History Main / StrawmanHasAPoint

20th Feb '18 9:32:25 PM AnonFangeekGirl
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* A common villainous group in ''FanFic/TheConversionBureau'' fanfics, the Human Liberation Front (which doesn't exist in the original fanfic), see ponies as a threat to mankind -- and given that the ponies' goal is often the total extinction of humans, sometimes with side-orders of GettingSmiliesPaintedOnYourSoul (and for every fanfic that paints ponification as a [[NecessarilyEvil necessary evil]] and a last resort, there's several more that have the ponies intentionally creating the threat in order to force ponification), they are absolutely right. Anti-Conversion Bureau fics like ''Fanfic/TheConversionBureauNotAlone'' and ''FanFic/TheConversionBureauTheOtherSideOfTheSpectrum'' take this and run with it, portraying the bureau as villains, although notably, ''Other Side of the Spectrum'' doesn't portray the HLF as right -- they're basically the horribly-extremist anti-pony side, while the protagonists belong to a much more moderate anti-Equestrai faction.

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* A common villainous group in ''FanFic/TheConversionBureau'' fanfics, the Human Liberation Front (which doesn't exist in the original fanfic), see ponies as a threat to mankind -- and given that the ponies' goal is often the total extinction of humans, sometimes with side-orders of GettingSmiliesPaintedOnYourSoul (and for every fanfic that paints ponification as a [[NecessarilyEvil necessary evil]] and a last resort, there's several more that have the ponies intentionally creating the threat in order to force ponification), they are absolutely right. Anti-Conversion Bureau fics like ''Fanfic/TheConversionBureauNotAlone'' and ''FanFic/TheConversionBureauTheOtherSideOfTheSpectrum'' take this and run with it, portraying the bureau as villains, although notably, ''Other Side of the Spectrum'' doesn't portray the HLF as right -- they're basically the horribly-extremist anti-pony side, while the protagonists belong to a much more moderate anti-Equestrai anti-Equestria faction.



** Sokka brings an injured Azula into Toph's house and, when she wakes up, is revealed to be amnesiac. When Sokka confronts her, demanding to know what she's planning, she cries and stutters in disbelief and fear. The reader is obviously supposed to think Sokka is overreacting and much too harsh and suspicious of Azula. Yet, he had every right to be suspicious of her. In the series, Azula was repeatedly manipulative, great at disguising herself and lying to anyone, if it served her. There's no proof that she wasn't faking anything and would attack them, once their guard was down. But Sokka is the one being reprimanded.

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** Sokka brings an injured Azula into Toph's house and, when house, not knowing who she wakes up, is revealed to be amnesiac. is. It turns out that she has EasyAmnesia, and she wanders around the estate. When Sokka confronts finds her and recognizes her, demanding to know he immediately interrogates her about what she's planning, she cries doing at swordpoint. Azula is freaked out by the seemingly unprovoked attack, and stutters in disbelief and fear. The reader is obviously supposed to think Toph tells Sokka is overreacting off for attacking her before she even did anything. Thing is, canon!Azula was a ManipulativeBitch who was extremely good at deception, so Sokka comes off as being reasonably paranoid that Azula was using a WoundedGazelleGambit to get herself trusted by Team Avatar before she betrays them (like she did to the Earth King by having herself, Mai, and much too harsh Ty Lee replace the Kyoshi Warriors), and suspicious of Azula. Yet, he had every right to be suspicious of her. In the series, Azula was repeatedly manipulative, great at disguising herself and lying to anyone, if it served her. There's no proof that she wasn't faking anything and would attack them, once their guard was down. But Sokka is the one being reprimanded.she says because as she'd proven in ''Day of Black Sun'', Azula can fool [[LivingLieDetector Toph]].
19th Feb '18 10:14:32 AM BigJimbo
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* In ''WesternAnimation/{{Balto}} II: Wolf Quest'', the wise elder leader of the wolf pack, who Aleu is fascinated by, is meant to be the good guy. He is very spiritual and preaches accepting change and realizing that you will never know anything; contrasting this is a young, loud, warlike wolf who scoffs at his elder's spiritualism and argues that the pack has to fight to defend itself. The elder's talk of a vague "Grand Design" and not fearing change would probably be received better if the entire pack wasn't ''on the brink of starvation''. Admittedly, fighting a human development would not end well for the wolves, but... Spiritual Leader, ''why didn't you just say that in the first place?!''

