History Main / MugglesDoItBetter

13th Nov '17 8:25:29 PM spiritplumber
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* ''Fanfic/LeftBeyond'' has quite a bit of this. The Omega develop counters to angelic powers by observation, trial and error, and sacrificing a lot of [[RedShirt]]s to the cause until they find something that works. Once they do find something that works, they apply it industrially, so that by the end of the Millennial Kingdom, Angels and even Archangels can be tackled by drones with minimal loss of life.
7th Nov '17 3:24:01 PM Actua11y
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In a SpeculativeFiction setting there are often a lot of people going on about how incredible and powerful the {{Phlebotinum}} is, which is why people who have it are the ones who move the plot rather than all the ordinary {{Muggles}} who need to be rescued.

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In a SpeculativeFiction setting setting, there are often a lot of people going on about how incredible and powerful the {{Phlebotinum}} is, which is why people who have it are the ones who move the plot rather than all the ordinary {{Muggles}} who need to be rescued.



* The [[UsefulNotes/WorldWarII WWII]]/Vietnam war-era weapons that have crossed over to the world of Halkeginia in ''LightNovel/TheFamiliarOfZero'' appear to far out-power all elements of offensive magic except that of the Void. Giant golem? LAW[[note]][[UsefulNotes/ModernBattlefieldWeapons Light Anti-Armor Weapon]][[/note]] beats it. Dragons? WWII era Zero beats them. Giant walking magically impervious armor? Flak cannon shoots straight through it[[note]]Though it needed magic boost to pierce force field[[/note]].

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* The [[UsefulNotes/WorldWarII WWII]]/Vietnam war-era War-era weapons that have crossed over to the world of Halkeginia in ''LightNovel/TheFamiliarOfZero'' appear to far out-power all elements of offensive magic except that of the Void. Giant golem? LAW[[note]][[UsefulNotes/ModernBattlefieldWeapons Light Anti-Armor Weapon]][[/note]] beats it. Dragons? WWII era Zero beats them. Giant walking magically impervious armor? Flak cannon shoots straight through it[[note]]Though it needed magic boost to pierce force field[[/note]].



* This is initially ''Averted'' in ''Manga/AttackOnTitan'', humanity is barely capable of holding back against Titans despite possessing early firearms which for the exception of heavy artillery pieces with exploding shells are completely useless against Titans and 3D Gear, the only infantry weapon to be truly effective against Titans is barely able to even the fight and even then unless the soldiers are extremely skilled, killing even a single Titan often means sacrificing several men and women. Only when Eren gains his Titan Shifter powers does the humanity have any real chance to fight back against the Titan threat. [[spoiler: However in the world outside the walls and Paradis island where technology has been improving at a steady pace, Marley Kingdom that has relied almost entirely on Titans to maintain their military supremacy becomes increasingly threatened by its more technologically advanced rivals who have developed industrial-era weapons specifically designed to kill titans that are even capable of destroying the almost impervious Armored Titan.]]

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* This is initially ''Averted'' in ''Manga/AttackOnTitan'', humanity is barely capable of holding back against Titans despite possessing early firearms which for the exception of heavy artillery pieces with exploding shells are completely useless against Titans and 3D Gear, the only infantry weapon to be truly effective against Titans is barely able to even the fight and even then unless the soldiers are extremely skilled, killing even a single Titan often means sacrificing several men and women. Only when Eren gains his Titan Shifter powers does the humanity have any real chance to fight back against the Titan threat. [[spoiler: However [[spoiler:However in the world outside the walls and Paradis island where technology has been improving at a steady pace, Marley Kingdom that has relied almost entirely on Titans to maintain their military supremacy becomes increasingly threatened by its more technologically advanced rivals who have developed industrial-era weapons specifically designed to kill titans that are even capable of destroying the almost impervious Armored Titan.]]



* In his first fight against the Masters of Silence, ComicBook/IronMan was confronted with the fact that they were [[KungFuProofMook immune to his repulsor bolts]]. In their second battle, Iron Man wore the so-called War Machine armor, equipped with [[SuperHeroPackingHeat guns]]. [[MoreDakka A lot of guns]]. The Masters of Silence were promptly trashed before being confronted with the fact they had been tricked in attacking Stark in first place.
* A long-standing question in ''Comicbook/XMen'' is why Sentinels are a threat to mutantkind. Magneto has demonstrated a penchant for using his powers and scientific genius to construct incredible {{Supervillain Lair}}s inside active volcanoes or on asteroids, and even uses robots himself from time to time. But for some reason he never seems to consider countering human Sentinel technology by simply building his own comparable battle robots.

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* In his first fight against the Masters of Silence, ComicBook/IronMan was confronted with the fact that they were [[KungFuProofMook immune to his repulsor bolts]]. In their second battle, Iron Man wore the so-called War Machine armor, equipped with [[SuperHeroPackingHeat guns]]. [[MoreDakka A lot of guns]]. The Masters of Silence were promptly trashed before being confronted with the fact they had been tricked in into attacking Stark in first place.
* A long-standing question in ''Comicbook/XMen'' is why Sentinels are a threat to mutantkind. Magneto has demonstrated a penchant for using his powers and scientific genius to construct incredible {{Supervillain Lair}}s inside active volcanoes or on asteroids, and even uses robots himself from time to time. But for some reason reason, he never seems to consider countering human Sentinel technology by simply building his own comparable battle robots.



* In ''FanFic/TheThreeKingsHunt'' the mages after centuries of losing to the wizards have begun mounting an affective resistance by using the [[spoiler: Internet]]

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* In ''FanFic/TheThreeKingsHunt'' the mages after centuries of losing to the wizards have begun mounting an affective resistance by using the [[spoiler: Internet]][[spoiler:Internet]]



* Discussed in the ''LightNovel/TheFamiliarOfZero''/''VideoGame/{{Prototype}}'' crossover ''Fanfic/{{Unfamiliar}}''; while magic can do many thing technology can't, it's also [[AwesomeButImpractical inefficient]] for more [[MundaneUtility mundane]] things. For example, an earth mage can do the work of ten farming machines; however, it takes years to train a earth mage, whereas you can build farming machines in days.

