Minor character Lilley from the "Inside Job" sidequest (who only has a few lines of dialogue and [[spoiler:gets killed off halfway through the quest]]) has somehow endeared herself to a lot of fans, some of whom go as far as to suggest she should've been made a permanent party member. This is probably all thanks to a surprisingly powerful performance from Alix Wilton Regan, though her being a good-looking ActionGirl likely helped helps a lot, too.



** Cullen, a returning fan favourite from ''Origins''.

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** Cullen, a returning fan favourite favorite from ''Origins''.''Origins'', has lost none of his popularity; if anything, this game likely helped him to gain some, since he's got a much larger role here.



** Plenty of fans ignore the fact that Varric isn't a romance option and pair him with their Hawke.



** One of the "Bone Pit" sidequests has Hawke convincing the miners to go back to work. One of the miners doesn't want to go back after the dragon attack. He drunkenly says "What if something else comes, like uh... ''bigger'' dragons?" [[FromBadToWorse Cue Act III...]]

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** One of the "Bone Pit" sidequests has Hawke convincing the miners to go back to work. One of the miners doesn't want to go back after the dragon attack. He drunkenly says "What if something else comes, like uh... ''bigger'' dragons?" [[FromBadToWorse Cue Act III...3...]]



** In the ''Legacy'' DLC, there's an exploit that potentially allows all twelve of the potential Hawke's Key bonuses to be put on it instead of the player having to choose a maximum of three. See [[http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/The_Hawke%27s_Key here]] for directions. The results, [[InfinityPlusOneSword especially if the player waited until late in the main game]] are [[GameBreaker just as powerful as it sounds]].

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** In the ''Legacy'' DLC, there's an exploit that potentially allows all twelve of the potential Hawke's Key bonuses to be put on it instead of the player having to choose a maximum of three. See [[http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/The_Hawke%27s_Key here]] for directions. The results, result, [[InfinityPlusOneSword especially if the player waited until late in the main game]] are game]], is [[GameBreaker just as powerful as it sounds]].



** [[spoiler:Anders' destruction of the Chantry]] feels worse following the 2011 Norway attacks, whose perpetrator [[spoiler:is also named Anders, and called himself a Templar to boot. They look quite similar as well.]]

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** [[spoiler:Anders' [[spoiler:Anders's destruction of the Chantry]] feels worse following the 2011 Norway attacks, whose perpetrator [[spoiler:is also named Anders, and called himself a Templar to boot. They look quite similar as well.]]



** Following the season 6 ''Series/GameOfThrones'' finale, fans of both franchises (of which there are many, due to the influence of ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' on ''Franchise/DragonAge''), immediately picked up on the similarities between [[spoiler:Anders' bombing of the Chantry and Cersei's bombing of the Great Sept]]. Since both of the characters are blond-haired, the phrase "way to go Blondie" became [[http://quesoconmermelada.tumblr.com/post/146538566291/someone-had-to quite the relevant statement]] for the events of the show.
** A dialogue between Varric and Aveline in Act 1 about petitioning the Viscount to let him "steal" ownership of the Hanged Man is a lot funnier now that [[spoiler: Varric IS the Viscount of Kirkwall.]]

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** Following the season 6 ''Series/GameOfThrones'' finale, fans of both franchises (of which there are many, due to the influence of ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' on ''Franchise/DragonAge''), immediately picked up on the similarities between [[spoiler:Anders' [[spoiler:the bombing of the Chantry in this game and Cersei's bombing of the Great Sept]]. Since both of the characters are blond-haired, the phrase "way to go Blondie" became [[http://quesoconmermelada.tumblr.com/post/146538566291/someone-had-to quite the relevant statement]] for the events of the show.
** A dialogue between Varric and Aveline in Act 1 about petitioning the Viscount to let him "steal" ownership of the Hanged Man is a lot funnier now since the release of the ''Inquisition'' DLC ''Trespasser'', which reveals that now, [[spoiler: Varric IS ''is'' the Viscount of Kirkwall.]]