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* In ''WesternAnimation/{{Balto}} II: Wolf Quest'', the wise elder leader of the wolf pack, who Aleu is fascinated by, is meant to be the good guy. He is very spiritual and preaches accepting change and realizing that you will never know anything; contrasting this is a young, loud, warlike wolf who scoffs at his elder's spiritualism and argues that the pack has to fight to defend itself. The elder's talk of a vague "Grand Design" and not fearing change would probably be received better if the entire pack wasn't ''on the brink of starvation''. Admittedly, fighting a human development would not end well for the wolves, but... Spiritual Leader, but one has to wonder ''why didn't you he just say that in the first place?!''place''.
19th Feb '18 12:24:28 AM TudorRose
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** In "Redecorating the Mertzes' Apartment", Lucy kindly offers to help Fred and Ethel fix up their apartment, with Ricky even agreeing to pay for all the materials. As Lucy and Ethel begin to reupholster an old chair by taking the feather stuffing out of it, Fred [[DidntThinkThisThrough plugs in a fan]] to get rid of the paint smell. Naturally this ends in disaster with feathers flying all over the place. Fred yells at Lucy about the mess "she" made and [[NeverMyFault blames her]] for ruining their apartment. "''I'' have?" she understandably fires back, but Ethel agrees with Fred and insists Lucy is to blame because it was all her idea to start with. In the end, the Ricardos are forced to give the Mertzes their furniture and so must pay to refurnish their own apartment. The audience is expected to accept that everything turned out fine.

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** In "Redecorating the Mertzes' Apartment", Lucy kindly offers to help Fred and Ethel fix up their apartment, with Ricky even agreeing to pay for all the materials. As Lucy and Ethel begin to reupholster an old chair by taking the feather stuffing out of it, Fred [[DidntThinkThisThrough plugs in a fan]] to get rid of the paint smell. Naturally this ends in disaster with feathers flying all over the place. Fred yells at Lucy about the mess "she" made and [[NeverMyFault blames her]] for ruining their apartment. "''I'' have?" she understandably fires back, but Ethel agrees with Fred and insists Lucy is to blame because it was all her idea to start with. She is supposedly in the wrong because she butted in. In the end, the Ricardos are forced to give the Mertzes their furniture and so must pay to refurnish their own apartment. The audience is expected to accept that everything turned out fine.
18th Feb '18 5:11:27 PM merotoker
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** On the topic of Obito, [[spoiler:Sasuke and Kakashi are prevented from finishing him off after he undergoes Naruto's famous [[TalkingTheMonsterToDeath Talk no Jutsu]] and loses the power of the Ten-Tails. While their attempt is cheered on the rest of the Shinobi Alliance, Naruto and Minato believe that Obito should be spared and repent for his actions instead. While Obito does end up helping the protagonists later on (providing Naruto with Kurama's Yin half after his Yang half is extracted by Naruto, and then retrieving Sasuke from the dimension that Kaguya threw him in), those situations would have never even come about if he'd been killed before Madara could resurrect himself by forcing Obito to use Rinne Tensei.]]

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** On the topic of Obito, [[spoiler:Sasuke and Kakashi are prevented from finishing him off after he undergoes Naruto's famous [[TalkingTheMonsterToDeath Talk no Jutsu]] and loses the power of the Ten-Tails. While their attempt is cheered on the rest of the Shinobi Alliance, Naruto and Minato believe that Obito should be spared and repent for his actions instead. While Obito does end up helping the protagonists later on (providing Naruto with Kurama's Yin half after his Yang half is extracted by Naruto, and then retrieving Sasuke from the dimension that Kaguya threw him in), those situations would have never even come about if he'd been killed before Madara could resurrect himself by forcing Obito to use Rinne Tensei.]]Tensei]].



** Mr. Akashi and Mr. Iwamoto are undoubtedly irredeemable jerks, but their attempts to get Yusuke and Kuwabara expelled aren't unjustified, as they weren't exactly model students. While Kuwabara made an effort to be a stright-A student and avoid his delinquent lifestyle, it was implied that Yusuke never improved his school life.

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** Mr. Akashi and Mr. Iwamoto are undoubtedly irredeemable jerks, but their attempts to get Yusuke and Kuwabara expelled aren't unjustified, as they weren't exactly model students. While Kuwabara made an effort to be a stright-A straight-A student and avoid his delinquent lifestyle, it was implied that Yusuke never improved his school life.



** Likewise, another insident like this happens earlier. Namely when Emi reveals her reason for hating Maou, the fact that his army burned down her village and killed her father. He gives a half halfassed apology and remarks that humans and demons have never gotten along anyway. As insenstive as it is one can't really aruge with that kind of logic. People do horrible things to each other in wars all the time.

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** Likewise, another insident incident like this happens earlier. Namely when Emi reveals her reason for hating Maou, the fact that his army burned down her village and killed her father. He gives a half halfassed apology and remarks that humans and demons have never gotten along anyway. As insenstive as it is one can't really aruge with that kind of logic. People do horrible things to each other in wars all the time.



