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Changed line(s) 329,336 (click to see context) from:
The only ones who knew about the train job, which lawmen swiftly showed up to despite the train being in the middle of nowhere, were Uncle, Charles, John, Arthur, Sean and Mary-Beth.
Mary-Beth also calls out Arthur for not helping the man with the stagecoach and is disturbed, showing a distaste for his ruthlessness.
Mary-Beth, Karen, Jack, Trelawny and Molly are the only members absent from camp during the Lakay shootout. Trelawny is usually away from camp to visit his family or run some scam. Molly was out drinking and considering Karen's alcoholism at that point, she probably was too. That leaves Mary-Beth and Jack. Mary-Beth could have tagged along drinking with Karen or took Jack out shopping so he [[WouldNotHurtAChild won't be hurt in the shootout]].
Mary-Beth's defence of Molly after her death could be out of guilt and/or a case of ProppingUpTheirPatsy. She leaves the gang right before the Pinkertons kidnapped Jack. Years later, she’s made a living off her awful books.
Mary-Beth also calls out Arthur for not helping the man with the stagecoach and is disturbed, showing a distaste for his ruthlessness.
Mary-Beth, Karen, Jack, Trelawny and Molly are the only members absent from camp during the Lakay shootout. Trelawny is usually away from camp to visit his family or run some scam. Molly was out drinking and considering Karen's alcoholism at that point, she probably was too. That leaves Mary-Beth and Jack. Mary-Beth could have tagged along drinking with Karen or took Jack out shopping so he [[WouldNotHurtAChild won't be hurt in the shootout]].
Mary-Beth's defence of Molly after her death could be out of guilt and/or a case of ProppingUpTheirPatsy. She leaves the gang right before the Pinkertons kidnapped Jack. Years later, she’s made a living off her awful books.
to:
In Chapter 2, Charles, John, Arthur and Sean take part in a train robbery in the middle of nowhere, when lawmen swiftly show up. The only ones who knew about the train job, which lawmen swiftly showed up to despite job were the train being four robbers, Uncle and Mary-Beth, who was the one who found the tip in the middle first place.
It's possible that instead ofnowhere, were Uncle, Charles, John, Arthur, Sean and Mary-Beth.
cowardice or greed, or in addition to those motives, Mary-Beth also turned on the gang out of remorse for all the senseless murders they commit. Mary-Beth calls out Arthur for not helping the man with the stagecoach and is disturbed, disturbed when he further threatens him, showing a distaste for his ruthlessness.
ruthlessness. Mary-Beth is also one of the only gang members to treat Kieran decently, and is heartbroken by his death while the rest of the gang dismissed him. Her talk to Arthur in "No, No and Thrice, No" about how the gang took her in is also a little awkward sounding as though she was laying it on thick.
Mary-Beth, Karen, Jack, Trelawny and Molly are the only members absent from camp during the Lakay shootout. Trelawny is usually away from camp to visit his family or run some scam. Molly was out drinking and considering Karen's alcoholism at that point, she probably was too. That leaves Mary-Beth and Jack. Mary-Beth could have tagged along drinking with Karen or took Jack out shopping so he [[WouldNotHurtAChild won't be hurt in theshootout]].
shootout]]. Mary-Beth's defence of Molly after her death could be out of guilt and/or a case of ProppingUpTheirPatsy. She ProppingUpTheirPatsy. Mary-Beth also leaves the gang right before the Pinkertons kidnapped Jack. Years later, she’s made a living off her awful books.
kidnap Jack and storm the camp.
