History SlidingScaleOfIdealismVersusCynicism / AnimeAndManga

21st Sep '16 5:50:36 AM matteste
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* The works of Koichi Ohata have a few genuinely good examples of anime of being very, very cynical to the point they could be considered nihilistic. ''Genocyber'' and ''Anime/MDGeist'' are both the most notable items.

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* The works of Koichi Ohata have a few genuinely good examples of anime of being very, very cynical to the point they could be considered nihilistic. ''Genocyber'' ''Anime/{{Genocyber}}'' and ''Anime/MDGeist'' are both the most notable items.items. ''Anime/CyberneticsGuardian'' however by contrast ends up much more idealistic than his usual fare.
16th Sep '16 10:26:46 AM FF32
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* Like ''Anime/{{Akira}}'', ''Anime/KotouraSan'' starts out on the incredibly cynical side of the spectrum, but gradually becomes more and more idealistic as the TwelveEpisodeAnime progresses on.

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* Like ''Anime/{{Akira}}'', ''Manga/{{Akira}}'', ''Anime/KotouraSan'' starts out on the incredibly cynical side of the spectrum, but gradually becomes more and more idealistic as the TwelveEpisodeAnime progresses on.
4th Sep '16 5:54:16 PM Knightofbalance
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*** Just as well, ''Gurren Lagann'' has quite a bit more of cynicism than the occasional ShootTheDog moment. While you may have freedom, rampant freedom will lead to destruction [[spoiler: explained in said NiceJobBreakingItHero.]] While you may seem like a hero, it's all subjective and you could just as easily become the villian, shown when it's revealed [[spoiler: the villian's are NotSoDifferent from the humans.]] While the PowerOfFriendship is strong, it can be turned against the heroes, [[spoiler: like from Simon's HeroicBSOD from Kamina's death and his hestiation from fighting due to Nia's capture.]] Although being a {{Determinator}} is great and all but being that stubborn will never lead anywhere good [[spoiler: like in the BadFuture shown in the beginning.]] If ''Evangelion'' broke the scale, ''Gurren Lagann'' [[UpToEleven broke the scale and rebuilt it.]] It's not so much as the ''Anti-Eva'' as it is [[DeconReconSwitch ''Eva'' and ''FLCL's'']] [[SpiritualSuccessor child.]]

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*** Just as well, ''Gurren Lagann'' has quite a bit more of cynicism than the occasional ShootTheDog moment. While you may have freedom, rampant freedom will lead to destruction [[spoiler: explained in said NiceJobBreakingItHero.]] While you may seem like a hero, it's all subjective and you could just as easily become the villian, shown when it's revealed [[spoiler: the villian's are NotSoDifferent from the humans.]] While the PowerOfFriendship is strong, it can be turned against the heroes, [[spoiler: like from Simon's HeroicBSOD from Kamina's death and his hestiation from fighting due to Nia's capture.]] Although being a {{Determinator}} is great and all but being that stubborn will never lead anywhere good [[spoiler: like in the BadFuture shown in the beginning.]] If ''Evangelion'' broke the scale, ''Gurren Lagann'' [[UpToEleven broke the scale again and rebuilt it.]] It's not so much as the ''Anti-Eva'' as it is [[DeconReconSwitch ''Eva'' Eva and ''FLCL's'']] FLCL's]] [[SpiritualSuccessor child.]]
4th Sep '16 5:52:58 PM Knightofbalance
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*** Just as well, ''Gurren Lagann'' has quite a bit more of cynicism than the occasional ShootTheDog moment. While you may have freedom, rampant freedom will lead to destruction [[spoiler: explained in said NiceJobBreakingItHero.]] While you may seem like a hero, it's all subjective and you could just as easily become the villian, shown when it's revealed [[spoiler: the villian's are NotSoDifferent from the humans.]] While the PowerOfFriendship is strong, it can be turned against the heroes, [[spoiler: like from Simon's HeroicBSOD from Kamina's death and his hestiation from fighting due to Nia's capture.]] Although being a {{Determinator}} is great and all but being that stubborn will never lead anywhere good [[spoiler: like in the BadFuture shown in the beginning.]] If ''Evangelion'' broke the scale, ''Gurren Lagann'' [[UpToEleven broke the scale and rebuilt it.]] It's not so much as the ''Anti-Eva'' as it is [[SpiritualSuccessor ''Eva'' and ''FLCL's'']] [[DeconReconSwitch child.]]