** In anti-reg books, SHIELD [[MutantDraftBoard forcibly conscripted anyone who happened to have any kind of superpowers]] whether they wanted to fight crime or not, and the pro-reg heroes were {{Well Intentioned Extremist}}s. When ComicBook/{{Luke Cage|HeroForHire}} said he just was going to not use his powers and stay out of it, armed gunmen showed up at his door on midnight of the day the act went into effect. In ''[[ComicBook/AvengersTheInitiative Avengers: The Initiative]]'', kids recruited were told that they either join the initiative, get their powers taken, or go to jail. Cloud 9, a woman whose power was a little cloud she could fly on, only used her power for joyriding, never crime fighting; Stark sent '''War Machine''' to arrest her for flying without a license. Her only alternative to an extended prison sentence was to be drafted, complete a course of sniper training and go on killing missions. In addition, Stark orchestrated an attack on ComicBook/BlackPanther, foreign chief of state, because his wife(X-Man Storm, who had diplomatic immunity) refused to sign up. It was quite clearly a case of "work for us or else".

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** In anti-reg books, SHIELD [[MutantDraftBoard forcibly conscripted anyone who happened to have any kind of superpowers]] whether they wanted to fight crime or not, and the pro-reg heroes were {{Well Intentioned Extremist}}s. When ComicBook/{{Luke Cage|HeroForHire}} said he just was going to not use his powers and stay out of it, armed gunmen showed up at his door on midnight of the day the act went into effect. In ''[[ComicBook/AvengersTheInitiative Avengers: The Initiative]]'', kids recruited were told that they either join the initiative, get their powers taken, or go to jail. Cloud 9, a woman whose power was a little cloud she could fly on, only used her power for joyriding, never crime fighting; Stark sent '''War Machine''' to arrest her for flying without a license. Her only alternative to an extended prison sentence was to be drafted, complete a course of sniper training and go on killing missions. In addition, Stark orchestrated an attack on ComicBook/BlackPanther, foreign chief of state, because his wife(X-Man wife (X-Man Storm, who had diplomatic immunity) refused to sign up. It was quite clearly a case of "work for us or else".



** Batman does finally explain another reason why he is afraid of doing so years later; [[spoiler: it is because he sees Gotham or the darkness of it, as his true enemy. He fears that should he kill the Joker, something '''worse''' would appear. Given how the DC universe works, he may not be wrong. Then we find out there has been '''three''' separate Jokers and things become more complicated.]]
** Another answer is eventually given during during the ''Hush'' arc: Batman is tolerated by the police as long as he doesn't takes the decision to kill criminals into his own hands. If he ever decides to stop enforcing ThouShaltNotKill, ''even for the Joker'', then [[TheCommissionerGordon Jim Gordon]] will consider him to have gone as mad-dog as the rest of them and arrest him (by any means necessary). Batman, acknowledging that he needs [[PoliceAreUseless at least]] Gordon on his side if he's to maintain effectiveness in his war, obliges him.

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** Batman does finally explain another reason why he is afraid of doing so years later; [[spoiler: it is because he sees Gotham or the darkness of it, as his true enemy. He fears that should he kill the Joker, something '''worse''' would appear. Given how the DC universe works, he may not be wrong. Then we find out there has been '''three''' separate Jokers and things become more complicated.]]
complicated]].
** Another answer is eventually given during during the ''Hush'' arc: Batman is tolerated by the police as long as he doesn't takes the decision to kill criminals into his own hands. If he ever decides to stop enforcing ThouShaltNotKill, ''even for the Joker'', then [[TheCommissionerGordon Jim Gordon]] will consider him to have gone as mad-dog as the rest of them and arrest him (by any means necessary). Batman, acknowledging that he needs [[PoliceAreUseless at least]] Gordon on his side if he's to maintain effectiveness in his war, obliges him.



* In general, whenever someone considers or makes an attempt to kill ComicBook/TheJoker, this is always considered a case of JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope even though the Joker is the poster clown for JokerImmunity. For example, in ''ComicBook/{{Knightfall}}'', Jean-Paul Valley, the temporary replacement Franchise/{{Batman}}, stops one of the Joker's murder schemes and decides that he's going to be better at the job than Bruce and kill the Joker right away. The Gotham City Police Department pull their guns on Valley and tell him to stand down. Jean-Paul Valley was Creator/DCComics TakeThat against the NinetiesAntiHero, so his actions were supposed come off as too extreme, but Gordon and his subordinates place a ridiculous amount of faith in a justice system that has been demonstrably corrupt and/or inept. Almost to illustrate that point, five minutes after the Joker is arrested, he kills his guards and escape in an ambulance.

