History WMG / TheSecretOfNIMH

21st Dec '17 4:12:29 PM Ingonyama
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* This borders on FridgeLogic: The Great Owl looks similar to Nicodemus, and is as intelligent as the rats, because he ate some of them early on, and whatever serum they were given mutated him as well. His induced intelligence, while not as benign as the rats', is what allows him to form a tenuous alliance with Nicodemus.
** Better yet, Auntie Shrew may have become enhanced the same way, having ambushed and devoured a young rat that wandered away from the colony. Her enhanced smarts not only led her to wear clothes, but to gain enough control over her natural shrewish appetites to refrain from eating the mice she subsequently befriended.

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* This borders on FridgeLogic: The Great Owl looks similar to Nicodemus, and is as intelligent as the rats, because he ate some of them early on, and whatever serum they were given mutated him as well. His induced intelligence, while not as benign as the rats', is what allows him to form a tenuous alliance with Nicodemus.
** * Better yet, Auntie Shrew may have become enhanced the same way, having ambushed and devoured a young rat that wandered away from the colony. Her enhanced smarts not only led her to wear clothes, but to gain enough control over her natural shrewish appetites to refrain from eating the mice she subsequently befriended.






























[[WMG: Mr.Ages' first name begins with a "J"]]

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[[WMG: Mr. Ages' first name begins with a "J"]]"J"]]


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21st Dec '17 4:10:40 PM Ingonyama
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* This borders on fridge logic: The Great Owl looks similar to Nicodemus, and is as intelligent as the rats, because he ate some of them early on, and whatever serum they were given mutated him as well. His induced intelligence, while not as benign as the rats', is what allows him to form a tenuous alliance with Nicodemus.

to:

* This borders on fridge logic: FridgeLogic: The Great Owl looks similar to Nicodemus, and is as intelligent as the rats, because he ate some of them early on, and whatever serum they were given mutated him as well. His induced intelligence, while not as benign as the rats', is what allows him to form a tenuous alliance with Nicodemus.







* As far as the rats having the ability to read, only Nicodemus demonstrated that ability- kind of justifiable considering he's psychic. But otherwise, it's a pretty good theory.

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\n* As far as the rats having the ability to read, only Nicodemus demonstrated that ability- kind ability--kind of justifiable considering he's psychic. But otherwise, it's a pretty good theory.



* They always seemed a bit...dodgy, because generally lab rats are pet rats, not wild ones. So they must have not wanted any one knowing one knowing what they were doing. They were not trying to produce a memory or learning drug, but one which may harshly separate humans with the drug to those without, like the normal rats from the NIMH rats.

to:

* They always seemed a bit...dodgy, because generally lab rats are pet rats, not wild ones. So they must have not wanted any one knowing one knowing what they were doing. They were not trying to produce a memory or learning drug, but one which may harshly separate humans with the drug to those without, like the normal rats from the NIMH rats.



* I just can't get this idea out of my head. It explains why such small animals as mice and rats have human level intelligence -- they are human size, it's the world AROUND them that's oversized. And the treatments at NIMH? They gave the rats a mental boost, but not as much as you'd think. If humans from the "normal" world got there, they'd find themselves the same size as Mrs. Brisby and Justin and the rest... and probably chased by NIMH as well.
** Wait...why would being human-size give the rats human intelligence levels?
** that would give them just about human-sized brains as well.

to:

* I just can't get this idea out of my head. It explains why such small animals as mice and rats have human level intelligence -- they are human size, it's the world AROUND them that's oversized. And the treatments at NIMH? They gave the rats a mental boost, but not as much as you'd think. If humans from the "normal" world got there, they'd find themselves the same size as Mrs. Brisby and Justin and the rest... and probably chased by NIMH as well.
** * Wait...why would being human-size give the rats human intelligence levels?
** that * That would give them just about human-sized brains as well.



* Hence the bandage on his head.

to:

* Hence the bandage on his head.



* Naming conventions are just something the rats of NIMH picked up from humans. Jonathan wanted his children to have names so that's why they have them.

to:

* Naming conventions are just something the rats of NIMH picked up from humans. Jonathan wanted his children to have names so that's why they have them.



