History Main / UtopiaJustifiestheMeans

7th Apr '16 1:01:39 PM Love777
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* In ''Fanfic/PonyPOV'' Princess [[spoiler:Gaia/Nightmare Whisper]] is an interesting example of this. She wants everyone to be happy (what with being [[spoiler:Fluttershy]]), and while she's not as extreme as many other examples of the trope, she does think that anyone who isn't happy must be FORCED to be happy, and that in order to achieve this goal, [[spoiler:[[BrainwashingForTheGreaterGood magically turning ponies into foals in both body and mind]] ]]is a-ok! In an even straighter example of this trope, her Knight [[spoiler:Cherilee]] actually attempts to KILL the Mane Six because they were distrupting [[spoiler:Gaia's LotusEaterMachine]].
5th Apr '16 10:28:33 PM TheGreatSkrond
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* ''Literature/{{Fahrenheit 451}}'' is a classic example, where a ''utopia'' is created by [[spoiler:banning books, funerals, weddings, and anything that causes an emotional reaction]].
3rd Mar '16 10:15:45 AM Morgenthaler
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* Some comics suggest (and, in at least one case, demonstrate) that allowing Doctor Doom to conquer the Earth will result in a utopia. Doom's a despot and a tyrant at the best of times, and another consequence of Dr. Doom taking over the Earth is the complete eradication of any kind of free will and immediate and total subservience to Doom's wishes, so this may not be as great as it seems.
** There's also the problem that he tends to get ''bored'' with utopia, as he's the sort that would rather be ''conquering'' than reigning over what he has.

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* ''ComicBook/TheFantasticFour'': Some comics suggest (and, in at least one case, demonstrate) that allowing Doctor Doom to conquer the Earth will result in a utopia. Doom's a despot and a tyrant at the best of times, and another consequence of Dr. Doom taking over the Earth is the complete eradication of any kind of free will and immediate and total subservience to Doom's wishes, so this may not be as great as it seems.
**
seems. There's also the problem that he tends to get ''bored'' with utopia, as he's the sort that would rather be ''conquering'' than reigning over what he has.
1st Mar '16 9:47:57 PM SoapheadChurch
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** Also, in ''Anime/MobileSuitGundamSeedDestiny'', Gilbert Durandal's plan was to create a society completely ruled by genetic determinism, where everyone would be forced to the endeavors for which he/she was genetically apt at. And if someone has to be sacrificed and some countries have to be destroyed with a WaveMotionGun...well, it's sad but necessary to create a world without war and without pain. Fan opinions remain [[InternetBackdraft divided]] on whether he was in the right or not.
*** The Chairman's Dragon, Rey Za Burrel, has this same mindset, and follows the Chairman because he believes that he will usher in the utopia. In the end, Rey has second thoughts about this after Kira convinces him that [[ClonesArePeopleToo he is his own man and not just a clone.]] [[spoiler:Rey chooses Kira's hope for a future with freedom over the Destiny Plan and guns down Durandal to save Kira.]]
*** Genetic determinism in a world where a good chunk of the population are genetically-enhanced humans [[FridgeLogic really means]] that the Coordinators are genetically-inclined towards having the good jobs (i.e. those requiring advanced skills/reflexes/intelligence like mobile suit pilots or technicians) and normal humans are more genetically-inclined to manual labor. Some utopia.
*** It was case of communistic/socialistic thinking. We determine what you can do by your genes, we educate you on how to use your talents, and we give you jobs that perfectly suit you, so the whole society can run perfectly, and that's better for you than the broken system where no one knows what they are supposed to do and waste their potential, or even doesn't have anything to do. In basic theory, it isn't evil, and is only wrong in practice because, as side effect, it would eliminate people's initiative to improve themselves and give opportunity to corruption by falsifying test results, which would, in the end, break the system.
*** It's the "determine what you can do by your genes" part that's the whole problem; Coordinators ''by default'' are going to be better-suited for high-paying jobs that require advanced technical skills because their genetic enhancements make them better-suited for those positions than ordinary humans. The system is inherently skewed in favor of those with genetic enhancements.
*** The writers probably wanted to show that the main flaw of such a society would be a loss of freedom, thus making a dilemma of freedom vs. peace.
*** The point of the Destiny Plan is not to give anyone, even Coordinators, an unfair advantage and to make sure everyone was happy in their jobs. In fact, going by vague descriptions from Durandal and Rey, the idea is to end Natural/Coordinator conflict by determining what would fit them regardless of better genetics, since everyone would get a fair chance, thus making sure they are happy in theory. The idea that it can be used as such is clearly not what Durandal has in mind, but it does bring up a good flaw in how it can be used as such if it was implemented by the radicals of both sides. As for the main flaw concerning freedom, this really is the driving theme of the series. Should you be predestined to be something or have the freedom to do what you want?