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* In general, whenever someone considers or makes an attempt to kill ComicBook/TheJoker, this is always considered a case of JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope even though the Joker is the poster clown for JokerImmunity. For example, in ''ComicBook/{{Knightfall}}'', Jean-Paul Valley, the temporary replacement Franchise/{{Batman}}, stops one of the Joker's murder schemes and decides that he's going to be better at the job than Bruce and kill the Joker right away. The Gotham City Police Department pull their guns on Valley and tell him to stand down. Jean-Paul Valley was Creator/DCComics TakeThat against the NinetiesAntiHero, so his actions were supposed to come off as too extreme, but Gordon and his subordinates place a ridiculous amount of faith in a justice system that has been demonstrably corrupt and/or inept. Almost to illustrate that point, five minutes after the Joker is arrested, he kills his guards and escape escapes in an ambulance.



* ''WesternAnimation/AGoofyMovie''

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* ''WesternAnimation/AGoofyMovie''''WesternAnimation/AGoofyMovie'':



* In ''Disney/ReturnToNeverLand'', Jane's no-nonsense dismissal of all things childish is treated as wrong by the other characters and the narration, and her CharacterDevelopment revolves around her needing to be reminded that she is still a child. However, she lives during [[UsefulNotes/WorldWarII World War II]] in a town regularly bombarded by enemy airplanes. Therefore, her growing up faster to be more responsible ([[TheCynic albeit while also being a killjoy]]) may seem like a reasonable thing to some. And some would agree that she can be justified to have other priorities than children stories in a time of war and privations.
* In ''WesternAnimation/TheSecretOfKells'', Abbot Cellach's obsession with building his wall over preserving the books and his decision to forbid his nephew Brendan to go to the forest are portrayed as well-intentioned but ultimately misguided. [[JerkWithAHeartOfGold And there's no doubt that he's not the best at expressing his affection towards Brendan.]] However, on the other hand, when Brendan does go into the forest, he's attacked by wolves and would have died if the local representant of the FairFolk didn't come to help him. So the abbot was perfectly justified. Moreover, Cellach's decision to protect the present (with his wall) instead of the future (the books and their knowledge) can seem justified in a time of invasions. And it's worth mentioning that, had he not lived in a world where Northmen are apparently unstoppable surhuman monsters, an invading army would have thought twice before attacking a heavily fortified location.

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* In ''Disney/ReturnToNeverLand'', Jane's no-nonsense dismissal of all things childish is treated as wrong by the other characters and the narration, and her CharacterDevelopment revolves around her needing to be reminded that she is still a child. However, she lives during [[UsefulNotes/WorldWarII World War II]] UsefulNotes/WorldWarII in a town regularly bombarded by enemy airplanes. Therefore, her growing up faster to be more responsible ([[TheCynic albeit while also being a killjoy]]) may seem like a reasonable thing to some. And some would agree that she can be justified to have other priorities than children stories in a time of war and privations.
* In ''WesternAnimation/TheSecretOfKells'', Abbot Cellach's obsession with building his wall over preserving the books and his decision to forbid his nephew Brendan to go to the forest are portrayed as well-intentioned but ultimately misguided. [[JerkWithAHeartOfGold And there's no doubt that he's not the best at expressing his affection towards Brendan.]] However, on the other hand, when Brendan does go into the forest, he's attacked by wolves and would have died if the local representant representative of the FairFolk TheFairFolk didn't come to help him. So the abbot was perfectly justified. Moreover, Cellach's decision to protect the present (with his wall) instead of the future (the books and their knowledge) can seem justified in a time of invasions. And it's worth mentioning that, had he not lived in a world where Northmen are apparently unstoppable surhuman monsters, an invading army would have thought twice before attacking a heavily fortified location.



** The scientists gave the world governments a set time table for when the world was supposed to end, and the world governments began their doomsday preparations based upon the timeline given to them. But when the end of the world started ''earlier'' than what was projected, Anheuser essentially has to make decisions on the fly which are morally ambiguous but are also realistic. He's supposed to be seen as evil for not wanting to save certain people, but considering the scientists keep feeding data that is consistently wrong it's hard to blame him for having to make such drastic decisions.

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** The scientists gave the world governments a set time table timetable for when the world was supposed to end, and the world governments began their doomsday preparations based upon the timeline given to them. But when the end of the world started ''earlier'' than what was projected, Anheuser essentially has to make decisions on the fly which are morally ambiguous but are also realistic. He's supposed to be seen as evil for not wanting to save certain people, but considering the scientists keep feeding data that is consistently wrong it's hard to blame him for having to make such drastic decisions.



* In ''Film/TheDayTheEarthStoodStill1951'' the humans are lambasted for "striking first". But after the alien spacecraft landed with little warning in a capital city, Klaatu walks directly at the humans wearing a face-obscuring (and unnecessary) helmet with an object that snaps open unexpectedly within melee range. Did Klaatu really expect the humans wouldn't so much as ''flinch'' when that happened? While the soldiers are still in error for shooting, their error is entirely understandable, because making sudden moves during a very tense situation where people are already pointing weapons is not going to end well.

