History Main / StrawmanHasAPoint

29th Apr '17 4:24:29 PM mouschilight
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** Although it was intended to come across as an example of Sasuke's callousness and self-absorption, at least some of his observations regarding Sakura's feelings in Chapter 693 is actually spot-on. Given that by this point Sasuke has repeatedly betrayed his friends, his village, his entire nation, and at the latest turn of events the entire social order of the continent, has openly announced his intention to murder everything that is good or just and take over the world as its new demon-powered overlord, and never had anything in common with or shown the slightest bit of affection or encouragement to Sakura in their entire lives, it makes ''absolutely no sense'' that [[SingleTargetSexuality she is still in love with him]], and Sasuke is being entirely on-point to stop and lampshade that. For comparison, Naruto is his best friend and that is because [[NotSoDifferent they share childhoods of loneliness]] and time as rivals pushing each other to be stronger along with having some combat synergy to bond in battle. Sakura is completely unable to argue when he points out that the only reason she likes him was because they were on the same team for a little while over three years ago ([[LovingAShadow and she only liked him because he was attractive]]). It really interrupts the whole rhythm of a scene intended to show a megalomaniac's utter alienation from normal human emotion when you have to stop and go "... wait, that's actually ''true''."

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** Although it was intended to come across as an example of Sasuke's callousness and self-absorption, at least some of his observations regarding Sakura's feelings in Chapter 693 is actually spot-on. Given that by this point Sasuke has repeatedly betrayed his friends, his village, his entire nation, and at the latest turn of events the entire social order of the continent, has openly announced his intention to murder everything that is good or just and take over the world as its new demon-powered overlord, and never had anything in common with or shown the slightest bit of affection or encouragement to Sakura in their entire lives, it makes ''absolutely no sense'' that [[SingleTargetSexuality she is still in love with him]], and Sasuke is being entirely on-point to stop and lampshade that. For comparison, Naruto is his best friend and that is because [[NotSoDifferent they share childhoods of loneliness]] and time as rivals pushing each other to be stronger along with having some combat synergy to bond in battle. Sakura is completely unable to argue when he points out that the only reason she likes him was because they were on the same team for a little while over three years ago ([[LovingAShadow and she only liked him because he was attractive]]). It really interrupts the whole rhythm of a scene intended to show a megalomaniac's utter alienation from normal human emotion when you have to stop and go "... wait, that's actually ''true''."
26th Apr '17 8:24:34 PM mouschilight
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** Although it was intended to come across as an example of Sasuke's callousness and self-absorption, at least some of his observations regarding Sakura's feelings in chapter 693 is actually spot-on. Given that by this point Sasuke has repeatedly betrayed his friends, his village, his entire nation, and at the latest turn of events the entire social order of the continent, has openly announced his intention to murder everything that is good or just and take over the world as its new demon-powered overlord, and never had anything in common with or shown the slightest bit of affection or encouragement to Sakura in their entire lives, it makes ''absolutely no sense'' that [[SingleTargetSexuality she is still in love with him]], and Sasuke is being entirely on-point to stop and lampshade that. For comparison, Naruto is his best friend and that is because [[NotSoDifferent they share childhoods of loneliness]] and time as rivals pushing each other to be stronger along with having some combat synergy to bond in battle. Sakura is completely unable to argue when he points out that the only reason she likes him was because they were on the same team for a little while over three years ago ([[LovingAShadow and she only liked him because he was attractive]]). It really interrupts the whole rhythm of a scene intended to show a megalomaniac's utter alienation from normal human emotion when you have to stop and go "... wait, that's actually ''true''."

to:

** Although it was intended to come across as an example of Sasuke's callousness and self-absorption, at least some of his observations regarding Sakura's feelings in chapter Chapter 693 is actually spot-on. Given that by this point Sasuke has repeatedly betrayed his friends, his village, his entire nation, and at the latest turn of events the entire social order of the continent, has openly announced his intention to murder everything that is good or just and take over the world as its new demon-powered overlord, and never had anything in common with or shown the slightest bit of affection or encouragement to Sakura in their entire lives, it makes ''absolutely no sense'' that [[SingleTargetSexuality she is still in love with him]], and Sasuke is being entirely on-point to stop and lampshade that. For comparison, Naruto is his best friend and that is because [[NotSoDifferent they share childhoods of loneliness]] and time as rivals pushing each other to be stronger along with having some combat synergy to bond in battle. Sakura is completely unable to argue when he points out that the only reason she likes him was because they were on the same team for a little while over three years ago ([[LovingAShadow and she only liked him because he was attractive]]). It really interrupts the whole rhythm of a scene intended to show a megalomaniac's utter alienation from normal human emotion when you have to stop and go "... wait, that's actually ''true''."
26th Apr '17 8:14:28 PM plcthecd
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%% This list of examples has been alphabetized. Please add your exaample in the proper place. Thanks!

