History UsefulNotes / TheBechdelTest

30th Nov '16 7:09:40 AM crazysamaritan
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# ''about something other than a man or men''.[[note]] The exact interpretation of this can vary; some feel that it's okay to mention a man or men so long as they're not the primary subject of the conversation--e.g.: two businesswomen are talking about the next move for their firm, and one casually mentions what their (male) lawyer says about something or other--while others will demand a conversation where men aren't mentioned '''at all'''. Some make the addendum that the conversation also cannot reference marriage, babies, or romance--although these often also have a caveat where it's OK if the marriage, baby, or romance is (1) someone else's and (2) purely a subject of professional interest (e.g. the women are family lawyers and the marriage is that of a client, or the women are medical professionals and the baby is a patient). There is, after all, a big difference between "Isn't married life hard/wonderful!" and "Babies are so cute, I wish I had one!" on the one hand, and "OK, so I think this is how we should go about the Madison property settlement" and "Don't give that medicine to the baby, it'll kill him!" on the other.[[/note]]

to:

# ''about something other than a man or men''.[[note]] The exact interpretation of this can vary; some feel that it's okay to mention a man or men so long as they're not the primary subject of the conversation--e.g.: two businesswomen are talking about the next move for their firm, and one casually mentions what their (male) lawyer says about something or other--while others will demand a conversation where men aren't mentioned '''at all'''. Some make the An addendum some claim is that the conversation also cannot reference marriage, babies, or romance--although these often also have a caveat where it's OK if the marriage, baby, or romance are indirectly about men and therefore also fail, whereas some relax the rule based on the following criteria; the relationship is (1) someone else's and (2) purely a subject of professional interest (e.g. the women are family lawyers and the marriage is that of a client, or the women are medical professionals and the baby is a patient). There is, after all, Proponents of both point out there is a big difference between "Isn't married life hard/wonderful!" and & "Babies are so cute, I wish I had one!" on the one hand, and "OK, so I think this is how we should go about the Madison property settlement" and & "Don't give that medicine to the baby, it'll kill him!" on the other.[[/note]]



This is because the Bechdel Test is ''not'' meant to give a scorecard of a work's overall level of feminism. It is entirely possible for a film to pass without having overt feminist themes; in fact, the original example of a movie that passes is ''Film/{{Alien}}'', which, while it has feminist subtexts, is mostly just a sci-fi/action/horror flick. A movie can easily pass the Bechdel Test and still be incredibly misogynistic. For instance, the infamously bad ''Film/ManosTheHandsOfFate'' passes the test, but its treatment of women is incredibly {{squick}}y. So does The Bikini Carwash Company, which is little more than tasteless pandering. Conversely, it's also possible for a story to fail the test and still be strongly feminist in other ways (for instance ''Mulan''; or ''Film/PacificRim'' and its spinoff "Mako Mori Test", discussed in the "Web Originals" section below). There's nothing necessarily wrong with a feminist film flunking the Bechdel Test. What's a problem is that it becomes a pattern when ''so many'' movies fail the test, while very few show male characters whose lives seem to revolve around women, that says [[UnfortunateImplications uncomfortable things]] about the way Hollywood handles gender. There are also lesser-known variations of the test, such as the [[UsefulNotes/DeggansRule Race Bechdel Test]], in which two characters of color talk about anything other than the white leads, and the Reverse Bechdel Test, [[GenderFlip with the roles of men and women swapped]].

Now, by limiting yourself to shows/movies that pass the test, you'd be cutting out a ''lot'' of otherwise-worthy entertainment; indeed, a fair number of top-notch works have legitimate reasons for [[ChromosomeCasting including no women]] (e.g. ones set in [[Film/TheShawshankRedemption a men's prison]], or on [[Film/DasBoot a WWII military submarine]], or [[Film/TwelveAngryMen back when only men served on juries]][[note]] Since jury selection is tied to voting registration, and since the play is set after passage of the 19th Amendment, the jury ''could'' have had women. Gender/ethnic balance wasn't a standard expectation then, though, and truth be told all-male and all-female juries aren't terribly uncommon.[[/note]]), or [[WesternAnimation/TheTripletsOfBelleville with no conversations at all]], or having only one or [[Film/MyDinnerWithAndre two characters]]. If it's a romantic comedy about a man and a woman, then it's justified that the female characters would talk about men and romance. [[http://www.passthebechdeltest.com/faq The reverse test isn't really an issue itself]] as an estimated 90% of movies pass it. It may only be interesting in comparison to the original test since it shows how the concept of the movie/ work altogether deals with gender regarding same gender relationships.