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* In ''Film/TheDayTheEarthStoodStill1951'' the ''Film/TheDayTheEarthStoodStill1951'':
** The
humans are lambasted for "striking first". But after the alien spacecraft landed with little warning in a capital city, Klaatu walks directly at the humans wearing a face-obscuring (and unnecessary) helmet with an object that snaps open unexpectedly within melee range. Did Klaatu really expect the humans wouldn't so much as ''flinch'' when that happened? While the soldiers are still in error for shooting, their error is entirely understandable, because making sudden moves during a very tense situation where people are already pointing weapons is not going to end well.



* ''Film/HomeAlone 2''

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* ''Film/HomeAlone 2''2'':



* [[Literature/CryptoNomicon Cryptonomicon]] features a crew of vaguely defined academics whose work pretty much boils down to, "So there's a lot of white dudes in science and technology, what's up with that?" The protagonist, a white, male engineer, takes this very personally. But - STEM fields ARE dominated by white men, and women and people of colour in the real world often discuss their struggles with sexism and racism in those fields. The academics' smug attitudes don't mean their underlying point - that systemic injustice exists - is wrong.

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* [[Literature/CryptoNomicon Cryptonomicon]] ''Literature/{{Cryptonomicon}}'' features a crew of vaguely defined academics whose work pretty much boils down to, "So there's a lot of white dudes in science and technology, what's up with that?" The protagonist, a white, male engineer, takes this very personally. But - STEM fields ARE dominated by white men, and women and people of colour in the real world often discuss their struggles with sexism and racism in those fields. The academics' smug attitudes don't mean their underlying point - that systemic injustice exists - is wrong.



** ''Order of the Phoenix'' plays Harry's feeling that AdultsAreUseless very straight, with Dumbledore admitting at the end that he shouldn't have kept secrets from him all the time and that it made things a whole lot worse. The thing is, even leaving aside Voldemort's scar-hotline, Harry is [[HotBlooded highly hot-tempered]], doesn't show any control over his emotions, repeatedly ignores warnings from people he respects (such as [=McGonagall=] who politely tries to warn him about Umbridge), has a huge {{Martyr|WithoutACause}}-Complex that repeatedly causes him to unnecessarily endanger himself, then openly gets goaded in front of all of Hogwarts to punch an opponent on the Quidditch pitch. In real life, anyone with Harry's form of temperament would not be considered as a trusted member of any team or organization, leave alone an underground anti-government group.

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** ''Order of the Phoenix'' plays Harry's feeling that AdultsAreUseless very straight, with Dumbledore admitting at the end that he shouldn't have kept secrets from him all the time and that it made things a whole lot worse. The thing is, even leaving aside Voldemort's scar-hotline, Harry is [[HotBlooded highly hot-tempered]], doesn't show any control over his emotions, repeatedly ignores warnings from people he respects (such as [=McGonagall=] who politely tries to warn him about Umbridge), has a huge {{Martyr|WithoutACause}}-Complex that repeatedly causes him to unnecessarily endanger himself, then openly gets goaded in front of all of Hogwarts to punch an opponent on the Quidditch pitch. In real life, anyone with Harry's form of temperament would not be considered as a trusted member of any team or organization, leave let alone an underground anti-government group.



* ''Series/{{House}}'': During Foreman's short stint as a chief of diagnostics in another hospital, he decides to go against protocol: while his team decides on a particular procedure, Foreman follows his intuition and changes the treatment on his own, without informing anyone. This turns out to be a good decision and the patient is saved, yet his boss still fires him for breach of procedures. We're supposed to side with Foreman and consider his boss as a vindictive shrew; yet, what if Foreman had been ''wrong''? Such complete breach of procedure resulting in a patient's death would end up in a massive lawsuit, not to mention heavy damage to the hospital's reputation, and likely being a complete career killer for Foreman. This is actually a frequent problem in the series: the cavaliere methods of House and his pals are more or less justified because they work (well, most of the time), but in reality, any failure would end terribly for all involved. This is the main reason why such behavior is heavily discouraged in real life.

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* ''Series/{{House}}'': During Foreman's short stint as a chief of diagnostics in another hospital, he decides to go against protocol: while his team decides on a particular procedure, Foreman follows his intuition and changes the treatment on his own, without informing anyone. This turns out to be a good decision and the patient is saved, yet his boss still fires him for breach of procedures. We're supposed to side with Foreman and consider his boss as a vindictive shrew; yet, what if Foreman had been ''wrong''? Such complete breach of procedure resulting in a patient's death would end up in a massive lawsuit, not to mention heavy damage to the hospital's reputation, and likely being a complete career killer for Foreman. This is actually a frequent problem in the series: the cavaliere cavalier methods of House and his pals are more or less justified because they work (well, most of the time), but in reality, any failure would end terribly for all involved. This is the main reason why such behavior is heavily discouraged in real life.