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** Also, in * In ''Anime/MobileSuitGundamSeedDestiny'', Gilbert Durandal's plan was to create a society completely ruled by genetic determinism, where everyone would be forced to the endeavors for which he/she was genetically apt at. And if someone has to be sacrificed and some countries have to be destroyed with a WaveMotionGun...well, it's sad but necessary to create a world without war and without pain. Fan opinions remain [[InternetBackdraft divided]] on whether he was in the right or not.
***
not. The Chairman's Dragon, Rey Za Burrel, has this same mindset, and follows the Chairman because he believes that he will usher in the utopia. In the end, Rey has second thoughts about this after Kira convinces him that [[ClonesArePeopleToo he is his own man and not just a clone.]] [[spoiler:Rey chooses Kira's hope for a future with freedom over the Destiny Plan and guns down Durandal to save Kira.]]
*** Genetic determinism in a world where a good chunk of the population are genetically-enhanced humans [[FridgeLogic really means]] that the Coordinators are genetically-inclined towards having the good jobs (i.e. those requiring advanced skills/reflexes/intelligence like mobile suit pilots or technicians) and normal humans are more genetically-inclined to manual labor. Some utopia.
*** It was case of communistic/socialistic thinking. We determine what you can do by your genes, we educate you on how to use your talents, and we give you jobs that perfectly suit you, so the whole society can run perfectly, and that's better for you than the broken system where no one knows what they are supposed to do and waste their potential, or even doesn't have anything to do. In basic theory, it isn't evil, and is only wrong in practice because, as side effect, it would eliminate people's initiative to improve themselves and give opportunity to corruption by falsifying test results, which would, in the end, break the system.
*** It's the "determine what you can do by your genes" part that's the whole problem; Coordinators ''by default'' are going to be better-suited for high-paying jobs that require advanced technical skills because their genetic enhancements make them better-suited for those positions than ordinary humans. The system is inherently skewed in favor of those with genetic enhancements.
*** The writers probably wanted to show that the main flaw of such a society would be a loss of freedom, thus making a dilemma of freedom vs. peace.
*** The point of the Destiny Plan is not to give anyone, even Coordinators, an unfair advantage and to make sure everyone was happy in their jobs. In fact, going by vague descriptions from Durandal and Rey, the idea is to end Natural/Coordinator conflict by determining what would fit them regardless of better genetics, since everyone would get a fair chance, thus making sure they are happy in theory. The idea that it can be used as such is clearly not what Durandal has in mind, but it does bring up a good flaw in how it can be used as such if it was implemented by the radicals of both sides. As for the main flaw concerning freedom, this really is the driving theme of the series. Should you be predestined to be something or have the freedom to do what you want?
]]
1st Mar '16 6:55:23 PM MagBas
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* ''Literature/TheTurnerDiaries'' (written by a Neo Nazi) has protagonists who want to take what they consider a CrapsackWorld (one with private ownership of guns outlawed, minorities having rights and "oppressing" the pure, white people), and they plan to replace that [[VillainWorld with a world that has everyone but the white people dead and the only survivors will be fanatical white supremacists]], but only after [[CrapsackWorld they use nuclear, chemical and biological weapons to kill everyone else they don't like, even if it means rendering most of the world uninhabitable.]]
1st Mar '16 6:21:24 PM Onlythrice
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** [[PlayerCharacter Couriers]] of ''all'' alignments will veer into this in the Independent Path. [[spoiler: For example, while New Vegas transitions into an independent city-state relatively peacefully, the local Brotherhood of Steel chapter will attempt to take advantage of the lack of NCR presence to retake HELIOS ONE, as well as begin attacking caravans on the highway. The only way to avoid this ending is to [[KillEmAll wipe out]] the ''entire'' Brotherhood]].