But all that's the point; the majority of fiction created today, for whatever reason, seems to think women aren't worth portraying except in relation to men. Things have changed since the test was first formulated (the strip in which it was originally suggested was written in 1985), but [[MostWritersAreMale Hollywood]] still needs to be prodded to use something other than TheSmurfettePrinciple.

With the recent push for diversity and the unfortunate attempts to stifle said movement, the film ''Film/MadMaxFuryRoad'' has added the "Furiosa Test" to the ranks for how badly it angered misogynists (see the WebOriginal folder).

It's obviously easier for a TV series, especially one with an EnsembleCast, to pass this test than a film, because there's far more time for the conversation to occur in. To compensate for this, Bechdel-inspired analyses of television often look episode-by-episode, giving an final average (such as 7/13 if seven episodes pass in a 13 episode season,) or compare the series' passing Bechdel's Test with its passing a "reverse Bechdel test" (even without such compensation, it's often surprising to notice how long it takes many TV shows to pass). Another tactic would be the probability that a typical two-hour collection of episodes would pass.

Compare TheSmurfettePrinciple. Works that follow TheSmurfettePrinciple include a female character strictly for demographic appeal but make no real attempt to treat her as an interesting character in her own right, outside of her relationships with the male characters. See also NeverASelfMadeWoman, which shows that even a well rounded female character with her own goals is most often only relevant to the story by her relationship to a man. Finally, see TokenRomance and RomanticPlotTumor for the effects of Hollywood's belief that both male and female audiences are generally uninterested in female characters except in the context of romance with a male character. See also UsefulNotes/DeggansRule, which is a similar rule regarding race.

For other tropes regarding the representation of gender in media, see GenderEqualEnsemble (self-explanatory) and ChromosomeCasting (works featuring only male characters or only female, but not both).

to:

This is because the Bechdel Test is ''not'' meant to give as a scorecard moral or ethical judgement on the quality of female characters in a work's overall level of feminism. work. It is entirely possible for a film to pass without having overt feminist themes; in pro-feminist themes, or even characterizing females positively.
For instance, ''Film/ManosTheHandsOfFate'' and ''The Bikini Carwash Company'', films whose treatment of women range from incredibly {{squick}}y to tasteless {{fanservice}}, have passed the test. In
fact, the original example of a movie that passes is ''Film/{{Alien}}'', which, while it has feminist subtexts, is mostly just a sci-fi/action/horror flick. A movie can easily pass the Bechdel Test and still be incredibly misogynistic. For instance, the infamously bad ''Film/ManosTheHandsOfFate'' passes the test, but its treatment of women is incredibly {{squick}}y. So does The Bikini Carwash Company, which is little more than tasteless pandering. Conversely, it's also possible for a story to fail the test and still be strongly feminist in other ways (for instance ''Mulan''; or ''Film/PacificRim'' and its spinoff "Mako Mori Test", discussed in the "Web Originals" section below). There's nothing necessarily wrong with a feminist any film flunking the Bechdel Test. A fair number of top-notch works have legitimate reasons for [[ChromosomeCasting including no women]]. What's a problem is that it becomes a pattern when ''so many'' movies fail the test, while very few show male characters whose lives seem to revolve around women, that creating a pattern which says [[UnfortunateImplications uncomfortable things]] about the way Hollywood handles gender. gender.

There are also lesser-known variations of the test, such as the [[UsefulNotes/DeggansRule UsefulNotes/DeggansRule (aka Race Bechdel Test]], Test), in which two characters of color talk about anything other than the white leads, and the Reverse Bechdel Test, [[GenderFlip with the roles of men and women swapped]].

Now, by limiting yourself to shows/movies that
swapped]].[[note]]An estimated 90% of works pass the test, you'd be cutting out a ''lot'' of otherwise-worthy entertainment; indeed, a fair number of top-notch works have legitimate reasons for [[ChromosomeCasting including no women]] (e.g. ones set in [[Film/TheShawshankRedemption a men's prison]], or on [[Film/DasBoot a WWII military submarine]], or [[Film/TwelveAngryMen back when only men served on juries]][[note]] Since jury selection is tied to voting registration, and since the play is set after passage of the 19th Amendment, the jury ''could'' have had women. Gender/ethnic balance wasn't a standard expectation then, though, and truth be told all-male and all-female juries aren't terribly uncommon.[[/note]]), or [[WesternAnimation/TheTripletsOfBelleville with no conversations at all]], or having only one or [[Film/MyDinnerWithAndre two characters]]. If it's a romantic comedy about a man and a woman, then it's justified that the female characters would talk about men and romance. Reverse Bechdel Test, [[http://www.passthebechdeltest.com/faq The reverse test isn't really an issue itself]] as an estimated 90% of movies pass it. It may only be interesting according to this link]], which, in comparison to the original test since it shows how Bechdel Test, highlights the concept of the movie/ work altogether deals with gender regarding same gender relationships.