** Kinsey gets another one after he becomes vice president. In [[Recap/StargateSG1S7E22LostCityPart2 Lost City]], he's portrayed as a DirtyCoward for electing to flee to the Alpha Site once Anubis starts curb-stomping the regular human military. However, he's right to do so since the Alpha Site was built partially to ensure continuity of government in the event of an alien attack on Earth.

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** Kinsey gets another one after he becomes vice president. In [[Recap/StargateSG1S7E22LostCityPart2 "[[Recap/StargateSG1S7E22LostCityPart2 Lost City]], City]]", he's portrayed as a DirtyCoward for electing to flee to the Alpha Site once Anubis starts curb-stomping the regular human military. However, he's right to do so since the Alpha Site was built partially to ensure continuity of government in the event of an alien attack on Earth.



** A great many episodes have situations in which they have an opportunity to do something that would be very advantageous for the crew, only to have Captain Janeway refuse for [[FailureIsTheOnlyOption reasons]] typically related to the PrimeDirective. Some character inevitably complains about her decision and points out that her moral arguments for why they can't take advantage of the opportunity don't actually make any sense, but they're always portrayed as being wrong, while Janeway is right.

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** A great many episodes have situations in which they have an opportunity to do something that would be very advantageous for the crew, only to have Captain Janeway refuse for [[FailureIsTheOnlyOption reasons]] typically related to the PrimeDirective.[[AlienNonInterferenceClause Prime Directive]]. Some character inevitably complains about her decision and points out that her moral arguments for why they can't take advantage of the opportunity don't actually make any sense, but they're always portrayed as being wrong, while Janeway is right.



** When Steve first took a run as acting principle is also a good example of this. Steve was shown as entirely unready for the position needing Regina to swoop in and save the day. The problem was that before she left, Regina never got anyone to take over Steveís normal duties; no, in addition to his normal jobs such as teaching classes, being the faculty adviser, etc., he had to do Reginaís job as well. In addition, while Regina and Cedric was shown helping him, they were mostly focused on they wedding plans and in most instances actively sabotaging him, such as Regina not telling him that the sister school was visiting. Heck when Regina came back all she really did was tell everyone to do their job.

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** When Steve first took a run as acting principle principal is also a good example of this. Steve was shown as entirely unready for the position needing Regina to swoop in and save the day. The problem was that before she left, Regina never got anyone to take over Steveís normal duties; no, in addition to his normal jobs such as teaching classes, being the faculty adviser, etc., he had to do Reginaís job as well. In addition, while Regina and Cedric was shown helping him, they were mostly focused on they wedding plans and in most instances actively sabotaging him, such as Regina not telling him that the sister school was visiting. Heck when Regina came back all she really did was tell everyone to do their job.



* Superman in the first ''VideoGame/InjusticeGodsAmongUs'' is meant to be seen as wrong for having killed the Joker (which led to his StartOfDarkness and ended up tunring him into a tyrant). In fact, people like Batman or Alfred in the comics give him the cold shoulder after this and Catwoman even treats him as a serial killer who can't wait to strike again. The problem is the same as in the other instances where the Joker is presented: he's the JOKER! And in this universe he managed to kill ''millions'' thanks to a nuke...''while making Superman semi-responsible of all the deaths'', including the deaths of Lois and her unborn child. This pushed him real hard into the DespairEventHorizon, in a way where no person, superpowered or not, could have maintained his sanity intact...and yet he's lambasted for not keeping [[ThouShaltNotKill the moral high ground]] despite the fact that the Joker more than deserved to be executed for his crimes (and most likely would have been anyways thanks to what he did). While it does not excuse all the awful things that Superman did later, it's pretty hard to blame Superman for killing someone who did something so horrid.

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* Superman in the first ''VideoGame/InjusticeGodsAmongUs'' is meant to be seen as wrong for having killed the Joker (which led to his StartOfDarkness and ended up tunring turning him into a tyrant). In fact, people like Batman or Alfred in the comics give him the cold shoulder after this and Catwoman even treats him as a serial killer who can't wait to strike again. The problem is the same as in the other instances where the Joker is presented: he's the JOKER! And in this universe he managed to kill ''millions'' thanks to a nuke...''while making Superman semi-responsible of all the deaths'', including the deaths of Lois and her unborn child. This pushed him real hard into the DespairEventHorizon, in a way where no person, superpowered or not, could have maintained his sanity intact...and yet he's lambasted for not keeping [[ThouShaltNotKill the moral high ground]] despite the fact that the Joker more than deserved to be executed for his crimes (and most likely would have been anyways thanks to what he did). While it does not excuse all the awful things that Superman did later, it's pretty hard to blame Superman for killing someone who did something so horrid.