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* Discussed in the ''LightNovel/TheFamiliarOfZero''/''VideoGame/{{Prototype}}'' crossover ''Fanfic/{{Unfamiliar}}''; while magic can do many thing technology can't, it's also [[AwesomeButImpractical inefficient]] for more [[MundaneUtility mundane]] things. For example, an earth mage can do the work of ten farming machines; however, it takes years to train a an earth mage, whereas you can build farming machines in days.



** Blackwolf studies dark magic and combines it with WW2 styled tech exacavated by his minions. He eventually uses Nazi propaganda (implied to be augmented with magic) to get his disoganized army in shape... while using it as psychological warfare.
** Then the ending is all set up for a showdown between Blackwolf and TheProtagoist Avatar, the two wizarding brothers. [[spoiler: Avatar just shoots his brother, since as he mentioned earlier, he was out of practice with his magic]].

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** Blackwolf studies dark magic and combines it with WW2 styled tech exacavated excavated by his minions. He eventually uses Nazi propaganda (implied to be augmented with magic) to get his disoganized disorganized army in shape... while using it as psychological warfare.
** Then the ending is all set up for a showdown between Blackwolf and TheProtagoist Avatar, the two wizarding brothers. [[spoiler: Avatar [[spoiler:Avatar just shoots his brother, since as he mentioned earlier, he was out of practice with his magic]].



* In the French movie ''Arthur et la guerre des deux mondes'' (Arthur and the war of two worlds), the BigBad entered the human world thinking he would rollover humanity with his army of really stupid mooks... he did rollover the population of a mostly unarmed and peaceful really small town. But when an ''actual human army'' show up, they pulverized the EvilArmy in ''seconds''. Hell, the tanks were completely overkill. Granted, the Hero does lampshade the fact that the BigBad had utterly no clue about humans' capabilities, as he come from a millimeters-sized population of fairy-like creatures that lived in the gardens and forests.

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* In the French movie ''Arthur et la guerre des deux mondes'' (Arthur and the war of two worlds), the BigBad entered the human world thinking he would rollover humanity with his army of really stupid mooks... he did rollover the population of a mostly unarmed and peaceful really small town. But when an ''actual human army'' show up, they pulverized the EvilArmy in ''seconds''. Hell, the tanks were completely overkill. Granted, the Hero does lampshade {{Lampshade}} the fact that the BigBad had utterly no clue about humans' capabilities, as he come from a millimeters-sized population of fairy-like creatures that lived in the gardens and forests.



* In ''Film/TheMist'', strange monsters from some other world are brought in after some secret military experiments in a nearby base. [[spoiler:At the end, it is revealed that the military actually has the situation under control, leading dozens of survivors to safety and almost casually burning down the nightmarish nests with flame throwers.]]

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* In ''Film/TheMist'', strange monsters from some other world are brought in after some secret military experiments in a nearby base. [[spoiler:At the end, it is revealed that the military actually has the situation under control, leading dozens of survivors to safety and almost casually burning down the nightmarish nests with flame throwers.flamethrowers.]]



*** There are several instances in all the books where common Muggle technology would have made life a lot easier or solved a plot point altogether. If they had some kind of magical-equivalent Google search for the library, half the suspense of Books 1 (Nicholas Flamel), 2 (The Chamber of Secrets), 3 (Sirius Black's bio), and 4 (gillyweed) would definitely be eliminated. The communication difficulties in 5, 6, and 7 would have been greatly lessened with message boards and wikis, and if they had some kind of standardized instant-communication system like cell phones and two-way radios, [[spoiler:Sirius wouldn't have died; although, Harry did have the magic mirror, the wizard equivalent of a cell phone, he just [[ForgotICouldFly forgot that he had it]] (a fact which is [[LampshadeHanging lampshaded]] at the very end of the book)]]. Nor would [[spoiler:Moody]] have, if the group had just hopped into a van. Ron can be forgiven for the ignorance, maybe even Harry given the way the Dursleys raised him, but Hermione? She should have at least commented on the lack.

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*** There are several instances in all the books where common Muggle technology would have made life a lot easier or solved a plot point altogether. If they had some kind of magical-equivalent Google search for the library, half the suspense of Books 1 (Nicholas Flamel), 2 (The Chamber of Secrets), 3 (Sirius Black's bio), and 4 (gillyweed) would definitely be eliminated. The communication difficulties in 5, 6, and 7 would have been greatly lessened with message boards and wikis, and if they had some kind of standardized instant-communication system like cell phones and two-way radios, [[spoiler:Sirius wouldn't have died; although, although Harry did have the magic mirror, the wizard equivalent of a cell phone, he just [[ForgotICouldFly forgot that he had it]] (a fact which is [[LampshadeHanging lampshaded]] at the very end of the book)]]. Nor would [[spoiler:Moody]] have, if the group had just hopped into a van. Ron can be forgiven for the ignorance, maybe even Harry given the way the Dursleys raised him, but Hermione? She should have at least commented on the lack.



*** ''Literature/TheTalesOfBeedleTheBard'' contains some of Dumbledore's reflections on [[BurnTheWitch medieval witch hunts]], indirectly proving that Muggles Do It Better if wizards aren't using their brains. He notes that when the Inquisition came knocking, not everyone who was arrested was a muggle, and not every captured wizard was able to effortlessly spirit themself away. TheMasquerade began for a very good reason -- as a result, the muggles have never really had (or wanted) an answer for it.

