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* ILoveNuclearPower: Atomic Skull.
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* NeverMyFault: Professor Baxter's [[AngryBlackMan son blames]] Superman for [[spoiler:his father's death]] when in reality it's mostly his own because [[spoiler:he's the one who dragged his father into the danger zone just so he could get a close-up look at The Elite]]. Near the end, just as [[spoiler:Superman is seemingly about to finish off Manchester Black]], he [[HeelRealization pretty much admits to finally understanding why]] Superman [[spoiler:didn't kill Atomic Skull]] back then.

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* NeverMyFault: Professor Baxter's [[AngryBlackMan son blames]] blames Superman for [[spoiler:his father's death]] when in reality it's mostly his own because [[spoiler:he's the one who dragged his father into the danger zone just so he could get a close-up look at The Elite]]. Near the end, just as [[spoiler:Superman is seemingly about to finish off Manchester Black]], he [[HeelRealization pretty much admits to finally understanding why]] Superman [[spoiler:didn't kill Atomic Skull]] back then.
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* DirtyCoward: The Elite are cocky, arrogant, and cheerfully murderous antiheroes who enjoy killing bad guys and lecturing Superman on how [[GoodIsOldFashioned his morals are outdated]]... as long as they're the ones on the giving end, not receiving it. [[spoiler:When Superman stops holding back and uses their own rules and logic against them, they sing an entirely different tune; by the end, Black, BroughtDownToNormal and at Supes' mercy, breaks down and cries like a scared little girl on live TV.]]

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* DirtyCoward: The Elite are cocky, arrogant, and cheerfully murderous antiheroes who enjoy killing bad guys and lecturing Superman on how [[GoodIsOldFashioned his morals are outdated]]... as long as they're the ones on the giving end, not receiving it. [[spoiler:When Superman stops holding back and uses their own rules and logic against them, they sing an entirely different tune; by the end, Black, BroughtDownToNormal and at Supes' mercy, breaks down and cries like a scared little girl child on live TV.]]



** In his fight against the bioweapon bug monster Superman initially doesn't fare very well. Once he stops holding back however, he curb stomps it. [[spoiler:Guess how his final confrontation with the Elite goes.]]

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** In his fight against the bioweapon bug monster Superman initially doesn't fare very well. Once he stops holding back however, he curb stomps curb-stomps it. [[spoiler:Guess how his final confrontation with the Elite goes.]]



* MightMakesRight: Manchester Black is portrayed in the wrong for arguing that. Later on, Superman [[spoiler: completely deconstructs this by faking his MoralEventHorizon and pretending to kill Manchester's team, showing that his might does ''not'' make it right at all.]]

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* MightMakesRight: [[invoked]] Manchester Black is portrayed in the wrong for arguing that. Later on, Superman [[spoiler: completely deconstructs this by faking his MoralEventHorizon and pretending to kill Manchester's team, showing that his might does ''not'' make it right at all.]]
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* [[WellIntentionedExtremists Well-Intentioned Extremists]]: The Elite, at least before they [[JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope jump off the slippery slope]]. They admire Superman, but they also truly believe that their brutal, fascistic approach to heroics, which culminate in their ruling the world by force as de facto dictators, is the only way to save humanity from itself.

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* [[WellIntentionedExtremists [[WellIntentionedExtremist Well-Intentioned Extremists]]: The Elite, at least before they [[JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope jump off the slippery slope]]. They While they admire Superman, but they also truly believe that their brutal, fascistic approach to heroics, which would culminate in their ruling the world by force as de facto dictators, is the only way to save humanity from itself.
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* {{Well Intentioned Extremist}}s: The Elite, at least before they [[JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope jump off the slippery slope]]. They admire Superman, but they also truly believe that their brutal approach to heroics is the only way to save the world.

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* {{Well Intentioned Extremist}}s: [[WellIntentionedExtremists Well-Intentioned Extremists]]: The Elite, at least before they [[JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope jump off the slippery slope]]. They admire Superman, but they also truly believe that their brutal brutal, fascistic approach to heroics heroics, which culminate in their ruling the world by force as de facto dictators, is the only way to save the world.humanity from itself.
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Nice Hat is now a disambiguation page.


