History YMMV / DragonAgeII

18th Jun '16 4:29:50 PM RomanBowler
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** Sebastian, unlike most of the examples, has to do with both his status as a DLC party member as well as his characterizations. While BioWare has a good track record for well liked DLC party members such as [[VideoGame/DragonAgeOrigins Shale]], [[VideoGame/MassEffect2 Kasumi, Zaeed]], and [[VideoGame/MassEffect3 Javik]], many people feel that Sebastian doesn't really fit well into the overall dynamic and some feel that he shouldn't even be in the game at all, let alone worth the money to use him. Those who don't really mind the DLC party member part are also torn between whether they like him for being a nice religious guy who doesn't try to convert people by preaching or a blant hypocrite who is well aware of the faults of the Chantry and yet doesn't do anything about it. [[spoiler:His decision to try and raise an army against Kirkwall if you spare Anders is also hotly debated.]]
16th Jun '16 11:56:05 AM Angeldeb82
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** Marethari - was she trying to [[spoiler: save Merrill from a fatal mistake,]] or was she [[spoiler: denying Merrill her agency ''and'' endangering her clan by keeping them in one place for years?]] For that matter, [[spoiler: there's an argument that Audacity was always at least as interested in her as Merrill - they both heard its call the first time.]] While Marethari never shows intolerance towards humans like many other Dalish, nonetheless, was Hawke being a Shemlen and an outsider the reason that she repeatedly failed to give them critical information, which would have better helped steer Merrill away from her dangerous path?
** After what we learn in Inquisition, the [[spoiler: Pride Demon in Merrill's quest.]] Was it always a [[spoiler: demon manipulating Merrill into granting it its freedom]], or was it a [[spoiler: spirit of wisdom, warped into a demon by Marethari's perceptions and refusal to admit she might be wrong]]?

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** Marethari - was she trying to [[spoiler: save Merrill from a fatal mistake,]] mistake]], or was she [[spoiler: denying Merrill her agency ''and'' endangering her clan by keeping them in one place for years?]] years]]? For that matter, [[spoiler: there's an argument that Audacity was always at least as interested in her as Merrill - they both heard its call the first time.]] While Marethari never shows intolerance towards humans like many other Dalish, nonetheless, was Hawke being a Shemlen and an outsider the reason that she repeatedly failed to give them critical information, which would have better helped steer Merrill away from her dangerous path?
** After what we learn in Inquisition, the [[spoiler: Pride Demon in Merrill's quest.]] quest]]. Was it always a [[spoiler: demon manipulating Merrill into granting it its freedom]], or was it a [[spoiler: spirit of wisdom, warped into a demon by Marethari's perceptions and refusal to admit she might be wrong]]?



** Isabela is either a walking [[SugarWiki/FunnyMoments funny moment]] or a DesignatedHero. Less severe than the other listed examples, particularly compared to Anders or Carver, and because the game does include several potential SelfDeprecation moments.
*** She's also either a [[EthicalSlut confident, strong, sex-positive woman,]] or an [[SlutShaming STD factory on legs.]]

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** Isabela is either a walking [[SugarWiki/FunnyMoments funny moment]] SugarWiki/{{Funny Moment|s}} or a DesignatedHero.{{Designated Hero}}ine. Less severe than the other listed examples, particularly compared to Anders or Carver, and because the game does include several potential SelfDeprecation moments.
*** She's also either a [[EthicalSlut confident, strong, sex-positive woman,]] woman]], or an [[SlutShaming STD factory on legs.]]legs]].



