History TheyChangedItNowItSucks / TabletopGames

21st Jan '18 5:00:11 PM nombretomado
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* Among more legitimate complaints, this comes up a lot when ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons'' editions are discussed. The base is not so much {{broken|Base}} as it is shattered into a billion tiny splinters. Every single edition changed it and it sucked every single time. Not just Editions. Errata. Adjustments and changes to how powers work can set the forums exploding with "Class X is worthless now!" Complaining about nerfs to characters, in which people might have invested a lot of time is perfectly legitimate. Particularly as, depending on the edition, many/all builds rely on a very limited array of tricks and nerfing even one of them can push a character below the ability that the game assumes to be appropriate for his level. The trend from AD&D through 4E has always been about where to sacrifice verisimilitude to accommodate game-playability. Barring [[GameBreaker poor testing]], the later editions are more mechanically balanced at the cost of things actually making sense from an in-game perspective. The feud is always about how far in either direction is "too far", with most people siding with whichever edition they started with. This trope combined with BrokenBase makes D&D less a game system and more a collection of games with similar concepts but are ultimately separate in reality. The announcement that work is being done on writing future a 5th edition that will have modular rules as its selling point seems to be a case of WizardsOfTheCoast attempting to capitalize on this division. One specific D&D-related example: [[http://www.enworld.org/forum/en-world-official-reviews/312638-review-heroes-neverwinter-facebook-app-atari.html This review]] of the D&D-based Facebook app ''Heroes of Neverwinter''. Many of the comments call the reviewer on it.

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* Among more legitimate complaints, this comes up a lot when ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons'' editions are discussed. The base is not so much {{broken|Base}} as it is shattered into a billion tiny splinters. Every single edition changed it and it sucked every single time. Not just Editions. Errata. Adjustments and changes to how powers work can set the forums exploding with "Class X is worthless now!" Complaining about nerfs to characters, in which people might have invested a lot of time is perfectly legitimate. Particularly as, depending on the edition, many/all builds rely on a very limited array of tricks and nerfing even one of them can push a character below the ability that the game assumes to be appropriate for his level. The trend from AD&D through 4E has always been about where to sacrifice verisimilitude to accommodate game-playability. Barring [[GameBreaker poor testing]], the later editions are more mechanically balanced at the cost of things actually making sense from an in-game perspective. The feud is always about how far in either direction is "too far", with most people siding with whichever edition they started with. This trope combined with BrokenBase makes D&D less a game system and more a collection of games with similar concepts but are ultimately separate in reality. The announcement that work is being done on writing future a 5th edition that will have modular rules as its selling point seems to be a case of WizardsOfTheCoast Creator/WizardsOfTheCoast attempting to capitalize on this division. One specific D&D-related example: [[http://www.enworld.org/forum/en-world-official-reviews/312638-review-heroes-neverwinter-facebook-app-atari.html This review]] of the D&D-based Facebook app ''Heroes of Neverwinter''. Many of the comments call the reviewer on it.
10th Dec '17 5:50:13 PM nombretomado
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* ''{{Earthdawn}}'''s Second Edition had this happen to it as well; in principle the changes to the system were instituted to fix the various broken things in the first release - ED players were subsequently upset that the update broke off backwards compatibility with said First Edition. "Show me the Lightbringers!"