* NiceHat: The Hat, of course.
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* MenOfSherwood: Superman's detachment of robots at the Fortress of Solitude handily [[spoiler:yank civilians out of harm's way and take custody of the defeated members of the Elite in the finale battle]] without any trouble when Superman couldn't have done all of that himself.
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** When Superman decides to break his ThouShaltNotKill rule. [[spoiler:It turns out he just knocked out or disabled the Elite and had his Superman robots carry people off to make it appear as if they had died.]]

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** When Superman decides to break his ThouShaltNotKill rule. [[spoiler:It turns out he just knocked out or disabled the Elite and had his Superman robots carry people off to make it appear as if they had died. In effect, Superman ''weaponized'' this trope to demonstrate why he shouldn't fall to the Elite's level.]]



* UnreliableNarrator: When Black reveals his past to Superman, he leaves out certain elements - for example, [[spoiler:that he killed his father, and that when he stopped the train from killing his sister, he ended up killing about a dozen people.]]

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* UnreliableNarrator: When Black reveals his past to Superman, he leaves out certain elements - for example, [[spoiler:that he killed his father, and that when he stopped the train from killing his sister, he ended up killing about a dozen people. He also implies that his sister died, only for Lois to discover that she's still alive and working as an agent.]]
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** Atomic Skull mentions [[Comicbook/{{Invasion}} the Meta-Gene Bomb]] which gave him his powers.

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** Atomic Skull mentions [[Comicbook/{{Invasion}} [[Comicbook/InvasionDCComics the Meta-Gene Bomb]] which gave him his powers.

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* AdultFear:
-->'''Clark Kent:''' I heard a child say that he wanted to be in the Elite when he grows up because "[[TroublingUnchildlikeBehavior it would be fun to kill bad guys]]." ''Fun'' to ''kill''.


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* TroublingUnchildlikeBehavior:
-->'''Clark Kent:''' I heard a child say that he wanted to be in the Elite when he grows up because "it would be fun to kill bad guys." ''Fun'' to ''kill''.
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* KickTheSonOfABitch: The Elite operate on a PayEvilUntoEvil mentality. [[DeconstructedTrope Deconstructed]] when they kill the leaders of Pokolistan and Bialya. Regardless of who started the war and brutal their attempts at winning are, it's clear that killing the entire governments of both countries is a '''terrible''' idea that does nothing to resolve the underlying issues.

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* KickTheSonOfABitch: The Elite operate on a PayEvilUntoEvil mentality. [[DeconstructedTrope Deconstructed]] when they kill the leaders of Pokolistan and Bialya. Regardless of who started the war and how brutal their attempts at winning are, it's clear that killing the entire governments of both countries is a '''terrible''' idea that does nothing to resolve the underlying issues.



* VillainHasAPoint: The Elite are not wrong that Supes ThouShallNotKill policy leads to the villains re-offending and killing more people, and the civilians do agree that some villains ''need'' to be killed. The problem is when killing becomes their first response to any problem, resulting in a KnightTemplar mentality.

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* VillainHasAPoint: The Elite are not wrong that Supes Supes' ThouShallNotKill policy leads to the villains re-offending and killing more people, and the civilians do agree that some villains ''need'' to be killed. The problem is when killing becomes their first response to any problem, resulting in a KnightTemplar mentality.
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* VillainHasAPoint: The Elite are not wrong that Supes ThouShallNotKill policy leads to the villains re-offending and killing more people, and the civilians do agree that some villains ''need'' to be killed. The problem is when killing becomes their first response to any problem, resulting in a KnightTemplar mentality.
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* SlidingScaleOfIdealismVersusCynicism: The film thoroughly and intelligently explores this trope. While it winds up picking a side, it never resorts to being {{Anvilicious}} about it and we are still presented with defensible arguments for the opposing side.
* SmoochOfVictory: Menagerie gives one to Superman (which he gives no indication of wanting). Lois does not approve.
* SmugSuper: Manchester, oh so very much.
* SparedByTheAdaptation: In the original comics, [[spoiler:Pamela[=/=]Menagerie ended up getting lobotomized by Manchester Black]].

