History Main / MinMaxing

24th Apr '16 11:25:57 AM Temporary14
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*** Each level the player gains grants a number of "skill-up" points. The number of points you gain is dependent on the character's Intelligence stat, so many would-be min-maxers treat it as the OneStatToRuleThemAll and max it out as early as possible so as to maximize skill gains. {{Subverted}}: high Intelligence early on won't make a character much stronger by end-game. Many skills are nearly useless. Every skill, at a minimum, can be raised to 87 without investing a single skill point or taking a feat or tagging a skill. Two can be raised to 100 and Speech can be raised to 97. It is literally impossible to lower Intelligence enough to make it absolutely impossible not to end up with 10's in all SPECIAL and 100's in all skills (the useless ones taken for the sake of completion). Then again, a high Intelligence early on will allow the character to max out their useful skills very early, without gaining a huge number of levels, using DLC, or hunting down hundreds of skill books, so you might say that Intelligence is the ideal stat of BrilliantButLazy characters. Doing a "Rivet City run" to grab the Intelligence bobblehead as soon as possible after leaving the tutorial is still ''de rigeur'' for min-maxers, as there's no down side to doing so other than the bother of avoiding encounters on the way there.

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*** Each level the player gains grants a number of "skill-up" points. The number of points you gain is dependent on the character's Intelligence stat, so many would-be min-maxers treat it as the OneStatToRuleThemAll and max it out as early as possible so as to maximize skill gains. {{Subverted}}: high Intelligence early on won't make a character much stronger by end-game. Many skills are nearly useless. Every skill, at a minimum, can be raised to 87 without investing a single skill point or taking a feat or tagging a skill. Two can be raised to 100 and Speech can be raised to 97. It is literally impossible to lower Intelligence enough to make it absolutely impossible not to end up with prevent the PC from eventually getting 10's in all SPECIAL and 100's in all skills (the useless ones taken for the sake of completion).skills. Then again, a high Intelligence early on will allow the character to max out their useful skills very early, without gaining a huge number of levels, using DLC, or hunting down hundreds of skill books, so you might say that Intelligence is the ideal stat of BrilliantButLazy characters. Doing a "Rivet City run" to grab the Intelligence bobblehead as soon as possible after leaving the tutorial is still ''de rigeur'' for min-maxers, as there's no down side to doing so other than the bother of avoiding encounters on the way there.
24th Apr '16 11:24:24 AM Temporary14
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*** Each level the player gains grants a number of "skill-up" points. The number of points you gain is dependent on the character's Intelligence stat, so many would-be min-maxers treat it as the OneStatToRuleThemAll and max it out as early as possible so as to maximize skill gains. {{Subverted}}: high Intelligence early on won't make a character much stronger by end-game. Many skills are nearly useless. Every skill, at a minimum, can be raised to 87 without investing a single skill point or taking a feat or tagging a skill. Two can be raised to 100 and Speech can be raised to 97. It is literally impossible to lower Intelligence enough to make it absolutely impossible not to end up with 10's in all SPECIAL and 100's in all skills (the useless ones taken for the sake of completion). Then again, a high Intelligence early on will allow the character to max out their useful skills very early, without gaining a huge amount of levels, using DLC, or hunting down a large number of skill books, so you might say that Intelligence is the ideal stat of BrilliantButLazy characters. Doing a "Rivet City run" to grab the Intelligence bobblehead as soon as possible after leaving the tutorial is still ''de rigeur'' for min-maxers, as there's no down side to doing so other than the bother of avoiding encounters on the way there.

to:

*** Each level the player gains grants a number of "skill-up" points. The number of points you gain is dependent on the character's Intelligence stat, so many would-be min-maxers treat it as the OneStatToRuleThemAll and max it out as early as possible so as to maximize skill gains. {{Subverted}}: high Intelligence early on won't make a character much stronger by end-game. Many skills are nearly useless. Every skill, at a minimum, can be raised to 87 without investing a single skill point or taking a feat or tagging a skill. Two can be raised to 100 and Speech can be raised to 97. It is literally impossible to lower Intelligence enough to make it absolutely impossible not to end up with 10's in all SPECIAL and 100's in all skills (the useless ones taken for the sake of completion). Then again, a high Intelligence early on will allow the character to max out their useful skills very early, without gaining a huge amount number of levels, using DLC, or hunting down a large number hundreds of skill books, so you might say that Intelligence is the ideal stat of BrilliantButLazy characters. Doing a "Rivet City run" to grab the Intelligence bobblehead as soon as possible after leaving the tutorial is still ''de rigeur'' for min-maxers, as there's no down side to doing so other than the bother of avoiding encounters on the way there.
7th Apr '16 3:27:03 PM Baconfry
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* ''VideoGame/MapleStory'' does this with certain builds. While normally it is very much still a min maxer's game (A mage for example can not put one point into dex or strength, and no one ever puts points into MP or HP) There are dexless and luckless builds involve using stat increasing items for stat deficiency.

