History Main / StrawmanHasAPoint

28th Apr '16 2:41:33 PM StClair
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* An example that occurred to the writers happened in the ''WesternAnimation/JusticeLeague'' episode "A Better World". In it, Batman gets into a debate/duel with his [[KnightTemplar Justice Lord]] counterpart, about the latter's [[WellIntentionedExtremist seizing control of the world.]] Originally, League!Batman was meant to convince his counterpart, but after writing a particularly apt line for Lord!Batman [[note]] "You grabbed power!" "And with that power we've made a world where no eight year old boy will ever lose his parents because of some punk with a gun!" [[/note]] the writers couldn't come up with a compelling counter argument. In the episode proper, League!Batman concedes the point, and later gets through to Lord!Batman by pointing out how much their parents would have (dis)liked [[CrapsaccharineWorld the new Gotham.]]

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* An example that occurred to the writers happened in the ''WesternAnimation/JusticeLeague'' episode "A Better World". In it, Batman gets into a debate/duel with his [[KnightTemplar Justice Lord]] counterpart, about the latter's [[WellIntentionedExtremist seizing control of the world.]] Originally, League!Batman was meant to convince his counterpart, but after writing a particularly apt line for Lord!Batman [[note]] "You grabbed power!" "And with that power power, we've made a world where no eight year eight-year old boy will ever lose his parents because of some punk with a gun!" [[/note]] the writers couldn't come up with a compelling counter argument. In the episode proper, League!Batman concedes the point, and later gets through to Lord!Batman by pointing out how much their parents would have (dis)liked [[CrapsaccharineWorld the new Gotham.]]
28th Apr '16 2:37:08 PM StClair
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** It's seen that the point where this BadFuture started to come into shape was when Magog murdered SelfDemonstrating/TheJoker in cold blood and was not only acquitted for the murder, but celebrated as a hero for it. Superman retired mostly from disgust that the populace would accept this murder in lieu of justice and embrace Magog as their new champion, showing the world accepting a terrible new type of hero. This all falls apart when we're reminded that it's ''The Joker,'' the comic-book poster child for an irredeemable, mass-murdering monster who can never be stopped or reasoned with. Honestly, it's surprising nobody tried murdering him sooner. Of course, [[BothSidesHaveAPoint Superman's view, that murdering a criminal already in custody, isnt exactly unreasonable,]] and blame should fall on the court systems that refuse to give the Joker any other punishment than internment in Arkham.

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** It's seen that the point where this BadFuture started to come into shape was when Magog murdered SelfDemonstrating/TheJoker in cold blood and was not only acquitted for the murder, but celebrated as a hero for it. Superman retired mostly from disgust that the populace would accept this murder in lieu of justice and embrace Magog as their new champion, showing the world accepting a terrible new type of hero. This all falls apart when we're reminded that it's ''The Joker,'' the comic-book poster child for an irredeemable, mass-murdering monster who can never be stopped or reasoned with. Honestly, it's surprising nobody tried murdering him sooner. Of course, [[BothSidesHaveAPoint Superman's view, that murdering a criminal already in custody, isnt custody is wrong, isn't exactly unreasonable,]] unreasonable either,]] and blame should fall on the court systems that refuse to give the Joker any other punishment than internment in Arkham.
26th Apr '16 12:19:05 PM NNinja
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* ''[[FanFic/JusticeLeagueOfEquestria Mare of Steel]]'': Rainbow Dash/Supermare is taken captive by a GeneralRipper who believes that she is dangerous to Equestria. Surprisingly, she agrees that if she ever did go rogue then she would be a dangerous threat worth being removed.
25th Apr '16 8:16:54 PM Ferot_Dreadnaught
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* In Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, Dracula replies to Richter Belmont's accusation that he steals men's souls and makes them his slaves with "perhaps the same could be said of all religions". Pretty much true.
25th Apr '16 8:11:10 PM SirPellucidar
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* In Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, Dracula replies to Richter Belmont's accusation that he steals men's souls and makes them his slaves with "perhaps the same could be said of all religions". Pretty much true.
25th Apr '16 10:51:00 AM NNinja
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* In ''Manga/DeathNote'', whenever people call out Kira's methods of killing criminals being terrible, as Light rightfully points out at the end, Kira's methods ''work''! Globally, crimes have gone down by 70% and ''wars have completely stopped''. Kira kills people, but it [[UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans ultimately]] led to a safer world. However, Kira is still a VillainProtagonist because he's not just killing criminals, he's also killing anyone who tries to stand in the way of his goal, including the police.