to:

*** Just as well, ''Gurren Lagann'' has quite a bit more of cynicism than the occasional ShootTheDog moment. While you may have freedom, rampant freedom will lead to destruction [[spoiler: explained in said NiceJobBreakingItHero.]] While you may seem like a hero, it's all subjective and you could just as easily become the villian, shown when it's revealed [[spoiler: the villian's are NotSoDifferent from the humans.]] While the PowerOfFriendship is strong, it can be turned against the heroes, [[spoiler: like from Simon's HeroicBSOD from Kamina's death and his hestiation from fighting due to Nia's capture.]] Although being a {{Determinator}} is great and all but being that stubborn will never lead anywhere good [[spoiler: like in the BadFuture shown in the beginning.]] If ''Evangelion'' broke the scale, ''Gurren Lagann'' [[UpToEleven broke the scale and rebuilt it.]] It's not so much as the ''Anti-Eva'' as it is [[SpiritualSuccessor [[DeconReconSwitch ''Eva'' and ''FLCL's'']] [[DeconReconSwitch [[SpiritualSuccessor child.]]
4th Sep '16 5:52:11 PM Knightofbalance
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*** Just as well, ''Gurren Lagann'' has quite a bit more of cynicism than the occasional ShootTheDog moment. While you may have freedom, rampant freedom will lead to destruction [[spoiler: explained in said NiceJobBreakingItHero.]] While you may seem like a hero, it's all subjective and you could just as easily become the villian, shown when it's revealed [[spoiler: the villian's are NotSoDifferent from the humans.]] While the PowerOfFriendship is strong, it can be turned against the heroes, [[spoiler: like from Simon's HeroicBSOD from Kamina's death and his hestiation from fighting due to Nia's capture.]] Although being a {{Determinator}} is great and all but being that stubborn will never lead anywhere good [[spoiler: like in the BadFuture shown in the beginning.]] If ''Evangelion'' broke the scale, ''Gurren Lagann'' [[UpToEleven broke the scale and rebuilt it.]] It's not so much as the ''Anti-Eva'' as it is [[SpiritualAntithesis Eva]] [[SpiritualSuccessor and FlCL's]] [[DeconReconSwitch child.]]

to:

*** Just as well, ''Gurren Lagann'' has quite a bit more of cynicism than the occasional ShootTheDog moment. While you may have freedom, rampant freedom will lead to destruction [[spoiler: explained in said NiceJobBreakingItHero.]] While you may seem like a hero, it's all subjective and you could just as easily become the villian, shown when it's revealed [[spoiler: the villian's are NotSoDifferent from the humans.]] While the PowerOfFriendship is strong, it can be turned against the heroes, [[spoiler: like from Simon's HeroicBSOD from Kamina's death and his hestiation from fighting due to Nia's capture.]] Although being a {{Determinator}} is great and all but being that stubborn will never lead anywhere good [[spoiler: like in the BadFuture shown in the beginning.]] If ''Evangelion'' broke the scale, ''Gurren Lagann'' [[UpToEleven broke the scale and rebuilt it.]] It's not so much as the ''Anti-Eva'' as it is [[SpiritualAntithesis Eva]] [[SpiritualSuccessor ''Eva'' and FlCL's]] ''FLCL's'']] [[DeconReconSwitch child.]]
4th Sep '16 5:51:10 PM Knightofbalance
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*** Just as well, ''Gurren Lagann'' has guite a bit more of cynicism than the occasional ShootTheDog moment. While you may have freedom, rampant freedom will lead to destruction [[spoiler: explained in said NiceJobBreakingItHero.]] While you may seem like a hero, it's all subjective and you could just as easily become the villian, shown when it's revealed [[spoiler: the villian's are NotSoDifferent from the humans.]] While the PowerOfFriendship is strong, it can be turned against the heroes, [[spoiler: like from Simon's HeroicBSOD from Kamina's death and his hestiation from fighting due to Nia's capture.]] Although being a {{Determinator}} is great and all but being that stubborn will never lead anywhere good [[spoiler: like in the BadFuture shown in the beginning.]] If ''Evangelion'' broke the scale, ''Gurren Lagann'' [[UpToEleven broke the scale and rebuilt it.]] It's not so much as the ''Anti-Eva'' as it is [[SpiritualAntithesis Eva]] [[SpiritualSuccessor and FlCL's]] [[DeconReconSwitch child.]]