** Tallis. This boils down to how much one likes FeliciaDay and her involvement in MOTA, as well as how much one likes the Qunari. Many found her character fascinating and felt that Day gave a really compelling performance. Others were annoyed that she succeeds in her goals, irrespective of whether Hawke is anti-Qunari, feel her dialogue has a motable tinge of [[CantArgueWithElves "Can't argue with Qunari!"]] to it (for example, a Mage!Hawke can't bring up Saarabas), and argue that MOTA feels like "Dragon Age starring FeliciaDay (with Hawke and Co. tagging along)"; thus they deemed her to be veering on CanonSue status.
** Merrill, especially as time has gone on. There's a good-sized faction of fans angry with Bioware for taking a no-nonsense, hard-nosed female authority figure in ''[=DA1=]'' and turning her into a {{Moe}} BunnyEarsLawyer CloudCuckoolander, straight down to substantial physical changes to make her look ''far'' younger than her previous appearance. Others argue that she's a hugely important component of the story, as while other characters might provide "comic relief", nearly all the rest of it is of the bitter, ironic kind; Merrill is the only one who can provide legitimate ''levity'' thanks to her dogged innocence. They also point out that the game desperately needs a character like her to provide Hawke a different perspective on things. (Which leads the other side of the base wondering why BioWare couldn't have written a new character for the levity instead of rewriting a pre-existing hard-nosed female authority figure for the role.)

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** Tallis. This boils down to how much one likes FeliciaDay and her involvement in MOTA, as well as how much one likes the Qunari. Many found her character fascinating and felt that Day gave a really compelling performance. Others were annoyed that she succeeds in her goals, irrespective of whether Hawke is anti-Qunari, feel her dialogue has a motable tinge of [[CantArgueWithElves "Can't argue with Qunari!"]] to it (for example, a Mage!Hawke can't bring up Saarabas), and argue that MOTA feels like "Dragon Age starring FeliciaDay (with Hawke and Co. tagging along)"; thus they deemed her to be veering on CanonSue Canon Sue status.
** Merrill, especially as time has gone on. There's a good-sized faction of fans angry with Bioware for taking a no-nonsense, hard-nosed female authority figure in ''[=DA1=]'' and turning her into a {{Moe}} BunnyEarsLawyer CloudCuckoolander, {{Cloudcuckoolander}}, straight down to substantial physical changes to make her look ''far'' younger than her previous appearance. Others argue that she's a hugely important component of the story, as while other characters might provide "comic relief", nearly all the rest of it is of the bitter, ironic kind; Merrill is the only one who can provide legitimate ''levity'' thanks to her dogged innocence. They also point out that the game desperately needs a character like her to provide Hawke a different perspective on things. (Which leads the other side of the base wondering why BioWare couldn't have written a new character for the levity instead of rewriting a pre-existing hard-nosed female authority figure for the role.)



* [[SugarWiki/FunnyMoments Crowning Music Of Awesome]]: The song that plays in the ''Destiny'' trailer, especially the chorus.

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* [[SugarWiki/FunnyMoments [[SugarWiki/AwesomeMusic Crowning Music Of of Awesome]]: The song that plays in the ''Destiny'' trailer, especially the chorus.



** Fenris. He gets Woobie points for his slave background, but the resulting hatred of mages makes him wholly unsympathetic towards them. He even asserts that Merrill's a monster while she's in mourning (see above). On the other hand, it's hard not to feel bad for him when you find out that [[spoiler:he competed for the chance to be used as the subject of his master's ritual, not for his own sake, but to free his mother and sister from slavery... only for his sister to eventually turn him in to his former master in order to become his apprentice.]]

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** Fenris. He gets Woobie points for his slave background, but the resulting hatred of mages makes him wholly unsympathetic towards them. He even asserts that Merrill's a monster while she's in mourning (see above). On the other hand, it's hard not to feel bad for him when you find out that [[spoiler:he competed for the chance to be used as the subject of his master's ritual, not for his own sake, but to free his mother and sister from slavery... only for his sister to eventually turn him in to his former master in order to become his apprentice.]]apprentice]].