But all that's the point; the majority of fiction created today, for whatever reason, seems to think women aren't worth portraying except in relation to men. Things have changed since the test was first formulated (the strip in which it was originally suggested was written in 1985), but [[MostWritersAreMale Hollywood]] still needs to be prodded to use something other than TheSmurfettePrinciple.

With the recent push for diversity and the unfortunate attempts to stifle said movement, the
disparity problems.[[/note]] The film ''Film/MadMaxFuryRoad'' has added inspired the "Furiosa Test" to the ranks for how badly it angered ([[https://twitter.com/photopuck/status/607259980631273473 Do any misogynists (see ban this work?]]) and ''Film/PacificRim'' inspired the WebOriginal folder).

"Mako Mori Test" ([[http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/8695-Blecch-Dull-Tests Does a female lead]] get a CharacterArc that doesn't revolve around male characters?).

It's obviously easier for a TV series, especially one with an EnsembleCast, to pass this test than a film, because there's far more time for the conversation to occur in. To compensate for this, Bechdel-inspired analyses of television often look episode-by-episode, giving an final average (such as 7/13 if seven episodes pass in a 13 episode season,) or compare the series' passing Bechdel's Test with its passing a "reverse Bechdel test" (even without such compensation, it's often surprising to notice how long it takes many TV shows to pass). Another tactic would be the probability that a typical two-hour collection of episodes would pass.

Compare TheSmurfettePrinciple. Works that follow TheSmurfettePrinciple include a female character strictly for demographic appeal but make no real attempt to treat her as an interesting character in her own right, outside of her relationships with the male characters. See also NeverASelfMadeWoman, which shows that even a well rounded female character with her own goals is most often only relevant to the story by her relationship to a man. Finally, see TokenRomance and RomanticPlotTumor for the effects of Hollywood's belief that both male and female audiences are generally uninterested in female characters except in the context of romance with a male character. See also UsefulNotes/DeggansRule, which is a similar rule regarding race.
test".

For other tropes regarding the representation of gender in media, see TheSmurfettePrinciple (one female character included strictly for demographic appeal in a work with many male characters, making it impossible to pass rule 1), NeverASelfMadeWoman (a female character is only relevant to the story by her relationship to a man), GenderEqualEnsemble (self-explanatory) (an EnsembleCast has nearly 50-50 ratio of genders), and ChromosomeCasting (works featuring only male characters or only female, but not both).
both). The prevalence of TokenRomance and RomanticPlotTumor contribute to works failing rule 3 of the test.
29th Nov '16 2:42:09 PM Madrugada
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* ''Webcomic/MagickChicks'': Callie complains about a movie failing the titular test.
29th Nov '16 2:37:20 PM Madrugada
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Now, by limiting yourself to shows/movies that pass the test, you'd be cutting out a ''lot'' of otherwise-worthy entertainment; indeed, a fair number of top-notch works have legitimate reasons for [[ChromosomeCasting including no women]] (e.g. ones set in [[Film/TheShawshankRedemption a men's prison]], or on [[Film/DasBoot a WWII military submarine]], or [[Film/TwelveAngryMen back when only men served on juries]][[note]] Since jury selection is tied to voting registration, and since the play is set after passage of the 19th Amendment, the jury ''could'' have had women. Gender/ethnic balance wasn't a standard expectation then, though, and truth be told all-male and all-female juries aren't terribly uncommon.[[/note]]), or [[WesternAnimation/TheTripletsOfBelleville with no conversations at all]], or having only one or [[Film/MyDinnerWithAndre two characters]]. If it's a romantic comedy about a man and a woman, then it's justified that the female characters would talk about men and romance. [http://www.passthebechdeltest.com/faq The reverse test isn't really an issue itself]] as an estimated 90% of movies pass it. It may only be interesting in comparison to the original test since it shows how the concept of the movie/ work altogether deals with gender regarding same gender relationships.

to:

Now, by limiting yourself to shows/movies that pass the test, you'd be cutting out a ''lot'' of otherwise-worthy entertainment; indeed, a fair number of top-notch works have legitimate reasons for [[ChromosomeCasting including no women]] (e.g. ones set in [[Film/TheShawshankRedemption a men's prison]], or on [[Film/DasBoot a WWII military submarine]], or [[Film/TwelveAngryMen back when only men served on juries]][[note]] Since jury selection is tied to voting registration, and since the play is set after passage of the 19th Amendment, the jury ''could'' have had women. Gender/ethnic balance wasn't a standard expectation then, though, and truth be told all-male and all-female juries aren't terribly uncommon.[[/note]]), or [[WesternAnimation/TheTripletsOfBelleville with no conversations at all]], or having only one or [[Film/MyDinnerWithAndre two characters]]. If it's a romantic comedy about a man and a woman, then it's justified that the female characters would talk about men and romance. [http://www.[[http://www.passthebechdeltest.com/faq The reverse test isn't really an issue itself]] as an estimated 90% of movies pass it. It may only be interesting in comparison to the original test since it shows how the concept of the movie/ work altogether deals with gender regarding same gender relationships.
29th Nov '16 2:13:29 PM Madrugada
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This is because the Bechdel Test is ''not'' meant to give a scorecard of a work's overall level of feminism. It is entirely possible for a film to pass without having overt feminist themes; in fact, the original example of a movie that passes is ''Film/{{Alien}}'', which, while it has feminist subtexts, is mostly just a sci-fi/action/horror flick. A movie can easily pass the Bechdel Test and still be incredibly misogynistic. For instance, the infamously bad ''Film/ManosTheHandsOfFate'' passes the test, but its treatment of women is incredibly {{squick}}y. So does The Bikini Carwash Company, which is little more than tasteless pandering. Conversely, it's also possible for a story to fail the test and still be strongly feminist in other ways (cf. the aforementioned ''Mulan''; see also ''Film/PacificRim'' and its spinoff "Mako Mori Test", discussed in the "Web Originals" section below). There's nothing necessarily wrong with a feminist film flunking the Bechdel Test. What's a problem is that it becomes a pattern when ''so many'' movies fail the test, while very few show male characters whose lives seem to revolve around women, that says [[UnfortunateImplications uncomfortable things]] about the way Hollywood handles gender. There are also lesser-known variations of the test, such as the [[UsefulNotes/DeggansRule Race Bechdel Test]], in which two characters of color talk about anything other than the white leads, and the Reverse Bechdel Test, [[GenderFlip with the roles of men and women swapped]].

to:

This is because the Bechdel Test is ''not'' meant to give a scorecard of a work's overall level of feminism. It is entirely possible for a film to pass without having overt feminist themes; in fact, the original example of a movie that passes is ''Film/{{Alien}}'', which, while it has feminist subtexts, is mostly just a sci-fi/action/horror flick. A movie can easily pass the Bechdel Test and still be incredibly misogynistic. For instance, the infamously bad ''Film/ManosTheHandsOfFate'' passes the test, but its treatment of women is incredibly {{squick}}y. So does The Bikini Carwash Company, which is little more than tasteless pandering. Conversely, it's also possible for a story to fail the test and still be strongly feminist in other ways (cf. the aforementioned (for instance ''Mulan''; see also or ''Film/PacificRim'' and its spinoff "Mako Mori Test", discussed in the "Web Originals" section below). There's nothing necessarily wrong with a feminist film flunking the Bechdel Test. What's a problem is that it becomes a pattern when ''so many'' movies fail the test, while very few show male characters whose lives seem to revolve around women, that says [[UnfortunateImplications uncomfortable things]] about the way Hollywood handles gender. There are also lesser-known variations of the test, such as the [[UsefulNotes/DeggansRule Race Bechdel Test]], in which two characters of color talk about anything other than the white leads, and the Reverse Bechdel Test, [[GenderFlip with the roles of men and women swapped]].
29th Nov '16 2:11:43 PM Madrugada
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Now, by limiting yourself to shows/movies that pass the test, you'd be cutting out a ''lot'' of otherwise-worthy entertainment; indeed, a fair number of top-notch works have legitimate reasons for [[ChromosomeCasting including no women]] (e.g. ones set in [[Film/TheShawshankRedemption a men's prison]], or on [[Film/DasBoot a WWII military submarine]], or [[Film/TwelveAngryMen back when only men served on juries]][[note]] Since jury selection is tied to voting registration, and since the play is set after passage of the 19th Amendment, the jury ''could'' have had women. Gender/ethnic balance wasn't a standard expectation then, though, and truth be told all-male and all-female juries aren't terribly uncommon; for instance, in 2013 a (six-member) all-female jury tried [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Zimmerman George Zimmerman]] for the murder of [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin Trayvon Martin]], which incidentally would, if it were a movie plot, probably firmly fail the Bechdel Test but also probably be pretty feminist (women sitting in judgment of men, after all).[[/note]]), or [[WesternAnimation/TheTripletsOfBelleville with no conversations at all]], or having only one or [[Film/MyDinnerWithAndre two characters]]. If it's a romantic comedy about a man and a woman, then it's justified that the female characters would talk about men and romance. If it is, well, [[QueerRomance not]]
and it's about romantic/ sexual relationships between women - Romantic comedy or any other genre - movies do not only pass the Brechdal Test because of the main plot itself but also demonstrate how easy it actually is to pass, often not only regarding the romantic relationship. Movies based on romantic/ sexual relationships between men might have similar difficulties to pass the Brechdal test like most movies about heterosexuals. Depending on the concept of the movie this can be more justified, though, e.g. if it's set at a place where you normally don't find women (could be a gay male club but also any other setting mentioned above and more). If it is a romance/ movie about the relationship there might likely be no female lead and [[TheLawOfConservationOfDetail less important or secondary characters don't talk to each other that much]] - which is true for most movies. In contrast, movies about a heterosexual romance (/ people/ relationships) often fail (if they do) ''in spite of'' having at least one female lead or at least slightly important female character, well, because a heterosexual romance basically requires a female character somehow. In a straight (or [[BiTheWay bisexual]], although that is [[NoBisexuals very seldom]]) man and woman romance of course it makes perfect sence for her talk about a man/ men and romance (which happens) - but her importance would very much also justify a conversation that would make the movie pass.
In romance movies of course there is a higher chance that male characters only talk about women, too, so when this movies fails the Brechdal test you might "call it even". [[note]]But then again, if there is just one conversation between people of one gender about something besides a person of the opposite gender in the entire movie - it will very likely be men not talking about a woman. [[http://www.passthebechdeltest.com/faq The reverse test isn't really an issue itself]] as an estimated 90% of movies pass it. It may only be interesting in comparison to the original test since it shows how the concept of the movie/ work altogether deals with gender regarding same gender relationships. [[/note]] You may even be cutting out a lot of works that have feminist themes. And if the characters who talk or are talked about - in a [[QueerRomance romance movie]] or any other -[[QueerAsTropes are neither "completly" male or female]] the test gets quite useless (if not enhanced, specified or changed to fit non binary people, [[http://www.glaad.org/press/logos like this one]]).
But all that's the point; the majority of fiction created today, for whatever reason, seems to think women aren't worth portraying except in relation to men.[[note]]and, of course, that all characters are either completly male or female for their whole life[[/note]] Things have changed since the test was first formulated (the strip in which it was originally suggested was written in 1985), but [[MostWritersAreMale Hollywood]] still needs to be prodded to use something other than TheSmurfettePrinciple.



This is because the Bechdel Test is ''not'' meant to give a scorecard of a work's overall level of feminism. It is entirely possible for a film to pass without having overt feminist themes in fact, the original example of a movie that passes is ''Film/{{Alien}}'', which, while it has feminist subtexts, is mostly just a sci-fi/action/horror flick. A movie can easily pass the Bechdel Test and still be incredibly misogynistic. For instance, the infamously bad ''Film/ManosTheHandsOfFate'' passes the test, but its treatment of women is incredibly {{squick}}y. So does The Bikini Carwash Company, which is little more than tasteless pandering. Conversely, it's also possible for a story to fail the test and still be strongly feminist in other ways (cf. the aforementioned ''Mulan''; see also ''Film/PacificRim'' and its spinoff "Mako Mori Test", discussed in the "Web Originals" section below). There's nothing necessarily wrong with a feminist film flunking the Bechdel Test. What's a problem is that it becomes a pattern when ''so many'' movies fail the test, while very few show male characters whose lives seem to revolve around women, that says [[UnfortunateImplications uncomfortable things]] about the way Hollywood handles gender. There are also lesser-known variations of the test, such as the [[UsefulNotes/DeggansRule Race Bechdel Test]], in which two characters of color talk about anything other than the white leads, and the Reverse Bechdel Test, [[GenderFlip with the roles of men and women swapped]].