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*** ''Literature/TheTalesOfBeedleTheBard'' contains some of Dumbledore's reflections on [[BurnTheWitch medieval witch hunts]], indirectly proving that Muggles Do It Better if wizards aren't using their brains. He notes that when the Inquisition came knocking, not everyone who was arrested was a muggle, and not every captured wizard was able to effortlessly spirit themself themselves away. TheMasquerade began for a very good reason -- as a result, the muggles have never really had (or wanted) an answer for it.



** One large thing to be considered is that most of the Harry Potter examples also mainly focus on the Wizarding community in the Untied Kingdom. As such, these tropes could be played different to varying degrees in different countries and continents.
** Another is that while elecitricity and magic don't get along, magic can be used to replicate the results of such items, such as seen with wizarding radio and the aforementioned transportation. It's unknown what are magic's limits with replicating Muggle technologies, especially when one takes culture into play (though there seems to be a hint that anything with a microtransistor may be out of reach.)

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** One large thing to be considered is that most of the Harry Potter examples also mainly focus on the Wizarding community in the Untied United Kingdom. As such, these tropes could be played different to varying degrees in different countries and continents.
** Another is that while elecitricity electricity and magic don't get along, magic can be used to replicate the results of such items, such as seen with wizarding radio and the aforementioned transportation. It's unknown what are magic's limits with replicating Muggle technologies, especially when one takes culture into play (though there seems to be a hint that anything with a microtransistor may be out of reach.)



*** Marcone himself proves this trope applies in the short story "Even Hand", using a combination of firepower, booby traps, and prepared lines of defense to erode a Fomor lord's defenses until a single rune-marked bullet could take his opponent down. [[spoiler: The Fomor wasn't impeded by the sprinkler system, but that's because the defenses were designed to kill ''Harry'', not a Fomor.]]

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*** Marcone himself proves this trope applies in the short story "Even Hand", using a combination of firepower, booby traps, and prepared lines of defense to erode a Fomor lord's defenses until a single rune-marked bullet could take his opponent down. [[spoiler: The [[spoiler:The Fomor wasn't impeded by the sprinkler system, but that's because the defenses were designed to kill ''Harry'', not a Fomor.]]



*** Speaking specifically of [[TheFairFolk the Fae]], ancient beings connected to nature itself: The upper class can cause storms, throw lighting, fire, and ice, as well as do any other magical spell as easily as muggles breathe. But because bullets have [[ColdIron iron]] in them, muggle bullets can rip through most every defense a fae has. Even Mab, Queen of Air and Darkness, and on par with angels in terms of power, jumps back when a ''nail'' rolls towards her. [[spoiler:Only Mother Winter, the destroyer and final end (as she calls herself) has the power to touch iron. And she turns it to rust.]]

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*** Speaking specifically of [[TheFairFolk the Fae]], ancient beings connected to nature itself: The upper class can cause storms, throw lighting, lightning, fire, and ice, as well as do any other magical spell as easily as muggles breathe. But because bullets have [[ColdIron iron]] in them, muggle bullets can rip through most every defense a fae has. Even Mab, Queen of Air and Darkness, and on par with angels in terms of power, jumps back when a ''nail'' rolls towards her. [[spoiler:Only Mother Winter, the destroyer and final end (as she calls herself) has the power to touch iron. And she turns it to rust.]]



*** It also goes the other way: the most impressively powerful wizard spell so far involved the mundane humans doing all of the actual work [[spoiler: of putting the satellite the blackstaff used for his ColonyDrop up there in the first place]], and the most complex wizard spell involves using the muggles' modern plethora of construction materials and surveying methods to build a hyper-accurate simulacrum of a city for use in SympatheticMagic.

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*** It also goes the other way: the most impressively powerful wizard spell so far involved the mundane humans doing all of the actual work [[spoiler: of [[spoiler:of putting the satellite the blackstaff used for his ColonyDrop up there in the first place]], and the most complex wizard spell involves using the muggles' modern plethora of construction materials and surveying methods to build a hyper-accurate simulacrum of a city for use in SympatheticMagic.



* Creator/RobertSheckley has a story where a couple running an electrical appliance store have a few of those stolen. Turns out it was a genie from the past who got a job at the royal palace [[{{Nepotism}} solely through having influential relatives]], and, when the queen demanded spells to clean her clothes or cool her chambers, he found the spells to be too complex and could do nothing but steal some tech from our time. At first, they try to banish him (doesn't work because a genie is immune to all spells except from his own country, which they don't know). Then, they sabotage the devices and refuse to do maintenance on the ones already taken. So the genie [[TimeTravelForFunAndProfit attempts to start trading]]. At first, they are afraid it will cause a TemporalParadox, but change their mind after the genie says [[spoiler: "Don't worry, I'm from {{Atlantis}}. A couple of years and nothing will remain of it '''or''' your tech"]]. Then they decide to trade as much as possible.

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* Creator/RobertSheckley has a story where a couple running an electrical appliance store have a few of those stolen. Turns out it was a genie from the past who got a job at the royal palace [[{{Nepotism}} solely through having influential relatives]], and, when the queen demanded spells to clean her clothes or cool her chambers, he found the spells to be too complex and could do nothing but steal some tech from our time. At first, they try to banish him (doesn't work because a genie is immune to all spells except from his own country, which they don't know). Then, they sabotage the devices and refuse to do maintenance on the ones already taken. So the genie [[TimeTravelForFunAndProfit attempts to start trading]]. At first, they are afraid it will cause a TemporalParadox, but change their mind after the genie says [[spoiler: "Don't [[spoiler:"Don't worry, I'm from {{Atlantis}}. A couple of years and nothing will remain of it '''or''' your tech"]]. Then they decide to trade as much as possible.