to:

*** Just as well, ''Gurren Lagann'' has guite quite a bit more of cynicism than the occasional ShootTheDog moment. While you may have freedom, rampant freedom will lead to destruction [[spoiler: explained in said NiceJobBreakingItHero.]] While you may seem like a hero, it's all subjective and you could just as easily become the villian, shown when it's revealed [[spoiler: the villian's are NotSoDifferent from the humans.]] While the PowerOfFriendship is strong, it can be turned against the heroes, [[spoiler: like from Simon's HeroicBSOD from Kamina's death and his hestiation from fighting due to Nia's capture.]] Although being a {{Determinator}} is great and all but being that stubborn will never lead anywhere good [[spoiler: like in the BadFuture shown in the beginning.]] If ''Evangelion'' broke the scale, ''Gurren Lagann'' [[UpToEleven broke the scale and rebuilt it.]] It's not so much as the ''Anti-Eva'' as it is [[SpiritualAntithesis Eva]] [[SpiritualSuccessor and FlCL's]] [[DeconReconSwitch child.]]
4th Sep '16 5:50:31 PM Knightofbalance
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*** Just as well, ''Gurren Lagann'' has guite a bit more of cynicism than the occasional ShootTheDog moment. While you may have freedom, rampant freedom will lead to destruction [[spoiler: explained in said NiceJobBreakingItHero.]] While you may seem like a hero, it's all subjective and you could just as easily become the villian, shown when it's revealed [[spoiler: the villian's are NotSoDifferent from the humans.]] While the PowerOfFriendship is strong, it can be turned against the heroes, [[spoiler: like from Simon's HeroicBSOD from Kamina's death and his hestiation from fighting due to Nia's capture.]] Although being a {{Determinator}} is great and all but being that stubborn will never lead anywhere good [[spoiler: like in the BadFuture shown in the beginning.]] If ''Evangelion'' broke teh scale, ''Gurren Lagann'' b[[UpToEleven broke the scale and rebuilt it.]] It's not so much as the ''Anti-Eva'' as it is [[SpiritualAntithesis Eva]] [[SpiritualSuccessor and FlCL's]] [[DeconReconSwitch child.]]

to:

*** Just as well, ''Gurren Lagann'' has guite a bit more of cynicism than the occasional ShootTheDog moment. While you may have freedom, rampant freedom will lead to destruction [[spoiler: explained in said NiceJobBreakingItHero.]] While you may seem like a hero, it's all subjective and you could just as easily become the villian, shown when it's revealed [[spoiler: the villian's are NotSoDifferent from the humans.]] While the PowerOfFriendship is strong, it can be turned against the heroes, [[spoiler: like from Simon's HeroicBSOD from Kamina's death and his hestiation from fighting due to Nia's capture.]] Although being a {{Determinator}} is great and all but being that stubborn will never lead anywhere good [[spoiler: like in the BadFuture shown in the beginning.]] If ''Evangelion'' broke teh the scale, ''Gurren Lagann'' b[[UpToEleven [[UpToEleven broke the scale and rebuilt it.]] It's not so much as the ''Anti-Eva'' as it is [[SpiritualAntithesis Eva]] [[SpiritualSuccessor and FlCL's]] [[DeconReconSwitch child.]]
4th Sep '16 5:48:47 PM Knightofbalance
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Added DiffLines:

** In all actuality, ''Anime/{{FLCL}}'' (Also made by Studio Gainax) is more akin to being the ''Anti-Eva'' since [[WhiteAndGrayMorality there is no defined villian]], [[CharacterDevelopment A great deal of the characters grow out of their flaws]] and get a mostly HappyEnding. Both were also made in very similar circumstances, with both Hideaki Anno and the rest of Studio Gainax both went through bouts of depression. However, since ''Evangelion'' was responsible for depressing Gainax, through Newton's Third Law, it's counterpart ''FLCL'' was made shortly afterward to counteract it.
*** Just as well, ''Gurren Lagann'' has guite a bit more of cynicism than the occasional ShootTheDog moment. While you may have freedom, rampant freedom will lead to destruction [[spoiler: explained in said NiceJobBreakingItHero.]] While you may seem like a hero, it's all subjective and you could just as easily become the villian, shown when it's revealed [[spoiler: the villian's are NotSoDifferent from the humans.]] While the PowerOfFriendship is strong, it can be turned against the heroes, [[spoiler: like from Simon's HeroicBSOD from Kamina's death and his hestiation from fighting due to Nia's capture.]] Although being a {{Determinator}} is great and all but being that stubborn will never lead anywhere good [[spoiler: like in the BadFuture shown in the beginning.]] If ''Evangelion'' broke teh scale, ''Gurren Lagann'' b[[UpToEleven broke the scale and rebuilt it.]] It's not so much as the ''Anti-Eva'' as it is [[SpiritualAntithesis Eva]] [[SpiritualSuccessor and FlCL's]] [[DeconReconSwitch child.]]
5th Aug '16 6:21:33 PM n0321
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* The ''Franchise/{{Gundam}}'' franchise is all over the scale with ''[[Anime/MobileSuitZetaGundam Zeta Gundam]]'', ''[[Anime/MobileSuitGundam0080WarInThePocket Gundam 0080]]'', ''[[Anime/MobileSuitGundam0083StardustMemory Gundam 0083]]'', ''[[Anime/MobileSuitVictoryGundam Victory Gundam]]'', ''[[Anime/MobileSuitGundamSeed Gundam SEED]]'', ''[[Anime/MobileSuitGundamMSIgloo MS Igloo]]'' and ''Anime/MobileSuitGundamAGE'' as the most cynical, ''[[Anime/MobileFighterGGundam G Gundam]]'', ''[[Anime/MobileSuitGundamWing Gundam Wing]]'', ''[[Anime/AfterWarGundamX Gundam X]]'', ''Anime/TurnAGundam'' and ''[[Anime/MobileSuitGundam00 Gundam 00]]'' as the most idealistic and rest like the original ''Anime/MobileSuitGundam'', ''Anime/MobileSuitGundamThe08thMSTeam '', ''[[Anime/MobileSuitGundamZZ Gundam ZZ]]'', and ''[[Anime/MobileSuitGundamSeedDestiny Gundam SEED Destiny]]'' somewhere in the middle.
** In general, the Universal Century is widely regarded as the most cynical, affected by Tomino's [[CreatorBreakdown battle with depression]], conflict with Sunrise, and hatred of Japan's actions and attitude towards UsefulNotes/WorldWarII. It's a continual cycle of FromBadToWorse and KillEmAll, though it has a tendency to flip-flop to idealistic from time to time, as evidenced best by the massive ToneShift between ''[[Anime/MobileSuitZetaGundam Zeta Gundam]]'' and ''[[Anime/MobileSuitGundamZZ Gundam ZZ]]'' and the ones in some of the [=OVAs=] and Compilation Movies.