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** [[PlayerCharacter Couriers]] of ''all'' alignments will veer into this in the Independent Path. [[spoiler: For example, while New Vegas transitions into an independent city-state relatively peacefully, the local Brotherhood of Steel chapter will attempt to take advantage of the lack of NCR presence to retake HELIOS ONE, as well as begin attacking caravans monitoring trade on the highway. highway in order to seize energy weapons and other advanced technology for themselves. The only way to avoid this ending is to [[KillEmAll wipe out]] the ''entire'' Brotherhood]].Brotherhood or side with Caesar's Legion]].
8th Feb '16 7:16:20 AM ZarbiNerada
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* ''Literature/TheTurnerDiaries'' (written by a Neo Nazi) has protagonists who want to take what they consider a CrapsackWorld (one with private ownership of guns outlawed, minorities having rights and "oppressing" the pure, white people), and they plan to replace that [[VillainWorld with a world that has everyone but the white people dead and the only survivors will be fanatical white supremacists]], but only after [[CrapsackWorld they use nuclear, chemical and biological weapons to kill everyone else they don't like, even if it means rendering most of the world uninhabitable.]]
7th Feb '16 2:02:54 PM nombretomado
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* TheKnightsTemplar in ''VideoGame/AssassinsCreedI'' and ''VideoGame/AssassinsCreedIII'' plan to [[spoiler:control the world using LostTechnology from [[{{Precursors}} Those Who Came Before]]. Vidic, lamenting how people in [[TheCrusades 1191]] are no different in manner from the people of [[TwentyMinutesIntoTheFuture 2012]], says that the world needs a sense of order, [[TheEvilsOfFreeWill even if it means giving up freedom]].]]

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* TheKnightsTemplar in ''VideoGame/AssassinsCreedI'' and ''VideoGame/AssassinsCreedIII'' plan to [[spoiler:control the world using LostTechnology from [[{{Precursors}} Those Who Came Before]]. Vidic, lamenting how people in [[TheCrusades [[UsefulNotes/TheCrusades 1191]] are no different in manner from the people of [[TwentyMinutesIntoTheFuture 2012]], says that the world needs a sense of order, [[TheEvilsOfFreeWill even if it means giving up freedom]].]]
29th Jan '16 6:15:05 AM Shadowgazer
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* The One Ring in ''Literature/TheLordOfTheRings'' offers everyone who comes near it a vision of a world bowing to them as a great and mighty lord. The hobbits are able to resist its effects solely [[WhatKindOfLamePowerIsHeartAnyway due to their humility]]. Admittedly, if you were smaller than even your average ''dwarf'', you would probably find it hard to see yourself as some kind of Evil Overlord as well.

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* The One Ring in ''Literature/TheLordOfTheRings'' offers everyone who comes near it a vision of a world bowing to them as a great and mighty lord. The lord (not necessarily an Utopian though). Most hobbits are able to resist its effects solely [[WhatKindOfLamePowerIsHeartAnyway due to their humility]]. Admittedly, if you were smaller than even your average ''dwarf'', you would probably find it hard to see yourself as some kind of Evil Overlord as well. And even then the extent of the Ring's influence varies from Hobbit to Hobbit...


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** Gandalf warns specifically against using the One Ring to fight Sauron and make a better world. Because it was made with all of Sauron's greed, malice and desire to corrupt and control it takes all selfish aspects of its Bearer and amplifies them, twisting even good desires into pride and despotism.
26th Jan '16 2:06:49 AM Anddrix
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* David from ''Literature/{{Allegiant}}''. [[spoiler:All he wants is for humanity to return back to their natural state, which is done by having more genetically pure children born from genetically damaged families inside the walled cities. Yet he's willing to take away the free will of ''hundreds and thousands of people'', '''many times over''', just to achieve it]].
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