to:

This is because the Bechdel Test is ''not'' meant to give a scorecard of a work's overall level of feminism. It is entirely possible for a film to pass without having overt feminist themes themes; in fact, the original example of a movie that passes is ''Film/{{Alien}}'', which, while it has feminist subtexts, is mostly just a sci-fi/action/horror flick. A movie can easily pass the Bechdel Test and still be incredibly misogynistic. For instance, the infamously bad ''Film/ManosTheHandsOfFate'' passes the test, but its treatment of women is incredibly {{squick}}y. So does The Bikini Carwash Company, which is little more than tasteless pandering. Conversely, it's also possible for a story to fail the test and still be strongly feminist in other ways (cf. the aforementioned ''Mulan''; see also ''Film/PacificRim'' and its spinoff "Mako Mori Test", discussed in the "Web Originals" section below). There's nothing necessarily wrong with a feminist film flunking the Bechdel Test. What's a problem is that it becomes a pattern when ''so many'' movies fail the test, while very few show male characters whose lives seem to revolve around women, that says [[UnfortunateImplications uncomfortable things]] about the way Hollywood handles gender. There are also lesser-known variations of the test, such as the [[UsefulNotes/DeggansRule Race Bechdel Test]], in which two characters of color talk about anything other than the white leads, and the Reverse Bechdel Test, [[GenderFlip with the roles of men and women swapped]].
swapped]].

Now, by limiting yourself to shows/movies that pass the test, you'd be cutting out a ''lot'' of otherwise-worthy entertainment; indeed, a fair number of top-notch works have legitimate reasons for [[ChromosomeCasting including no women]] (e.g. ones set in [[Film/TheShawshankRedemption a men's prison]], or on [[Film/DasBoot a WWII military submarine]], or [[Film/TwelveAngryMen back when only men served on juries]][[note]] Since jury selection is tied to voting registration, and since the play is set after passage of the 19th Amendment, the jury ''could'' have had women. Gender/ethnic balance wasn't a standard expectation then, though, and truth be told all-male and all-female juries aren't terribly uncommon.[[/note]]), or [[WesternAnimation/TheTripletsOfBelleville with no conversations at all]], or having only one or [[Film/MyDinnerWithAndre two characters]]. If it's a romantic comedy about a man and a woman, then it's justified that the female characters would talk about men and romance. [http://www.passthebechdeltest.com/faq The reverse test isn't really an issue itself]] as an estimated 90% of movies pass it. It may only be interesting in comparison to the original test since it shows how the concept of the movie/ work altogether deals with gender regarding same gender relationships.

But all that's the point; the majority of fiction created today, for whatever reason, seems to think women aren't worth portraying except in relation to men. Things have changed since the test was first formulated (the strip in which it was originally suggested was written in 1985), but [[MostWritersAreMale Hollywood]] still needs to be prodded to use something other than TheSmurfettePrinciple.
29th Nov '16 1:14:12 PM somerandomdude
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-->''"You're a misguided C-minus-on-the-Bechdel-Test-joke!"''

to:

-->''"You're a misguided C-minus-on-the-Bechdel-Test-joke!"''C-minus-on-the-Bechdel-Test joke!"''
29th Nov '16 1:13:31 PM somerandomdude
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Added DiffLines:

-->''"You're a misguided C-minus-on-the-Bechdel-Test-joke!"''
29th Nov '16 5:51:10 AM anza_sb
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Added DiffLines:

* The Bechdel test is referenced in ''WebVideo/EpicRapBattlesOfHistory'''s "Music/StevieWonder vs ComicBook/WonderWoman"; Stevie mentions how Wonder Woman failed the test despite being one of the first superheroines and a prominent female icon.
6th Nov '16 5:52:29 AM Terwanuli
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and it's about romantic/ sexual relationships between women - Romantic comedy or any other genre - movies do not only pass the Brechdal Test because of the main plot itself but also demonstrate how easy it actually is to pass, often not only regarding the romantic relationship. Movies based on romantic/ /sexual relationships between men might have similar difficulties to pass the Brechdal test like most movies about heterosexuals. Depending on the concept of the movie this can be more justified, though, e.g. if it is a romance/ movie about the relationship so there isn't a female lead and less important or secondary characters don't talk to each other that much - which is true for most movies. In contrast, movies about a heterosexual romance (/ people/ relationships) often fail (if they do) in spite of having at least one female lead or at least slightly important female character, well, often because of the concept of the main plot. In a straight romance of course it makes perfect sence for her talk about men and romance (which happens) - but her importance would very much also justify a conversation that would make the movie pass.
In romance movies of course there is a higher chance that male characters only talk about women too so when this movies fail the Brechdal test you might "call it even". [[note]]But then again, if there is just one conversation between people of one gender about something besides a person of the opposite gender in the entire movie - it will very likely be men not talking about a woman. [[http://www.passthebechdeltest.com/faq The reverse test isn't really an issue itself]] as an estimated 90% of movies pass it. It may only be interesting in comparison to the original test since it shows how the concept of the movie/ work altogether deals with gender regarding same gender relationships. [[/note]] You may even be cutting out a lot of works that have feminist themes. And if the characters who talk or are talked about - in a [[QueerRomance romance movie]] or any other -[[queerastropes are neither "completly" male or female]] the test gets quite useless (if not enhanced, specified or changed to fit non binary people, [[http://www.glaad.org/press/logos like this one]]).