* MightyWhitey[=/=]WhiteMansBurden: Especially as time goes on, more and more fans are raising eyebrows at the implications that Hawke, a human (Western European FantasyCounterpartCulture) is treated (both in-universe and out) as having more authority over whether the Eluvian should or shouldn't, can or cannot be repaired by Merrill, an actual elf (whose Dalish culture has rather tribal undertones) and [[BadassBookworm highly educated Keeper's First]] who's done extensive research into a relic of her own people's history. [[note]]While Keeper Marethari tries to discourage Merrill's mission too, there is a sizable AlternateCharacterInterpretation that she tries to stop Merrill out of pride that Merrill might be right rather than legitimate knowledge on the subject. It doesn't help that Merrill reveals that she's done her research on the Eluvian, while Marethari refused to even look at her research before saying, "No."[[/note]] The fact that Morrigan, a human mage, successfully repaired an Eluvian in the previous Witch Hunt DLC and still has a working Eluvian in DAI, with no characters questioning her abilities as they do Merrill, leads to even more potential implications about (Western-European counterpart) human characters knowing what's best for elves (who have shades of many real-world colonized cultures) and how to work elven technology better than the elves themselves. In fairness, much of Hawke's (and the player's) potential objections to Merrill repairing the Eluvian are centered around practical and ethical concerns over the [[BloodMagic specific methods]] Merrill is employing to do it, as well as legitimate fear for Merrill's own safety (and the safety of those around her). Merrill will also [[WhatTheHellHero call Hawke out]] if (s)he declines to give her the Arulin'Holm, pointing out that (s)he is effectively stealing an important historical Elven artifact. Similarly, Solas can chew out Morrigan in DAI for her somewhat entitled attitude towards Elven culture simply for knowing all the myths.

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* MightyWhitey[=/=]WhiteMansBurden: Especially as time goes on, more and more fans are raising eyebrows at the implications that Hawke, a human (Western European FantasyCounterpartCulture) is treated (both in-universe and out) as having more authority over whether the Eluvian should or shouldn't, can or cannot be repaired by Merrill, an actual elf (whose Dalish culture has rather tribal undertones) and [[BadassBookworm highly educated Keeper's First]] who's done extensive research into a relic of her own people's history. [[note]]While Keeper Marethari tries to discourage Merrill's mission too, there is a sizable AlternateCharacterInterpretation AlternativeCharacterInterpretation that she tries to stop Merrill out of pride that Merrill might be right rather than legitimate knowledge on the subject. It doesn't help that Merrill reveals that she's done her research on the Eluvian, while Marethari refused to even look at her research before saying, "No."[[/note]] The fact that Morrigan, a human mage, successfully repaired an Eluvian in the previous Witch Hunt DLC and still has a working Eluvian in DAI, with no characters questioning her abilities as they do Merrill, leads to even more potential implications about (Western-European counterpart) human characters knowing what's best for elves (who have shades of many real-world colonized cultures) and how to work elven technology better than the elves themselves. In fairness, much of Hawke's (and the player's) potential objections to Merrill repairing the Eluvian are centered around practical and ethical concerns over the [[BloodMagic specific methods]] Merrill is employing to do it, as well as legitimate fear for Merrill's own safety (and the safety of those around her). Merrill will also [[WhatTheHellHero call Hawke out]] if (s)he declines to give her the Arulin'Holm, pointing out that (s)he is effectively stealing an important historical Elven artifact. Similarly, Solas can chew out Morrigan in DAI for her somewhat entitled attitude towards Elven culture simply for knowing all the myths.



* MostAnnoyingSound: Mage!Hawke shouting "I need mana!" in combat. Particularly annoying if he/she is a blood mage, since that means that he/she ''doesn't'' need mana at all.
** The pain sounds of hostile Mabari are ''very loud'', and may potentially be a bit heartwrenching, depending on how you feel about [[ShootTheDog killing dogs]] (even if in self-defense).



** Some fans' reactions to [[spoiler:Anders ''nuking'' Kirkwall's Chantry in order to start a war between mages and Templars have been disgust and horror.]]

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** Some fans' reactions to [[spoiler:Anders ''nuking'' Kirkwall's Chantry in order to start a war between mages and Templars have been disgust and horror.]]horror]].



* MostAnnoyingSound: Mage!Hawke shouting "I need mana!" in combat. Particularly annoying if he/she is a blood mage, since that means that he/she ''doesn't'' need mana at all.
** The pain sounds of hostile Mabari are ''very loud'', and may potentially be a bit heartwrenching, depending on how you feel about [[ShootTheDog killing dogs]] (even if in self-defense).