* Think about it. The nine mice of NIMH that didn't make it through the air vents were ''officially pronounced'' dead because those who escaped to Fitzgibbons' farm [[NeverFoundTheBody didn't have the time to retrieve their corpses and confirm their deaths]]. At least one got away alive but unseen by the official group and had a family afterwards. [[LamarckWasRight This also explains Gadget's way-above-average IQ]].
** Its been suggested that her immediate father, Geegaw, was that mouse. He not only survived the air vent trip, but ''loved'' the experience and took up flying because of it.


to:

* Think about it. The nine mice of NIMH that didn't make it through the air vents were ''officially pronounced'' dead because those who escaped to Fitzgibbons' farm [[NeverFoundTheBody didn't have the time to retrieve their corpses and confirm their deaths]]. At least one got away alive but unseen by the official group and had a family afterwards. [[LamarckWasRight This also explains Gadget's way-above-average IQ]].
** Its * It's been suggested that her immediate father, Geegaw, was that mouse. He not only survived the air vent trip, but ''loved'' the experience and took up flying because of it.

it.



* It is unclear when exactly the film takes place, but ''An American Tail'' takes place in 1885 and ''All Dogs Go To Heaven'' takes place in 1939. It is possible that the film takes place somewhere in between those two movies. Because the more intelligent cats were sent away in ''Tail'' it may explain why Dragon behaves so animalistically, and it will also explain why animal intelligence is so common in ''Dogs''. At the very least, it is a nice thought.
** However the sequels may also be taken into account, in which case this theory falls apart.
** [[FanonDiscontinuity Would you really miss them if you were to follow this theory]]? Basically, it requires you to do that, and it is made easier by the fact that Creator/DonBluth didn't make the sequels. So this theory ''may'' still work when taking that stand.

to:

* It is unclear when exactly the film takes place, but ''An American Tail'' takes place in 1885 and ''All Dogs Go To Heaven'' takes place in 1939. It is possible that the film takes place somewhere in between those two movies. Because the more intelligent cats were sent away in ''Tail'' it may explain why Dragon behaves so animalistically, and it will also explain why animal intelligence is so common in ''Dogs''. At the very least, it is a nice thought.
** * However the sequels may also be taken into account, in which case this theory falls apart.
** * [[FanonDiscontinuity Would you really miss them if you were to follow this theory]]? Basically, it requires you to do that, and it is made easier by the fact that Creator/DonBluth didn't make the sequels. So this theory ''may'' still work when taking that stand.






Most of the guys who played key roles in the story had names beginning with "J", ex. Jonathon,Jeremy,etc.So,why not Mr.Ages?He was pretty helpful to the plot.I personally think it's Jacob...

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Most of the guys who played key roles in the story had names beginning with "J", ex. Jonathon,Jeremy,etc.So,why Jonathon, Jeremy, Justin, Jenner. So, why not Mr.Ages?He Mr. Ages? He was pretty helpful to the plot.plot. I personally think it's Jacob...



21st Dec '17 4:02:38 PM Ingonyama
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Manwë; and the other Valar got pretty much insane, and somehow managing to return to the real world because of the ArtifactOfDoom given to Mrs Brisby/Frisby. The process in which the rats gain consciousness in NIMH somehow mimicked the way the eä were given to men and the old middle-earth races, and the Valar perceived that as going against Eru's will and possibly done by corrupted Ainur, so the help provided by the owl/Mandos was all part of a plan to eliminate all the rats, mice and other sentient creatures.

to:

Manwë; Manwë and the other Valar got pretty much insane, and somehow managing to return to the real world because of the ArtifactOfDoom given to Mrs Brisby/Frisby. The process in which the rats gain consciousness in NIMH somehow mimicked the way the eä were given to men and the old middle-earth races, and the Valar perceived that as going against Eru's will and possibly done by corrupted Ainur, so the help provided by the owl/Mandos was all part of a plan to eliminate all the rats, mice and other sentient creatures.
21st Dec '17 4:01:52 PM Ingonyama
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Manwë and the other Valar got pretty much insane, and somehow managing to return to the real world because of the ArtifactOfDoom Mrs Brisby/Frisby. The process in which the rats gain conscience in NIMH somehow mimiced the way the eä were given to men and the old middle-earth races, and the Valar perceived that as going against Eru's will and possibly done by corrupted Ainur, so the help provided by the owl/Mandos was all part of a plan to eliminate all the rats, mice and other sentient creatures.