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%% This list of examples has been alphabetized. Please add your exaample example in the proper place. Thanks!


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* ''WesternAnimation/ThePowerpuffGirls'':
** Buttercup's attitude's towards Elmer after he became a monster. She's treated as being in the wrong for refusing to apologize to him after bullying him, but as she points at, Elmer was attacking people that didn't even do anything to him, including his teacher that actually stood up for him.
** Femme Fatale isn't exactly wrong about male super heroes being much more popular.
** The mayor of Citysville rightly calls the girls out on the fact that they have a tendency to cause as much damage as they prevent--in this case, blowing up a bridge (which will cost roughly $3 million to fix) just to catch some bank robbers when they could have [[BoringButPractical simply used their superhuman strength to overpower the crooks.]] [[DownplayedTrope Downplayed]] somewhat in that their heroism prevents the villains from deliberately causing more damage than they already were, and the ending of "Paste Makes Waste" suggests that the girls use their powers to repair the damage they cause after a crisis is dealt with.
26th Apr '17 10:46:16 AM MarkyVigoroth
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* The "Gee Whiz" episode of ''WesternAnimation/AquaTeenHungerForce'' has a segment on "Standards and Practices" that claims that the eponymous Department is "keeping good and funny ideas away from [...] the television viewer", the result being "a mediocre product that no one can relate to". In that segment, an example of these "good", "funny", "relatable" ideas is '''[[{{Gorn}} blowing out a nun's brains,]] leaving the shooter in LudicrousGibs'''. While Standards And Practices in that segment seemed to be okay with someone killing a nun if the LudicrousGibs are replaced by "a happy and colorful rainbow", [[DudeNotFunny killing an innocent nun is not an idea that most people would find "good" or "funny".]] On another point, FridgeHorror sets in when you think about just what type of people would actually relate to killing a nun.
26th Apr '17 6:49:56 AM EvilKid
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** Kazuo just racks these up. Even earlier in the comic, Miharu decided the way to magically solve his abusive homelife was to get Kikuko to pretend she was in love with him and willing to marry him, all to convince Kazuo to enter cooking contests. Miharu felt this would teach him he had a choice. When Kazuo finally realized the entire thing was her manipulating him, we're intended to feel that he's crossed a line and hurt Miharu by confronting both Kikuko and Miharu. Instead, especially given later events in the story, it's hard not to feel sorry for him - his father actually beats the crap out of him whenever he tries to assert himself, and now he's learned that Kikuko's warming up to him was all a lie. Not to mention, ''winning a cooking contest would not fix his homelife.'' Much later in the comic, after he's DrivenToSuicide, Miharu finally admits to Makoto that her plan was stupid, but the story wants us to think she's being too hard on herself.

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** Kazuo just racks these up. Even earlier in the comic, Miharu decided the way to magically solve his abusive homelife was to get Kikuko to pretend she was in love with him and willing to marry him, all to convince Kazuo to enter cooking contests. Miharu felt this would teach him he had a choice. When Kazuo finally realized the entire thing was her manipulating him, we're intended to feel that he's crossed a line and hurt Miharu by confronting both Kikuko and Miharu. Instead, especially given later events in the story, it's hard not to feel sorry for him - his father actually beats the crap out of him whenever he tries to assert himself, and now he's learned that Kikuko's warming up to him was all a lie. Not to mention, ''winning a cooking contest would not fix his homelife.'' Much later in the comic, [[spoiler: after he's DrivenToSuicide, DrivenToSuicide]], Miharu finally admits to Makoto that her plan was stupid, but the story wants us to think she's being too hard on herself.
26th Apr '17 5:46:11 AM rjd1922
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%% The Disrespectful Man entry has been the subject of some debate. Please consult the relevant Discussion thread before altering or removing it. Thank you.
* [[http://everydayfeminism.com/2016/01/attempts-to-end-pc-culture/ Politically Incorrect Man]] sees three pairs of people, each consisting of one "PC" and one "un-PC" character, having a disagreement about a sensitive political topic. Each time, the eponymous "superhero" flies in and carries the "un-PC" character's point to an exaggerated, strawman extreme, then flies away. Finally, another "superhero" named "Mx. Respect for Others" flies in and gives what is intended to be a TheReasonYouSuckSpeech. Her tactics, however, are NotSoDifferent from Disrespectful Man's: she flies in, makes vague and general pronouncements only tangentially related to the point at hand, and then flies away; the only real difference is that, as an AuthorAvatar, she is given more space to expound on her point. It's hard to imagine that any of the three pairs of characters' (who, unlike the superheroes, were at least conversing politely and respectfully with one another) conflicts were actually resolved, and it's hard to imagine anyone's opinion being changed. Hence, to a reader who comes into the comic already inclined to agree with Disrespectful Man's worldview, the strawman has a point, whereas to a reader who comes into the comic already inclined to agree with Mx. Respect For Others, she's merely PreachingToTheChoir.