It's possible that instead of
Mary-Beth, Karen, Jack, Trelawny and Molly are the only members absent from camp during the Lakay shootout. Trelawny is usually away from camp to visit his family or run some scam. Molly was out drinking and considering Karen's alcoholism at that point, she probably was too. That leaves Mary-Beth and Jack. Mary-Beth could have tagged along drinking with Karen or took Jack out shopping so he [[WouldNotHurtAChild won't be hurt in the
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Karen followed Mary-Beth and saw her talking with the Pinkertons. To stop her from talking, Mary-Beth killed her and buried the body. She deserted the gang shortly after to avoid suspicion.
to:
Karen followed Mary-Beth and saw her talking with the Pinkertons. To stop her from talking, Mary-Beth killed her and buried the body. She deserted the gang shortly after to avoid suspicion.
suspicion in case they notice her showing signs of guilt over murdering her friend. Dutch mentions that while he knows that Uncle and Pearson left the camp and told Tilly why, he only "thinks" Mary-Beth left as well, meaning she may not have spoken to Tilly or may not even have returned to camp after killing Karen.
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[[WMG: Sadie Adler is a [[CorruptedCharacterCopy twisted take]] on [[Franchise/SherlockHolmes Irene Adler]].]]
Names aside, in the original story that introduced Irene, she was a simple civilian woman who suddenly found herself committing risky criminal acts for the sake of her love and ended up proving herself a rare talent in that field, to the point of impressing the protagonist. Of course, there are some...''considerable'' differences between her and Sadie's stories, mostly for the worst in Sadie's case.
Names aside, in the original story that introduced Irene, she was a simple civilian woman who suddenly found herself committing risky criminal acts for the sake of her love and ended up proving herself a rare talent in that field, to the point of impressing the protagonist. Of course, there are some...''considerable'' differences between her and Sadie's stories, mostly for the worst in Sadie's case.
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[[WMG: Sadie was captured by the FBI, forced to hunt Bill, Javier or Dutch and failed miserably]]
Promised her freedom and the freedom of the Marstons, she tried the “Bill, you son of a bitch! Get down here or-(shot dead)” method of negotiation.
* Alternatively, she may have been caught by the FBI, but killed herself to avoid being interrogated.
Promised her freedom and the freedom of the Marstons, she tried the “Bill, you son of a bitch! Get down here or-(shot dead)” method of negotiation.
* Alternatively, she may have been caught by the FBI, but killed herself to avoid being interrogated.
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She certainly can’t afford him and it’s unlikely such a fine horse
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She takes to the outlaw life like a duck to water and she’s highly aggressive and violent. She’s introduced carrying a rifle. She may have run with some outlaws before she settled down with Jake. O’Driscolls didn’t know what Hell they unleashed.
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Even before Jake’s death she was aggressive and untrustworthy.
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Firstly, Arthur collapses somewhere in the mountains near the Wapiti reservation, but when the German family find him, he ends up in Annesburg. A very large distance, and a pretty unsuitable area especially considering Arthur is likely wanted there.
to:
Firstly, Arthur collapses somewhere in the mountains near the Wapiti reservation, but when the German family find him, he ends up in Annesburg. A very large distance, distance to cover, and a pretty unsuitable area especially considering Arthur is likely wanted there.
So Arthur has a fever dream after he collapses. He takes part in a train heist, imagines Micah as the rat, has an epic battle with him. He gets to wrap everything up, save the Marstons, have Micah die and makes a few depressing predictions on John and Jack.
In real life, Arthur succumbs to tuberculosis and dies after about 20 minutes. Maybe Charles and the natives find him and bury him somewhere nice. The Marstons ditch the gang and Dutch, Micah and Sadie continue to rob and kill for a few years before the Pinkertons kill them all.
So Arthur has a fever dream after he collapses. He takes part in a train heist, imagines Micah as the rat, has an epic battle with him. He gets to wrap everything up, save the Marstons, have Micah die and makes a few depressing predictions on John and Jack.
In real life, Arthur succumbs to tuberculosis and dies after about 20 minutes. Maybe Charles and the natives find him and bury him somewhere nice. The Marstons ditch the gang and Dutch, Micah and Sadie continue to rob and kill for a few years before the Pinkertons kill them all.
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Changed line(s) 328,329 (click to see context) from:
Mary-Beth's defence of Molly after her death could be out of guilt and/or a case of ProppingUpTheirPatsy. Either way, she leaves the gang shortly after.
to:
Mary-Beth's defence of Molly after her death could be out of guilt and/or a case of ProppingUpTheirPatsy. Either way, she She leaves the gang right before the Pinkertons kidnapped Jack. Years later, she’s made a living off her awful books.