** Bethany becomes this over the course of the story, but how far the game takes it depends on her fate. It's far less noticeable if she's forced to join the Circle, for example, but even then she's cold and sharp towards Hawke in later Acts. Warden Bethany, however is even more bitter and cold towards not just Hawke, but almost all the former party members. This is more noticeable during the DLC, in which she provides some scathing remarks, which she then retracts in frustration. It's a cruel counterpoint to Act I's sweet, kind, gentle Bethany.

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** Bethany becomes this over the course of the story, but how far the game takes it depends on her fate. It's far less noticeable if she's forced to join the Circle, for example, but even then she's a little cold and sharp towards Hawke in later Acts. Warden Bethany, however is even more bitter and cold towards not just Hawke, but almost all the former party members. This is more noticeable during the DLC, in which she provides some scathing remarks, which she remarks and then retracts them in frustration. It's a cruel counterpoint to Act I's 1's sweet, kind, gentle Bethany.



* {{Narm}}: [[WhamEpisode Yes, it is shocking]] when [[spoiler: Anders nukes the Chantry at the end of Act III]]. It is, however, ''impossible'' to take the situation seriously after Sebastian's BigNo.

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* {{Narm}}: [[WhamEpisode Yes, it is shocking]] when [[spoiler: Anders nukes the Chantry at the end of Act III]].3]]. It is, however, ''impossible'' to take the situation seriously after Sebastian's BigNo.



* PlayerPunch: A plenty.

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* PlayerPunch: A plenty.Plenty.



** As mentioned in DesignatedHero above, the game paints Gamlen as being completely in the wrong for ''everything'', yet he does make some valid points. Leandra and Bethany/Carver act like he's selling Hawke and Sibling into slavery when he suggests a year of indentured servitude in exchange for passage into into the city, yet he's not wrong when he says the family fortune ''is'' gone (however it went), this ''is'' their only option, and also that the large influx of unskilled immigrant labor into the city would make jobs very limited, so "think of it as having a job waiting for you once you get in." Sure enough...[[note]]a year later most Blight refugees are toiling away in dead-end poverty ''at best'', whereas the connections and reputation that Hawke gains from a year running with the gang/mercenary company ensures that s/he leaves with better job offers (such as being offered an equal partnership in Varric's and Bartrand's business venture) than most Kirkwall natives could dream.[[/note]] While Gamlen is wrong for having stolen and gambled his sister's inheritance away, he still makes a point that Leandra ''chose'' to leave the fortune behind years ago. Finally, the game treats Gamlen asking Leandra for rent as a very unreasonable request, yet by the time he asks she's been sitting in his house doing nothing (neither chores nor job-hunting) for ''over a year'', so it's perfectly reasonable for him to ask her to pitch in if she has no intention of moving out.

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** As mentioned in DesignatedHero above, the game paints Gamlen as being completely in the wrong for ''everything'', yet he does make some valid points. Leandra and Bethany/Carver act like he's selling Hawke and Sibling into slavery when he suggests a year of indentured servitude in exchange for passage into into the city, yet he's not wrong when he says the family fortune ''is'' gone (however it went), this ''is'' their only option, and also that the large influx of unskilled immigrant labor into the city would make jobs very limited, so "think of it as having a job waiting for you once you get in." Sure enough...[[note]]a year later most Blight refugees are toiling away in dead-end poverty ''at best'', whereas the connections and reputation that Hawke gains from a year running with the gang/mercenary company ensures that s/he leaves with better job offers (such as being offered an equal partnership in Varric's Varric and Bartrand's business venture) than most Kirkwall natives could dream.[[/note]] While Gamlen is wrong for having stolen and gambled his sister's inheritance away, he still makes a point that Leandra ''chose'' to leave the fortune behind years ago. Finally, the game treats Gamlen asking Leandra for rent as a very unreasonable request, yet by the time he asks she's been sitting in his house doing nothing (neither chores nor job-hunting) for ''over a year'', so it's perfectly reasonable for him to ask her to pitch in if she has no intention of moving out.