* ''Series/StargateSG1'' makes great use of this trope (as, to a lesser extent, do [[Franchise/StargateVerse its spin-offs]]). The [[ScaryDogmaticAliens Goa'uld]] have starships, plasma cannons, and teleporters. The heroes have... normal, modern-day U.S. Air Force issue weapons. But the entire Goa'uld society essentially ''runs'' on CoolButInefficient -- their high-tech staff weapons are scary and flashy, but inaccurate and have a slow fire rate; their Space Fighters are impressive, but a surface-to-air missile will bring them down as surely as a plasma blast would. This is often lampshaded in the show. [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjlCVW_ouL8 In one episode]], O'Neill points out explicitly that Earth's comparatively low-tech weapons can be superior to the Goa'ulds' AppliedPhlebotinum because the Goa'uld are obsessed with intimidating and impressing their enemies, while primitive Earth weapons are designed simply to ''kill''. As the show goes on Earth gradually gets more and more AppliedPhlebotinum of its own, but even then the protagonists remain armed with old-fashioned [[{{Muggle}} Tau'ri]] guns.

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* ''Series/StargateSG1'' makes great use of this trope (as, to a lesser extent, do [[Franchise/StargateVerse its spin-offs]]). The [[ScaryDogmaticAliens Goa'uld]] have starships, plasma cannons, and teleporters. The heroes have... normal, modern-day U.S. Air Force issue weapons. But the entire Goa'uld society essentially ''runs'' on CoolButInefficient -- their high-tech staff weapons are scary and flashy, but inaccurate and have a slow fire rate; their Space Fighters are impressive, but a surface-to-air missile will bring them down as surely as a plasma blast would. This is often lampshaded {{Lampshaded}} in the show. [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjlCVW_ouL8 In one episode]], O'Neill points out explicitly that Earth's comparatively low-tech weapons can be superior to the Goa'ulds' AppliedPhlebotinum because the Goa'uld are obsessed with intimidating and impressing their enemies, while primitive Earth weapons are designed simply to ''kill''. As the show goes on Earth gradually gets more and more AppliedPhlebotinum of its own, but even then the protagonists remain armed with old-fashioned [[{{Muggle}} Tau'ri]] guns.



** Defied in the special episode ''Dreamland'', when the Doctor tries to warn [[GeneralRipper Colonel Stark]] about the most likely betrayal of his [[HordeOfAlienLocusts Viperox]] allies. Stark immediatly points out how absurd it seems that a "an army a giant cockroaches" could defeat tanks and planes, but the Doctor replies by revealing the Viperox once defeated an alien species whose technology was ''1000 years ahead'' of Earth's. When Stark later pulls a HeelFaceTurn, his forces indeed prove uneffective against the Viperox.

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** Defied in the special episode ''Dreamland'', when the Doctor tries to warn [[GeneralRipper Colonel Stark]] about the most likely betrayal of his [[HordeOfAlienLocusts Viperox]] allies. Stark immediatly immediately points out how absurd it seems that a "an army a giant cockroaches" could defeat tanks and planes, but the Doctor replies by revealing the Viperox once defeated an alien species whose technology was ''1000 years ahead'' of Earth's. When Stark later pulls a HeelFaceTurn, his forces indeed prove uneffective ineffective against the Viperox.



** In ''Videogame/StarWarsTheOldRepublic'' a Sith totally laughs off the Bounty Hunter character, as a force user 'cannot be defeated by some hired gun'. One short battle later and she's gasping on the floor, heavily injured. Indeed Bounty Hunters use plenty of mundane weapons that both Jedi and Sith are noted as weak to, such as close range fire attacks, explosives and dart weapons. Appropriately, the Bounty Hunter is offered a chance to join the Mandalorians (see above).

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** In ''Videogame/StarWarsTheOldRepublic'' a Sith totally laughs off the Bounty Hunter character, as a force user 'cannot be defeated by some hired gun'. One short battle later and she's gasping on the floor, heavily injured. Indeed Bounty Hunters use plenty of mundane weapons that both Jedi and Sith are noted as weak to, such as close range fire attacks, explosives explosives, and dart weapons. Appropriately, the Bounty Hunter is offered a chance to join the Mandalorians (see above).



** This trope is generally subverted in other Final Fantasy games. For example, in ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyVII'' the Huge Materia Bomb is not sufficiently powerful enough to destroy the [[ColonyDrop meteor]]. It's zig-zagged in [=FF7=] with the [[AttackOfTheFiftyFootWhatever Weapons]] in plot scenes, however, where the Sister Ray does in fact have enough power to kill both Sapphire and Diamond Weapon; the former with a [[BoomHeadshot shot to the exposed head]], the latter when upgraded with the Mako reactors in Midgar was able to punch through Diamond Weapon and lose little to no actual power from the actual shot. On top of taking out two Weapons, the Sister Ray also tears down the barrier surrounding the [[VeryDefinitelyFinalDungeon North Crater]] with the same shot it killed the Diamond Weapon with.

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** This trope is generally subverted in other Final Fantasy games. For example, in ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyVII'' the Huge Materia Bomb is not sufficiently powerful enough to destroy the [[ColonyDrop meteor]]. It's zig-zagged in [=FF7=] with the [[AttackOfTheFiftyFootWhatever Weapons]] in plot scenes, however, where the Sister Ray does in fact have enough power to kill both Sapphire and Diamond Weapon; the former with a [[BoomHeadshot shot to the exposed head]], the latter latter, when upgraded with the Mako reactors in Midgar Midgar, was able to punch through Diamond Weapon and lose little to no actual power from the actual shot. On top of taking out two Weapons, the Sister Ray also tears down the barrier surrounding the [[VeryDefinitelyFinalDungeon North Crater]] with the same shot it killed the Diamond Weapon with.