Bonus theory:
[[WMG: Mary-Beth killed Karen]]
Karen followed Mary-Beth and saw her talking with the Pinkertons. To stop her from talking, Mary-Beth killed her and buried the body. She deserted the gang shortlyafter.
after to avoid suspicion.
Bonus theory:
[[WMG: Mary-Beth killed Karen]]
Karen followed Mary-Beth and saw her talking with the Pinkertons. To stop her from talking, Mary-Beth killed her and buried the body. She deserted the gang shortly
Also worth noting is the game files mention something about an Adler Family Ranch, implying Sadie’s parents were killed rather than her husband.
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This sounds like your run-of-the-mill DyingDream theory, and probably has to ignore all the side missions that could be completed.
Firstly, Arthur collapses somewhere in the mountains near the Wapiti reservation, but when the German family find him, he ends up in Annesburg. A very large distance, and a pretty unsuitable area especially considering Arthur is likely wanted there.
Firstly, Arthur collapses somewhere in the mountains near the Wapiti reservation, but when the German family find him, he ends up in Annesburg. A very large distance, and a pretty unsuitable area especially considering Arthur is likely wanted there.
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[[WMG: Arthur died of tuberculosis at the end of "My Last Boy"; the rest of the game and RDR1 was a DyingDream]]
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[[WMG:John's comments about the gang in the first game were a JediTruth]]
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[[WMG:John's comments about the gang in the first game were a JediTruth]]
MetaphoricallyTrue]]
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[[WMG: Sadie was originally written as a child or a teenager]]
That’s why she was such an impulsive, temperamental brat. That’s why she was so heavily influenced into violence by the gang. That’s why she has no romance with anyone in the gang. That’s why her mistakes and flaws are so quickly forgiven and glossed over by both the gang and the game. She was just a horribly traumatised child who lost everything and everyone she loved and attached herself to the worst people possible afterwards.
That’s why she was such an impulsive, temperamental brat. That’s why she was so heavily influenced into violence by the gang. That’s why she has no romance with anyone in the gang. That’s why her mistakes and flaws are so quickly forgiven and glossed over by both the gang and the game. She was just a horribly traumatised child who lost everything and everyone she loved and attached herself to the worst people possible afterwards.
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Changed line(s) 320,323 (click to see context) from:
Rockstar describes MB as "A kind, good-natured young woman, which makes her the perfect criminal. By the time people realize they’ve been duped, Mary-Beth is already on her way home with the money."
The only ones who knew about the train job were Uncle, Charles, John, Arthur, Sean and Mary-Beth.
The only ones who knew about the train job were Uncle, Charles, John, Arthur, Sean and Mary-Beth.
to:
Rockstar describes MB as "A kind, good-natured young woman, which makes her the perfect criminal. By the time people realize they’ve been duped, Mary-Beth is already on her way home with the money."
" Not a very shining display of moral character there.
The only ones who knew about the trainjob job, which lawmen swiftly showed up to despite the train being in the middle of nowhere, were Uncle, Charles, John, Arthur, Sean and Mary-Beth.
The only ones who knew about the train
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Mary-Beth's defence of Molly after her death could be out of guilt and/or a case of ProppingUpTheirPatsy.
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Mary-Beth's defence of Molly after her death could be out of guilt and/or a case of ProppingUpTheirPatsy.
ProppingUpTheirPatsy. Either way, she leaves the gang shortly after.
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[[WMG: Mary-Beth was the rat]]
Rockstar describes MB as "A kind, good-natured young woman, which makes her the perfect criminal. By the time people realize they’ve been duped, Mary-Beth is already on her way home with the money."
The only ones who knew about the train job were Uncle, Charles, John, Arthur, Sean and Mary-Beth.
Mary-Beth also calls out Arthur for not helping the man with the stagecoach and is disturbed, showing a distaste for his ruthlessness.