** The DA:O rogue was something of a SkillGate character, but complaints from players who couldn't get the hang of them were numerous enough to remake them into another flavor of fighter. It didn't help that the [[ArtificialStupidity AI didn't provide a good example of how to use them]]. As a YMMV, the changes could be as much an improvement, as the rogue can now be played as another flavor of fighter, and lockpicking/traps cost no additional skill investment.

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** The DA:O ''Origins'' rogue was something of a SkillGate character, but complaints from players who couldn't get the hang of them were numerous enough to remake them into another flavor of fighter. It didn't help that the [[ArtificialStupidity AI didn't provide a good example of how to use them]]. As a YMMV, the changes could be as much an improvement, as the rogue can now be played as another flavor of fighter, and lockpicking/traps cost no additional skill investment.



** As a subset of this, Grand Cleric Elthina is clearly supposed to come across across as a ReasonableAuthorityFigure desperately trying to keep things together and failing despite valiant efforts, but her constant talk about compromise while both sides pile up the atrocities, without her ever really specifying exactly what "compromise" would entail, makes her behavior come off as HeadInTheSandManagement that borders on being StupidNeutral at worst.
** The quest "All That Remains" is supposed to make the Templar point of view seem more sympathetic, since it features a blood mage serial killer [[spoiler:who brutally murders Hawke's mother]]. But at the same time it portrays the Templars as utterly incompetent -- only one of them is investigating the murders, and his concerns are dismissed by Meredith, who later has the gall to [[NeverMyFault brandish it as a trump card]] when Hawke speaks out against her.
** After Meredith invokes the [[KillEmAll Right of Annulment]] the player is clearly meant to see this as a horrible thing, as the Templars immidiately start slaughtering the Mages who had no hand in the Chantry's destruction.....only that in the next moment the town gets absolutely ''swarmed'' by demons and abominations. There is even a scene where 3 templars are ganging up on one mage who insists she is innocent, only to turn into an Abomination the very next second. Instead of portraying the Mages as victims, this has much more of the opposite effect.

to:

** As a subset of this, Grand Cleric Elthina is clearly supposed to come across across as a ReasonableAuthorityFigure desperately trying to keep things together and failing despite valiant efforts, efforts; but her constant talk about compromise while both sides pile up the atrocities, without her ever really specifying exactly what "compromise" would entail, makes her behavior come off as HeadInTheSandManagement that borders on being StupidNeutral at worst.
** The quest "All That Remains" is supposed to make the Templar point of view seem more sympathetic, since it features a blood mage serial killer [[spoiler:who brutally murders Hawke's mother]]. But at the same time time, it portrays the Templars as utterly incompetent -- only one of them is investigating the murders, and his concerns are dismissed by Meredith, who later has the gall to [[NeverMyFault brandish it as a trump card]] when Hawke speaks out against her.
** After Meredith invokes the [[KillEmAll Right of Annulment]] Annulment]], the player is clearly meant to see this as a horrible thing, as the Templars immidiately immediately start slaughtering the Mages who had no hand in the Chantry's destruction.....only that destruction... but in the next moment the town gets absolutely ''swarmed'' by demons and abominations. There is even a scene where 3 templars three Templars are ganging up on one mage who insists she is innocent, only to turn into an Abomination the very next second. Instead of portraying the Mages as victims, this has much more of the opposite effect.



** Almost all of Anders' conversations and banters, as well as all of his quests, revolve around the plight of mages. Though it comes from an understandable place, the degree of championing changes as the series goes on--he browbeats everyone in the beginning, and gets progressively angrier and more introverted as it continues.

to:

** Almost all of Anders' conversations every conversation and banters, banter involving Anders, as well as all of his quests, revolve around the plight of mages. Though it comes from an understandable place, the degree of championing changes as the series goes on--he on; he browbeats everyone in the beginning, and gets progressively angrier and more introverted as it continues.