** [[Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicS7E25ShadowPlayPart1 The Shadow]] [[Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicS7E26ShadowPlayPart2 Play two parter]]: Thousand of years ago, [[PrecursorHero The Pillars of Equestria]] believed that the seventh member of their group, Stygian, [[SixthRangerTraitor betrayed them]] when they caught him performing a magical ritual over their main artifacts. As a result, they automatically assume the worst and cast him out. He soon became possessed by the Pony of Shadows (which happened because they turned against him), forcing all of them to go into Limbo in order to protect Equestria. In the present day, the main characters, along with Starlight and Sunburst decide to free the Pillars from limbo, accidentally freeing the Pony of Shadows in the process. As they find a way to defeat the Pony of shadows, itís discovered that Stygian was never trying to steal the Pillarís power. He was merely copying the artifacts so he could have the power to protect Equestria alongside them. Itís made clear Pillars were wrong to jump to conclusions about Stygian's motives and not let him explain himself. However, the flashbacks heavily implied that he took the Pillars' artifacts ''without their consent'', and [[PoorCommunicationKills he never explained to his friends beforehand that he was feeling left out, nor did he ask if he could borrow them for his spell]]. As a result, it's hard to blame the Pillars for assuming that he was trying to steal their power.

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** [[Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicS7E25ShadowPlayPart1 The Shadow]] [[Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicS7E26ShadowPlayPart2 Play two parter]]: Thousand Thousands of years ago, [[PrecursorHero The Pillars of Equestria]] believed that the seventh member of their group, Stygian, [[SixthRangerTraitor betrayed them]] when they caught him performing a magical ritual over their main artifacts. As a result, they automatically assume the worst and cast him out. He soon became possessed by the Pony of Shadows (which happened because they turned against him), forcing all of them to go into Limbo in order to protect Equestria. In the present day, the main characters, along with Starlight and Sunburst decide to free the Pillars from limbo, accidentally freeing the Pony of Shadows in the process. As they find a way to defeat the Pony of shadows, itís discovered that Stygian was never trying to steal the Pillarís power. He was merely copying the artifacts so he could have the power to protect Equestria alongside them. Itís made clear Pillars were wrong to jump to conclusions about Stygian's motives and not let him explain himself. However, the flashbacks heavily implied that he took the Pillars' artifacts ''without their consent'', and [[PoorCommunicationKills he never explained to his friends beforehand that he was feeling left out, nor did he ask if he could borrow them for his spell]]. As a result, it's hard to blame the Pillars for assuming that he was trying to steal their power.
18th Feb '18 8:59:14 AM gophergiggles
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* In ''WesternAnimation/MyLittlePonyTheMovie2017'', [[TheHeavy Tempest Shadow]] mulls to herself about how so much power is wasted on parties when it has far greater uses. This is meant to be part of her anti-friendship views, except she's absolutely right. If Equestria's monarchs dedicated as much power and time to the security of Equestria as they do to trying to spread friendship through parties and celebrations, the Storm King's invasion could've been prevented or easily dealt with.

to:

* In ''WesternAnimation/MyLittlePonyTheMovie2017'', [[TheHeavy Tempest Shadow]] mulls to herself about how so much power is wasted on parties when it has far greater uses. This is meant to be part of her anti-friendship views, except she's absolutely right. If Equestria's monarchs dedicated as much power and time to the security of Equestria as they do to trying to spread friendship through parties and celebrations, the Storm King's invasion, or for that matter pretty much any villain invasion ever in [[WesternAnimation/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagic the show]], could've been prevented or easily dealt with.
29th Jan '18 7:57:13 PM Loekman3
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** Ford's proclamations about Mabel holding back Dipper's potential has a far stronger credibility that Stan is to him. Basically, throughout that they stayed in Gravity Falls, there are several moments where Dipper could have pursued for his own interests but instead chose to give it up to make his sister happy but the problem is, Mabel absolutely does not return it at all with the sole exception of a single moment [[note]]But even then she only does so due to being goaded by the BigBad and afterwards, [[AesopAmnesia she pretty much returns to her selfish self again]], disregarding her brother just for her own potential gain.[[/note]]. This particularly comes to a head when Dipper decides to stay in Gravity Falls and rather than be happy for him, Mabel chose to whine about it and when she discovers an opportunity to make Dipper stay with her forever, she doesn't hesitate to do so which unfortunately, ends up bringing an apocalypse to the world, something that she never gets called out on and ultimate remains just as selfish as she was at the start of the series with Dipper sacrificing his dreams ''again'' just to make her happy. You'd think that Dipper would disown his sister by now given he has far better reasons to do so than his Grunkle Ford.
29th Jan '18 2:17:12 PM N8han11
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* In ''Disney/TheHunchbackOfNotreDame'', even though he is essentially an abusive foster parent, Frollo's [[HobbesWasRight grim depiction]] of the world "out there" actually sounds quite realistic considering the film is set in [[TheMiddleAges Mediaeval Europe]] which was not known for being kind to those with severe birth defects. Quasimodo does, however, get to witness this first hand, and later [[ShutUpHannibal says]] that [[TheReasonYouSuckSpeech it's because of people like Frollo that the world is that way]].