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* SlidingScaleOfIdealismVersusCynicism: The film thoroughly and intelligently explores this trope. While it winds up picking a side, it never resorts to being {{Anvilicious}} preachy about it and we are still presented with defensible arguments for the opposing side.
* SmoochOfVictory: Menagerie gives one a kiss to Superman after a mission (which he gives no indication of wanting). Lois does not approve.
* SmugSuper: Manchester, oh so very much.
Manchester thinks highly of himself because of his powers.
* SparedByTheAdaptation: In the original comics, [[spoiler:Pamela[=/=]Menagerie ended up getting lobotomized by Manchester Black]].Black. Here, all that happens to her is losing her powers]].

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* AdaptationalModesty: Menagerie wears a revealing outfit, but her comic counterpart was clearly naked outside of the alien creatures covering her. Coldcast in the comic was bare chested in the comic aside from his chains, here he wears a shirt.

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* AdaptationalModesty: Menagerie wears a revealing outfit, but her comic counterpart was clearly naked outside of the alien creatures covering her.her (Menagerie even still has her outfit when the alien creatures leave her body in this film rather than being left naked as she was in the comic story). Coldcast in the comic was bare chested in the comic aside from his chains, here he wears a shirt.



** The Hat. Complete with VomitDiscretionShot.
** Also, Manchester Black's father. [[UnreliableNarrator Probably.]]

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** The Hat.Hat is constantly boozing. Complete with VomitDiscretionShot.
** Also, Manchester Black's father.father was an abusive alcoholic. [[UnreliableNarrator Probably.]]



* AntiHero: The Elite can be considered this or straight-up villains.

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* AntiHero: The Elite can be considered this or straight-up villains.villains, given how quick they are to use killing people as the best solution to the world's problems.



* AxCrazy: Atomic Skull, who gleefully murders countless innocent people just to draw Superman out.

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* AxCrazy: AxCrazy:
**
Atomic Skull, who gleefully murders countless innocent people just to draw Superman out.



* BadassLongcoat: Manchester Black sports one.

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* BadassLongcoat: Manchester Black sports one.wears a long coat.



** An unwanted one from Menagerie to Superman.

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** An unwanted one kiss from Menagerie to Superman.



* BloodFromTheMouth: Superman of all people is not immune to this, courtesy of the Elite's powers.

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* BloodFromTheMouth: Superman of all people is not immune to this, oral bleeding, courtesy of the Elite's powers.



* BoomHeadshot: [[spoiler:How Manchester Black kills Atomic Skull.]]

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* BoomHeadshot: [[spoiler:How Manchester [[spoiler:Manchester Black kills Atomic Skull.Skull by firing a blast that shatters his head.]]



* BrokenPedestal: In the movie version Manchester Black and the rest of the Elite deeply respect and admire Superman when they first meet him, even standing speechless for a bit. Of course, all that goes right out the window when he tries to enforce ThouShaltNotKill on them.

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* BrokenPedestal: BrokenPedestal:
**
In the movie version Manchester Black and the rest of the Elite deeply respect and admire Superman when they first meet him, even standing speechless for a bit. Of course, all that goes right out the window when he tries to enforce ThouShaltNotKill on them.



* DeathByAdaptation: [[spoiler:Atomic Skull.]]

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* DeathByAdaptation: [[spoiler:Atomic Skull.Skull gets killed by Manchester Black, when he was still alive in the comics.]]



* DreadlockWarrior: Coldcast of the Elite.

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* DreadlockWarrior: Coldcast of the Elite.Elite has dreadlocks.



* EvilBrit: Manchester Black.

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* EvilBrit: Manchester Black.Black is British and a violent psychopath.



* EvilLawyerJoke: Atomic Skull cracks one when he mentions the people he's killed in order to draw out Superman.
* ExactlyWhatIAimedAt:

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* EvilLawyerJoke: Atomic Skull cracks one when he mentions the people he's killed in order to draw out Superman.
Superman, dismissing that his victims being lawyers means their deaths don't matter.
* ExactlyWhatIAimedAt:ExactlyWhatIAimedAt: In the final battle, Manchester Black thinks Superman is trying to use his heat vision on him and mocks him for it.



* HeWhoFightsMonsters: [[spoiler: Superman eventually decides to give the Elite an object lesson in this.]]

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* HeWhoFightsMonsters: [[spoiler: Superman eventually decides to give the Elite an object lesson in this.this by pretending to stoop to their level of resorting to lethal force.]]



* ImaginationBasedSuperpower: The power of Elite member, The Hat, with his hat.

