History UsefulNotes / Socialism

16th Jun '16 6:46:27 PM Fireblood
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While the numbers of mined coal, produced steel etc. looked good (at least on paper), in practice certain problems cropped up again and again. Since the people in production had no real incentive to work harder (as long as they could avoid punishment), they would instead look for ways to "fulfill the plan" in a way that saved work. (As explained below: Even when they received more money for more work, this didn't automatically mean they could buy more stuff with it. On the other hand, the fact that laziness is its own reward remained true even in Socialism.) For example, if workers in a window pane factory had the order to produce X tons of panes, they would make ridiculously thick panes (less of them necessary to make a ton). If the order was like "produce X square meters of panes", they'd make panes too thin, which would be too brittle. And maybe steal some of the glass for themselves and trade it on the BlackMarket.

to:

While the numbers of mined coal, produced steel etc. looked good (at least on paper), in practice certain problems cropped up again and again. Since the people in production had no real incentive to work harder (as long as they could avoid punishment), they would instead look for ways to "fulfill the plan" in a way that saved work. (As explained below: Even when they received more money for more work, this didn't automatically mean they could buy more stuff with it. On the other hand, the fact that laziness is its own reward remained true even in Socialism.) For example, if workers in a window pane factory had the order to produce X tons of panes, they would make ridiculously thick panes (less of them necessary to make a ton). If the order was like "produce X square meters of panes", they'd make panes too thin, which would be too brittle. And maybe steal some of the glass for themselves and trade it on the BlackMarket.
BlackMarket. The relationship has been summed up as "We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us."



--> "Three ones."

to:

--> "Three ones."Three."



--> "I have four of them, he has five ones."

to:

--> "I have four of them, he has five ones.five."



In short: Since (regular) money doesn't matter, the wares will go to [[ScrewTheRulesIHaveConnections those who have the best connections to those selling it.]] This was quite often the case, and people would have to waste hours of their life standing in a queue. Which was even worse in places where bread was sold in one store, milk in a second one and meat in a third one, [[{{Irony}} for practicality]]. Of course, if you were lucky enough to own hard currency like American dollars or [[UsefulNotes/WestGermany West German marks]], this didn't apply. Which led to another joke that Communism and Capitalism are really NotSoDifferent, because in both systems you can get everything if you only have [[ScrewTheRulesIHaveMoney enough dollars]].[[/folder]]

to:

In short: Since since (regular) money doesn't matter, the wares will go to [[ScrewTheRulesIHaveConnections those who have the best connections to those selling it.]] This was quite often the case, and people would have to waste hours of their life standing in a queue. Which was even worse in places where bread was sold in one store, milk in a second one and meat in a third one, [[{{Irony}} for practicality]]. Of course, if you were lucky enough to own hard currency like American dollars or [[UsefulNotes/WestGermany West German marks]], this didn't apply. Which led to another joke that Communism and Capitalism are really NotSoDifferent, because in both systems you can get everything if you only have [[ScrewTheRulesIHaveMoney enough dollars]].[[/folder]]



The new government set up the world's first system of socialized medicine, took into state ownership most of Britain's heavy industry, and greatly expanded the system of welfare benefits. It also negotiated the independence of India, which led to the gradual decolonization of the British Empire. These policies were widely popular; the Labour Party never lost a single by-election during its first term (which no government has since managed), won a huge majority, and was returned to office at the end of it. However, Attlee's experiment with state socialism was to be sharply curtailed; in the 1950 election, although he polled more that 1.5 million more votes than the Conservatives, he gained, due to a quirk of the British voting system, a majority of just five. He tried his best to govern with such a slim majority (which basically required his [=MPs=] to always be in Parliament to get anything done) but eventually called another election twenty months later, having done what he set out to do. Once again, he took the majority of the popular vote; but this time Britain's system fucked him even more comprehensively; he ended up 26 seats ''behind'' Winston Churchill's returning Conservatives, and Britain's first socialist government left office.