* ''Webcomic/{{Homestuck}}'' has this in a pretty big way. The trolls are a race with technology that far surpasses ours, are more durable, stronger and faster, and some of them even have psychic powers. The first set of players [[spoiler: (the Beforan trolls)]] failed miserably due to teen drama and being wholly unprepared to take on Sgrub, so [[spoiler: [[TheDragon Doctor Scratch]] conditioned the post-scratch troll race, molding [[CrapsackWorld Alternia]] and the trolls into the psychotic, bloodthirsty and violent race that they are so that they are ready to take on Sgrub. ]] It mostly works, with the second set of players [[spoiler: (the Alternian trolls)]] succeeding in beating the game and [[spoiler: creating a viable universe in the form of Bilious Slick, which is the universe that the beta kids hail from.]] Then, we have our four humans, ordinary everyday kids without any special powers. Although they have a bit of a rough start, they quickly blitz through the game, [[spoiler: with all four reaching god tier, Jade and Dave creating a viable Genesis tadpole that isn't inherently flawed like Bilious Slick, John retrieving the Tumor from the battlefield, the Scratch being initiated and ALL FOUR players escaping the scratch successfully.]] And it's implied that they did all this [[spoiler: IN TWENTY-FOUR HOURS.]]
** In fact, had it not been for [[spoiler: [[BigBad Lord English's]] interference and the fundamentally broken nature of their universe which caused their session to [[GoneHorriblyWrong go off the rails spectacularly]]]], they could have very well succeeded.

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* ''Webcomic/{{Homestuck}}'' has this in a pretty big way. The trolls are a race with technology that far surpasses ours, are more durable, stronger and faster, and some of them even have psychic powers. The first set of players [[spoiler: (the [[spoiler:(the Beforan trolls)]] failed miserably due to teen drama and being wholly unprepared to take on Sgrub, so [[spoiler: [[TheDragon [[spoiler:[[TheDragon Doctor Scratch]] conditioned the post-scratch troll race, molding [[CrapsackWorld Alternia]] and the trolls into the psychotic, bloodthirsty and violent race that they are so that they are ready to take on Sgrub. ]] It mostly works, with the second set of players [[spoiler: (the [[spoiler:(the Alternian trolls)]] succeeding in beating the game and [[spoiler: creating [[spoiler:creating a viable universe in the form of Bilious Slick, which is the universe that the beta kids hail from.]] Then, we have our four humans, ordinary everyday kids without any special powers. Although they have a bit of a rough start, they quickly blitz through the game, [[spoiler: with [[spoiler:with all four reaching god tier, Jade and Dave creating a viable Genesis tadpole that isn't inherently flawed like Bilious Slick, John retrieving the Tumor from the battlefield, the Scratch being initiated and ALL FOUR players escaping the scratch successfully.]] And it's implied that they did all this [[spoiler: IN [[spoiler:IN TWENTY-FOUR HOURS.]]
** In fact, had it not been for [[spoiler: [[BigBad [[spoiler:[[BigBad Lord English's]] interference and the fundamentally broken nature of their universe which caused their session to [[GoneHorriblyWrong go off the rails spectacularly]]]], they could have very well succeeded.



* ''Literature/TheSalvationWar'': This is pretty much the entire theme of the work. Humans have modern day technology. Demons have superpowers like [[MadeOfIron superhuman strength]], [[AttackOfTheFiftyFootWhatever huge size in some cases]], and [[DemonicPossession limited mind control]], but they have Bronze Age technology. Humans are pretty quick to figure out [[MoreDakka how to counter]] the superpowers. It goes [[CurbStompBattle very badly]] for the demons. Angels have better superpowers than demons, so they pose more of a threat to human armies, [[spoiler: but they still lose]].
** Just to give you an idea how much better the human weapons are than the demonic armies [[spoiler: in the first battle 440,000 demons marched against a prepared group of a few (unnumbered) thousands of humans. 600 human lives were lost. Only 300 demons '''[[CurbStompBattle survived]]'''.]]
** The commander of the demonic invasion force performs a HeelFaceTurn after a group of men in plain suits show him a little video titled [[spoiler: [[NukeEm The Manhattan Project]]]].
*** [[spoiler: He began to change sides when humans showed mercy and didn't eradicate him and his family, something neither he nor his overlords who sent them all to die in disgrace expected. He'd heard humans speaking of some weapon they were afraid of themselves, but it was the video that explained what they were afraid of and why, and showed him that the humans could have slaughtered his forces ''at will'' and had just been playing with him.]]

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* ''Literature/TheSalvationWar'': This is pretty much the entire theme of the work. Humans have modern day technology. Demons have superpowers like [[MadeOfIron superhuman strength]], [[AttackOfTheFiftyFootWhatever huge size in some cases]], and [[DemonicPossession limited mind control]], but they have Bronze Age technology. Humans are pretty quick to figure out [[MoreDakka how to counter]] the superpowers. It goes [[CurbStompBattle very badly]] for the demons. Angels have better superpowers than demons, so they pose more of a threat to human armies, [[spoiler: but [[spoiler:but they still lose]].
** Just to give you an idea how much better the human weapons are than the demonic armies [[spoiler: in [[spoiler:in the first battle 440,000 demons marched against a prepared group of a few (unnumbered) thousands of humans. 600 human lives were lost. Only 300 demons '''[[CurbStompBattle survived]]'''.]]
** The commander of the demonic invasion force performs a HeelFaceTurn after a group of men in plain suits show him a little video titled [[spoiler: [[NukeEm [[spoiler:[[NukeEm The Manhattan Project]]]].
*** [[spoiler: He [[spoiler:He began to change sides when humans showed mercy and didn't eradicate him and his family, something neither he nor his overlords who sent them all to die in disgrace expected. He'd heard humans speaking of some weapon they were afraid of themselves, but it was the video that explained what they were afraid of and why, and showed him that the humans could have slaughtered his forces ''at will'' and had just been playing with him.]]



