History Main / StrawManHasaPoint

17th Oct '17 3:08:42 PM MagBas
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** Then came the end of the War of Jokes and Riddles war and Batman confessing a dark secret to Catwoman: [[spoiler: Batman nearly killed the ''Riddler.'' He was not blinded by rage nor under any pretense. He ''decided to go and get ready to '''kill''' Riddler. Granted, he did do some seriously messed-up stuff, but the fact that '''''JOKER''''' of all people stopped Batman from killing Riddler, pretty much sums it up.]] This paints Batman's reasonign in a new light.
17th Oct '17 3:07:38 PM MagBas
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** However, Superman then shows what happens if superheroes did do that... [[BewareTheSuperman and it's goddamn terrifying.]]
17th Oct '17 11:19:27 AM DVB
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* When Jason Todd, the second ComicBook/{{Robin}} returned in the "Under the Hood" series, his primary goal was to take down the Joker. Towards the end of the mini-series, Batman tries to justify [[JokerImmunity the Joker's continued survival]] by revealing he fears that his killing Joker would make for a line that he can never uncross, leading to Batman JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope and becoming nothing more than a SerialKillerKiller. Jason, who has been set up as a murdering maniac now little different from the Joker himself, immediately shoots back a rebuttal about the StrawmanFallacy of this particular argument, asking why taking exceptional actions to deal with an exceptional individual, a monster whose list of crimes ''should'' have earned him the death sentence a dozen times over or more, would lead to those actions becoming the new default. As he points out, he's not saying that Batman should start killing crooks at random, or even that he should start lethally pruning his RoguesGallery in general. Just that Batman should do what the legal justice system fails to do, and put the mass-murdering, psychotic, irredeemably evil monster that is ComicBook/TheJoker to an end. It's telling that all Batman can muster in response is an empty apology and an insistence that he can't do that. Batman does finally explain another reason why he is afraid of doing so; [[spoiler: it is because he sees Gotham or the darkness of it, as his enemy. He fears that should he kill the Joker, something '''worse''' would appear. Given how the DC universe works, he may not be wrong. Then we find out there has been '''three''' separate Jokers and things become more complicated.]]

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* When Jason Todd, the second ComicBook/{{Robin}} returned in the "Under the Hood" series, his primary goal was to take down the Joker. Towards the end of the mini-series, Batman tries to justify [[JokerImmunity the Joker's continued survival]] by revealing he fears that his killing Joker would make for a line that he can never uncross, leading to Batman JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope and becoming nothing more than a SerialKillerKiller. Jason, who has been set up as a murdering maniac now little different from the Joker himself, immediately shoots back a rebuttal about the StrawmanFallacy of this particular argument, asking why taking exceptional actions to deal with an exceptional individual, a monster whose list of crimes ''should'' have earned him the death sentence a dozen times over or more, would lead to those actions becoming the new default. As he points out, he's not saying that Batman should start killing crooks at random, or even that he should start lethally pruning his RoguesGallery in general. Just that Batman should do what the legal justice system fails to do, and put the mass-murdering, psychotic, irredeemably evil monster that is ComicBook/TheJoker to an end. It's telling that all Batman can muster in response is an empty apology and an insistence that he can't do that.
**
Batman does finally explain another reason why he is afraid of doing so; so years later; [[spoiler: it is because he sees Gotham or the darkness of it, as his true enemy. He fears that should he kill the Joker, something '''worse''' would appear. Given how the DC universe works, he may not be wrong. Then we find out there has been '''three''' separate Jokers and things become more complicated.]]]]
** Then came the end of the War of Jokes and Riddles war and Batman confessing a dark secret to Catwoman: [[spoiler: Batman nearly killed the ''Riddler.'' He was not blinded by rage nor under any pretense. He ''decided to go and get ready to '''kill''' Riddler. Granted, he did do some seriously messed-up stuff, but the fact that '''''JOKER''''' of all people stopped Batman from killing Riddler, pretty much sums it up.]] This paints Batman's reasonign in a new light.


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** However, Superman then shows what happens if superheroes did do that... [[BewareTheSuperman and it's goddamn terrifying.]]
15th Oct '17 5:26:03 PM TudorRose
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** In "Redecorating the Mertzes' Apartment", Lucy kindly offers to help Fred and Ethel fix up their apartment, with Ricky even agreeing to pay for all the materials. As Lucy and Ethel begin to reupholster an old chair by taking the feather stuffing out of it, Fred [[DidntThinkThisThrough plugs in a fan]] to get rid of the paint smell. Naturally this ends in disaster with feathers flying all over the place. Fred yells at Lucy about the mess "she" made and [[NeverMyFault blames her]] for ruining their apartment. "''I'' have?" she understandably fires back, but Ethel agrees with Fred and insists Lucy is to blame because it was all her idea to start with. In the end, the Ricardos must give the Mertzes their old furniture and pay to refurnish their own apartment, and the audience is expected to accept that everything turned out fine.

to:

** In "Redecorating the Mertzes' Apartment", Lucy kindly offers to help Fred and Ethel fix up their apartment, with Ricky even agreeing to pay for all the materials. As Lucy and Ethel begin to reupholster an old chair by taking the feather stuffing out of it, Fred [[DidntThinkThisThrough plugs in a fan]] to get rid of the paint smell. Naturally this ends in disaster with feathers flying all over the place. Fred yells at Lucy about the mess "she" made and [[NeverMyFault blames her]] for ruining their apartment. "''I'' have?" she understandably fires back, but Ethel agrees with Fred and insists Lucy is to blame because it was all her idea to start with. In the end, the Ricardos must are forced to give the Mertzes their old furniture and so must pay to refurnish their own apartment, and the apartment. The audience is expected to accept that everything turned out fine.
15th Oct '17 5:24:42 PM TudorRose
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** In "Redecorating the Mertzes' Apartment", Lucy kindly offers to help Fred and Ethel fix up their apartment, with Ricky even agreeing to pay for all the materials. As Lucy and Ethel begin to reupholster an old chair by taking the feather stuffing out of it, Fred [[DidntThinkThisThrough plugs in a fan]] to get rid of the paint smell. Naturally this ends in disaster with feathers flying all over the place. Fred yells at Lucy about the mess "she" made and [[NeverMyFault blames her]] for ruining their apartment. "''I'' have?" she understandably fires back, but Ethel backs Fred up and insists Lucy is to blame because it was all her idea to start with. In the end, the Ricardos must give the Mertzes their old furniture and pay to refurnish their own apartment, and the audience is expected to accept that everything turned out fine.

to:

** In "Redecorating the Mertzes' Apartment", Lucy kindly offers to help Fred and Ethel fix up their apartment, with Ricky even agreeing to pay for all the materials. As Lucy and Ethel begin to reupholster an old chair by taking the feather stuffing out of it, Fred [[DidntThinkThisThrough plugs in a fan]] to get rid of the paint smell. Naturally this ends in disaster with feathers flying all over the place. Fred yells at Lucy about the mess "she" made and [[NeverMyFault blames her]] for ruining their apartment. "''I'' have?" she understandably fires back, but Ethel backs agrees with Fred up and insists Lucy is to blame because it was all her idea to start with. In the end, the Ricardos must give the Mertzes their old furniture and pay to refurnish their own apartment, and the audience is expected to accept that everything turned out fine.
15th Oct '17 5:22:52 PM TudorRose
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** In "Redecorating the Mertzes' Apartment", Lucy kindly offers to help Fred and Ethel fix up their apartment, with Ricky even agreeing to pay for all the materials. As Lucy and Ethel begin to reupholster an old chair by taking the feather stuffing out of it, Fred [[DidntThinkThisThrough plugs in a fan]] to get rid of the paint smell. Naturally this ends in disaster with feathers flying all over the place. Fred yells at Lucy about the mess "she" made and blames her for ruining their apartment. "''I'' have?" she understandably fires back, but Ethel backs Fred up and insists Lucy is to blame because it was all her idea to start with. In the end, the Ricardos must give the Mertzes their old furniture and pay to refurnish their own apartment, and the audience is expected to accept that everything turned out fine.

to:

** In "Redecorating the Mertzes' Apartment", Lucy kindly offers to help Fred and Ethel fix up their apartment, with Ricky even agreeing to pay for all the materials. As Lucy and Ethel begin to reupholster an old chair by taking the feather stuffing out of it, Fred [[DidntThinkThisThrough plugs in a fan]] to get rid of the paint smell. Naturally this ends in disaster with feathers flying all over the place. Fred yells at Lucy about the mess "she" made and [[NeverMyFault blames her her]] for ruining their apartment. "''I'' have?" she understandably fires back, but Ethel backs Fred up and insists Lucy is to blame because it was all her idea to start with. In the end, the Ricardos must give the Mertzes their old furniture and pay to refurnish their own apartment, and the audience is expected to accept that everything turned out fine.
15th Oct '17 5:20:47 PM TudorRose
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Added DiffLines:

* ''Series/ILoveLucy'':
** In "Redecorating the Mertzes' Apartment", Lucy kindly offers to help Fred and Ethel fix up their apartment, with Ricky even agreeing to pay for all the materials. As Lucy and Ethel begin to reupholster an old chair by taking the feather stuffing out of it, Fred [[DidntThinkThisThrough plugs in a fan]] to get rid of the paint smell. Naturally this ends in disaster with feathers flying all over the place. Fred yells at Lucy about the mess "she" made and blames her for ruining their apartment. "''I'' have?" she understandably fires back, but Ethel backs Fred up and insists Lucy is to blame because it was all her idea to start with. In the end, the Ricardos must give the Mertzes their old furniture and pay to refurnish their own apartment, and the audience is expected to accept that everything turned out fine.
11th Oct '17 6:46:52 PM marcoasalazarm
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** The [[MemeticBadass Raikage]] is painted as a stubborn-headed git for refusing to forgive and rescind the 'kill on sight' order of Sasuke for the suspected murder of his brother. The manga tries to make it so that the Raikage's desire for revenge is clouding his personal judgment to the point where he's willing to start a CycleOfRevenge, but the fact remains that A) Sasuke is still at large, working for a terrorist organization, B) Raikage's brother and other such targets [[PersonOfMassDestruction hold the equivalent of a WMD]], C) Raikage isn't the only person who wants Sasuke's head.