For the next thirty years, both left and right and Britain believed in broadly social democratic policies toward the economy, employment, trade unions, welfare, and foreign affairs. However, in 1979, MargaretThatcher came to power, and dismantled it, instituting a policy of monetarism, de-industrialization, interests-based foreign policy, and deregulation in its place, the so-called "neo-liberal consensus". The reasons for the collapse of the consensus are still hotly debated. Right-wing critics argue that socialist trade unions prevented British industry from retaining its competitiveness in the globalizing world. Left-wing ones argue that a lack of investment, right-wing ideological bias against state-owned industry (brought about by the rise of Austrian economics in the Tory Party from 1970), and malevolent class warfare on the right's part were to blame for Union militancy, which ultimately turned the wider public against it.

to:

The new government set up the world's first system of socialized medicine, took into state ownership most of Britain's heavy industry, and greatly expanded the system of welfare benefits. It also negotiated the independence of India, which led to the gradual decolonization of the British Empire. These policies were widely popular; the Labour Party never lost a single by-election during its first term (which no government has since managed), won a huge majority, and was returned to office at the end of it. However, Attlee's experiment with state socialism was to be sharply curtailed; in the 1950 election, although he polled more that 1.5 million more votes than the Conservatives, he gained, due to a quirk of the British voting system, a majority of just five. He tried his best to govern with such a slim majority (which basically required his [=MPs=] to always be in Parliament to get anything done) but eventually called another election twenty months later, having done what he set out to do. Once again, he took the majority of the popular vote; but this time Britain's system fucked him even more comprehensively; he comprehensively. He ended up 26 seats ''behind'' Winston Churchill's returning Conservatives, and Britain's first socialist government left office.

For the next thirty years, both left and right and Britain believed in broadly social democratic policies toward the economy, employment, trade unions, welfare, and foreign affairs. However, in 1979, MargaretThatcher came to power, power and dismantled it, instituting a policy of monetarism, de-industrialization, interests-based foreign policy, and deregulation in its place, the so-called "neo-liberal consensus". The reasons for the collapse of the consensus are still hotly debated. Right-wing critics argue that socialist trade unions prevented British industry from retaining its competitiveness in the globalizing world. Left-wing ones argue that a lack of investment, right-wing ideological bias against state-owned industry (brought about by the rise of Austrian economics in the Tory Party from 1970), and malevolent class warfare on the right's part were to blame for Union trade union militancy, which ultimately turned the wider public against it.



That said, the system is not without its critics. From the Right, ''The Economist'' has predicted the ultimate collapse of the model as unsustainable (though none of its predictions have, so far, come to pass). Libertarians have criticized it as [[DirtyCommunists excessively statist]]: while the American popular myth that the Nordics are bureaucratic and inefficient has never been anything but a myth; they ''do'' have some of the world's highest income taxes, which offends some people's conceptions of individualism. From the Left, others have criticized it for [[NoTrueScotsman not being socialist enough]], pointing to low rates of corporate taxation, high VAT, and the presence of monarchy in Denmark, Sweden, and Norway.

to:

That said, the system is not without its critics. From the Right, ''The Economist'' has predicted the ultimate collapse of the model as unsustainable (though none of its predictions have, so far, come to pass). Libertarians have criticized it as [[DirtyCommunists excessively statist]]: while the American popular myth that the Nordics are bureaucratic and inefficient has never been anything but a myth; myth, they ''do'' have some of the world's highest income taxes, which offends some people's conceptions of individualism. From the Left, others have criticized it for [[NoTrueScotsman not being socialist enough]], pointing to low rates of corporate taxation, high VAT, and the presence of monarchy in Denmark, Sweden, and Norway.
25th May '16 6:11:32 PM DavidDelony
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* '''Liberalism''': Including the Democratic Party, and especially the administration of UsefulNotes/BarackObama. Modern liberals are frequently Keynesians (ie. they support some degree of government intervention in the economy, especially during times of recession) but liberalism is still a fundamentally individualist ideology, and American liberals are broadly supportive of capitalism and favor its continuation; it cannot possibly be emphasized enough that the Keynesian economic theory is ''not'' by its nature necessarily socialist. Keynes himself stated: "The class war will find me on the side of the educated bourgeoisie"-in sum, his goal was to save capitalism from itself. At most there may be some overlap with Social Democracy, but whether ''that'' deserves to be considered socialist itself ([[TakeAThirdOption or something in between]]) [[NoTrueScotsman is not widely agreed on either]]. It should be noted that outside of the US, "liberalism" has different connotations and usually means something like "moderate libertarianism" by American standards. The best way to explain why liberals are not socialists is to say that liberals want to amend the capitalist economic system to make it more fair for everyone, while socialists believe that capitalism is essentially beyond saving and want to ''replace'' it.