** [[spoiler: Orsino.]] Besides his [[spoiler: association with Quentin, who killed Hawke's mother,]] his reaction [[DespairEventHorizon to the deaths of so many mages at the hands of the templars]], which would have garnered public sympathy for the mages, was to prove Meredith right by [[spoiler: turning himself into a Harvester and attacking Hawke and company.]]

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** [[spoiler: Orsino.]] Besides his [[spoiler: association with Quentin, who killed Hawke's mother,]] mother]], his reaction [[DespairEventHorizon to the deaths of so many mages at the hands of the templars]], which would have garnered public sympathy for the mages, was to prove Meredith right by [[spoiler: turning himself into a Harvester and attacking Hawke and company.]] company]].



** Anders. Went from snarky comic relief to a paranoid and angsty nutcase. Life has not been good to him. His rudeness to various people, particularly Merrill, gradually edges him towards JerkassWoobie before [[spoiler: diving straight into WoobieDestroyerOfWorlds with his little [[EarthShatteringKaboom stunt]] at the Chantry.]]

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** Anders. Went from snarky comic relief to a paranoid and angsty nutcase. Life has not been good to him. His rudeness to various people, particularly Merrill, gradually edges him towards JerkassWoobie before [[spoiler: diving straight into WoobieDestroyerOfWorlds with his little [[EarthShatteringKaboom stunt]] at the Chantry.]]Chantry]].



** Leandra Hawke. She's a grieving widow to start, and then one of her children gets killed in the beginning of the game. Later, she learns that her brother [[spoiler: stole her inheritance. Another of her children either dies or must spend the rest of his/her life in the Circle of Magi, the Templars, or the Grey Wardens. To top it all off, she's kidnapped by Quentin and put through an AndIMustScream moment.]]

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** Leandra Hawke. She's a grieving widow to start, and then one of her children gets killed in the beginning of the game. Later, she learns that her brother [[spoiler: stole her inheritance. Another of her children either dies or must spend the rest of his/her life in the Circle of Magi, the Templars, or the Grey Wardens. To top it all off, she's kidnapped by Quentin and put through an AndIMustScream moment.]]moment]].



** Might as well add the remaining party members into the Woobie category - Aveline's main source of Woobieness is that her husband dies in the prologue (with either her or Hawke dealing the killing blow), but she's also clearly scarred from the events in Ostagar, and in Act III has to deal with [[spoiler: Jeven trying to spread insubordination among her guardsmen.]] Then there's Sebastian, whose backstory is that his whole family was killed off by assassins ([[spoiler: sent by his family's friends, no less]]), and in the game's finale [[spoiler: his mother figure, Elthina, is blown up by Anders.]] Isabela's backstory reveals [[spoiler: that she was sold by her mother in exchange for a goat, and lived as her husband's property until Zevran killed him. Since then she's lived a pretty rough life as a pirate, and even notes when Merrill is feeling jealous of the 'excitement' that she shouldn't want Isabela's life, because she's a 'good person and deserves better'. If Izzy returns during the fight with the Qunari in Act II, Hawke can also hand her over to the Arishok so that she can be taken back with them for punishment.]] Lastly there's Varric, who's had to put up with Bartrand's {{Jerkass}}ery for a ''long'' time, is [[spoiler: betrayed by him in the Deep Roads, and then either has to kill Bartrand or spend the rest of his days looking after him now that his brother's completely insane.]]