Mary-Beth, Karen, Jack, Trelawny and Molly are the only members absent from camp during the Lakay shootout. Trelawny is usually away from camp to visit his family or run some scam. Molly was out drinking and considering Karen's alcoholism at that point, she probably was too. That leaves Mary-Beth and Jack. Mary-Beth could have tagged along drinking with Karen or took Jack out shopping so he [[WouldNotHurtAChild won't be hurt in the shootout]].
Mary-Beth's defence of Molly after her death could be out of guilt and/or a case of ProppingUpTheirPatsy.
Rockstar describes MB as "A kind, good-natured young woman, which makes her the perfect criminal. By the time people realize they’ve been duped, Mary-Beth is already on her way home with the money."
The only ones who knew about the train job were Uncle, Charles, John, Arthur, Sean and Mary-Beth.
Mary-Beth also calls out Arthur for not helping the man with the stagecoach and is disturbed, showing a distaste for his ruthlessness.
Mary-Beth, Karen, Jack, Trelawny and Molly are the only members absent from camp during the Lakay shootout. Trelawny is usually away from camp to visit his family or run some scam. Molly was out drinking and considering Karen's alcoholism at that point, she probably was too. That leaves Mary-Beth and Jack. Mary-Beth could have tagged along drinking with Karen or took Jack out shopping so he [[WouldNotHurtAChild won't be hurt in the shootout]].
Mary-Beth's defence of Molly after her death could be out of guilt and/or a case of ProppingUpTheirPatsy.
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[[WMG: Sadie was killed by Jack Marston]]
As MisplacedRetribution for leading the raid on Micah's hideout that led to his father's death.
As MisplacedRetribution for leading the raid on Micah's hideout that led to his father's death.
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[[WMG: Jack defected to the Central Powers during WWI]]
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Milton claims that Micah only started informing on the gang after he got back from Guarma, however the gang's troubles go all the way back to before the game even started, with Dutch heavily implying that Blackwater seemed like a setup. Later on, the train job put together by John is also ambushed by the law and it's confirmed via newspapers that the law were tipped off. Arthur and John obviously aren't the rats, and Charles would be unlikely do so either, so who does that leave? None other than Sean MacGuire.
to:
Milton claims that Micah only started informing on the gang after he got back from Guarma, however the gang's troubles go all the way back to before the game even started, with Dutch heavily implying that Blackwater seemed like a setup. Later on, the train job put together by John is also ambushed by the law and it's confirmed via newspapers that the law were tipped off. Arthur and John obviously aren't the rats, and Charles would be unlikely do so either, so who does that leave? None other than Sean MacGuire.
[=MacGuire=].
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[[WMG: There was more than one rat, and neither of them was Micah]]
Milton claims that Micah only started informing on the gang after he got back from Guarma, however the gang's troubles go all the way back to before the game even started, with Dutch heavily implying that Blackwater seemed like a setup. Later on, the train job put together by John is also ambushed by the law and it's confirmed via newspapers that the law were tipped off. Arthur and John obviously aren't the rats, and Charles would be unlikely do so either, so who does that leave? None other than Sean MacGuire.
After the Blackwater job goes sour, Sean and Mac get separated from the gang. Milton says that Mac was gravely wounded in the ensuing chaos and eventually killed when the Pinkertons caught up to him. Sean, who has been shown to be lacking in shooting skills, somehow manages to survive despite being separated from the group. He does end up captured, although that can be explained away as two things. Since it was a group of bounty hunters, it's possible they captured him without realizing the person they just caught was actually working for the government. Second, the Pinkertons and Sean may have worked out a deal with Ike Skelding's group, where they would use Sean as bait to lure in the gang.
The train job was initially supposed to just be Arthur, John and Charles. Sean ends up catching wind of it and talks Arthur into allowing him to participate. This job happens (or at least, CAN happen) before Micah is even back in camp, so it's impossible for him to have been the rat in this instance. As previously stated, it's confirmed that the law was tipped off to this job, so someone had to be an informant. In his later companion activity, Sean also denies having told the bounty hunters anything, nearly unprovoked. Granted, prior to this Arthur brought up his penchant for being knocked out at jobs, so Sean was likely getting ahead of it in the event Arthur had suspicions. The fact that he kept getting "knocked out" at these jobs just adds more fuel to the theory though.