** Another example would be Danzo's first act as Hokage. That is, declaring Sasuke a missing-nin who is to be captured or killed on sight. Naruto and Sakura insist Sasuke doesn't deserve it but not only did he defect three years prior to a village ''that was established to destroy Konoha'', he also (as far as anyone knows) kidnapped and killed the Raikage's brother. If Konoha doesn't declare that Sasuke is a missing-nin, such an act would be tantamount to a declaration of war on Kumo by Konoha. Even if Sasuke was merely "misguided", no leader would declare a single soldier that was clearly in the wrong to be worth starting a war over.
25th Apr '16 10:00:34 AM NNinja
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* ''Film/XMen'':
** In ''Film/XMen1'', Senator Kelly casts all manner of aspersions on mutants, and we're supposed to side against him because he's the antagonist. But when you get down to the ''actual arguments'' he uses, his concerns start to sound rather reasonable. For instance he cites a report of a mutant girl who can walk through walls, and asks "what's to stop her from walking into a bank vault, or into the White House?" Not only does the film never offer up a counter-argument against this, but in [[Film/X2XMenUnited the second film]] a mutant actually ''does'' use his powers to sneak into the White House and nearly assassinates the President. He also expresses worry about reports of mutants that can enter people's minds and control their thoughts, which is a very valid fear. Not only can Professor Xavier do this, but he also built a machine that allows him to spy on, control or kill anyone on Earth he wants.
** ''Film/XMenDaysOfFuturePast'' presents the inverse of the situation seen in ''[=X1=]''. This time, it's the government who takes the side of the mutants at Trask's Senate hearing and refuse to give the funding he needs to create the Sentinel program. The problem is that Trask has very well-founded fears that the audience can sympathize with. He correctly points out that the U.S. and Russia nearly went to war in the course of a single battle as a result of mutant intervention (which they officially deny, but are later seen to have removed several pieces of clothing and technology from and stored). After the Paris Peace Accord incident, he then points out that the participants include a man who can direct metal (and is the prime suspect/convicted prisoner in the death of a sitting U.S. President), another who believes that mutants will drive humanity into extinction, and a third who can shapeshift into anyone and order a nuclear strike if she felt like it. It doesn't justify his genocidal tendencies towards mutants, but there are some very real fears.
23rd Apr '16 1:15:12 PM AtticusOmundson
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* Christian in Creator/KirkCameron's ''Film/SavingChristmas'' raises several valid and true points about the commercialization of Christmas, such as how modern Christianity has absorbed several religious symbols (such as Christmas trees) from Pagan beliefs, or that the mass overspending on personal goods could be used to help feed the needy. Cameron's character easily brushes off every complaint with InsaneTrollLogic (i.e. It's okay to be greedy and gluttonous for material things because Jesus sacrificed his material body, or that people should see a stack of Christmas presents as the skyline of the New Jerusalem) that the film presents as actually being a LogicBomb, as made clear as whenever Cameron is finished explaining something, Christian sits back in awe at the incredible wisdom he's just experienced.

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* Christian in Creator/KirkCameron's Kirk Cameron's ''Film/SavingChristmas'' raises several valid and true points about the commercialization of Christmas, such as how modern Christianity has absorbed several religious symbols (such as Christmas trees) from Pagan beliefs, or that the mass overspending on personal goods could be used to help feed the needy. Cameron's character easily brushes off every complaint with InsaneTrollLogic (i.e. It's okay to be greedy and gluttonous for material things because Jesus sacrificed his material body, or that people should see a stack of Christmas presents as the skyline of the New Jerusalem) that the film presents as actually being a LogicBomb, as made clear as whenever Cameron is finished explaining something, Christian sits back in awe at the incredible wisdom he's just experienced.
23rd Apr '16 1:14:07 PM AtticusOmundson
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Added DiffLines:

* Christian in Creator/KirkCameron's ''Film/SavingChristmas'' raises several valid and true points about the commercialization of Christmas, such as how modern Christianity has absorbed several religious symbols (such as Christmas trees) from Pagan beliefs, or that the mass overspending on personal goods could be used to help feed the needy. Cameron's character easily brushes off every complaint with InsaneTrollLogic (i.e. It's okay to be greedy and gluttonous for material things because Jesus sacrificed his material body, or that people should see a stack of Christmas presents as the skyline of the New Jerusalem) that the film presents as actually being a LogicBomb, as made clear as whenever Cameron is finished explaining something, Christian sits back in awe at the incredible wisdom he's just experienced.
22nd Apr '16 3:10:11 AM erforce
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* In ''VideoGame/BatmanArkhamCity'', it's treated as a given that the player, as Batman, will stop the League of Shadow's plan to wipe out all the criminals locked up in the titular prison ala [[spoiler: Protocol 10]]. However, the EnemyChatter portrays the criminals as {{Card Carrying Villain}}s who are only kept in line by their fear of their even worse bosses. The game shows what horrible crimes (including poisoning thousands of civilians with the Joker's blood, just to motivate Batman to find a cure) the criminals can commit from inside the prison. The [[BatmanArkhamAsylum previous game]] showed that [[ThereAreNoTherapists such therapy as exists serves only to get the therapists killed, maimed, traumatized or brainwashed by their criminal patients.]] And neither prison nor asylum [[CardboardPrison can hold Gotham's supervillains for more than 6 months]], letting them rack up another big bodycount before Batman stops them again. Given the lack of viable alternatives to protect the people of Gotham from Batman's rogue gallery, the League of Shadows' plan begins to sound reasonable.

to:

* In ''VideoGame/BatmanArkhamCity'', it's treated as a given that the player, as Batman, will stop the League of Shadow's plan to wipe out all the criminals locked up in the titular prison ala [[spoiler: Protocol 10]]. However, the EnemyChatter portrays the criminals as {{Card Carrying Villain}}s who are only kept in line by their fear of their even worse bosses. The game shows what horrible crimes (including poisoning thousands of civilians with the Joker's blood, just to motivate Batman to find a cure) the criminals can commit from inside the prison. The [[BatmanArkhamAsylum [[VideoGame/BatmanArkhamAsylum previous game]] showed that [[ThereAreNoTherapists such therapy as exists serves only to get the therapists killed, maimed, traumatized or brainwashed by their criminal patients.]] And neither prison nor asylum [[CardboardPrison can hold Gotham's supervillains for more than 6 months]], letting them rack up another big bodycount before Batman stops them again. Given the lack of viable alternatives to protect the people of Gotham from Batman's rogue gallery, the League of Shadows' plan begins to sound reasonable.
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