to:

** The [[MemeticBadass Raikage]] is painted as a stubborn-headed git for refusing to forgive and rescind the 'kill on sight' order of Sasuke for the suspected murder of his brother. The manga tries to make it so that the Raikage's desire for revenge is clouding his personal judgment to the point where he's willing to start a CycleOfRevenge, but the fact remains that A) Sasuke is still at large, working for a terrorist organization, B) the Raikage's brother and other such targets [[PersonOfMassDestruction hold the equivalent of a WMD]], C) Raikage isn't the only person who wants Sasuke's head.



** It's actually made apparent In-Universe that he's not wrong, either, since the only reason the Jet Alone project is scrapped is because NERV has to sabotage the prototype. Sounds like they were pretty afraid that his arguments would have left NERV out in the cold at the next budget meeting had their test proven successful. Jet Alone was admittedly a dead-end project (It lacks an AT-Field so it has next to no defensive capabilities against Angel attacks) but the notion that they had to go out of their way to sabotage the test shows how strained faith in NERV is in universe.

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** It's actually made apparent In-Universe that he's not wrong, either, since the only reason the Jet Alone project is scrapped is because NERV has to sabotage the prototype. Sounds like they were pretty afraid that his arguments would have left NERV out in the cold at the next budget meeting had their test proven successful. Jet Alone was admittedly a dead-end project (It (it lacks an AT-Field so it has next to no defensive capabilities against Angel attacks) attacks, and with a ''nuclear reactor'', well...) but the notion that they had to go out of their way to sabotage the test shows how strained faith in NERV is in universe.



* The current page image is from a [[VerySpecialEpisode Very Special Issue]] of ''Shadow of the Bat'' that spoke out against drug use. [[Comicbook/RobinSeries Tim Drake]] tries to convince a group of kids at his school that they shouldn't use such things, only for the lead kid to provide the sensible argument pictured above (namely that Tim doesn't have any right to forbid the kids from doing what they want with their own bodies and that equally harmful drugs like tobacco and alcohol are legal so it's hypocritical to pull the "that stuff's poison" card). Though Tim does have a point in that kids generally aren't allowed those things either.

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* The current page image is from a [[VerySpecialEpisode Very Special Issue]] of ''Shadow of the Bat'' that spoke out against drug use. [[Comicbook/RobinSeries Tim Drake]] tries to convince a group of kids at his school that they shouldn't use such things, only for the lead kid to provide the sensible argument pictured above (namely that Tim doesn't have any right to forbid the kids from doing what they want with their own bodies and that equally harmful drugs like tobacco and alcohol are legal so it's hypocritical to pull the "that stuff's poison" card). Though Tim does have a point in that kids generally aren't allowed those things by law either.
11th Oct '17 5:18:01 PM Boggs
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** One episode has a photographer who's a repressed pedophile and sadist, but has never acted on these impulses despite increasing signs that his fantasies are escalating. (He lives across from a school-zone, has built a torture chamber, etc.) He later admits himself on the stand he has no relationship with his son because he was afraid of what he might end up doing to him. But the protagonists basically spend the entire episode trying to have him imprisoned for crimes there is '''no''' forensic (or even practical) evidence he committed, they themselves admit that they have a better emotional case than a legal one, and the man is found not guilty. This is supposed to be a moral defeat, despite the simple logic that you can't lock somebody away from something ''they haven't done'' just because you are afraid they ''might'' do it.

to:

** One episode has a photographer who's a repressed pedophile and sadist, but has never acted on these impulses despite increasing signs that his fantasies are escalating. (He lives across from a school-zone, has built a torture chamber, etc.) He later admits himself on the stand he has no relationship with his son because he was afraid of what he might end up doing to him. But the protagonists basically spend the entire episode trying to have him imprisoned for crimes there is '''no''' forensic (or even practical) evidence he committed, they themselves admit that they have a better emotional case than a legal one, and the man is found not guilty. This is supposed to be a moral defeat, despite the simple logic that you can't lock somebody away from for something ''they haven't done'' just because you are afraid they ''might'' do it.
11th Oct '17 5:17:01 PM Boggs
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Added DiffLines:

** One episode has a photographer who's a repressed pedophile and sadist, but has never acted on these impulses despite increasing signs that his fantasies are escalating. (He lives across from a school-zone, has built a torture chamber, etc.) He later admits himself on the stand he has no relationship with his son because he was afraid of what he might end up doing to him. But the protagonists basically spend the entire episode trying to have him imprisoned for crimes there is '''no''' forensic (or even practical) evidence he committed, they themselves admit that they have a better emotional case than a legal one, and the man is found not guilty. This is supposed to be a moral defeat, despite the simple logic that you can't lock somebody away from something ''they haven't done'' just because you are afraid they ''might'' do it.
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