History Main / Naytheist

17th May '17 7:24:59 AM Allronix
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* [[spoiler:[[ZenSurvivor Kreia]]]] from ''VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublic 2: The Sith Lords'' has this attitude towards The Force; she knows perfectly well it exists [[spoiler:and makes use of it as a Jedi]], but has a deep suspicion of it, is highly impressed by TheExile's ability to survive having it stripped from her body, [[spoiler:and considers The Force a manipulative 'god' whose 'will' keeps the sentient races of the galaxy from being truly able to self-determine. Her ultimate goal, after having witnessed first-hand from TheExile that life without The Force is possible, is to destroy it]].

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* [[spoiler:[[ZenSurvivor Kreia]]]] from ''VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublic 2: The Sith Lords'' has this attitude towards The Force; she knows perfectly well it exists [[spoiler:and makes use of it as a Jedi]], Jedi ''and'' Sith]], but has a deep suspicion of it, is highly impressed by TheExile's ability to survive having it stripped from her body, [[spoiler:and considers The Force a manipulative 'god' whose 'will' keeps the sentient races of the galaxy from being truly able to self-determine. Her ultimate goal, after having witnessed first-hand from TheExile that life without The Force is possible, is to destroy it]].it]].
** Likewise, Consular Companion Tharan Cedrax in ''VideoGame/StarWarsTheOldRepublic''; no one can deny what Jedi and Sith are capable of, but he's highly skeptical of the idea of any mysticism attached to it. As he's a scientist, he trusts what he can observe, measure, test, and replicate, and seeing as he's not a Sensitive, he has no way of figuring out how The Force works. He'll disapprove if the Consular suggests a Force-based solution over a mundane, practical one.
16th May '17 8:28:50 AM BeerBaron
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* The Dwemer in ''Franchise/TheElderScrolls'' universe weren't atheists per se, but had no particular use for the gods and eventually conceived of a plan to perform a magical ritual on the heart of a dead deity in the hopes of elevating themselves to godhood. This ritual caused the entire Dwemer race, to the last man, to spontaneously vanish from Tamriel, and in the thousand years hence loremasters have debated whether the Dwemer were destroyed by the gods for their arrogance or they managed to AscendToAHigherPlaneOfExistence as intended.
** The Dwemer in ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsIIIMorrowind Morrowind]]'' certainly had a rocky relationship with the various god-like powers. The tale of Azura and the Box is about one particularly irreverent Dwemer who tried to disprove Azura's omnipotence. It involved a supposedly sealed box, and sleight of hand to trick the people watching into believing that Azura saw something in the box that wasn't there. They were cursed for their troubles, obviously.