to:

Manwë Manwë; and the other Valar got pretty much insane, and somehow managing to return to the real world because of the ArtifactOfDoom given to Mrs Brisby/Frisby. The process in which the rats gain conscience consciousness in NIMH somehow mimiced mimicked the way the eä were given to men and the old middle-earth races, and the Valar perceived that as going against Eru's will and possibly done by corrupted Ainur, so the help provided by the owl/Mandos was all part of a plan to eliminate all the rats, mice and other sentient creatures.



* Creators did this for fun, to add more mystery than the poor movie could hold [[http://www.adammcdaniel.com/DonBluth/Don_Bluth_Interview3.htm ZOMG sause]]

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* Creators did this for fun, to add more mystery than the poor movie could hold [[http://www.adammcdaniel.com/DonBluth/Don_Bluth_Interview3.htm ZOMG sause]]
sauce]]



[[WMG: The scientists were trying to make an true intellegence boosting drug.]]
* They always seemed a bit...dodgy, because generally lab rats are pet rats, not wild ones. So they must have not wanted any one knowing one knowing what they were doing. They were not trying to produce a memory or learning drug, but one which may harshly seperate humans with the drug to those without, like the normal rats from the NIMH rats.

to:

[[WMG: The scientists were trying to make an true intellegence intelligence boosting drug.]]
* They always seemed a bit...dodgy, because generally lab rats are pet rats, not wild ones. So they must have not wanted any one knowing one knowing what they were doing. They were not trying to produce a memory or learning drug, but one which may harshly seperate separate humans with the drug to those without, like the normal rats from the NIMH rats.



[[WMG:The reason Martin gets over being turned insane in NIMH 2 is because the rats gave him a prefrontal lobotmy]]

to:

[[WMG:The reason Martin gets over being turned insane in NIMH 2 is because the rats gave him a prefrontal lobotmy]]lobotomy]]



* Naming conventions are just something the rats of NIMH picked up from humans. Johnathan wanted his children to have names so that's why they have them.

to:

* Naming conventions are just something the rats of NIMH picked up from humans. Johnathan Jonathan wanted his children to have names so that's why they have them.



So, "a son of Jonathan Brisby" will save the rats from the evil of NIMH, will he? Who was it, again, that managed to turn the tables on Valentine? That's right, Martin. Just because he turned temporarily evil doesn't mean his actions didn't benefit rodentkind as a whole. Jenny and Timmy get points for saving ''him,''
naturally, but Martin was the only genuine ChosenOne.

* Actually,this makes since to me.I mean,even though Martin turned evil,he DID turn the human scientists into dogs.We never see them get turned back,and they possibly died in the fire,so the scientists of NIMH are unable to do anymore harm.Martin truly is the Chosen One.
[[WMG: The Red Stone contained Johnathan Brisby's soul.]]

to:

So, "a son of Jonathan Brisby" will save the rats from the evil of NIMH, will he? Who was it, again, that managed to turn the tables on Valentine? That's right, Martin. Just because he turned temporarily evil doesn't mean his actions didn't benefit rodentkind as a whole. Jenny and Timmy get points for saving ''him,''
''him,'' naturally, but Martin was the only genuine ChosenOne.

* Actually,this Actually, this makes since to me.me. I mean,even mean, even though Martin turned evil,he evil, he DID turn the human scientists into dogs.dogs. We never see them get turned back,and back, and they possibly died in the fire,so fire, so the scientists of NIMH are unable to do anymore harm.harm. Martin truly is the Chosen One.
One.