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* The ''Franchise/{{Gundam}}'' franchise is all over the scale with ''[[Anime/MobileSuitZetaGundam Zeta Gundam]]'', ''[[Anime/MobileSuitGundam0080WarInThePocket Gundam 0080]]'', ''[[Anime/MobileSuitGundam0083StardustMemory Gundam 0083]]'', ''[[Anime/MobileSuitVictoryGundam Victory Gundam]]'', ''[[Anime/MobileSuitGundamSeed Gundam SEED]]'', ''[[Anime/MobileSuitGundamMSIgloo MS Igloo]]'' and ''Anime/MobileSuitGundamAGE'' as leaning to the most cynical, cynical side, ''[[Anime/MobileFighterGGundam G Gundam]]'', ''[[Anime/MobileSuitGundamWing Gundam Wing]]'', ''[[Anime/AfterWarGundamX Gundam X]]'', ''Anime/TurnAGundam'' and ''[[Anime/MobileSuitGundam00 Gundam 00]]'' as to the most idealistic side, and the rest like the original ''Anime/MobileSuitGundam'', ''Anime/MobileSuitGundamThe08thMSTeam '', ''[[Anime/MobileSuitGundamZZ Gundam ZZ]]'', and ''[[Anime/MobileSuitGundamSeedDestiny Gundam SEED Destiny]]'' falling somewhere in the middle.
** In general, the Universal Century is widely regarded as the most cynical, affected by cynical timeline because of Tomino's [[CreatorBreakdown battle combat with depression]], conflict with Sunrise, and hatred of against Japan's actions and attitude towards UsefulNotes/WorldWarII. It's a continual cycle of FromBadToWorse and KillEmAll, KillEmAll even though it has a tendency to flip-flop to idealistic from time to time, as evidenced best by the massive ToneShift between ''[[Anime/MobileSuitZetaGundam Zeta Gundam]]'' and ''[[Anime/MobileSuitGundamZZ Gundam ZZ]]'' and the ones in some of the [=OVAs=] and Compilation Movies.



** [[Anime/AfterWarGundamX The After War era]] starts off as a CrapsackWorld in the culimination of an apocalyptic war and a mass ColonyDrop leading to the death of 99% of the human race, and everyone trying to survive by whatever means necessary, however it gets much better. In the end, the Frost Brothers are defeated, the Satellite System is destroyed, the myth of Newtypes as weapons of war or the next step of human evolution, which drove the world-ending war in the first place is refuted, the warmongering leaders of the New Earth Federation and the Space Colonies are both wiped out (by the [[NiceJobFixingItVillain Frost Brothers]]) and the remnants of the governments finally making peace with each other, and the various protagonists all survive in a world that is gradually recovering, making this one of the most idealistic series in the franchise to date.
** The [[Anime/MobileSuitGundamSEED Cosmic]] [[Anime/MobileSuitGundamSEEDDestiny Era]] is pretty much the darkest of the non UC Gundam universes, with [[OnlySaneMan Kira, Lacus, Athrun and their friends]] [[HumansAreBastards being the only thing]] that kept humanity from destroying itself. When they weren't there, well as [[WoobieDestroyerofWorlds Rau Le Creuset]] summarizes life in CE:

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** [[Anime/AfterWarGundamX The After War era]] starts off as a CrapsackWorld in the culimination of an apocalyptic war and a mass ColonyDrop leading to the death of 99% of the human race, and everyone trying to survive by whatever means necessary, however necessary. However, it gets much better. In the end, the Frost Brothers are defeated, the Satellite System is destroyed, the myth of Newtypes as weapons of war or the next step of human evolution, which drove the world-ending war in the first place place, is refuted, and the warmongering leaders of the New Earth Federation and the Space Colonies are both wiped out (by the [[NiceJobFixingItVillain Frost Brothers]]) and Brothers]]). Ultimately, the remnants of the governments finally making make peace with each other, and the various protagonists all survive in a world that is gradually recovering, making this one of the most idealistic series in the franchise to date.
** The [[Anime/MobileSuitGundamSEED Cosmic]] [[Anime/MobileSuitGundamSEEDDestiny Era]] is pretty much widely considered as the darkest of the non UC non-UC Gundam universes, timelines, with [[OnlySaneMan Kira, Lacus, Athrun and their friends]] [[HumansAreBastards being the only thing]] ones]] that kept keep humanity from destroying itself. When they weren't aren't there, well as summarized by [[WoobieDestroyerofWorlds Rau Le Creuset]] summarizes regarding the life in CE:



** The first season of [[Anime/MobileSuitGundam00 Anno Domini]] starts as cynical. The heroes are part of what is arguably a terrorist organization trying to end war by brute force, and all of them are [[DarkAndTroubledPast deeply scarred]] in one way or another. Governments are corrupt and [[DownerEnding the first part ends on a decidedly unhappy note]]. In the second season, idealism begins to triumph over the angst episode by episode, followed by [[BittersweetEnding a cautiously upbeat ending]]. [[Anime/Gundam00AWakeningOfTheTrailblazer The Movie]] moves this timeline firmly on the idealistic end, showing that even the most war-weary of soldiers can find true understanding, even if it takes a long time to do so.
** The [[Anime/MobileSuitGundamAge Advanced Generation]] slides down towards cynical over the show's three-generation timespan, with Flit Asuno going from WideEyedIdealist to KnightTemplar, Asemu deciding that the only way to keep both sides from destroying each other is to keep things at a stalemated ForeverWar, and Kio's attempts to connect with his foes meeting with repeated failure. The Vagans, meanwhile, see-saw from [[HiddenAgendaVillain enigmatic villains]] to [[AntiVillain legitimately aggreived]] and then back to unsympathetic with TheReveal of their leader's true goal and ultimately all perishes for it. Although at the surface it seems to slide back into idealism at the end, it is at best a BittersweetEnding for the finale.

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** The first season of [[Anime/MobileSuitGundam00 Anno Domini]] starts as cynical.a cynical story. The heroes are part of what is arguably a terrorist organization trying to end war by brute force, and all of them are [[DarkAndTroubledPast deeply scarred]] in one way or another. Governments are corrupt corrupt, and war-crazy monsters are powerful and dangerous. [[DownerEnding As a result, the first part season ends on a decidedly unhappy note]]. In the second season, idealism begins to triumph over the angst episode by episode, followed by [[BittersweetEnding a cautiously upbeat ending]]. [[Anime/Gundam00AWakeningOfTheTrailblazer The Movie]] moves this timeline firmly on the idealistic end, showing that even the most war-weary of soldiers can find true understanding, understanding even if it takes a long time to do so.
** The As a sharp contrast to the AD timeline, the [[Anime/MobileSuitGundamAge Advanced Generation]] slides down towards cynical complete cynicism over the show's three-generation timespan, with Flit Asuno going from WideEyedIdealist to KnightTemplar, Asemu deciding that the only way to keep both sides from destroying each other is to keep things at a stalemated ForeverWar, and Kio's attempts to connect with his foes meeting met with repeated failure. The Vagans, meanwhile, see-saw from [[HiddenAgendaVillain enigmatic villains]] to [[AntiVillain legitimately aggreived]] and then back to unsympathetic with TheReveal of their leader's true goal goal, and ultimately all perishes perish for it.it -- ultimately. Although at the surface it seems to slide back into idealism at the end, it is at best a BittersweetEnding for the finale.
1st Jul '16 2:32:19 PM UmbrellasWereAwesome
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* In HumongousMecha series, RealRobot series tend to fall more toward cynical, while SuperRobot series fall more toward idealistic.