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* ''Franchise/TheElderScrolls''
** The extinct [[OurDwarvesAreDifferent Dwemer]] played this trope UpToEleven. While they acknowledged the existence of some of the entities that the other races considered "gods" ([[OurGodsAreDifferent Aedra, Daedra, etc.]]), the Dwemer refused to ''accept'' their divinity. They were said to especially despise the Daedra, mocking and scorning the "foolish" rituals of their followers (primarily their greatest rivals in Morrowind, the Chimer). They would even summon Daedra [[DidYouJustPunchOutCthulhu specifically to test their divinity]]. The science and reason focused Dwemer even extended this skepticism to ''reality'' itself, [[BlueAndOrangeMorality refuting anything as truly "real"]]. It is implied that this belief is a core element of how [[{{Magitek}} their technology]] functions. They devised technology that [[RealityWarper ignored the laws of reality or outright manipulated the tonal architecture of the Earth-Bones]] (the spirits of creation who gave their lives to set up the laws of nature and physics) simply through [[TheDeterminator sheer refusal to accept physical and magical limitations]].
The Dwemer in ''Franchise/TheElderScrolls'' universe weren't atheists per se, but had no particular use for the gods and eventually conceived of a plan to perform a magical ritual on the heart of a dead deity in the hopes of elevating themselves to godhood. This ritual caused the entire Dwemer race, to the last man, to spontaneously vanish would all [[RiddleForTheAges disappear entirely]] from Tamriel, any known plane of existence after discovering and in the thousand years hence loremasters have debated whether the Dwemer were destroyed by the gods for their arrogance or they managed to AscendToAHigherPlaneOfExistence as intended.
** The Dwemer in ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsIIIMorrowind Morrowind]]'' certainly had a rocky relationship
tampering with the various god-like powers. The [[CosmicKeystone heart]] of the [[GodIsDead "dead" god]], Lorkhan.
*** One Dwemer
tale (notably written by an UnreliableNarrator) tells of Azura and the Box is about one particularly irreverent a Dwemer who tried to disprove Azura's omnipotence. It involved a supposedly sealed box, and sleight of hand to trick tricks the people watching into believing that Daedric Prince Azura saw something in with a box containing a mirror. After she correctly guesses what the box holds, he opens the box and the mirror makes it appear as if the box was empty,[[note]]It's an old magic trick, the mirror is at an angle ergo when you look in the walls of the box are reflected and look like the other sides, so it looks like the box is empty.[[/note]] 'proving' she is fallible and so not a god. He dies that wasn't there. night, a smile on his face. The Dunmer tell a different story: Azura sees through the tricks and strikes him down there and then.
** Most of [[OurGodsAreDifferent the gods]] in ''TES'' are subject to this at some point. The Daedra are worshiped as gods by some, condemned as demons by others, acknowledged to exist but largely ignored by still others, and denied entirely by yet more. [[PhysicalGod The Tribunal]] were mortals who took the power of a fallen god.
They were cursed for worshiped as gods by the Dunmer, but while the Empire allowed their troubles, obviously.religion to continue in the interest of peace it refused to acknowledge their divinity. Finally, the Eight Divines are accepted by most races, but by the time of ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsVSkyrim Skyrim]]'', worship of the ninth Divine Talos, [[DeityOfHumanOrigin originally the mortal Tiber Septim]] who [[FounderOfTheKingdom founded the Third Empire]] and who was said to have ascended to godhood, has been banned and the Aldmeri Dominion at least no longer agree he is a god. The Nords are not happy about this, although the position of other humans and elves on the subject is never really explored.



** Most of the gods in TES are subject to this at some point. The Daedra are worshipped as gods by some, condemned as demons by others, acknowledged to exist but largely ignored by still others, and denied entirely by yet more. The Tribunal were mortals who took the power of a fallen god. They were worshipped as gods by the Dunmer, but while the Empire allowed their religion to continue in the interest of peace it refused to acknowledge their divinity. Finally, the Eight Divines are accepted by most races, but by the time of Skyrim worship of the ninth Divine Talos, originally the mortal Tiber Septim who first formed the empire and who was said to have ascended to godhood, has been banned and the Altmer at least no long agree he is a god. The Nords are not happy about this, although the position of other humans and elves on the subject is never really explored.
14th May '17 1:45:31 PM rjd1922
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The Nay-Theist is ''not'' an atheist or agnostic -- he is well aware of the existence of the gods (or {{God}}), and freely admits it; he just refuses to worship them, or to "believe" in them in any strong Spiritual sense beyond merely acknowledging the fact of their existence. Perhaps he has some personal grudge against the gods for something they did (or [[ReligiousRussianRoulette didn't do]]); perhaps he refuses to accept divine judgment because [[JerkassGods they don't measure up]] to ''his'' moral standards; perhaps he's just the independent type by nature; or perhaps he simply thinks( or knows) there is AlwaysABiggerFish, making the search for an "all powerful" creator a pointless venture.