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* ImaginationBasedSuperpower: The power of Elite member, The Hat, with Hat can use his hat.hat to create anything he can think of.



* KnightTemplar: The Elite. [[spoiler: Subverted with Superman.]]
* LanternJawOfJustice: Superman, as tradition, though more so in the movie due to the cartoony art style.

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* KnightTemplar: The Elite.Elite see themselves as heroes and are willing to resort to violent and cruel methods to deal with the world's problems. [[spoiler: Subverted with Superman.]]
* LanternJawOfJustice: Superman, Superman has a big chin, as tradition, though more so in the movie due to the cartoony art style.



* NoShirtLongJacket: Manchester's appearance. That's not a Union Jack shirt. That's a Union Jack ''tattoo''.

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* NoShirtLongJacket: Manchester's appearance. That's not a Union Jack shirt. That's a Union Jack ''tattoo''.''tattoo'' (you can actually see his nipples and navel in some shots).



* PayEvilUntoEvil: The Elite's modus operandi. [[spoiler: Which, much to their horror, they find they're not immune from themselves.]]

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* PayEvilUntoEvil: The Elite's modus operandi.operandi is to punish killers by killing them. [[spoiler: Which, much to their horror, they find they're not immune from themselves.]]



* PurpleIsPowerful: Atomic Skull.

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* PurpleIsPowerful: Atomic Skull.Skull is colored purple and is able to turn everyone he touches into ash.



* SecretKeeper: Lois and the Kents, of course.

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* SecretKeeper: Lois and the Kents, of course.course, know that Clark Kent and Superman are the same person.



* ScaryBlackMan: Coldcast.
* SelfMadeOrphan: [[spoiler:Manchester Black. See AbusiveParents.]]

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* ScaryBlackMan: Coldcast.
Coldcast is African-American and very intimidating.
* SelfMadeOrphan: [[spoiler:Manchester Black. See AbusiveParents.Black killed his own abusive father.]]

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* AdaptationDyeJob: The Hat's [[YouGottaHaveBlueHair blue hair]] is changed to black.

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* AdaptationDyeJob: The Hat's [[YouGottaHaveBlueHair blue hair]] hair is changed to black.



* YouGottaHaveBlueHair: Manchester Black has purple hair.
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* IdealistVsPragmatist: The primary conflict is Superman's idealistic ThouShallNotKill superhero-ing vs the Elite's much brasher By Any Means Necessary style. Initially, the public supports the Elite's willingness to kill, tired of [[CardboardPrison revolving prison doors]], but the group devolves into a MightMakesRight philosophy that gives them sole discretion to execute anyone they deem a baddie. Then they decide it's [[JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope time for Superman to die]]. After a brawl where it initially appears the Elite succeeded, Superman gives them ATasteOfTheirOwnMedicine, unleashing a [[CurbStompBattle can of whoop ass]] that shows that Superman with no mercy would be a [[BewareTheSuperman very bad thing]].
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* PacifismBackfire: The Atomic Skull goes on a killing spree merely to draw Superman out, and when he's subdued non-lethally, quickly breaks out and kills even ''more'' people. [[spoiler:When Superman still insists on upholding ThouShaltNotKill despite all of that, the people of Metropolis all side with the Elite and cheer them on when Black kills the Skull.]]
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* BothSidesHaveAPoint: The main conflict. Superman adamantly sticks to his ThouShaltNotKill policy even as the Elite gains public support for killing the bad guys, and when the Elite later declare that ''they'' decide who the villains are, and that "people who endanger innocent lives" can apply to more than just criminals and terrorists, it shows how the Elite's methods can lead to JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope and HeWhoFightsMonsters territory. On the other hand, the Elite believe their way is better since Superman just beating up criminals and having them thrown in {{Cardboard Prison}}s leads to JokerImmunity and allows villains like the Atomic Skull to just keep killing. Additionally, they have no regard for innocent bystanders, calling them "sheep" during the final battle.