* {{Justified}} in the fight against the [[HeroKiller Slaughterhouse Nine]] in ''{{Literature/Worm}}''. [[spoiler: Their ringleader, Jack Slash, has a secondary thinker power designed to interact with other people's powers, telling him what they're doing and when. When he's fighting capes, he personally cannot lose. Until an unpowered police officer with a containment foam gun enters the fray and blindsides him.]]

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* {{Justified}} in the fight against the [[HeroKiller Slaughterhouse Nine]] in ''{{Literature/Worm}}''. [[spoiler: Their [[spoiler:Their ringleader, Jack Slash, has a secondary thinker power designed to interact with other people's powers, telling him what they're doing and when. When he's fighting capes, he personally cannot lose. Until an unpowered police officer with a containment foam gun enters the fray and blindsides him.]]



* The Website/{{Cracked}} video [[http://www.cracked.com/video_18244_why-harry-potter-universe-secretly-terrifying.html Why The Harry Potter Universe Is Secretly Terrifying]] discuses, among other FridgeLogic aspects of the books, why it was stupid not to inform the muggle governments about the danger Voldemort posed to the world.

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* The Website/{{Cracked}} video [[http://www.cracked.com/video_18244_why-harry-potter-universe-secretly-terrifying.html Why The Harry Potter Universe Is Secretly Terrifying]] discuses, among other FridgeLogic aspects of the books, why it was stupid not to inform the muggle {{Muggle}} governments about the danger Voldemort posed to the world.



* In ''[[WebAnimation/HowItShouldHaveEnded How Harry Potter Should Have Ended]]'', Snape [[spoiler: kills Voldemort with a gun.]] Then, after his utterly muggle-like victory, he uses a magical time-turner to [[spoiler: go back to when Voldemort was a young orphan named Tom Riddle being introduced to the existence of magic by Dumbledore, so that he can kill him way back then and ''none'' of the deaths will ever have happened in the first place.]]

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* In ''[[WebAnimation/HowItShouldHaveEnded How Harry Potter Should Have Ended]]'', Snape [[spoiler: kills [[spoiler:kills Voldemort with a gun.]] Then, after his utterly muggle-like victory, he uses a magical time-turner to [[spoiler: go [[spoiler:go back to when Voldemort was a young orphan named Tom Riddle being introduced to the existence of magic by Dumbledore, so that he can kill him way back then and ''none'' of the deaths will ever have happened in the first place.]]



* Linkara from ''WebVideo/AtopTheFourthWall'', frequently criticizes this trope with bad Batman stories, because the cases where it appears allow this trope by depicting characters WITH powers as outright incompetent to make Batman look better. His also invokes this with his ''Top 15 Things That Are Wrong with ComicBook/IdentityCrisis'' video, where in the fight with Deathstroke, he notes that he's standing still for most of it while taking on the whole Justice League. In his words: "This is the part where you take yourself out of the story and realize that a sniper rifle would be more effective than flashy superpowers, and in story about superheroes, we really shouldn't be thinking that."

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* Linkara from ''WebVideo/AtopTheFourthWall'', frequently criticizes this trope with bad Batman stories, because the cases where it appears allow this trope by depicting characters WITH powers as outright incompetent to make Batman look better. His He also invokes this with his ''Top 15 Things That Are Wrong with ComicBook/IdentityCrisis'' video, where in the fight with Deathstroke, he notes that he's standing still for most of it while taking on the whole Justice League. In his words: "This is the part where you take yourself out of the story and realize that a sniper rifle would be more effective than flashy superpowers, and in story about superheroes, we really shouldn't be thinking that."



** In the first episode, after being awakened from their thousand year sleep, the Manhattan clan faced off and and lost against a group of well-armed human mercenaries. A human holding Hudson at gun point notes that he doesn't know what Hudson is, but he isn't bullet proof, which Hudson agrees with.

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** In the first episode, after being awakened from their thousand year sleep, the Manhattan clan faced off and and lost against a group of well-armed human mercenaries. A human holding Hudson at gun point gunpoint notes that he doesn't know what Hudson is, but he isn't bullet proof, bulletproof, which Hudson agrees with.



** Subverted when [[EldritchAbomination Vaatu]] shows up [[spoiler: and fuses with [[ArcVillain Unalaq]] to become the Dark Avatar. An entire army throwing bending and weapons at him does nothing.]]

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** Subverted when [[EldritchAbomination Vaatu]] shows up [[spoiler: and [[spoiler:and fuses with [[ArcVillain Unalaq]] to become the Dark Avatar. An entire army throwing bending and weapons at him does nothing.]]
29th Oct '17 6:02:17 PM Timber
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* ''VisualNovel/AceAttorney'': Each major playable attorney has a way to detect lies - for instance, Phoenix Wright has a Magatama, an amulet that detects whether people are forcibly hiding something, and Apollo Justice has an inherited trait to be very sensitive to nervous tics, which inevitably happen when someone's lying. Athena Cykes and Miles Edgeworth? The former uses a computer to read emotions from witnesses (and even then Athena has to think something is not going wrong) while the latter only uses [[MundaneMadeAwesome Logic]], yet their methods are no less effective than Phoenix's and Apollo's, that are closer to (and are, in Phoenix's case) supernatural.