to:

* '''Liberalism''': Including the Democratic Party, and especially the administration of UsefulNotes/BarackObama. This is a huge BerserkButton for actual socialists. Modern liberals are frequently Keynesians (ie. they support some degree of government intervention in the economy, especially during times of recession) but liberalism is still a fundamentally individualist ideology, and American liberals are broadly supportive of capitalism and favor its continuation; it cannot possibly be emphasized enough that the Keynesian economic theory is ''not'' by its nature necessarily socialist. Keynes himself stated: "The class war will find me on the side of the educated bourgeoisie"-in sum, his goal was to save capitalism from itself. At most there may be some overlap with Social Democracy, but whether ''that'' deserves to be considered socialist itself ([[TakeAThirdOption or something in between]]) [[NoTrueScotsman is not widely agreed on either]]. It should be noted that outside of the US, "liberalism" has different connotations and usually means something like "moderate libertarianism" by American standards. The best way to explain why liberals are not socialists is to say that liberals want to amend the capitalist economic system to make it more fair for everyone, while socialists believe that capitalism is essentially beyond saving and want to ''replace'' it.
25th May '16 6:10:23 PM DavidDelony
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* '''Social Democracy''': Social democracy is a more moderate kind of socialism that seeks to use democratic rather than revolutionary means to achieve its goals. It advocates policies such as full employment and the right to work, the welfare state, and ensuring some equality of outcome through redistribution of wealth. Examples of this form include Postwar Consensus politics in Britain and the Nordic model in Scandinavia. The main difference with State Socialism is that, while the values of Socialism are there, modern Social Democracy actually has no interest in reforming Capitalism into Socialism but rather updating and modifying the Capitalist model to create a more equitable society, making its status as a ''Socialist'' ideology hotly debated. Worth noting that in Europe, where it is most popular, Social Democracy parties independent of the major Socialists groups still caucus with those socialists in domestic legislatures, and are usually members of the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Alliance_of_Socialists_and_Democrats Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats]], which is itself under the blanket of the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_European_Socialists Party of European Socialists]] in the European Parliament. Worldwide, they also typically belong to the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_International Socialist International]] and the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Alliance Progressive Alliance]]. Most modern socialist parties in practice adhere to some version of social democracy while in power, keeping some form of market economy. Still, how "socialist" social democracy acutally is is controversial, especially after the neoliberal, pro-deregulation, pro-austerity turn social democratic parties have taken since the '80s.

to:

* '''Social Democracy''': Social democracy is a more moderate kind of socialism that seeks to use democratic rather than revolutionary means to achieve its goals. It advocates policies such as full employment and the right to work, the welfare state, and ensuring some equality of outcome through redistribution of wealth. Examples of this form include Postwar Consensus politics in Britain and the Nordic model in Scandinavia. The main difference with State Socialism is that, while the values of Socialism are there, modern Social Democracy actually has no interest in reforming Capitalism into Socialism but rather updating and modifying the Capitalist model to create a more equitable society, making its status as a ''Socialist'' ideology hotly debated. Worth noting that in Europe, where it is most popular, Social Democracy parties independent of the major Socialists groups still caucus with those socialists in domestic legislatures, and are usually members of the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Alliance_of_Socialists_and_Democrats Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats]], which is itself under the blanket of the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_European_Socialists Party of European Socialists]] in the European Parliament. Worldwide, they also typically belong to the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_International Socialist International]] and the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Alliance Progressive Alliance]]. Most modern socialist parties in practice adhere to some version of social democracy while in power, keeping some form of market economy. Still, how "socialist" social democracy acutally is is controversial, controversial with more radical socialists, especially after the neoliberal, pro-deregulation, pro-austerity turn social democratic parties have taken since the '80s.
25th Jan '16 5:27:32 AM Morgenthaler
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->''"[[TheRevolutionWillNotBeVilified Then raise the scarlet standard high!]]''\\
''[[DefiantToTheEnd Within its shade, we live and die.]]''\\
''Though [[DirtyCoward cowards flinch]] and [[CategoryTraitor traitors sneer]],''\\
''[[BadassBoast We keep the Red Flag flying here.]]"''