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The Nay-Theist is ''not'' an atheist or agnostic -- he is well aware of the existence of the gods (or {{God}}), and freely admits it; he just refuses to worship them, or to "believe" in them in any strong Spiritual sense beyond merely acknowledging the fact of their existence. Perhaps he has some personal grudge against the gods for something they did (or [[ReligiousRussianRoulette didn't do]]); perhaps he refuses to accept divine judgment because [[JerkassGods they don't measure up]] to ''his'' moral standards; perhaps he's just the independent type by nature; or perhaps he simply thinks( or thinks (or knows) there is AlwaysABiggerFish, making the search for an "all powerful" creator a pointless venture.
7th May '17 5:00:49 AM FlakyPorcupine
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* The Hellion in ''VideoGame/DarkestDungeon'' has a move called Reject the Gods, which will reduce her stress at the cost of her partners increasing in stress, with bonus stress for religious characters. With the Crusader, the Occultist, and the Vestal as proof that they grab their power from some higher being(s?).
4th May '17 3:02:13 PM FF32
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* Occurs regularly in the ''Franchise/ShinMegamiTensei'' games, and depending on the path you take the PlayerCharacter is often one. To start with, you beat on (and then enslave) various gods out of world history. Lucifer is often an ally (of convenience or genuine). It snowballs from there, with any path other than the Lawful leading you into direct opposition to God or His angels in multiple titles. Even the ''VideoGame/{{Persona}}'' series touches on it, since you can [[spoiler:punch Philemon (one of two confirmed true gods in the world) right in the face]] at the end of ''VideoGame/{{Persona 2}}: Innocent Sin''.

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* Occurs regularly in the ''Franchise/ShinMegamiTensei'' games, and depending on the path you take the PlayerCharacter is often one. To start with, you beat on (and then enslave) various gods out of world history. Lucifer is often an ally (of convenience or genuine). It snowballs from there, with any path other than the Lawful leading you into direct opposition to God or His angels in multiple titles. Even the ''VideoGame/{{Persona}}'' ''[[Franchise/ShinMegamiTenseiPersona Persona]]'' series touches on it, since you can [[spoiler:punch Philemon (one of two confirmed true gods in the world) right in the face]] at the end of ''VideoGame/{{Persona 2}}: Innocent Sin''.
26th Apr '17 4:55:13 PM Fireblood
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** Davos. Stannis points this position as illogical since Davos continues to hold it after witnessing Melisandre's powers first hand. True to this trope, however, Davos's continued rejection of the "true god" is likely less about not believing and more about not wanting to worship something that terrifying. He flat out spells it out to Melisandre while asking for her to resurrect Jon Snow, saying he wants the help of a LadyOfBlackMagic, not her Lord of Light.

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** Davos. Stannis points this position as illogical since Davos continues to hold it Even after he admits the Lord of Light exists after witnessing Melisandre's powers first hand. hand, he's not fond of Him (or her). True to this trope, however, Davos's continued rejection of the "true god" is likely less about not believing and more about not wanting to worship something that terrifying. He flat out spells it out to Melisandre while asking for her to resurrect Jon Snow, saying he wants the help of a LadyOfBlackMagic, not her Lord of Light.



** In ''Series/StarTrekTheNextGeneration'' Captain Jean-Luc Picard is a nay-theist specifically to the idea of [[SufficientlyAdvancedAlien Q]] as God: "I refuse to believe the afterlife is run by you. The universe isn't so badly designed." It helps that Picard knows there are other Q around. When you have other beings with the same amount of power, by definition, you can't be all-powerful. Also note that while Q has been called the God of Lies by at least one species, he has never actually referred to himself as a god and meant it.