to:

and it's about romantic/ sexual relationships between women - Romantic comedy or any other genre - movies do not only pass the Brechdal Test because of the main plot itself but also demonstrate how easy it actually is to pass, often not only regarding the romantic relationship. Movies based on romantic/ /sexual sexual relationships between men might have similar difficulties to pass the Brechdal test like most movies about heterosexuals. Depending on the concept of the movie this can be more justified, though, e.g. if it's set at a place where you normally don't find women (could be a gay male club but also any other setting mentioned above and more). If it is a romance/ movie about the relationship so there isn't a might likely be no female lead and [[TheLawOfConservationOfDetail less important or secondary characters don't talk to each other that much much]] - which is true for most movies. In contrast, movies about a heterosexual romance (/ people/ relationships) often fail (if they do) in ''in spite of of'' having at least one female lead or at least slightly important female character, well, often because of the concept of the main plot. a heterosexual romance basically requires a female character somehow. In a straight (or [[BiTheWay bisexual]], although that is [[NoBisexuals very seldom]]) man and woman romance of course it makes perfect sence for her talk about a man/ men and romance (which happens) - but her importance would very much also justify a conversation that would make the movie pass.
In romance movies of course there is a higher chance that male characters only talk about women too women, too, so when this movies fail fails the Brechdal test you might "call it even". [[note]]But then again, if there is just one conversation between people of one gender about something besides a person of the opposite gender in the entire movie - it will very likely be men not talking about a woman. [[http://www.passthebechdeltest.com/faq The reverse test isn't really an issue itself]] as an estimated 90% of movies pass it. It may only be interesting in comparison to the original test since it shows how the concept of the movie/ work altogether deals with gender regarding same gender relationships. [[/note]] You may even be cutting out a lot of works that have feminist themes. And if the characters who talk or are talked about - in a [[QueerRomance romance movie]] or any other -[[queerastropes -[[QueerAsTropes are neither "completly" male or female]] the test gets quite useless (if not enhanced, specified or changed to fit non binary people, [[http://www.glaad.org/press/logos like this one]]).
6th Nov '16 5:28:46 AM Terwanuli
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Now, by limiting yourself to shows/movies that pass the test, you'd be cutting out a ''lot'' of otherwise-worthy entertainment; indeed, a fair number of top-notch works have legitimate reasons for [[ChromosomeCasting including no women]] (e.g. ones set in [[Film/TheShawshankRedemption a men's prison]], or on [[Film/DasBoot a WWII military submarine]], or [[Film/TwelveAngryMen back when only men served on juries]][[note]] Since jury selection is tied to voting registration, and since the play is set after passage of the 19th Amendment, the jury ''could'' have had women. Gender/ethnic balance wasn't a standard expectation then, though, and truth be told all-male and all-female juries aren't terribly uncommon; for instance, in 2013 a (six-member) all-female jury tried [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Zimmerman George Zimmerman]] for the murder of [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin Trayvon Martin]], which incidentally would, if it were a movie plot, probably firmly fail the Bechdel Test but also probably be pretty feminist (women sitting in judgment of men, after all).[[/note]]), or [[WesternAnimation/TheTripletsOfBelleville with no conversations at all]], or having only one or [[Film/MyDinnerWithAndre two characters]]; hell, if it's a romantic comedy[[note]]If it is, well, a romance between a man and a woman, which is very likely but [[QueerRomance inverted examples]] are not unheard of.[[/note]], then it's justified that the female characters would talk about men and romance. The male characters will likely only talk about women too. [[note]]So, if a romantic comedy fails the test you may check if the movie fails a reverse test (Men talking to each other about something besides a woman), too. But then again, if there is just one conversation between people of one gender about something besides a person of the opposite gender in the entire movie - it will very likely be men not talking about a woman. [[http://www.passthebechdeltest.com/faq The reverse test isn't really an issue itself]] as an estimated 90% of movies pass it. It may only be interesting in comparison to the original test since it shows how the concept of the movie/ work altogether deals with gender regarding same gender relationships. [[/note]] You may even be cutting out a lot of works that have feminist themes. But that's the point; the majority of fiction created today, for whatever reason, seems to think women aren't worth portraying except in relation to men. Things have changed since the test was first formulated (the strip in which it was originally suggested was written in 1985), but [[MostWritersAreMale Hollywood]] still needs to be prodded to use something other than TheSmurfettePrinciple.