[[WMG: The Red Stone contained Johnathan Jonathan Brisby's soul.]]
21st Dec '17 3:25:36 PM Ingonyama
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*** Debatable. After all, the increased intelligence could be spreading, but not the slowed aging;
* Covers both the "Why Mrs. Frisby/Brisby Had A Shorter Lifespan" and "Why No Extreme Pain Was Experienced": The pain was physically real, not a result of the neural network rewrite, and a result of the cells changing due to something in the injections that was not contagious, but would allow for inheritable increased lifespan and physical abilities. The intelligence side effect was something else in the cocktail of drugs and viruses. If it was contagious, it would only have mild flu-like or cold symptoms if anything (if thanks to the telepathy, it could have no symptoms, and Nicodemus simply didn't know of the effects). If it was not, then it could be a result of the animals being affected by their interactions with Johnathan and Mr. Ages, and indirectly through Mrs. Frisby and the children.
* While less interesting, but holds true in both is the idea that humans underestimate animal intelligence. The NIMH experiment had them thinking rats were "F" level smart when they were already "C", so with the serum they were only expecting them to get to "C" but got to "A". Which allowed them to outsmart the humans and escape. The non experimental animals show some intelligence but not really to the level the experimental ones do. But with teaching of the smarter one's they can clearly better themselves. All of this of course going straight over all the human character's heads on purpose.

to:

*** Debatable. After all, the increased intelligence could be spreading, but not the slowed aging;
aging.
* Covers both the "Why Mrs. Frisby/Brisby Had A Shorter Lifespan" and "Why No Extreme Pain Was Experienced": The pain was physically real, not a result of the neural network rewrite, and a result of the cells changing due to something in the injections that was not contagious, but would allow for inheritable increased lifespan and physical abilities. The intelligence side effect was something else in the cocktail of drugs and viruses. If it was contagious, it would only have mild flu-like or cold symptoms if anything (if thanks to the telepathy, it could have no symptoms, and Nicodemus simply didn't know of the effects). If it was not, then it could be a result of the animals being affected by their interactions with Johnathan Jonathan and Mr. Ages, and indirectly through Mrs. Frisby and the children.
* While less interesting, but holds true in both is the idea that humans underestimate animal intelligence. The NIMH experiment had them thinking rats were "F" level smart when they were already "C", so with the serum they were only expecting them to get to "C" but got to "A". Which allowed them to outsmart the humans and escape. The non experimental animals show some intelligence but not really to the level the experimental ones do. But with teaching of the smarter one's ones they can clearly better themselves. All of this of course going straight over all the human character's characters' heads on purpose.
21st Dec '17 3:22:08 PM Ingonyama
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** It was ridiculously painful. Her hands were in bandages for quite some time after she used that locket.
*** True, but that was because she was holding sternly on to the locket even as he burned into her skin, right?

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** It was ridiculously painful. Her hands were in bandages for quite some time after she used that locket.
amulet.
*** True, but that was because she was holding sternly on to the locket amulet even as he it burned into her skin, right?
19th Jul '17 5:47:54 PM Sharlee
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to:

** Better yet, Auntie Shrew may have become enhanced the same way, having ambushed and devoured a young rat that wandered away from the colony. Her enhanced smarts not only led her to wear clothes, but to gain enough control over her natural shrewish appetites to refrain from eating the mice she subsequently befriended.
28th Apr '17 2:23:21 AM ScroogeMacDuck
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[[WMG: Nicodemus made the prophecy using the scrying device from the first movie]]
That thing can't just be technological it was able to show images from NIMH times, when the rats certainly had no cameras to record all this. Thus, it must be a {{Magitek}} device built by Nicodemus, which can look anywhere in the past or present, and even see ''some'' of the future.
28th Apr '17 2:20:43 AM ScroogeMacDuck
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Added DiffLines:

** It all makes sense! I have mentally expanded that theory. The Rats' intelligence was *not*, actually, physically enhanced. However, it gave them all psychic powers, which they are only dimly aware of but made them 'pick up' the surrounding human scientists' thoughts and mutate into a form similar to their own. Nicodemus is more powerful because he already had some psychic abilities from birth, so the serum's boosting them turned him into a full-on wizard. The other animals in the field are less sensitive to the Power but respond to the rats' brainwaves all the same. Mrs Brisby is nearly as intelligent as the Rats because she spent so much time around Jonathan, whereas Jeremy or the Shrew are much dumber due to purposefully staying as far away from the Rosebush as they can.
13th Feb '17 8:05:16 AM thekeyofe
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[[WMG: The Shrew and Mr. Ages used to be friends/had some sort of past affiliation.]]