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* BothSidesHaveAPoint: The main conflict. Superman adamantly sticks to his ThouShaltNotKill policy even as the Elite gains public support for killing the bad guys, and when the Elite later declare that ''they'' decide who the villains are, and that "people who endanger innocent lives" can apply to more than just criminals and terrorists, it shows how the Elite's methods can lead to JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope and HeWhoFightsMonsters territory. On the other hand, while they don't particularly care for innocent bystanders and aren't good at using their powers beyond [[CripplingOverspecialization killing and breaking things]], the Elite believe their way is better since Superman just beating up criminals and having them thrown in {{Cardboard Prison}}s [[CardboardPrison improper prisons]] leads to JokerImmunity and allows villains like the Atomic Skull to just keep killing. Additionally, killing... which, unfortunately, happens nearly all the time. Superman then cleverly manages to strike the middle ground by showing that, while the Elite's methods are effective, they have are ''dangerous''. How? He goes off the deep end by letting loose and seemingly murdering the Elite off one by one, showing no apparent regard for innocent bystanders, calling them "sheep" during collateral damage and effectively frightening everyone around him to the final battle.point that the once smug Manchester Black is begging for mercy at the hands of a fallen Man of Steel. [[spoiler: Or rather he fakes it, proving to the world that, while the Elite is right in that using lethal force will remove dangerous criminals, it won't make those committing the deed any better than those they're killing.]]
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* WrongGenreSavvy: Manchester Black and the Elite are convinced they are heroes carrying out neccessary acts to improve the world. They would be if they were in dark comic like ''ComicBook/TheAuthority'', but they are in a Superman story so their attitude instead makes them into villains.

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* WrongGenreSavvy: Manchester Black and the Elite are convinced they are heroes carrying out neccessary necessary acts to improve the world. They would be if they were in a dark comic like ''ComicBook/TheAuthority'', but they are in a Superman story so their attitude instead makes them into villains.
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* WhatYouAreInTheDark: Superman is facing off four incredibly powerful metahumans, all of whom have a despicable lack of respect for life, all of whom have no qualms about killing him for sport, and he has lost almost all of the support of every person on Earth. He has every chance and every reason to take The Elite down violently, permanently, and no one will blame him for it. And so he goes out and proves to the world what he truly is: [[spoiler: He's Superman.]]

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* WhatYouAreInTheDark: Superman is facing off four incredibly powerful metahumans, all of whom have a despicable lack of respect for life, all none of whom have no any qualms about killing him for sport, and he has lost almost all of the support of every person on Earth. He has every chance and every reason to take The Elite down violently, permanently, and no one will blame him for it. And so he goes out and proves to the world what he truly is: [[spoiler: He's Superman.]]
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* {{Well Intentioned Extremist}}s: The Elite, at least before they jump over the MoralEventHorizon. They admire Superman, but they also truly believe that their brutal approach to heroics is the only way to save the world.

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* {{Well Intentioned Extremist}}s: The Elite, at least before they [[JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope jump over off the MoralEventHorizon.slippery slope]]. They admire Superman, but they also truly believe that their brutal approach to heroics is the only way to save the world.
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* DirtyCoward: The Elite are cocky, arrogant, and cheerfully murderous antiheroes who enjoy killing bad guys and lecturing Superman on how [[GoodIsOldFashioned his morals are outdated]]... as long as they're the ones on the giving end, not receiving it. [[spoiler:When Superman stops holding back and uses their own rules and logic against them, they sing an entirely different tune; by the end, Black, BroughtDownToNormal and at Supes' mercy, breaks down and cries like a scared little girl on live TV.]]

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* OriginalPositionFallacy: Manchester and his team operate under a philosophy of MightMakesRight and consider it the best response to kill anyone who's threatening violence against others. They're horrified when Superman (who's stronger than all of them) responds to ''their'' violence in kind [[spoiler: or so it seems.]]



* TheUnfettered: The Elite. They initially demonstrate a willingness, nay, eagerness, to kill criminals. But the more the movie goes the more they show how little principles they have, murdering the leaders of two entire countries, and preparing to kill Superman after he punched Manchester Black after he dissaproved of the move. [[spoiler: When Superman is pretending to be out to kill the Elite, Manchest Black is prepared to destroy Metropolis, just to save his own skin.]]

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* TheUnfettered: The Elite. They initially demonstrate a willingness, nay, eagerness, to kill criminals. But the more the movie goes the more they show how little principles they have, murdering the leaders of two entire countries, and preparing to kill Superman after he punched Manchester Black after he dissaproved disaproved of the move. [[spoiler: When Superman is pretending to be out to kill the Elite, Manchest Manchester Black is prepared to destroy Metropolis, just to save his own skin.]]



