History YMMV / DragonAgeII

31st Jan '17 5:15:11 PM Skooter910
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* AlternateAesopInterpretation: Occurs in-universe at the end of Merrill's personal quest. Hawke can either tell her [[EvilIsNotAToy she was stupid]] for thinkariing she could ever use blood magic safely, or that [[AllOfTheOtherReindeer everyone else was stupid]] for interfering with her life - [[spoiler: especially Marethari.]]

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* AlternateAesopInterpretation: Occurs in-universe at the end of Merrill's personal quest. Hawke can either tell her [[EvilIsNotAToy she was stupid]] for thinkariing thinking she could ever use blood magic safely, or that [[AllOfTheOtherReindeer everyone else was stupid]] for interfering with her life - [[spoiler: especially Marethari.]]
25th Jan '17 4:02:40 PM Teakay
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** Fenris is either a compelling character that shows the darkest of what a minority has to face or is an asshole who has a huge stick up his butt for every single thing that has something to do with magic to the point of being the Templars viewpoint version of Anders. Mage sympathizer and Dalish fans in particular feel that he is very hypocritical for generalizing both groups for thinking that they will always put down the disadvantage if they gain power and always attepting to talk about the past respectively in a scathing way yet he does the exact same thing (to the same group of people in the former case).

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*** More people disliked the later revelation in ''ComicBook/ThoseWhoSpeak'' that [[spoiler:she threw slaves overboard to drown in order to save herself]], considering it a MoralEventHorizon that casts UnfortunateImplications on her potential relationship with Fenris. Others argue that plenty of other party members have done horrible things and that the particular dislike of Isabela is based on her being "competition" for Fenris.
** Fenris is either a compelling character that shows the darkest of what a minority has to face or is an asshole who has a huge stick up his butt for every single thing that has something to do with magic to the point of being the Templars viewpoint version of Anders. Mage sympathizer sympathizers and Dalish fans in particular feel that he is very hypocritical for generalizing both groups for thinking that they will always put down the disadvantage disadvantaged if they gain power and always attepting attempting to talk about the past respectively in a scathing way yet he does the exact same thing (to the same group of people in the former case).
20th Jan '17 12:45:58 PM LadyNorbert
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* AlternateAesopInterpretation: Occurs in-universe at the end of Merrill's personal quest. Hawke can either tell her [[EvilIsNotAToy she was stupid]] for thinking she could ever use blood magic safely, or that [[AllOfTheOtherReindeer everyone else was stupid]] for interfering with her life - [[spoiler: especially Marethari.]]

to:

* AlternateAesopInterpretation: Occurs in-universe at the end of Merrill's personal quest. Hawke can either tell her [[EvilIsNotAToy she was stupid]] for thinking thinkariing she could ever use blood magic safely, or that [[AllOfTheOtherReindeer everyone else was stupid]] for interfering with her life - [[spoiler: especially Marethari.]]



** In addition, players who tend to like the Qun/Qunari often try to justify the Arishock's actions, despite the fact he [[spoiler: killed a whole bunch of innocent people, including the Viscount who, ironically enough, appeared to be the ''only person in all of Kirkwall'' trying to end the city's status as a WretchedHive. It's not uncommon for players to turn over Isabella purely so they don't have to kill the Arishock.]]

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** In addition, players who tend to like the Qun/Qunari often try to justify the Arishock's Arishok's actions, despite the fact he [[spoiler: killed a whole bunch of innocent people, including the Viscount who, ironically enough, appeared to be the ''only person in all of Kirkwall'' trying to end the city's status as a WretchedHive. It's not uncommon for players to turn over Isabella purely so they don't have to kill the Arishock.Arishok.]]



* {{Narm}}: [[WhamEpisode Yes, it is shocking]] when [[spoiler: Anders nukes the Chantry at the end of Act III]]. It is however ''impossible'' to take the situation seriously after Sebastian's BigNo.

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* {{Narm}}: [[WhamEpisode Yes, it is shocking]] when [[spoiler: Anders nukes the Chantry at the end of Act III]]. It is however is, however, ''impossible'' to take the situation seriously after Sebastian's BigNo.
14th Jan '17 9:13:39 PM RomanBowler
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** Fenris is either a compelling character that shows the darkest of what a minority has to face or is an asshole who has a huge stick up his butt for every single thing that has something to do with magic to the point of being the Templars viewpoint version of Anders. Not as severe as Anders though because at least he's willing to accept Bethany and a Mage Hawke and is more self aware about it.
** Aveline is either the perfect StraightMan to almost all of the other party members and Snarky!Hawke or someone who doesn't really fit well to the overall story of the game and should have left early. Like with Bethany, this often comes down to how much a player enjoys the DysfunctionJunction and more flawed (and sometimes even unlikeable) personalities. She is also sometimes criticized for her pursuit of [[spoiler:the elves at the end of Act 2 who killed one of her guardsmen in an act of RapeAndRevenge after legal remedies failed]]; her stance against vigilante justice in this case draws accusations of hypocrisy and FantasticRacism. On the other hand, fans will counter that she's one of the very few guard captains in the series that allows elves to join the city watch by convincing Fenris to join and [[spoiler:and even making an elf you may have saved in the first act her lieutenant]].