** [[spoiler: Orsino.]] Besides his [[spoiler: association with Quentin, who killed Hawke's mother]], his reaction [[DespairEventHorizon to the deaths of so many mages at the hands of the templars]], which would have garnered public sympathy for the mages, was to prove Meredith right by [[spoiler: turning himself into a Harvester and attacking Hawke and company]].

to:

** [[spoiler: Orsino.]] Besides his [[spoiler: association with Quentin, who killed Hawke's mother]], his reaction [[DespairEventHorizon to the deaths of so many mages at the hands of the templars]], Templars]], which would have garnered public sympathy for the mages, was to prove Meredith right by [[spoiler: turning himself into a Harvester and attacking Hawke and company]].



** Anders. Went from snarky comic relief to a paranoid and angsty nutcase. Life has not been good to him. His rudeness to various people, particularly Merrill, gradually edges him towards JerkassWoobie before [[spoiler: diving straight into WoobieDestroyerOfWorlds with his little [[EarthShatteringKaboom stunt]] at the Chantry]].

to:

** Anders. Went He went from snarky comic relief to a paranoid and angsty nutcase. Life has not been good to him. His rudeness to various people, particularly Merrill, gradually edges him towards JerkassWoobie before [[spoiler: diving straight into WoobieDestroyerOfWorlds with his little [[EarthShatteringKaboom stunt]] at the Chantry]].



** The orphans under Evelina's care. First, they have to flee to Kirkwall's slums to eke out a living after their parents are killed in the Blight. Then they have to watch their surrogate mother be taken away by the Templars when she tries to appeal to the Circle for help. When she returns years later, she's become an insane abomination. Finally, they have to watch helplessly as Hawke and company slay her, leaving them alone to an uncertain future.
** Might as well add the remaining party members into the Woobie category - Aveline's main source of Woobieness is that her husband dies in the prologue (with either her or Hawke dealing the killing blow), but she's also clearly scarred from the events in Ostagar, and in Act III has to deal with [[spoiler: Jeven trying to spread insubordination among her guardsmen]]. Then there's Sebastian, whose backstory is that his whole family was killed off by assassins ([[spoiler: sent by his family's friends, no less]]), and in the game's finale [[spoiler: his mother figure, Elthina, is blown up by Anders]]. Isabela's backstory reveals [[spoiler: that she was sold by her mother in exchange for a goat, and lived as her husband's property until Zevran killed him. Since then she's lived a pretty rough life as a pirate, and even notes when Merrill is feeling jealous of the 'excitement' that she shouldn't want Isabela's life, because she's a 'good person and deserves better'. If Izzy returns during the fight with the Qunari in Act II, Hawke can also hand her over to the Arishok so that she can be taken back with them for punishment]]. Lastly there's Varric, who's had to put up with Bartrand's {{Jerkass}}ery for a ''long'' time, is [[spoiler: betrayed by him in the Deep Roads, and then either has to kill Bartrand or spend the rest of his days looking after him now that his brother's completely insane]].

to:

** The orphans under Evelina's care. First, they have to flee to Kirkwall's slums to eke out a living after their parents are killed in the Blight. Then they have to watch their surrogate mother be taken away by the Templars when she tries to appeal to the Circle for help. When she returns years later, she's become an insane abomination. Finally, they have to watch helplessly as Hawke and company slay her, leaving them alone to an uncertain future.
future. And the only thing the player can do to help them at all is have Hawke give the older one a few coins.
** Might as well add the remaining party members into the Woobie category - Aveline's main source of Woobieness is that her husband dies in the prologue (with either her or Hawke dealing the killing blow), but she's also clearly scarred from the events in Ostagar, and in Act III 3 has to deal with [[spoiler: Jeven trying to spread insubordination among her guardsmen]]. Then there's Sebastian, whose backstory is that his whole family was killed off by assassins ([[spoiler: sent by his family's friends, no less]]), and in the game's finale [[spoiler: his mother figure, Elthina, is blown up by Anders]]. Isabela's backstory reveals [[spoiler: that she was sold by her mother in exchange for a goat, and lived as her husband's property until Zevran killed him. Since then she's lived a pretty rough life as a pirate, and even notes when Merrill is feeling jealous of the 'excitement' that she shouldn't want Isabela's life, because she's a 'good person and deserves better'. If Izzy returns during the fight with the Qunari in Act II, 2, Hawke can also hand her over to the Arishok so that she can be taken back with them for punishment]]. Lastly there's Varric, who's had to put up with Bartrand's {{Jerkass}}ery for a ''long'' time, is [[spoiler: betrayed by him in the Deep Roads, and then either has to kill Bartrand or spend the rest of his days looking after him now that his brother's completely insane]].



* WoobieFamily: The Hawkes. Malcolm Hawke spent his life on the run as an apostate mage, his wife Leandra was disowned by her noble family for eloping with him, then he died shortly before the Fifth Blight destroyed everything he left to her and their three children. One of said children was then killed by the Darkspawn in front of their mother and siblings, another ([[StoryBranching potentially]]) died from [[ThePlague the Taint]], their mother [[spoiler:was turned into a zombie by a deranged mage and had to be put down by her eldest child]], and the eldest child became the world's premier CosmicPlaything, when their attempts to take care of their dysfunctional friends and family brought about several cataclysmic events that shook Thedas to the core.

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* WoobieFamily: The Hawkes. Malcolm Hawke spent his life on the run as an apostate mage, his wife Leandra was disowned by her noble family for eloping with him, then he died shortly before the Fifth Blight destroyed everything he left to her and their three children. One of said children was then killed by the Darkspawn darkspawn in front of their mother and siblings, another ([[StoryBranching potentially]]) died from [[ThePlague the Taint]], their mother [[spoiler:was turned into a zombie by a deranged mage and had to be put down by her eldest child]], and the eldest child became the world's premier CosmicPlaything, when their attempts to take care of their dysfunctional friends and family brought bring about several cataclysmic events that shook shake Thedas to the core.
30th May '17 2:28:33 PM FaceofEvil
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Added DiffLines:

** A dialogue between Varric and Aveline in Act 1 about petitioning the Viscount to let him "steal" ownership of the Hanged Man is a lot funnier now that [[spoiler: Varric IS the Viscount of Kirkwall.]]
19th Apr '17 11:46:33 AM Zaptech
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* TierInducedScrappy: Honestly, the choice to keep either [[spoiler:Anders or Sebastian]] during the final battle is hardly a tough choice from a gameplay perspective. The former is your team's group healer mage while the latter is a rogue for simply more damage-dealing. Almost anyone would prefer to take the healer, especially if he's the only one on the team.
18th Apr '17 1:48:27 PM Forenperser
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Added DiffLines:

** After Meredith invokes the [[KillEmAll Right of Annulment]] the player is clearly meant to see this as a horrible thing, as the Templars immidiately start slaughtering the Mages who had no hand in the Chantry's destruction.....only that in the next moment the town gets absolutely ''swarmed'' by demons and abominations. There is even a scene where 3 templars are ganging up on one mage who insists she is innocent, only to turn into an Abomination the very next second. Instead of portraying the Mages as victims, this has much more of the opposite effect.
29th Mar '17 5:35:47 PM Teakay
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Added DiffLines:

** The quest "All That Remains" is supposed to make the Templar point of view seem more sympathetic, since it features a blood mage serial killer [[spoiler:who brutally murders Hawke's mother]]. But at the same time it portrays the Templars as utterly incompetent -- only one of them is investigating the murders, and his concerns are dismissed by Meredith, who later has the gall to [[NeverMyFault brandish it as a trump card]] when Hawke speaks out against her.
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