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%% The Disrespectful Politically Incorrect Man entry has been the subject of some debate. Please consult the relevant Discussion thread before altering or removing it. Thank you.
* [[http://everydayfeminism.com/2016/01/attempts-to-end-pc-culture/ Politically Incorrect Man]] sees three pairs of people, each consisting of one "PC" and one "un-PC" character, having a disagreement about a sensitive political topic. Each time, the eponymous "superhero" flies in and carries the "un-PC" character's point to an exaggerated, strawman extreme, then flies away. Finally, another "superhero" named "Mx. Respect for Others" flies in and gives what is intended to be a TheReasonYouSuckSpeech. Her tactics, however, are NotSoDifferent from Disrespectful Politically Incorrect Man's: she flies in, makes vague and general pronouncements only tangentially related to the point at hand, and then flies away; the only real difference is that, as an AuthorAvatar, she is given more space to expound on her point. It's hard to imagine that any of the three pairs of characters' (who, unlike the superheroes, were at least conversing politely and respectfully with one another) conflicts were actually resolved, and it's hard to imagine anyone's opinion being changed. Hence, to a reader who comes into the comic already inclined to agree with Disrespectful Politically Incorrect Man's worldview, the strawman has a point, whereas to a reader who comes into the comic already inclined to agree with Mx. Respect For Others, she's merely PreachingToTheChoir.
24th Apr '17 10:06:11 PM rjd1922
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* [[http://i.imgur.com/TfziLyL.jpg Disrespectful Man]] sees three pairs of people, each consisting of one "PC" and one "un-PC" character, having a disagreement about a sensitive political topic. Each time, the eponymous "superhero" flies in and carries the "un-PC" character's point to an exaggerated, strawman extreme, then flies away. Finally, another "superhero" named "Mx. Respect for Others" flies in and gives what is intended to be a TheReasonYouSuckSpeech. Her tactics, however, are NotSoDifferent from Disrespectful Man's: she flies in, makes vague and general pronouncements only tangentially related to the point at hand, and then flies away; the only real difference is that, as an AuthorAvatar, she is given more space to expound on her point. It's hard to imagine that any of the three pairs of characters' (who, unlike the superheroes, were at least conversing politely and respectfully with one another) conflicts were actually resolved, and it's hard to imagine anyone's opinion being changed. Hence, to a reader who comes into the comic already inclined to agree with Disrespectful Man's worldview, the strawman has a point, whereas to a reader who comes into the comic already inclined to agree with Mx. Respect For Others, she's merely PreachingToTheChoir.

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* [[http://i.imgur.com/TfziLyL.jpg Disrespectful [[http://everydayfeminism.com/2016/01/attempts-to-end-pc-culture/ Politically Incorrect Man]] sees three pairs of people, each consisting of one "PC" and one "un-PC" character, having a disagreement about a sensitive political topic. Each time, the eponymous "superhero" flies in and carries the "un-PC" character's point to an exaggerated, strawman extreme, then flies away. Finally, another "superhero" named "Mx. Respect for Others" flies in and gives what is intended to be a TheReasonYouSuckSpeech. Her tactics, however, are NotSoDifferent from Disrespectful Man's: she flies in, makes vague and general pronouncements only tangentially related to the point at hand, and then flies away; the only real difference is that, as an AuthorAvatar, she is given more space to expound on her point. It's hard to imagine that any of the three pairs of characters' (who, unlike the superheroes, were at least conversing politely and respectfully with one another) conflicts were actually resolved, and it's hard to imagine anyone's opinion being changed. Hence, to a reader who comes into the comic already inclined to agree with Disrespectful Man's worldview, the strawman has a point, whereas to a reader who comes into the comic already inclined to agree with Mx. Respect For Others, she's merely PreachingToTheChoir.
21st Apr '17 11:55:39 PM DreamerCynist2
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* When Jason Todd, the second ComicBook/{{Robin}} returned in the "Under the Hood" series, his primary goal was to take down the Joker. Towards the end of the mini-series, Batman tries to justify [[JokerImmunity the Joker's continued survival]] by revealing he fears that his killing Joker would make for a line that he can never uncross, leading to Bruce JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope and becoming nothing more than a SerialKillerKiller. Jason, who has been set up as a murdering maniac now little different from the Joker himself, immediately shoots back a rebuttal about the StrawmanFallacy of this particular argument, asking why taking exceptional actions to deal with an exceptional individual, a monster whose list of crimes ''should'' have earned him the death sentence a dozen times over or more, would lead to those actions becoming the new default. As he points out, he's not saying that Batman should start killing crooks at random, or even that he should start lethally pruning his RoguesGallery in general. Just that Batman should do what the legal justice system fails to do, and put the mass-murdering, psychotic, irredeemably evil monster that is ComicBook/TheJoker to an end. It's telling that all Batman can muster in response is an empty apology and an insistence that he can't do that.