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* ''VisualNovel/AceAttorney'': Each major playable attorney has a way to detect lies - for instance, Phoenix Wright has a Magatama, an amulet that detects whether people are forcibly hiding something, and Apollo Justice has an inherited trait to be very sensitive to nervous tics, which inevitably happen when someone's lying. lying, and Athena Cykes is [[TheEmpath extremely sensitive to the emotional tone of people's voices]] and Miles Edgeworth? The former uses a small computer to read emotions from witnesses (and even then Athena has to think something is not going wrong) while help process the latter information. Miles Edgeworth, on the other hand, only uses [[MundaneMadeAwesome Logic]], yet their methods are he's no less effective than Phoenix's Phoenix, Apollo, and Apollo's, that Athena, whose methods are closer to (and are, in Phoenix's case) supernatural.
21st Oct '17 11:46:11 AM DVB
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*** The last time a Wizard found a way around the tech limits, he and a couple of apprentices almost ended up running the entire world. Since he was a necromancer, the end result was the first World War, which was to the magical world something so much worse than both World Wars ''combined'' were to the mundane world that most of a decade of history has been deliberately and thoroughly forgotten/suppressed.

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*** The last time a Wizard found a way around the tech limits, he and a couple of apprentices almost ended up running ''running the entire world. '''entire world'''.'' Since he was a necromancer, the end result was the first World War, ''World War,'' which was to the magical world something so much worse than both World Wars ''combined'' '''combined''' were to the mundane world that most of a decade of history has been deliberately and thoroughly forgotten/suppressed.
21st Oct '17 11:43:48 AM DVB
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*** Indeed, the average Wizarding population seems to be so ignorant of Muggle technology that ''The Daily Prophet'' feels that it is necessary in ''Literature/HarryPotterAndThePrisonerOfAzkaban'' to define for its readers what ''firearms'' are ("a kind of metal wand that Muggles use to kill each other"). Keep in mind that Muggles have been using firearms as common weapons for more than six hundred years.

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*** Indeed, the average Wizarding population (at least of Great Britain) seems to be so ignorant of Muggle technology that ''The Daily Prophet'' feels that it is necessary in ''Literature/HarryPotterAndThePrisonerOfAzkaban'' to define for its readers what ''firearms'' are ("a kind of metal wand that Muggles use to kill each other"). Keep in mind that Muggles have been using firearms as common weapons for more than six hundred years.



*** Bear in mind that the story, at least in the books, apparently does not happen in modern day, but during the 90's when cell phones and the internet weren't as prevalent as they are now. However, the films apparently are moved forward ten years to the present day, but apparently did not take into account the predominant use of either cellular phones or the Internet as means of communication.

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*** Bear in mind that the story, at least in the books, apparently does not happen in modern day, but during the 90's '''1990s''' when cell phones and the internet weren't as prevalent as they are now. However, the films apparently are moved forward ten years to the present day, but apparently did not take into account the predominant use of either cellular phones or the Internet as means of communication.



** One thing that makes it weird is that the wizarding world seems to deliberately use obsolete technologies for aesthetic sometimes. For instance they've had paper and printing presses for centuries, but students are still writing on rolls of parchment with quills. They use candles as a light source, even though magical lights are a very simple spell. There are also random exceptions, like cameras working perfectly fine.

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** One thing that makes it weird is that the wizarding world magical community (of Britain at least) seems to deliberately use obsolete technologies for aesthetic sometimes. For instance they've had paper and printing presses for centuries, but students are still writing on rolls of parchment with quills. They use candles as a light source, even though magical lights are a very simple spell. There are also random exceptions, like cameras working perfectly fine.fine (though it could be an old-fashioned one.)
** One large thing to be considered is that most of the Harry Potter examples also mainly focus on the Wizarding community in the Untied Kingdom. As such, these tropes could be played different to varying degrees in different countries and continents.
** Another is that while elecitricity and magic don't get along, magic can be used to replicate the results of such items, such as seen with wizarding radio and the aforementioned transportation. It's unknown what are magic's limits with replicating Muggle technologies, especially when one takes culture into play (though there seems to be a hint that anything with a microtransistor may be out of reach.)
21st Oct '17 11:32:55 AM DVB
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* Creator/RalphBakshi's ''WesternAnimation/{{Wizards}}'' has this.
** First the bad wizard uses old Nazi propaganda films instead of magic to whip his minions into action.
** Then the ending is all set up for a showdown between the two greatest wizards ever... [[spoiler: when one simply pulls a gun out of his sleeve and shoots the BigBad dead]].

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* Creator/RalphBakshi's ''WesternAnimation/{{Wizards}}'' has plays with this.
** First the bad wizard Blackwolf studies dark magic and combines it with WW2 styled tech exacavated by his minions. He eventually uses old Nazi propaganda films instead of magic (implied to whip be augmented with magic) to get his minions into action.
disoganized army in shape... while using it as psychological warfare.
** Then the ending is all set up for a showdown between Blackwolf and TheProtagoist Avatar, the two greatest wizards ever... wizarding brothers. [[spoiler: when one simply pulls a gun Avatar just shoots his brother, since as he mentioned earlier, he was out of practice with his sleeve and shoots the BigBad dead]].magic]].
20th Oct '17 6:50:35 PM Savini24
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** Regarding weapons, there are extremely long debates, some on this very wiki, about how far this goes. It's generally argued[[note]][[WordOfDante at least by the fans; Rowling is surprisingly silent on the debate]][[/note]] that a Muggle with a shotgun would usually beat a wizard, but since that's a rather vague scenario you get questions like "What happens if the wizard is smart enough to turn invisible or teleport behind his back?" or "Can a wizard cast a shield charm that deflects the entire burst, not just the first bullet?" (Of course, Mr. Dursley's shotgun ''was'' rather worthless against Hagrid, but Hagrid [[UnskilledButStrong wasn't exactly using magic in that encounter]] and Duresly froze up instead of pulling the trigger.)