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* ''{{Earthdawn}}'''s ''TabletopGame/{{Earthdawn}}'''s Second Edition had this happen to it as well; in principle the changes to the system were instituted to fix the various broken things in the first release - ED players were subsequently upset that the update broke off backwards compatibility with said First Edition. "Show me the Lightbringers!"
21st Oct '17 6:39:15 PM Blenderhead
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** Inverted with the changes to Standard rotation...in 2014, at least. At the height of one of the most monotonous Standard formats in years, Wizards of the Coast announced that the way sets were released and how Standard was managed were changing. Citing Standard formats that were solved (i.e. the best decks were identified and refined) much faster than in the pre-Internet days the schedule was developed in and the tendency for each 3 set block to have 1 set that made the block's Limited environment worse rather than better, blocks would move from 3 to 2 sets and Standard would move from 8 to 6, rotating ''twice'' a year instead of in the fall. Core Sets were also discontinued for being too complex for new players and too simple for established ones. This went over shockingly well, with lead designer Mark Rosewater even releasing a ''Tales From the Pit'' comic about how shocked everyone at Wizards was that they'd made a decision the fanbase seemed universally in favor of.
** This trope came to pass when the first shortened rotation happened. The lands included in the existing ''Khans of Tarkir'' expansion and new ''Battle for Zendikar'' expansion synergized perfectly, meaning that running 4 or even 5 colors (over the usual 2 or 3) wasn't just possible, it was easy. The format was now a mere 5 sets and had near-perfect mana, meaning that all of Standard was fighting over the same few cards that were the best in the format. Deck prices doubled, the reigning champ coming in at over ''$700,'' with the chase card of the format topping out north of $90 each, an unheard-of price for an in-print card. As a result of Standard becoming so massively expensive ''and'' expiring faster, attendance plummeted. It would take almost two years of rebuilding, including reverting the rotation change and canning the two set block formula for Standard to recover the massive player count lost over what was nominally a welcome change.
6th Jun '17 5:51:07 PM iowaforever
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** Imperial Guard and Dark Eldar seem to have evaded this in part because the IG were the buttmonkey for the previous 2 decades and their new codex gave them teeth without being overpowered, and the Dark Eldar codex was 14 years out of date and really didn't change anything significant it just made them consistent with 5th edition rules and more playable but still the hardest faction, that is until the Sisters received their infamous update.

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** Imperial Guard and Dark Eldar seem to have evaded this in part because the IG were the buttmonkey ButtMonkey for the previous 2 decades and their new codex gave them teeth without being overpowered, and the Dark Eldar codex was 14 years out of date and really didn't change anything significant it just made them consistent with 5th edition rules and more playable but still the hardest faction, that is until the Sisters received their infamous update.



** Other players are also frustrated by the removal of the force organisation chart that originally bound army compositions. Now, players receive a bonus for adhering to the chart, but are otherwise 'unbound', allowing some players to simply field columns of tanks or titans against their opponents. Needless to say, cries of Pay-to-win are not few and far between.

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** Other players are also frustrated by the removal of the force organisation chart that originally bound army compositions. Now, players receive a bonus for adhering to the chart, but are otherwise 'unbound', allowing some players to simply field columns of tanks or titans against their opponents. Needless to say, cries of Pay-to-win are not few and far between.between, and cries of joy where heard when 8th ditched this for a large variety of force organization charts as well as "Open Play" based on relative power levels between units.
7th Apr '17 6:27:48 PM bwburke94
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** The 2011 Sisters of Battle codex received a very negative reception. Most players felt that the already not-very-powerful Sisters went from "mid-low tier" to "absolutely unplayable." Some of the other changes really led to head-scratching, such as the new Faith system which gives an army 1d6 faith per turn - whether that army is a 500 point skirmish force or a 3000 point massive force. Complaints include failing to scale powers, confusing powers, and nerfing an underpowered army. They changed it so it's simply not even worth fielding. [[NonFanon Players tend to ignore the codex update altogether]].

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** The 2011 Sisters of Battle codex received a very negative reception. Most players felt that the already not-very-powerful Sisters went from "mid-low tier" to "absolutely unplayable." Some of the other changes really led to head-scratching, such as the new Faith system which gives an army 1d6 faith per turn - whether that army is a 500 point skirmish force or a 3000 point massive force. Complaints include failing to scale powers, confusing powers, and nerfing an underpowered army. They changed it so it's simply not even worth fielding. [[NonFanon Players tend to ignore the codex update altogether]].
8th Jan '17 9:50:43 AM nombretomado
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* When people on the Privateer Press forums found out that one of the newest units for [[IronKingdoms Warmachine]] was going to be plastic instead of metal, reactions were... mixed. Many people welcomed the change but a particularly vocal minority condemned it for straying from the "Full Metal Fantasy" aesthetic that the company had cultivated up to that point, among other things. It's either something to do with a feel of solidity, or the vocal minority use their Warmachine figures as sling ammunition and don't want to have to correct their aim. For those curious, resin-plastic warjacks ''do'' still feel plenty solid. Probably helps that the torsos are all one giant block of solid resin-plastic rather than being hollow like some of the walkers from [[TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}} another game.]]