Later on in the story, the bank job in Saint Denis seems to have also been a setup. By this point in the story, Sean obviously couldn't have had any part in that due to his demise happening long before the heist is even thought of. So who could have done it? Well, that's where the second rat comes in: Karen Jones. After Sean's demise, Karen begins drinking heavily, and throughout the remainder of the story Karen's decline is noted by several characters. After the camp is attacked by O'Driscolls, couple with Sean's death, Karen may have finally had enough and decided to turn on the gang herself out of fear for her own life.
In addition to the change in character following Sean's death, Karen is also notably absent from the camp not long before the end of Arthur's story. Her disappearance from Beaver Hollow before the Pinkertons descend upon it is easy to chalk up to her abandoning the gang like a few others did around the same time, except for one key fact. This isn't her first time being absent right before the camp was attacked: Karen is one of the few people missing when the gang are tracked down in Lakay.
As for why Milton would lie about Micah being the rat, it's possible he was trying to sew further dissent in the event Arthur, Sadie or Abigail were able to get back to the gang. If that's the case, it sure did work.
[[WMG: Mac actually survived]]
Milton was just saying they killed him because he was trying to provoke Arthur, either into attacking him then and there or going back to Dutch to plan some kind of revenge mission. If he turns out to be the protagonist of Red Dead Redemption 3 as some are speculating, his fate will be a case of BaitAndSwitch, where everyone is expecting him to continue the tradition of a protagonist dying, but it will turn out he simply fled from the gang. Perhaps he initially tried to lay low for a bit, then tried to catch up with the gang, only to discover that his brother had died, which resulted in him deciding to abandon the group.
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[[WMG: Bray and Tammy Aberdeen aren't related]]
They just have a very intense incest fetish.
They just have a very intense incest fetish.
[[WMG: Black Belle was eventually killed by her son/daughter]]
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He happened to be at Colter at the same time, he's already an established rapist and Sadie knows him and violently despises him.
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He happened to be at Colter at the same time, he's already an established to be a rapist and Sadie knows him who he is and violently despises him.
Changed line(s) 270,271 (click to see context) from:
Realising that the gang was doing nothing but spreading pain, murder and destruction everywhere they went, he decided to help the Pinkertons bring them down. Either his redemption didn’t stick or the Pinkertons betrayed him afterwards.
to:
Realising that the gang was doing nothing but spreading pain, murder and destruction everywhere they went, he decided to help the Pinkertons bring them down. Either his His redemption didn’t stick or the Pinkertons betrayed him afterwards.
stick, obviously.
Changed line(s) 275,276 (click to see context) from:
[[WMG: Pearson added [[TheSecretOfLongPorkPies flesh from Davey's corpse]] into the stew he fed to the gang in Colter.]]
to:
[[WMG: Pearson added [[TheSecretOfLongPorkPies flesh from Davey's corpse]] into the stew he fed to the gang in Colter.]]
Changed line(s) 288,289 (click to see context) from:
Believing the gang may come after him, he made up the story about being captured by Pinkertons and nobly dying without snitching before fleeing North or back to Austria. He may also have turned rat to the Pinkertons in revenge for [[MistreatmentInducedBetrayal Arthur banishing him]].
to:
Believing Arthur and the gang may come after him to silence him or further punish him, he made up the elaborately fabricated a story about being captured by Pinkertons and nobly dying without snitching before fleeing North further north or back to Austria. He may also have turned rat to the Pinkertons in revenge for [[MistreatmentInducedBetrayal Arthur banishing him]].
[[WMG: Sadie was an outlaw before she settled down with Jake]]
[[WMG: Sadie was abused as a child]]
[[WMG: Sadie was abused as a child]]
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His Low Honor version may go down as "the Coyote".