to:

Now, by limiting yourself to shows/movies that pass the test, you'd be cutting out a ''lot'' of otherwise-worthy entertainment; indeed, a fair number of top-notch works have legitimate reasons for [[ChromosomeCasting including no women]] (e.g. ones set in [[Film/TheShawshankRedemption a men's prison]], or on [[Film/DasBoot a WWII military submarine]], or [[Film/TwelveAngryMen back when only men served on juries]][[note]] Since jury selection is tied to voting registration, and since the play is set after passage of the 19th Amendment, the jury ''could'' have had women. Gender/ethnic balance wasn't a standard expectation then, though, and truth be told all-male and all-female juries aren't terribly uncommon; for instance, in 2013 a (six-member) all-female jury tried [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Zimmerman George Zimmerman]] for the murder of [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin Trayvon Martin]], which incidentally would, if it were a movie plot, probably firmly fail the Bechdel Test but also probably be pretty feminist (women sitting in judgment of men, after all).[[/note]]), or [[WesternAnimation/TheTripletsOfBelleville with no conversations at all]], or having only one or [[Film/MyDinnerWithAndre two characters]]; hell, if characters]]. If it's a romantic comedy[[note]]If it is, well, a romance between comedy about a man and a woman, which is very likely but [[QueerRomance inverted examples]] are not unheard of.[[/note]], then it's justified that the female characters would talk about men and romance. The If it is, well, [[QueerRomance not]]
and it's about romantic/ sexual relationships between women - Romantic comedy or any other genre - movies do not only pass the Brechdal Test because of the main plot itself but also demonstrate how easy it actually is to pass, often not only regarding the romantic relationship. Movies based on romantic/ /sexual relationships between men might have similar difficulties to pass the Brechdal test like most movies about heterosexuals. Depending on the concept of the movie this can be more justified, though, e.g. if it is a romance/ movie about the relationship so there isn't a female lead and less important or secondary characters don't talk to each other that much - which is true for most movies. In contrast, movies about a heterosexual romance (/ people/ relationships) often fail (if they do) in spite of having at least one female lead or at least slightly important female character, well, often because of the concept of the main plot. In a straight romance of course it makes perfect sence for her talk about men and romance (which happens) - but her importance would very much also justify a conversation that would make the movie pass.
In romance movies of course there is a higher chance that
male characters will likely only talk about women too. [[note]]So, if a romantic comedy fails too so when this movies fail the Brechdal test you may check if the movie fails a reverse test (Men talking to each other about something besides a woman), too. But might "call it even". [[note]]But then again, if there is just one conversation between people of one gender about something besides a person of the opposite gender in the entire movie - it will very likely be men not talking about a woman. [[http://www.passthebechdeltest.com/faq The reverse test isn't really an issue itself]] as an estimated 90% of movies pass it. It may only be interesting in comparison to the original test since it shows how the concept of the movie/ work altogether deals with gender regarding same gender relationships. [[/note]] You may even be cutting out a lot of works that have feminist themes. And if the characters who talk or are talked about - in a [[QueerRomance romance movie]] or any other -[[queerastropes are neither "completly" male or female]] the test gets quite useless (if not enhanced, specified or changed to fit non binary people, [[http://www.glaad.org/press/logos like this one]]).
But all that's the point; the majority of fiction created today, for whatever reason, seems to think women aren't worth portraying except in relation to men. men.[[note]]and, of course, that all characters are either completly male or female for their whole life[[/note]] Things have changed since the test was first formulated (the strip in which it was originally suggested was written in 1985), but [[MostWritersAreMale Hollywood]] still needs to be prodded to use something other than TheSmurfettePrinciple.
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