to:

->''"[[TheRevolutionWillNotBeVilified Then ->''"Then raise the scarlet standard high!]]''\\
''[[DefiantToTheEnd Within
high!''\\
''Within
its shade, we live and die.]]''\\
''\\
''Though [[DirtyCoward cowards flinch]] flinch and [[CategoryTraitor traitors sneer]],''\\
''[[BadassBoast We
sneer,''\\
''We
keep the Red Flag flying here.]]"''"''
10th Dec '15 2:45:20 AM CassandraLeo
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Added DiffLines:

* Music/RogerWaters
15th Nov '15 6:43:56 PM DavidDelony
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Added DiffLines:

* David Ben-Gurion
12th Nov '15 1:09:16 PM DavidDelony
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* '''Social Democracy''': Social democracy is a more moderate kind of socialism that seeks to use democratic rather than revolutionary means to achieve its goals. It advocates policies such as full employment and the right to work, the welfare state, and ensuring some equality of outcome through redistribution of wealth. Examples of this form include Postwar Consensus politics in Britain and the Nordic model in Scandinavia. The main difference with State Socialism is that, while the values of Socialism are there, modern Social Democracy actually has no interest in reforming Capitalism into Socialism but rather updating and modifying the Capitalist model to create a more equitable society, making its status as a ''Socialist'' ideology hotly debated. Worth noting that in Europe, where it is most popular, Social Democracy parties independent of the major Socialists groups still caucus with those socialists in domestic legislatures, and are usually members of the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Alliance_of_Socialists_and_Democrats Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats]], which is itself under the blanket of the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_European_Socialists Party of European Socialists]] in the European Parliament. Worldwide, they also typically belong to the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_International Socialist International]] and the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Alliance Progressive Alliance]]. Most modern socialist parties in practice adhere to some version of social democracy while in power, keeping some form of market economy. Still, how "socialist" social democracy acutally is is controversial, especially after the neoliberal, pro-deregulation turn social democratic parties have taken since the '80s.

to:

* '''Social Democracy''': Social democracy is a more moderate kind of socialism that seeks to use democratic rather than revolutionary means to achieve its goals. It advocates policies such as full employment and the right to work, the welfare state, and ensuring some equality of outcome through redistribution of wealth. Examples of this form include Postwar Consensus politics in Britain and the Nordic model in Scandinavia. The main difference with State Socialism is that, while the values of Socialism are there, modern Social Democracy actually has no interest in reforming Capitalism into Socialism but rather updating and modifying the Capitalist model to create a more equitable society, making its status as a ''Socialist'' ideology hotly debated. Worth noting that in Europe, where it is most popular, Social Democracy parties independent of the major Socialists groups still caucus with those socialists in domestic legislatures, and are usually members of the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Alliance_of_Socialists_and_Democrats Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats]], which is itself under the blanket of the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_European_Socialists Party of European Socialists]] in the European Parliament. Worldwide, they also typically belong to the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_International Socialist International]] and the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Alliance Progressive Alliance]]. Most modern socialist parties in practice adhere to some version of social democracy while in power, keeping some form of market economy. Still, how "socialist" social democracy acutally is is controversial, especially after the neoliberal, pro-deregulation pro-deregulation, pro-austerity turn social democratic parties have taken since the '80s.
29th Oct '15 6:47:41 PM DavidDelony
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* '''Social Democracy''': Social democracy is a more moderate kind of socialism that seeks to use democratic rather than revolutionary means to achieve its goals. It advocates policies such as full employment and the right to work, the welfare state, and ensuring some equality of outcome through redistribution of wealth. Examples of this form include Postwar Consensus politics in Britain and the Nordic model in Scandinavia. The main difference with State Socialism is that, while the values of Socialism are there, modern Social Democracy actually has no interest in reforming Capitalism into Socialism but rather updating and modifying the Capitalist model to create a more equitable society, making its status as a ''Socialist'' ideology hotly debated. Worth noting that in Europe, where it is most popular, Social Democracy parties independent of the major Socialists groups still caucus with those socialists in domestic legislatures, and are usually members of the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Alliance_of_Socialists_and_Democrats Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats]], which is itself under the blanket of the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_European_Socialists Party of European Socialists]] in the European Parliament. Worldwide, they also typically belong to the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_International Socialist International]] and the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Alliance Progressive Alliance]]. Most modern socialist parties in practice adhere to some version of social democracy while in power, keeping some form of market economy. Still, how "socialist" social democracy is controversial, especially after the neoliberal, pro-deregulation turn social democratic parties have taken since the '80s.