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[[WMG: Arthur went down in history as "Black Lung Morgan"]]
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Changed line(s) 290,291 (click to see context) from:
[[WMG: Sadie's horse Bob was a gift to her from Dutch or Hosea]]
to:
[[WMG: Sadie's horse Bob was a gift to her from previously owned by Dutch or Hosea]]
Hosea and given to her as a gift]]
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[[WMG: Sadie's horse Bob was a gift to her from Dutch or Hosea]]
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[[WMG: Strauss faked his death]]
Believing the gang may come after him, he made up the story about being captured by Pinkertons and nobly dying without snitching before fleeing North or back to Austria. He may also have turned rat to the Pinkertons in revenge for [[MistreatmentInducedBetrayal Arthur banishing him]].
Believing the gang may come after him, he made up the story about being captured by Pinkertons and nobly dying without snitching before fleeing North or back to Austria. He may also have turned rat to the Pinkertons in revenge for [[MistreatmentInducedBetrayal Arthur banishing him]].
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[[WMG: Mary and/or Jamie murdered their father]]
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[[WMG: Charles turned Arthur's body in for his bounty; his grave is empty]]
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[[WMG: Charles turned Arthur's body corpse in for his bounty; his grave is empty]]
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[[WMG: Charles turned Arthur's body in for his bounty; his grave is empty]]
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[[WMG: Bill was originally written to fill Micah's role]]
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[[WMG: Pearson added [[TheSecretOfLongPorkPies flesh from Davey's corpse]] into the stew he fed to the gang in Colter.]]]
to:
[[WMG: Pearson added [[TheSecretOfLongPorkPies flesh from Davey's corpse]] into the stew he fed to the gang in Colter.]]]
]]
[[WMG: Jack defected to the Central Powers during WWI]]
[[WMG: Jack defected to the Central Powers during WWI]]
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[[WMG: Pearson added [[TheSecretOfLongPorkPies flesh from Davey's corpse]] into the stew he fed to the gang in Colter.]]]
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Realising that the gang was doing nothing but spreading pain, murder and destruction everywhere they went, he decided to help the Pinkertons bring them down. Either his redemption didn’t stick or the Pinkertons betrayed him afterwards.
[[WMG: Sadie was DrivenToSuicide after hearing about John’s death]]
Due to blaming herself for leading the FBI to him.
[[WMG: Sadie was DrivenToSuicide after hearing about John’s death]]
Due to blaming herself for leading the FBI to him.
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[[WMG: Micah snitched to the Pinkertons in a short-lived effort to redeem himself]]
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[[WMG: Agent Milton was related to Heidi [=McCourt=]]]
Possibly as her brother, uncle or cousin. His vendetta against the Van der Linde gang was personal and drove him to extremes to destroy them.
Possibly as her brother, uncle or cousin. His vendetta against the Van der Linde gang was personal and drove him to extremes to destroy them.
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[[WMG: Colm personally raped Sadie at her cabin]]
He happened to be at Colter at the same time, he's already an established rapist and Sadie knows him and violently despises him.
He happened to be at Colter at the same time, he's already an established rapist and Sadie knows him and violently despises him.
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[[WMG: Sadie was eventually killed by Cleet's son/daughter]]
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[[WMG: Adding on to the above theory, Micah's pistols were passed down to him from his father]]
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Molly's death clued him in that the Gang was collapsing and it's best to escape.
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Molly's death clued him in that the Gang was collapsing going to crap and it's best to escape.
cut loose and make a deal with Milton.
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Uncle was the one who introduced Abigail to the gang, back when she was a prostitute. Knowing Uncle, he damn well may have met her on a "professional" basis. Which would also explain some of her distain for him later on, since she may well think that he might one day try to hold that against her.
to:
Uncle was the one who introduced Abigail to the gang, back when she was a prostitute. Knowing Uncle, he damn well may have met her on a "professional" basis. Which would also explain some of her distain disdain for him later on, since she may well think that he might one day try to hold that against her.