* In HumongousMecha series, RealRobot series tend to fall more toward cynical, while SuperRobot series fall more toward idealistic.
* Despite this, ''Anime/{{Macross 7}}'', a Real Robots series, is about as idealistic as it gets. During the first few episodes, the main character looks like a fish-out-of-water ActualPacifist trying to end a space war by SINGING AT PEOPLE while they're killing each other and one side is [[spoiler: eating the other's souls in order to fully awaken {{Eldritch Abomination}}s that will bring about TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt]]. And, at the end, [[HeelFaceTurn it works]] [[RedemptionEarnsLife in the best way possible]].
** The ''Macross'' franchise in general is very much on the idealistic end of the scale with its themes of how understanding, love and music can overcome all odds and convert the most alien of foes into friends.
* Conversely, some of Creator/YoshiyukiTomino's entries into the SuperRobot genre, namely ''Anime/{{Zambot 3}}'' and ''Anime/SpaceRunawayIdeon'' contain elements that subvert the idealism and BlackAndWhiteMorality of other SuperRobot shows [[spoiler:not to mention incorporating KillEmAll endings, as per his nickname]]. For instance, in ''Zambot 3'', the protagonists of the Jin family are not praised for their efforts for the majority of the series, but are instead condemned as the cause of the problem. Somewhat justified, seeing as the populace is rather uninformed, and Zambot 3, like any other HumongousMecha, causes a fair bit of property damage and human casualties in its own right. Most series just choose not to address it. Additionally, it is implied in ''Ideon'' that [[spoiler:the Ide was just using the crew that defends it in an EvilPlan to cause TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt.]] Suffice it to say, while ''Ideon'' is infamously cynical, ''Zambot 3'' could at least be seen as having a BittersweetEnding depending on how one interprets [[spoiler:the Gaizok being defeated at the cost of the lives of all but one protagonist, along with the populace coming around to recognize the Zambot pilots as heroes.]]

to:

* In HumongousMecha series, RealRobot series tend to fall more toward cynical, while SuperRobot series fall more toward idealistic.
* Despite this,
''Anime/{{Macross 7}}'', a Real Robots series, which straddles the line between RealRobot and SuperRobot, is about as idealistic as it gets. During the first few episodes, the main character looks like a fish-out-of-water ActualPacifist trying to end a space war by SINGING AT PEOPLE while they're killing each other and one side is [[spoiler: eating the other's souls in order to fully awaken {{Eldritch Abomination}}s that will bring about TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt]]. And, at the end, [[HeelFaceTurn it works]] [[RedemptionEarnsLife in the best way possible]].
** The ''Macross'' ''Anime/{{Macross}}'' franchise in general is very much on the idealistic end of the scale with its themes of how understanding, love and music can overcome all odds and convert the most alien of foes into friends.
* Conversely, some Some of Creator/YoshiyukiTomino's entries into the SuperRobot genre, namely ''Anime/{{Zambot 3}}'' and ''Anime/SpaceRunawayIdeon'' contain elements that subvert the idealism and BlackAndWhiteMorality of other SuperRobot shows [[spoiler:not to mention incorporating KillEmAll endings, as per his nickname]]. For instance, in ''Zambot 3'', the protagonists of the Jin family are not praised for their efforts for the majority of the series, but are instead condemned as the cause of the problem. Somewhat justified, seeing as the populace is rather uninformed, and Zambot 3, like any other HumongousMecha, causes a fair bit of property damage and human casualties in its own right. Most series just choose not to address it. Additionally, it is implied in ''Ideon'' that [[spoiler:the Ide was just using the crew that defends it in an EvilPlan to cause TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt.]] Suffice it to say, while ''Ideon'' is infamously cynical, ''Zambot 3'' could at least be seen as having a BittersweetEnding depending on how one interprets [[spoiler:the Gaizok being defeated at the cost of the lives of all but one protagonist, along with the populace coming around to recognize the Zambot pilots as heroes.]]
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=SlidingScaleOfIdealismVersusCynicism.AnimeAndManga