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** Regarding weapons, there are extremely long debates, some on this very wiki, about how far this goes. It's generally argued[[note]][[WordOfDante at least by the fans; Rowling is surprisingly silent on the debate]][[/note]] that a Muggle with a shotgun would usually beat a wizard, but since that's a rather vague scenario you get questions like "What happens if the wizard is smart enough to turn invisible or teleport behind his back?" or "Can a wizard cast a shield charm that deflects the entire burst, not just the first bullet?" (Of course, Mr. Dursley's shotgun ''was'' rather worthless against Hagrid, but Hagrid [[UnskilledButStrong wasn't exactly using magic in that encounter]] and Duresly Dursley froze up instead of pulling the trigger.)
10th Oct '17 12:38:04 PM Malady
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* Sort-of-done in ''FanFic/MyImmortal''. Instead of telling Ebony to kill Vampire/Harry via magical means, Vloxemort gives her a gun to shoot him. Of course, given [[CloudCuckooLander Tara]] [[TheDitz Gilesbie]] hasn't displayed any real understanding of how the actual series ''works''...

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* Sort-of-done in ''FanFic/MyImmortal''. Instead of telling Ebony to kill Vampire/Harry [=Vampire/Harry=] via magical means, Vloxemort gives her a gun to shoot him. Of course, given [[CloudCuckooLander Tara]] [[TheDitz Gilesbie]] hasn't displayed any real understanding of how the actual series ''works''...



* In ''HarryPotterAndTheNightmaresOfFuturesPast'', this is toyed with from time to time. Harry notes that one of the advantages guns have over wands are that they're quicker to use, though wands are far more versatile. One particular example stands out when Harry finds an (enchanted) firearm in Arthur Weasley's study, which [[ChekhovsGun he quickly divests of his guardian]] on the grounds that [[IJustShotMarvinInTheFace Arthur put the gun to his own head]] and ''squeezed the trigger'' (Thankfully, tragedy was averted at that point). Arthur mentioned this one in particular had a self-cleaning charm and "some sort of conjuration in the handle." Harry sneaks off in the next chapter and tests it in the forest, initially intending to use up all the ammunition and render it harmless. He spends almost a minute shooting the ground before he realizes that he's fired the pistol over ''thirty times'', revealing that the conjuration enchantment effectively gave it [[BottomlessMagazines unlimited ammunition]]. Turns out that combining magic and technology can achieve some very interesting results that neither could accomplish on their own.

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* In ''HarryPotterAndTheNightmaresOfFuturesPast'', ''Fanfic/HarryPotterAndTheNightmaresOfFuturesPast'', this is toyed with from time to time. Harry notes that one of the advantages guns have over wands are that they're quicker to use, though wands are far more versatile. One particular example stands out when Harry finds an (enchanted) firearm in Arthur Weasley's study, which [[ChekhovsGun he quickly divests of his guardian]] on the grounds that [[IJustShotMarvinInTheFace Arthur put the gun to his own head]] and ''squeezed the trigger'' (Thankfully, tragedy was averted at that point). Arthur mentioned this one in particular had a self-cleaning charm and "some sort of conjuration in the handle." Harry sneaks off in the next chapter and tests it in the forest, initially intending to use up all the ammunition and render it harmless. He spends almost a minute shooting the ground before he realizes that he's fired the pistol over ''thirty times'', revealing that the conjuration enchantment effectively gave it [[BottomlessMagazines unlimited ammunition]]. Turns out that combining magic and technology can achieve some very interesting results that neither could accomplish on their own.
8th Oct '17 1:35:32 PM Odacon_Spy
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* Here's a case of NiceJobBreakingItHero that almost got the heroes killed. In one episode of ''WesternAnimation/AladdinTheSeries'', Aladdin and Jasmine went on a secret covert mission to infiltrate [[KnightOfCerebus Mozenrath's]] castle, but did ''not'' ask for Genie's help, or even tell him about it. Genie found out what they were doing, and wondered why they would do something so dangerous on their own. (Mozenrath is ''definitely'' not someone you mess with without some serious backup.) So he followed them anyway, and as it turned out, Aladdin and Jasmine had the right idea. The dark wizard had upgraded his security with Genie in mind, with an anti-magic focus, so the two realized that their best chance of success would be to not use magic - or magical beings - at all. Genie's presence quickly gave them away, and they barely escaped. The one good thing to come out it was, he learned he had to start trusting them more.

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* Here's a case of NiceJobBreakingItHero that almost got the heroes killed. In one episode of ''WesternAnimation/AladdinTheSeries'', Aladdin and Jasmine went on a secret covert mission to infiltrate [[KnightOfCerebus Mozenrath's]] castle, but did ''not'' ask for Genie's help, or even tell him about it. Genie found out what they were doing, and wondered why they would do something so dangerous on their own. (Mozenrath is ''definitely'' not someone you mess with without some serious backup.) So he followed them anyway, and as it turned out, Aladdin and Jasmine had the right idea. The dark wizard had upgraded his security with an anti-magic focus specifically with Genie in mind, with an anti-magic focus, so the two realized that their best chance of success would be to not use magic - or magical beings - at all. Genie's presence quickly gave them away, and they barely escaped. The one good thing to come out it was, he learned he had to start trusting them more.
8th Oct '17 1:33:30 PM Odacon_Spy
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** And yet another has some nerds playing a pen-and-paper RPG. One posits an alternative means to killing a werewolf: [[ChunkySalsaRule using a gatling gun to reduce it to paste, cooking and then ]]''[[ChunkySalsaRule snorting ]]''[[ChunkySalsaRule the paste, then defecating whatever's left and having the sewage treatment system have its turn.]] The game master stubbornly insists that a silver bullet is still necessary.

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** And yet another has some nerds playing a pen-and-paper RPG. One posits an alternative means to killing a werewolf: [[ChunkySalsaRule using a gatling gun to reduce it to paste, cooking and then ]]''[[ChunkySalsaRule snorting ]]''[[ChunkySalsaRule the paste, then defecating whatever's left and having letting the sewage treatment system have its turn.]] The game master stubbornly insists that a silver bullet is still necessary.
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