to:

** Fenris is either a compelling character that shows the darkest of what a minority has to face or is an asshole who has a huge stick up his butt for every single thing that has something to do with magic to the point of being the Templars viewpoint version of Anders. Not as severe as Anders though because at least he's willing to accept Bethany and a Mage Hawke sympathizer and Dalish fans in particular feel that he is more self aware very hypocritical for generalizing both groups for thinking that they will always put down the disadvantage if they gain power and always attepting to talk about it.
the past respectively in a scathing way yet he does the exact same thing (to the same group of people in the former case).
** Aveline is either the perfect StraightMan to almost all of the other party members and Snarky!Hawke or someone who doesn't really fit well to the overall story of the game and should have left early. Like with Bethany, this often comes down to how much a player enjoys the DysfunctionJunction and more flawed (and sometimes even unlikeable) personalities. She is also sometimes criticized for her pursuit of [[spoiler:the elves at the end of Act 2 who killed one of her guardsmen in an act of RapeAndRevenge after legal remedies failed]]; her stance against vigilante justice in this case draws accusations of hypocrisy and FantasticRacism. On the other hand, fans will counter that she's one of the very few guard captains in the series that allows elves to join the city watch by convincing trying to convince Fenris to join and [[spoiler:and even making an elf you may have saved in the first act her lieutenant]].
13th Jan '17 5:49:47 AM RomanBowler
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** Aveline is either the perfect StraightMan to almost all of the other party members and Snarky!Hawke or someone who doesn't really fit well to the overall story of the game and should have left early. Like with Bethany, this often comes down to how much a player enjoys the DysfunctionJunction and more flawed (and sometimes even unlikeable) personalities. She is also sometimes criticized for her pursuit of [[spoiler:the elves at the end of Act 2 who killed one of her guardsmen in an act of RapeAndRevenge after legal remedies failed]]; her stance against vigilante justice in this case draws accusations of hypocrisy and FantasticRacism.

to:

** Aveline is either the perfect StraightMan to almost all of the other party members and Snarky!Hawke or someone who doesn't really fit well to the overall story of the game and should have left early. Like with Bethany, this often comes down to how much a player enjoys the DysfunctionJunction and more flawed (and sometimes even unlikeable) personalities. She is also sometimes criticized for her pursuit of [[spoiler:the elves at the end of Act 2 who killed one of her guardsmen in an act of RapeAndRevenge after legal remedies failed]]; her stance against vigilante justice in this case draws accusations of hypocrisy and FantasticRacism. On the other hand, fans will counter that she's one of the very few guard captains in the series that allows elves to join the city watch by convincing Fenris to join and [[spoiler:and even making an elf you may have saved in the first act her lieutenant]].
5th Jan '17 5:06:37 PM Teakay
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** Aveline is either the perfect StraightMan to almost all of the other party members and Snarky!Hawke or someone who doesn't really fit well to the overall story of the game and should have left early. Like with Bethany, this often comes down to how much a player enjoys the DysfunctionJunction and more flawed (and sometimes even unlikeable) personalities.

to:

** Aveline is either the perfect StraightMan to almost all of the other party members and Snarky!Hawke or someone who doesn't really fit well to the overall story of the game and should have left early. Like with Bethany, this often comes down to how much a player enjoys the DysfunctionJunction and more flawed (and sometimes even unlikeable) personalities. She is also sometimes criticized for her pursuit of [[spoiler:the elves at the end of Act 2 who killed one of her guardsmen in an act of RapeAndRevenge after legal remedies failed]]; her stance against vigilante justice in this case draws accusations of hypocrisy and FantasticRacism.
31st Dec '16 6:38:24 PM Repo
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** In addition, players who tend to like the Qun/Qunari often try to justify the Arishock's actions, despite the fact he [[spoler: killed a whole bunch of innocent people, including the Viscount who, ironically enough, appeared to be the ''only person in all of Kirkwall'' trying to end the city's status as a WretchedHive. It's not uncommon for players to turn over Isabella purely so they don't have to kill the Arishock.]]

to:

** In addition, players who tend to like the Qun/Qunari often try to justify the Arishock's actions, despite the fact he [[spoler: [[spoiler: killed a whole bunch of innocent people, including the Viscount who, ironically enough, appeared to be the ''only person in all of Kirkwall'' trying to end the city's status as a WretchedHive. It's not uncommon for players to turn over Isabella purely so they don't have to kill the Arishock.]]
31st Dec '16 6:38:03 PM Repo
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** Grand Cleric Elthina is ''almost'' as divisive as Anders. Some fans praise her as an [[CoolOldLady incredibly intelligent, kind, goodhearted]] ReasonableAuthorityFigure who made every possible effort to diffuse the volatile situation in Kirkwall, and feel that she might have even been making progress on the Mage/Templar issue when [[spoiler: [[DroppedABridgeOnHim Anders blew her and the rest of the Chantry up]].]] Many view her as being an utterly incompetent nitwit with a serious case of HeadIntheSandManagement (both in the Qunari crisis, which resulted in countless innocents dying, and in the Mage/Templar crisis) and an unwillingness to take responsibility for her actions or faults (most specifically, the appointment of [[KnightTemplar Knight Commander]] [[ChurchMilitant Meredith]]). There's even a relatively small-but-growing segment of fans who belive that Elthina is a MagnificentBitch who is ObfuscatingStupidity when, in reality, Kirkwall is exactly how she wants it to be (Chantry, and by extension, herself on top and in control), often pointing to a number of suspect moments to defend this viewpoint (specifically, the fact that the previous Viscount was assassinated in her custody, [[spoiler: Mother Petrice's assassination, as well as the fact she ''promoted'' Petrice in the first place]], and the fact that Elthina outright tells Hawke to lie to the Divine and say there are no problems in Kirkwall, which is obviously not true)



** Aveline is either the perfect StraightMan to almost all of the other party members and Snarky!Hawke or someone who doesn't really fit well to the overall story of the game and should have left early.
** Tallis. This boils down to how much one likes FeliciaDay and her involvement in MOTA, as well as how much one likes the Qunari. Many found her character fascinating and felt that Day gave a really compelling performance. Others were annoyed that she succeeds in her goals, irrespective of whether Hawke is anti-Qunari, feel her dialogue has a motable tinge of [[CantArgueWithElves "Can't argue with Qunari!"]] to it (for example, a Mage!Hawke can't bring up Saarabas), and argue that MOTA feels like "Dragon Age starring FeliciaDay (with Hawke and Co. tagging along)"; thus they deemed her to be veering on Canon Sue status.

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** Aveline is either the perfect StraightMan to almost all of the other party members and Snarky!Hawke or someone who doesn't really fit well to the overall story of the game and should have left early.
early. Like with Bethany, this often comes down to how much a player enjoys the DysfunctionJunction and more flawed (and sometimes even unlikeable) personalities.
** Tallis. This boils down to how much one likes FeliciaDay and her involvement in MOTA, as well as how much one likes the Qunari. Many found her character fascinating and felt that Day gave a really compelling performance. Others were annoyed that she succeeds in her goals, irrespective of whether Hawke is anti-Qunari, feel her dialogue has a motable tinge is filled with moments of [[CantArgueWithElves "Can't argue with Qunari!"]] to it (for example, a Mage!Hawke can't bring up Saarabas), and argue that MOTA feels like "Dragon Age starring FeliciaDay (with Hawke and Co. tagging along)"; thus they deemed her to be be, at least, veering on Canon Sue status.MarySue status (the fact the character was conceptualized by Felicia herself, rather than the Bioware writers, ''does not'' help matters, with many fans arguing that the entire character is essentially ascended fanfic for name recognition)
*** Beyond that, there's ''another'' group of detractors who feel Tallis doesn't even make sense on a Lore level. Primarily, they point out the fact that she's a woman who fights (which seems to contradict what Sten said in Origins, though it's since been explained with the fact that Tallis is ''technically'' in the priesthood, with players debating whether this is a logical extension of Qunari culture or an AssPull RetCon) and especially the fact that Tallis seems to repeatedly disregard any aspect of the Qun she dislikes. The fact that Felicia Day herself has stated Tallis wishes to retain some level of individual freedom often has some fans complaining that she can't even be considered Qunari (as the individual's desires are rather unimportant and they are completely subservient to thecollective good of society)



* DracoInLeatherPants: Depending on one's opinions of the Mage/Templar situation, the characters on one side will often tend to have their flaws ignored or justified while the other side is [[RonTheDeathEater utterly demonized]].
** In addition, players who tend to like the Qun/Qunari often try to justify the Arishock's actions, despite the fact he [[spoler: killed a whole bunch of innocent people, including the Viscount who, ironically enough, appeared to be the ''only person in all of Kirkwall'' trying to end the city's status as a WretchedHive. It's not uncommon for players to turn over Isabella purely so they don't have to kill the Arishock.]]



* RonTheDeathEater: People tend to demonize Grand Cleric Elthina for not doing enough to defuse the situation between Orsino and Meredith.