to:

* '''Social Democracy''': Social democracy is a more moderate kind of socialism that seeks to use democratic rather than revolutionary means to achieve its goals. It advocates policies such as full employment and the right to work, the welfare state, and ensuring some equality of outcome through redistribution of wealth. Examples of this form include Postwar Consensus politics in Britain and the Nordic model in Scandinavia. The main difference with State Socialism is that, while the values of Socialism are there, modern Social Democracy actually has no interest in reforming Capitalism into Socialism but rather updating and modifying the Capitalist model to create a more equitable society, making its status as a ''Socialist'' ideology hotly debated. Worth noting that in Europe, where it is most popular, Social Democracy parties independent of the major Socialists groups still caucus with those socialists in domestic legislatures, and are usually members of the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Alliance_of_Socialists_and_Democrats Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats]], which is itself under the blanket of the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_European_Socialists Party of European Socialists]] in the European Parliament. Worldwide, they also typically belong to the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_International Socialist International]] and the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Alliance Progressive Alliance]]. Most modern socialist parties in practice adhere to some version of social democracy while in power, keeping some form of market economy. Still, how "socialist" social democracy acutally is is controversial, especially after the neoliberal, pro-deregulation turn social democratic parties have taken since the '80s.
1st Sep '15 4:12:28 PM blueflame724
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Added DiffLines:

* Amadeo Bordiga
* Jaques Camatte


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* Paul Mattick
* Anton Pannekoek
17th Aug '15 6:38:18 PM KaiEll
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* '''Libertarian Socialism''': Imagine Anarcho-Syndicalism but less extreme, with the barest minimum of a State as supported by the Libertarian ideal. Government maintains trade relations and protects its people, but it does not interfere with their lives, which are meant to assume a cooperative instead of competitive way of living.
** An alternative concept of "libertarian socialism" includes the existence of the welfare state in that barest minimum to provide an equal playing field for all, therefore making force and fraud (at least directed against another individual) less attractive or pointless (this concept would be a BerserkButton for the more right-wing libertarians, who do not want a welfare state to exist). In this concept, personal freedom and privacy are paramount - the apparatus of the state that seeks to control individual behavior would be dismantled. For example, all drug laws would be repealed and replaced with truth-in-labeling on drugs laws - because it is not the business of the state to protect people from ''themselves'' but only from others who might seek to deceive or harm them.
** "Libertarian socialism" or "libertarian communism" have also been used interchangeably for different forms of anarchist socialism. Indeed, the word ''libertarian'' itself was first used by an anarcho-communist for his ideas.

to:

* '''Libertarian Socialism''': Imagine Anarcho-Syndicalism but less extreme, with the barest minimum A form of a State as supported by the Libertarian ideal. Government maintains trade relations and protects its people, but it does not interfere with their lives, which are meant to assume a cooperative instead of competitive way of living.
** An alternative concept of "libertarian socialism" includes the existence of the welfare state in
revolutionary socialism that barest minimum to provide an equal playing field for all, therefore making force and fraud (at least directed against another individual) less attractive or pointless (this concept would be a BerserkButton for advocates the more right-wing libertarians, who do not want a welfare state to exist). In this concept, personal freedom and privacy are paramount - the apparatus dismantling of the state that seeks to control individual behavior would be dismantled. For example, all drug laws would be repealed and replaced capitalism in favour of a horizontal society with truth-in-labeling on drugs laws - because it is not the business decisions made through consensus democracy. It serves as more of the state to protect people a collection of ideas, ranging from ''themselves'' but only from others who might seek Anarchism to deceive or harm them.
** "Libertarian socialism" or "libertarian communism" have also been used interchangeably for different
certain forms of anarchist socialism. Indeed, the word ''libertarian'' itself was first used by an anarcho-communist for his ideas.Marxism and Communism.
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