to:

* When Jason Todd, the second ComicBook/{{Robin}} returned in the "Under the Hood" series, his primary goal was to take down the Joker. Towards the end of the mini-series, Batman tries to justify [[JokerImmunity the Joker's continued survival]] by revealing he fears that his killing Joker would make for a line that he can never uncross, leading to Bruce Batman JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope and becoming nothing more than a SerialKillerKiller. Jason, who has been set up as a murdering maniac now little different from the Joker himself, immediately shoots back a rebuttal about the StrawmanFallacy of this particular argument, asking why taking exceptional actions to deal with an exceptional individual, a monster whose list of crimes ''should'' have earned him the death sentence a dozen times over or more, would lead to those actions becoming the new default. As he points out, he's not saying that Batman should start killing crooks at random, or even that he should start lethally pruning his RoguesGallery in general. Just that Batman should do what the legal justice system fails to do, and put the mass-murdering, psychotic, irredeemably evil monster that is ComicBook/TheJoker to an end. It's telling that all Batman can muster in response is an empty apology and an insistence that he can't do that.
21st Apr '17 5:22:31 PM DreamerCynist2
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* When Jason Todd, the second ComicBook/{{Robin}} returned in the "Under the Hood" series, his primary goal was to take down the Joker. Towards the end of the mini-series, Batman tries to justify [[JokerImmunity the Joker's continued survival]] by revealing he fears that his killing Joker would make for a line that he can never uncross, leading him to become nothing more than a SerialKillerKiller. Jason, who has been set up as a murdering maniac now little different from the Joker himself, immediately shoots back a rebuttal about the StrawmanFallacy of this particular argument, asking why taking exceptional actions to deal with an exceptional individual, a monster whose list of crimes ''should'' have earned him the death sentence a dozen times over or more, would lead to those actions becoming the new default. As he points out, he's not saying that Batman should start killing crooks at random, or even that he should start lethally pruning his RoguesGallery in general. Just that Batman should do what the legal justice system fails to do, and put the mass-murdering, psychotic, irredeemably evil monster that is ComicBook/TheJoker to an end. It's telling that all Batman can muster in response is an empty apology and an insistence that he can't do that.

to:

* When Jason Todd, the second ComicBook/{{Robin}} returned in the "Under the Hood" series, his primary goal was to take down the Joker. Towards the end of the mini-series, Batman tries to justify [[JokerImmunity the Joker's continued survival]] by revealing he fears that his killing Joker would make for a line that he can never uncross, leading him to become Bruce JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope and becoming nothing more than a SerialKillerKiller. Jason, who has been set up as a murdering maniac now little different from the Joker himself, immediately shoots back a rebuttal about the StrawmanFallacy of this particular argument, asking why taking exceptional actions to deal with an exceptional individual, a monster whose list of crimes ''should'' have earned him the death sentence a dozen times over or more, would lead to those actions becoming the new default. As he points out, he's not saying that Batman should start killing crooks at random, or even that he should start lethally pruning his RoguesGallery in general. Just that Batman should do what the legal justice system fails to do, and put the mass-murdering, psychotic, irredeemably evil monster that is ComicBook/TheJoker to an end. It's telling that all Batman can muster in response is an empty apology and an insistence that he can't do that.



*** Batman's reply is quite different in [[WesternAnimation/BatmanUnderTheRedHood the animated adaptation]], where he fears that, if he ''does'' kill the Joker, he would be JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope in the process.
19th Apr '17 12:39:36 PM ironballs16
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** Batman does finally explain another reason why he is afraid of doing so; [[spoiler: it is because he sees Gotham or the darkness of it, as his enemy. He fears that should he kill the Joker, something '''worse''' would appear. Given how the DC universe works, he may not be wrong. Then we find out there has been '''three''' seperate Jokers and things become more complicated,]]

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** Batman does finally explain another reason why he is afraid of doing so; [[spoiler: it is because he sees Gotham or the darkness of it, as his enemy. He fears that should he kill the Joker, something '''worse''' would appear. Given how the DC universe works, he may not be wrong. Then we find out there has been '''three''' seperate Jokers and things become more complicated,]]complicated.]]
*** Batman's reply is quite different in [[WesternAnimation/BatmanUnderTheRedHood the animated adaptation]], where he fears that, if he ''does'' kill the Joker, he would be JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope in the process.
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