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* When people on the Privateer Press forums found out that one of the newest units for [[IronKingdoms [[TabletopGame/IronKingdoms Warmachine]] was going to be plastic instead of metal, reactions were... mixed. Many people welcomed the change but a particularly vocal minority condemned it for straying from the "Full Metal Fantasy" aesthetic that the company had cultivated up to that point, among other things. It's either something to do with a feel of solidity, or the vocal minority use their Warmachine figures as sling ammunition and don't want to have to correct their aim. For those curious, resin-plastic warjacks ''do'' still feel plenty solid. Probably helps that the torsos are all one giant block of solid resin-plastic rather than being hollow like some of the walkers from [[TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}} another game.]]
26th Nov '16 3:11:50 PM nombretomado
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* A lot of the initial grousing that occurred when ''{{Champions}}'' went from 5th edition to 6th was originally chalked up to this... until someone started doing a serious analysis of the game and found out that, yeah, there were a lot of new rules that basically arbitrarily screwed your long-established characters, assuming you tried converting them from 5th to 6th.
* Without fail, EVERY time a new hardcover book for {{Pathfinder}} comes out, the Paizo blogs are infested with "BLOAT!" threads and the declaration that the game is getting too huge and too complex. Such threads typically pop up like a rash for about a month, and then disappear completely, until the next hardcover comes out.

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* A lot of the initial grousing that occurred when ''{{Champions}}'' ''TabletopGame/{{Champions}}'' went from 5th edition to 6th was originally chalked up to this... until someone started doing a serious analysis of the game and found out that, yeah, there were a lot of new rules that basically arbitrarily screwed your long-established characters, assuming you tried converting them from 5th to 6th.
* Without fail, EVERY time a new hardcover book for {{Pathfinder}} ''TabletopGame/{{Pathfinder}}'' comes out, the Paizo blogs are infested with "BLOAT!" threads and the declaration that the game is getting too huge and too complex. Such threads typically pop up like a rash for about a month, and then disappear completely, until the next hardcover comes out.
19th Sep '16 6:24:00 AM Jasin_Moridin
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*** The largest amount of whinging regarding ''[[TabletopGame/WarhammerAgeOfSigmar Age of Sigmar]]'', though, was from the hardcore tournament players about the fact that the game, by default, doesn't have points values. While there was some grumbling from more casual gamers about trying to work out how to balance a friendly game to where it's fun, the vast majority of the wailing and gnashing of teeth came from the people who could no longer work out "optimum" [[StopHavingFunGuys Win At All Costs]] tournament lists with which to try to slaughter other such people. Both sides have since been placated somewhat by an optional supplement that has rules for competitive gaming, and points values.
26th Mar '16 5:48:31 PM WhatRayDid
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** Fifth edition is something of an aversion now that it's been released, having a smaller fan-base than most previous editions but having almost no hate-dom at all.
27th Oct '15 5:13:59 PM HereticalShinigami
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** Recent adherence to release of large Monstrous Creature models over the usual squad-based and vehicle-heavy 40k also has some players annoyed. Imperial Knights, Wraithknights and especially Riptide battlesuits have been appearing on tables in greater numbers, much to the chagrin of players who can't afford a horde of massive creatures. Similar things have also occurred with flyers, which were initially almost invulnerable against ground forces until GW repealed that ban. Still, the late focus on the Tau, who were originally the anime tie-in of the 41st Millenium, has some players crying for a redress, since battlesuit armies are on the rise.
** Other players are also frustrated by the removal of the force organisation chart that originally bound army compositions. Now, players receive a bonus for adhering to the chart, but are otherwise 'unbound', allowing some players to simply field columns of tanks or titans against their opponents. Needless to say, cries of Pay-to-win are not few and far between.
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