It is implied in the movie that the super-intelligent animals of NIMH are capable of educating and to a degree civilising common wild animals. The evidence for this is Mrs. Brisby who is the only "normal" animal on the farm who wears clothes, lives in a house and can read, all of which are traits belonging to the animals of NIMH and all of which (presumably) were taught to her by her husband.

The only other seemingly "normal" animal who wears clothes is the Shrew. Whilst the movie never hints at how academically proficient she is, she still seems to have intelligence on par with Mrs. Brisby. It is my theory that Mr. Ages had done to her what Jonathan Brisby did to his wife and then fell out with her, as the Shrew seems to hold nothing but contempt for the rats and Mr. Ages.

[[WMG: Nicodemus isn't psychic, or even a wizard; he's one of the [[TabletopGame/GeniusTheTransgression Inspired]].]]

The NIMH experiments were an Inspired experiment to uplift mice, and the results were just a little too good; the rats (and two mice) got away. But not only were they granted intelligence, one of the rats achieved a full-blown Catalyst and became a Genius. Only a few dots in Apokalypsi (for the memory imager) and Epikrato (for the telekinetic amulet) are necessary to explain all the supernatural elements of the film. The rats aren't moving to Thorn Valley just to become self-sufficient, they need more room away from humans to really start creating Wonders without worrying about humans noticing.

In addition to Nicodemus' Inspiration, it's possible that Jonathan Frisby Catalyzed too; Nicodemus gives the amulet to Mrs. Frisby, telling her that Jonathan wanted her to have it.

[[WMG: The Great Owl is [[Literature/TheSilmarillion Mandos]]]]

Manwë and the other Valar got pretty much insane, and somehow managing to return to the real world because of the ArtifactOfDoom Mrs Brisby/Frisby. The process in which the rats gain conscience in NIMH somehow mimiced the way the eä were given to men and the old middle-earth races, and the Valar perceived that as going against Eru's will and possibly done by corrupted Ainur, so the help provided by the owl/Mandos was all part of a plan to eliminate all the rats, mice and other sentient creatures.

[[WMG: Nicodemus warned the Great Owl in advance that Mrs. Brisby was coming.]]

He was obviously aligned with the Owl, in the manner of a powerful mage being aligned with an ancient dragon; this is why the owl didn't eat her even before he knew who she was and why she was protected in his lair. When she reveals her identity, you can almost literally see the gears turning in his head, trying to think of what was appropriate to reveal to her.

* If that was the case, he would have told her about the rats immediately after voicing her concern.

[[WMG: The Great Owl is Nicodemus]]
They look so darn similar, so TGO is a shape shifted Nicodemus. that's why he didn't eat Mrs. Brisby.
* This was pretty much Jossed; see below. Nicodemus refers to the Great Owl as a 'dear comrade', so he was obviously aligned with the Owl, but they weren't one and the same.
* Creators did this for fun, to add more mystery than the poor movie could hold [[http://www.adammcdaniel.com/DonBluth/Don_Bluth_Interview3.htm ZOMG sause]]

[[WMG: The story ''could'' be set in the world of Franchise/AssassinsCreed]]

''Obviously, I don't believe this is true, but it's possible.''

Think about it; how would an injection suddenly give the rats the ability to read? NIMH could very well just be a wing of Abstergo doing animal research on implanting GeneticMemory; in this case, giving non-humans the ability to read by implanting them with human memories. The amulet could also be a portion of one of the Pieces of Eden (Probably a piece they salvaged from the one that was destroyed), which would explain its unusual powers. Abstergo had it at NIMH (Maybe to test its effects on the animals or something), the rats found it while they were escaping, and, figuring it was special somehow, brought it with them. Could overlap with the theory about the injection being contagious if a viral vector was used to implant the genetic memories.

* As far as the rats having the ability to read, only Nicodemus demonstrated that ability- kind of justifiable considering he's psychic. But otherwise, it's a pretty good theory.

[[WMG: The scientists were trying to make an true intellegence boosting drug.]]
* They always seemed a bit...dodgy, because generally lab rats are pet rats, not wild ones. So they must have not wanted any one knowing one knowing what they were doing. They were not trying to produce a memory or learning drug, but one which may harshly seperate humans with the drug to those without, like the normal rats from the NIMH rats.