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** Might as well add the remaining party members into the Woobie category - Aveline's main source of Woobieness is that her husband dies in the prologue (with either her or Hawke dealing the killing blow), but she's also clearly scarred from the events in Ostagar, and in Act III has to deal with [[spoiler: Jeven trying to spread insubordination among her guardsmen.]] guardsmen]]. Then there's Sebastian, whose backstory is that his whole family was killed off by assassins ([[spoiler: sent by his family's friends, no less]]), and in the game's finale [[spoiler: his mother figure, Elthina, is blown up by Anders.]] Anders]]. Isabela's backstory reveals [[spoiler: that she was sold by her mother in exchange for a goat, and lived as her husband's property until Zevran killed him. Since then she's lived a pretty rough life as a pirate, and even notes when Merrill is feeling jealous of the 'excitement' that she shouldn't want Isabela's life, because she's a 'good person and deserves better'. If Izzy returns during the fight with the Qunari in Act II, Hawke can also hand her over to the Arishok so that she can be taken back with them for punishment.]] punishment]]. Lastly there's Varric, who's had to put up with Bartrand's {{Jerkass}}ery for a ''long'' time, is [[spoiler: betrayed by him in the Deep Roads, and then either has to kill Bartrand or spend the rest of his days looking after him now that his brother's completely insane.]]insane]].
28th May '16 12:06:58 PM Koveras
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* WoobieFamily: The Hawkes. Malcolm Hawke spent his life on the run as an apostate mage, his wife Leandra was disowned by her noble family for eloping with him, then he died shortly before the Fifth Blight destroyed everything he left to her and their three children. One of said children was then killed by the Darkspawn in front of their mother and siblings, another ([[StoryBranching potentially]]) died from [[ThePlague the Taint]], their mother [[spoiler:was turned into a zombie by a deranged mage and had to be put down by her eldest child]], and the eldest child became the world's premier CosmicPlaything, when their attempts to take care of their dysfunctional friends and family brought about several cataclysmic events that shook Thedas to the core.
28th May '16 5:57:09 AM Galliwasp
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* MightyWhitey[=/=]WhiteMansBurden: Especially as time goes on, more and more fans are raising eyebrows at the implications that Hawke, a human (Western European FantasyCounterpartCulture) is treated (both in-universe and out) as having more authority over whether the Eluvian should or shouldn't, can or cannot be repaired by Merrill, an actual elf (whose Dalish culture has rather tribal undertones) and [[BadassBookworm highly educated Keeper's First]] who's done extensive research into a relic of her own people's history. [[note]]While Keeper Marethari tries to discourage Merrill's mission too, there is a sizable AlternateCharacterInterpretation that she tries to stop Merrill out of pride that Merrill might be right rather than legitimate knowledge on the subject. It doesn't help that Merrill reveals that she's done her research on the Eluvian, while Marethari refused to even look at her research before saying, "No."[[/note]] The fact that Morrigan, a human mage, successfully repaired an Eluvian in the previous Witch Hunt DLC and still has a working Eluvian in DAI, with no characters questioning her abilities as they do Merrill, leads to even more unfortunate implications about (Western-European counterpart) human characters knowing what's best for elves (who have shades of many real-world colonized cultures) and how to work elven technology better than the elves themselves.

to:

* MightyWhitey[=/=]WhiteMansBurden: Especially as time goes on, more and more fans are raising eyebrows at the implications that Hawke, a human (Western European FantasyCounterpartCulture) is treated (both in-universe and out) as having more authority over whether the Eluvian should or shouldn't, can or cannot be repaired by Merrill, an actual elf (whose Dalish culture has rather tribal undertones) and [[BadassBookworm highly educated Keeper's First]] who's done extensive research into a relic of her own people's history. [[note]]While Keeper Marethari tries to discourage Merrill's mission too, there is a sizable AlternateCharacterInterpretation that she tries to stop Merrill out of pride that Merrill might be right rather than legitimate knowledge on the subject. It doesn't help that Merrill reveals that she's done her research on the Eluvian, while Marethari refused to even look at her research before saying, "No."[[/note]] The fact that Morrigan, a human mage, successfully repaired an Eluvian in the previous Witch Hunt DLC and still has a working Eluvian in DAI, with no characters questioning her abilities as they do Merrill, leads to even more unfortunate potential implications about (Western-European counterpart) human characters knowing what's best for elves (who have shades of many real-world colonized cultures) and how to work elven technology better than the elves themselves.themselves. In fairness, much of Hawke's (and the player's) potential objections to Merrill repairing the Eluvian are centered around practical and ethical concerns over the [[BloodMagic specific methods]] Merrill is employing to do it, as well as legitimate fear for Merrill's own safety (and the safety of those around her). Merrill will also [[WhatTheHellHero call Hawke out]] if (s)he declines to give her the Arulin'Holm, pointing out that (s)he is effectively stealing an important historical Elven artifact. Similarly, Solas can chew out Morrigan in DAI for her somewhat entitled attitude towards Elven culture simply for knowing all the myths.
16th May '16 1:32:47 AM Immortalbear
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** This is also the case with the Friendship/Rivalry approval system. Many players complain that DAI used the old approval system whereas Dragon Age 2 provided a system in which a player could disagree with their companions and still gain benefits.
9th Mar '16 9:48:03 PM RomanBowler
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* BaseBreaker: The companions in general (with the exception of Varric). To be more specific:

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* BaseBreaker: The companions in general (with the exception of Varric).Varric who is beloved by the fandom). To be more specific:
4th Mar '16 10:14:10 PM RomanBowler
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** Aveline is either the perfect StraightMan to almost all of the other party members and Snarky!Hawke or someone who doesn't really fit well to the overall story of the game and should have left early.
4th Mar '16 9:57:32 PM RomanBowler
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** Fenris is either a compelling character that shows the darkest of what a minority has to face or has a huge stick up his butt for every single thing that has something to do with magic to the point of being the Templars viewpoint version of Anders. Not as severe as Anders though because at least he's willing to accept Bethany and a Mage Hawke and is more self aware about it.
4th Mar '16 9:49:23 PM RomanBowler
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* BaseBreaker: The companions in general. To be more specific:

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* BaseBreaker: The companions in general.general (with the exception of Varric). To be more specific:
5th Feb '16 12:10:14 AM Scabbard
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*** There's a pretty significant hatedom that perceives Merrill as a clueless, arrogant, ditzy, stubborn idiot who excels at screwing up (particularly how she handles [[spoiler:the Eluvian, which can ultimately lead to her ''entire tribe dying'' for what is, essentially, reclaiming tradition for tradition's sake.]] Her attitude towards blood magic and ''especially'' demons fuels this side's hatred even more. On the flip side, her fans tend to find her more clueless and ditzy moments [[TheCutie sweet, funny, and endearing]], and believe that acting ditzy doesn't make her any [[GeniusDitz less intelligent]] or [[BunnyEarsLawyer capable]] at [[BadassBookworm what she does]]. And while most would agree Merrill can be too prideful for her own good, her fans believe that she has a strong grasp on the dangers of [[spoiler: the Eluvian]], blood magic, and demons, and what trips her up is other characters constantly undermining and sabotaging her efforts and then blaming her for them not working out ([[spoiler:particularly Marethari ''choosing'' to let the demon possess her behind Merrill's back, and then Merrill getting blamed for said choice]]); she may have too much confidence in her abilities, but her issue stems from other characters not having enough confidence in her abilities.

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*** There's a pretty significant hatedom that perceives Merrill as a clueless, arrogant, ditzy, stubborn idiot who excels at screwing up (particularly how she handles [[spoiler:the Eluvian, which can ultimately lead to her ''entire tribe dying'' for what is, essentially, reclaiming tradition for tradition's sake.]] sake)]]. Her attitude towards blood magic and ''especially'' demons fuels this side's hatred even more. On the flip side, her fans tend to find her more clueless and ditzy moments [[TheCutie sweet, funny, and endearing]], and believe that acting ditzy doesn't make her any [[GeniusDitz less intelligent]] or [[BunnyEarsLawyer capable]] at [[BadassBookworm what she does]]. And while most would agree Merrill can be too prideful for her own good, her fans believe that she has a strong grasp on the dangers of [[spoiler: the Eluvian]], blood magic, and demons, and what trips her up is other characters constantly undermining and sabotaging her efforts and then blaming her for them not working out ([[spoiler:particularly Marethari ''choosing'' to let the demon possess her behind Merrill's back, and then Merrill getting blamed for said choice]]); she may have too much confidence in her abilities, but her issue stems from other characters not having enough confidence in her abilities.
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