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** In ''Series/StarTrekTheNextGeneration'' Captain Jean-Luc Picard is a nay-theist nay theist specifically to the idea of [[SufficientlyAdvancedAlien Q]] as God: "I refuse to believe the afterlife is run by you. The universe isn't so badly designed." It helps that Picard knows there are other Q around. When you have other beings with the same amount of power, by definition, you can't be all-powerful. Also note that while Q has been called the God of Lies by at least one species, he has never actually referred to himself as a god and meant it.
26th Apr '17 9:32:36 AM intastiel
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* In ''Webcomic/{{Unsounded}}'', the Ssaelit religion has this as a core tenet, seeing the four creator deities as capricious {{Jerkass God}}s who engineered all mortal pain and suffering for their entertainment, and who were {{kill|TheGod}}ed by [[DeityOfHumanOrigin Ssael]] to free the world from their tyranny.
23rd Apr '17 11:19:20 AM gb00393
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* In ''Series/GameOfThrones'', Cersei says her father believes in the gods, he just doesn't like them. Tyrion has much the same attitude as his father...except for that god of tits and wine he's heard of, assuming it exists.

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* In ''Series/GameOfThrones'', ''Series/GameOfThrones'':
**
Cersei says her father believes in the gods, he just doesn't like them. Tyrion has much the same attitude as his father...except for that god of tits and wine he's heard of, assuming it exists.exists.
** Davos. Stannis points this position as illogical since Davos continues to hold it after witnessing Melisandre's powers first hand. True to this trope, however, Davos's continued rejection of the "true god" is likely less about not believing and more about not wanting to worship something that terrifying. He flat out spells it out to Melisandre while asking for her to resurrect Jon Snow, saying he wants the help of a LadyOfBlackMagic, not her Lord of Light.
--> '''Davos:''' Fuck him then. Fuck all of them. Iím not a devout man. Obviously. Seven gods, drowned gods, tree gods, itís all the same. Iím not asking the Lord oíLight for help. Iím asking the woman who showed me miracles exist.
22nd Apr '17 3:17:13 PM DaibhidC
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** Havelock Vetinari is extremely intelligent and fully aware of the Disc's deities, but [[InVinoVeritas after a few drinks]] in ''Discworld/UnseenAcademicals'' stated that "If there is any kind of supreme being, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior."[[note]]He came to this belief as a young man who watched as a mother otter feeds her pup a dead salmon and her laid eggs. Mother and child designed to feast upon mother and child.[[/note]]

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** Havelock Vetinari is extremely intelligent and fully aware of the Disc's deities, but [[InVinoVeritas after a few drinks]] in ''Discworld/UnseenAcademicals'' stated that "If there is any kind of supreme being, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior."[[note]]He came to this belief as a young man who watched as a mother otter feeds her pup a dead still-living salmon and her laid unlaid eggs. Mother and child designed to feast upon mother and child.[[/note]]
29th Mar '17 7:42:11 AM baschapp
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The Nay-Theist is ''not'' an atheist or agnostic -- he is well aware of the existence of the gods (or {{God}}), and freely admits it; he just refuses to worship them, or to "believe" in them in any strong Spiritual sense beyond merely acknowledging the fact of their existence. Perhaps he has some personal grudge against the gods for something they did (or [[ReligiousRussianRoulette didn't do]]); perhaps he refuses to accept the Gods' judgment because [[JerkassGods they don't measure up]] to ''his'' moral standards; perhaps he's just the independent type by nature; or perhaps he simply thinks there is AlwaysABiggerFish, making the search for an "all powerful" creator a pointless venture.

to:

The Nay-Theist is ''not'' an atheist or agnostic -- he is well aware of the existence of the gods (or {{God}}), and freely admits it; he just refuses to worship them, or to "believe" in them in any strong Spiritual sense beyond merely acknowledging the fact of their existence. Perhaps he has some personal grudge against the gods for something they did (or [[ReligiousRussianRoulette didn't do]]); perhaps he refuses to accept the Gods' divine judgment because [[JerkassGods they don't measure up]] to ''his'' moral standards; perhaps he's just the independent type by nature; or perhaps he simply thinks thinks( or knows) there is AlwaysABiggerFish, making the search for an "all powerful" creator a pointless venture.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.Naytheist