[[WMG: The Secret of NIMH happens in the same world as the old Land of Giants TV Show.]]
* I just can't get this idea out of my head. It explains why such small animals as mice and rats have human level intelligence -- they are human size, it's the world AROUND them that's oversized. And the treatments at NIMH? They gave the rats a mental boost, but not as much as you'd think. If humans from the "normal" world got there, they'd find themselves the same size as Mrs. Brisby and Justin and the rest... and probably chased by NIMH as well.
** Wait...why would being human-size give the rats human intelligence levels?
** that would give them just about human-sized brains as well.

[[WMG: The reason Mrs. Brisby isn't given a first name is because she had no name prior to meeting Jonathan.]]
* Naming conventions are just something the rats of NIMH picked up from humans. Johnathan wanted his children to have names so that's why they have them.

** That doesn't explain Jeremy.

[[WMG: At least one more mouse of NIMH survived and became one of [[WesternAnimation/ChipNDaleRescueRangers Gadget Hackwrench]]'s parents.]]
* Think about it. The nine mice of NIMH that didn't make it through the air vents were ''officially pronounced'' dead because those who escaped to Fitzgibbons' farm [[NeverFoundTheBody didn't have the time to retrieve their corpses and confirm their deaths]]. At least one got away alive but unseen by the official group and had a family afterwards. [[LamarckWasRight This also explains Gadget's way-above-average IQ]].
** Its been suggested that her immediate father, Geegaw, was that mouse. He not only survived the air vent trip, but ''loved'' the experience and took up flying because of it.


[[WMG: This movie, ''An American Tail'', ''The Land Before Time'' and ''All Dogs Go To Heaven'' take place in the same universe, and form a loose quadrilogy.]]
* It is unclear when exactly the film takes place, but ''An American Tail'' takes place in 1885 and ''All Dogs Go To Heaven'' takes place in 1939. It is possible that the film takes place somewhere in between those two movies. Because the more intelligent cats were sent away in ''Tail'' it may explain why Dragon behaves so animalistically, and it will also explain why animal intelligence is so common in ''Dogs''. At the very least, it is a nice thought.
** However the sequels may also be taken into account, in which case this theory falls apart.
** [[FanonDiscontinuity Would you really miss them if you were to follow this theory]]? Basically, it requires you to do that, and it is made easier by the fact that Creator/DonBluth didn't make the sequels. So this theory ''may'' still work when taking that stand.
** Animal intelligence was already common in ''Tail'', and the human technology in this film doesn't look like it was available in the thirties.

[[WMG: While at the Institute, the rats experience a MushroomSamba that is the events of ''Anime/PuellaMagiMadokaMagica''.]]
They come to telepathically "connect" (hence the anime's OP song) with the human scientists injecting them with all kinds of psychoactive drugs and somewhat realize their situation with heightened intelligence, hence the reason for some rats' escape.

The "Witches" were horrific hallucinations brought on both by the drugs and by incomplete "readings" of the various scientists' minds. For instance, Charlotte was inspired by one scientist thinking he should get some more baby mice to feed his pet snake, and Uhrmann [[TearJerker was actually a dog in the lab, wondering why the]] [[HumansAreCthulhu scientists were doing all these horrible things to her]]. Kyubey was a BrokenBird rat who sensed that humans tend to regard rats as vermin, and hence believed that the other rats should willingly sacrifice themselves to the humans' experiments. As to why they imagined themselves as Japanese anime characters? One of the chief NIMH researchers was originally from Japan, and a MagicalGirl anime fan. (Madoka herself bore some resemblance to classic Magical Girl [[Anime/MagicalPrincessMinkyMomo Minky Momo]], which incidentally also came out in 1982.)

The enlightened rats obviously had quite the metaphysical dilemma, considering that [[DoesThisRemindYouOfAnything the humans also feed and water them and clean their cage]]. This dilemma eventually fueled Justin (wants to live completely independent from the humans) and Jenner's (wants to continue siphoning energy from the humans, at the risk of their cats and tractors) fight.

[[WMG: Mr.Ages' first name begins with a "J"]]
Most of the guys who played key roles in the story had names beginning with "J", ex. Jonathon,Jeremy,etc.So,why not Mr.Ages?He was pretty helpful to the plot.I personally think it's Jacob...
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