* ViolenceIsTheOnlyOption: This is The Elite's underlying philosphy, which leads them into conflict with Superman. [[spoiler:It's notable that Superman defeats them through a combination of force and a BatmanGambit that demonstrates how their beliefs can lead to disastrous consequences.]]

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* ViolenceIsTheOnlyOption: This is The Elite's underlying philosphy, philosophy, which leads them into conflict with Superman. [[spoiler:It's notable that Superman defeats them through a combination of force and a BatmanGambit that demonstrates how their beliefs can lead to disastrous consequences.]]



** Manchester on the other hand [[spoiler: demonstrates how, for all his talk about improving the world, that he will destroy an entire city just to save their own skin.]]

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** Manchester on the other hand [[spoiler: demonstrates how, for all his talk about improving the world, that he will destroy an entire city full of innocents just to save their his own skin.]]
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* NotSoDifferent: Manchester attempts this on Supes at the end. Superman scoffs, "''Chester''..." and proceeds to show that he had taken precautions.

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* NotSoDifferent: NotSoDifferentRemark: Manchester attempts this on Supes at the end. Superman scoffs, "''Chester''..." and proceeds to show that he had taken precautions.
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* & While they aren't as bad as Atomic Skull, [[spoiler:the leaders of Bialya and Pokolistan]] are both {{jerkass}}es and warmongers. Their deaths at the hands of The Elite evoke some NightmareFuel, but not much sympathy.

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* & ** While they aren't as bad as Atomic Skull, [[spoiler:the leaders of Bialya and Pokolistan]] are both {{jerkass}}es and warmongers. Their deaths at the hands of The Elite evoke some NightmareFuel, but not much sympathy.
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*& While they aren't as bad as Atomic Skull, [[spoiler:the leaders of Bialya and Pokolistan]] are both {{jerkass}}es and warmongers. Their deaths at the hands of The Elite evoke some NightmareFuel, but not much sympathy.


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* TheCameo: The Bottle City of Kandor (with some tiny specks which appear to be its residents flying vehicles flying around the city) appears for about ten seconds when The Elite visit the Fortress of Solitude to threaten Superman.


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* EvenEvilHasLovedOnes: After Menagerie is wounded in the climax, Coldcast cares more about her safety than fighting Superman.
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Action Comics takes place in an entirely different continuity and the action of that alternate version of Atomic Skull should have no bearing on the False Dichotomy argument.


** As if to refute this argument, Terrence later ''begs'' Superman not to kill Manchester Black, [[MoralityChainBeyondTheGrave echoing his father's sentiments]]. Additionally, ''ComicBook/ActionComics [[ComicBook/DCRebirth Rebirth]]'' has Atomic Skull pull a HeelFaceTurn and join Maggie Sawyer's squad on the Metropolis PD.

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** As if to refute this argument, Terrence later ''begs'' Superman not to kill Manchester Black, [[MoralityChainBeyondTheGrave echoing his father's sentiments]]. Additionally, ''ComicBook/ActionComics [[ComicBook/DCRebirth Rebirth]]'' has Atomic Skull pull a HeelFaceTurn and join Maggie Sawyer's squad on the Metropolis PD.
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It was only Manchester who did that. Coldcast was with him but seems more interested in going back to help Pam.


** The Elite on the other hand [[spoiler: demonstrate how, for all their talk about improving the world, that they will destroy an entire city just to save their own skin.]]

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** The Elite Manchester on the other hand [[spoiler: demonstrate demonstrates how, for all their his talk about improving the world, that they he will destroy an entire city just to save their own skin.]]

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Useful Notes are not tropes.


* UsefulNotes/BritishEnglish: There's even a brief soccer/football argument.
-->'''Coldcast:''' Only thing shuts him up is a soccer game.\\
'''Manchester Black:''' Football, you uneducated yank.
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Dewicked trope


* BadPowersBadPeople: The Elite subvert this. They have AntagonistAbilities but working with Superman in rescuing people from a collaspsing subway demonstrates that they can use their powers to save people, they just aren't any good at it and have no desire to learn.

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* BadPowersBadPeople: The Elite subvert this. They have AntagonistAbilities superpowered abilities but working with Superman in rescuing people from a collaspsing collapsing subway demonstrates that they can use their powers to save people, they just aren't any good at it and have no desire to learn.

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