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* In ''Disney/TheHunchbackOfNotreDame'', even though he is essentially an abusive foster parent, Frollo's [[HobbesWasRight grim depiction]] of the world "out there" actually sounds quite realistic considering the film is set in [[TheMiddleAges Mediaeval Medieval Europe]] which was not known for being kind to those with severe birth defects. Quasimodo does, however, get to witness this first hand, and later [[ShutUpHannibal says]] that [[TheReasonYouSuckSpeech it's because of people like Frollo that the world is that way]].
20th Jan '18 7:15:44 AM MathsAngelicVersion
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* In ''Disney/TheLittleMermaid'', Triton is the intolerant Jerkass telling Ariel how cruel and evil humans are, and Ariel's idealistic views all turn out to be right. But given humans have been exploiting the oceans for millennia, along with using it as a giant garbage dump, and as seen in the prequel, are directly responsible for the death of his wife, as far as he knows humans really are evil.
9th Jan '18 10:43:35 AM JJHIL325
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** [[Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicS7E25ShadowPlayPart1 The Shadow]] [[Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicS7E26ShadowPlayPart2 Play two parter]]: Thousand of years ago, [[PrecursorHero The Pillars of Equestria]] believed that the seventh member of their group, Stygian, [[SixthRangerTraitor betrayed them]] when they caught him performing a magical ritual over their main artifacts. As a result, they automatically assume the worst and cast him out. He soon became possessed by the Pony of Shadows (which happened because they turned against him), forcing all of them to go into Limbo in order to protect Equestria. In the present day, the main characters, along with Starlight and Sunburst decide to free the Pillars from limbo, accidentally freeing the Pony of Shadows in the process. As they find a way to defeat the Pony of shadows, itís discovered that Stygian was never trying to steal the Pillarís power. He was merely copying the artifacts so he could have the power to protect Equestria alongside them. Itís made clear Pillars were wrong to jump to conclusions about Stygian's motives and not let him explain himself. However, the flashbacks heavily implied that he took the Pillars' artifacts ''behind their back with zero consent'' instead of [[PoorCommunicationKills explaining to his friends beforehand that he was feeling left out and asking if he could borrow them for his spell]]. As a result, Stygian isnít entirely blameless for the Pillars coming to the wrong conclusion.

to:

** [[Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicS7E25ShadowPlayPart1 The Shadow]] [[Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicS7E26ShadowPlayPart2 Play two parter]]: Thousand of years ago, [[PrecursorHero The Pillars of Equestria]] believed that the seventh member of their group, Stygian, [[SixthRangerTraitor betrayed them]] when they caught him performing a magical ritual over their main artifacts. As a result, they automatically assume the worst and cast him out. He soon became possessed by the Pony of Shadows (which happened because they turned against him), forcing all of them to go into Limbo in order to protect Equestria. In the present day, the main characters, along with Starlight and Sunburst decide to free the Pillars from limbo, accidentally freeing the Pony of Shadows in the process. As they find a way to defeat the Pony of shadows, itís discovered that Stygian was never trying to steal the Pillarís power. He was merely copying the artifacts so he could have the power to protect Equestria alongside them. Itís made clear Pillars were wrong to jump to conclusions about Stygian's motives and not let him explain himself. However, the flashbacks heavily implied that he took the Pillars' artifacts ''behind ''without their back with zero consent'' instead of consent'', and [[PoorCommunicationKills explaining he never explained to his friends beforehand that he was feeling left out and asking out, nor did he ask if he could borrow them for his spell]]. As a result, Stygian isnít entirely blameless for it's hard to blame the Pillars coming for assuming that he was trying to the wrong conclusion.steal their power.
31st Dec '17 8:26:36 PM MBG159
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* ''ComicBook/{{Superman}} Annual #3'' depicts a BadFuture where Lois is killed and Superman decides to bring about nuclear disarmament. This leads to him becoming more controlling and authoritarian, and being linked to the deaths of a few people (which weren't his fault), and so the government asks Batman to take him down in a fashion pulling ''heavily'' from ''ComicBook/TheDarkKnightReturns''. Batman is meant to be seen as in the right, just as he was then, despite the fact that he's now on the ''opposite'' side.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.StrawmanHasAPoint