** As a subset of this, Grand Cleric Elthina is clearly ''supposed'' to come across across as a ReasonableAuthorityFigure desperately trying to keep things together and failing despite valiant efforts, but her constant talk about compromise while both sides pile up the atrocities, without her ever really specifying exactly what "compromise" would entail, makes her behavior come off as HeadInTheSandManagement that borders on being StupidNeutral at worst.

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** As a subset of this, Grand Cleric Elthina is clearly ''supposed'' ''potentially'' meant to come across across as a ReasonableAuthorityFigure desperately trying to keep things together and failing despite valiant efforts, but her constant talk about compromise while both sides pile up the atrocities, without her ever really specifying exactly what "compromise" would entail, makes her behavior come off as HeadInTheSandManagement that borders on being StupidNeutral at worst.
11th Dec '16 9:43:56 AM RomanBowler
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** Sebastian, unlike most of the examples, has to do with both his status as a DLC party member as well as his characterizations. While Creator/BioWare has a good track record for well liked DLC party members such as [[VideoGame/DragonAgeOrigins Shale]], [[VideoGame/MassEffect2 Kasumi, Zaeed]], and [[VideoGame/MassEffect3 Javik]], many people feel that Sebastian doesn't really fit well into the overall dynamic and some feel that he shouldn't even be in the game at all, let alone worth the money to use him. Those who don't really mind the DLC party member part are also torn between whether they like him for being a nice, calm religious guy who doesn't try to convert people by preaching or is loathed for being a blatant hypocrite who is well aware of the faults of the Chantry and yet doesn't do anything about it...and ''absolutely'' tries to convert people by preaching. [[spoiler:His decision to try and raise an army against Kirkwall if you spare Anders is also hotly debated. Some see it as the 'ultimate proof' of him being a bad person, while others see it as a understandable move, due to him being in a lot of emotional distress after just witnessing someone he knows blowing up his mother figure and dozens of innocent brothers and sisters, while his supposed friend protects the culprit.]]

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** Sebastian, unlike most of the examples, has to do with both his status as a DLC party member as well as his characterizations. While Creator/BioWare has a good track record for well liked DLC party members such as [[VideoGame/DragonAgeOrigins Shale]], [[VideoGame/MassEffect2 Kasumi, Zaeed]], and [[VideoGame/MassEffect3 Javik]], many people feel that Sebastian doesn't really fit well into the overall dynamic and some feel that he shouldn't even be in the game at all, let alone worth the money to use him. Those who don't really mind the DLC party member part are also torn between whether they like him for being a nice, calm religious guy who doesn't try to convert people by preaching or is loathed for being a blatant hypocrite who is well aware of the faults of the Chantry and yet doesn't do anything about it...and ''absolutely'' tries to convert people by preaching. [[spoiler:His decision to try and raise an army against Kirkwall if you spare Anders is also hotly debated. Some see it as the 'ultimate proof' of him being a bad person, person since the city itself had nothing to do with Anders's actions, while others see it as a understandable move, due to him being in a lot of emotional distress after just witnessing someone he knows blowing up his mother figure and dozens of innocent brothers and sisters, while his supposed friend protects the culprit.]]
10th Dec '16 12:26:15 PM TheAmazingBlachman
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* MightyWhitey[=/=]WhiteMansBurden: Especially as time goes on, more and more fans are raising eyebrows at the implications that Hawke, a human (Western European FantasyCounterpartCulture) is treated both in-universe and out as having more authority over whether the Eluvian should or shouldn't, can or cannot be repaired by Merrill, an actual elf (whose Dalish culture has rather tribal undertones) and [[BadassBookworm highly educated Keeper's First]] who's done extensive research into a relic of her own people's history. [[note]]While Keeper Marethari tries to discourage Merrill's mission too, there is a sizable AlternativeCharacterInterpretation that she tries to stop Merrill out of pride that Merrill might be right rather than legitimate knowledge on the subject. It doesn't help that Merrill reveals that she's done her research on the Eluvian, while Marethari refused to even look at her research before saying, "No."[[/note]] This is not helped by the fact that Morrigan, a human mage, successfully repairs an Eluvian in the previous Witch Hunt DLC and is treated as an Eluvian / Elvhen expert in DAI, with ''no'' characters questioning her abilities as they constantly question Merrill, leads to even more potential implications about Western-European counterpart human characters knowing what's best for elves and how to work elven technology better than the elves themselves. Merrill will also [[WhatTheHellHero call Hawke out]] if (s)he declines to give her the Arulin'Holm, pointing out that (s)he is effectively stealing an important historical Elven artifact. Similarly, Solas can chew out Morrigan in DAI for her somewhat entitled attitude towards Elven culture simply for knowing all the myths.
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