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* ''VideoGame/MapleStory'' does this with certain builds. While normally it is very much still a min maxer's game (A mage for example can not put one point into dex DEX or strength, STR, and no one ever puts points into MP or HP) There HP), there are dexless and luckless builds involve using stat increasing items for stat deficiency.deficiency.
** In the older versions of MapleStory, the INT stat dictated the amount of MP gained for each level or AP point placed into MP. This MP could be transferred to HP by spending real-world money on AP resets. What this meant was that all classes could gain more HP than normal by adding or equipping INT, accumulating extra MP, and transferring it into HP. Though this method, called HP washing, was ridiculously expensive and would make a character much weaker for a while, it was the only way for certain classes to survive high-level boss fights.



** For example, Scizor is a Pokémon with an amazing Attack stat and good defenses, but terrible Special Attack and underwhelming Speed. A competitive trainer would choose a Scyther with an Individual Value of 31 (highest possible) in Attack and an Adamant Nature (+Attack, -Special Attack) to evolve into a Scizor. After choosing the Scizor, the trainer would have the Scizor defeat certain Pokémon over and over to build up the Scizor's HP and Attack Effort Values. When it's time to battle, the trainer would give the Scizor a Choice Band or Life Orb to make it hit even harder, an Assault Vest to increase its Special Defense, or a Scizorite to make it [[SuperMode Mega Evolve]] and increase its stats. All of these items restrict Scizor in some way along with increasing its attack power.
** Sometimes, battlers will try to breed a Pokémon with ''bad'' Individual Values. Usually it's Speed, and the reason for this is Trick Room and Gyro Ball. The former is a field effect where [[ActionInitiative slower Pokémon move first]], and the latter gains strength the slower the user is than what it's used against. If they're going to get the most out of it, they need to be as slow as possible. Speed-lowering natures are also typically used. If there's another stat that needs to be bad, it's Attack; doing so lessens the damage from confusion and Foul Play (which is a strong attack that uses the Attack stat of what it's used on to calculate damage, not the user), and is typically applied to Pokémon like Blissey and Wobbuffet (which have abysmal Attack stats but massive HP).

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** For example, Scizor is a Pokémon with an amazing Attack stat and good defenses, but terrible Special Attack and underwhelming Speed. A competitive trainer would choose a Scyther with an Individual Value of 31 (highest possible) in Attack and an Adamant Nature (+Attack, -Special Attack) to evolve into a Scizor. (Since the majority of Pokemon have a preferred attacking stat, most competitively-recommended natures lower either Attack or Special Attack.) After choosing the Scizor, the trainer would have the Scizor defeat certain Pokémon over and over to build up the Scizor's HP and Attack Effort Values. When it's time to battle, the trainer would could give the Scizor a Choice Band or Life Orb to make it hit even harder, or an Assault Vest to increase its Special Defense, or a Scizorite to make it [[SuperMode Mega Evolve]] and increase its stats. Defense. All of these items restrict Scizor in some way along with increasing its attack power.
power, though not all items work that way: Scizor may also hold Leftovers, or Scizorite to [[SuperMode Mega Evolve]]. Most held items have their benefits weighted against the opportunity cost of losing Leftovers recovery.
** Sometimes, battlers will try to breed a Pokémon with ''bad'' specific Individual Values. Usually it's Speed, and the reason for this is Trick Room and Gyro Ball. The former is a field effect where [[ActionInitiative slower Pokémon move first]], and the latter gains strength the slower the user is than what it's used against. If they're going to get the most out of it, they need to be as slow as possible. Speed-lowering natures are also typically used. Lowered speed can also an advantage when using the moves Payback, Avalanche, Revenge, Metal Burst, U-Turn, Volt Switch, and Baton Pass, along with the ability Analytic. If there's another stat that needs to be bad, lowered, it's Attack; doing so lessens reduces the damage taken from confusion and Foul Play (which is a strong attack that uses the Attack stat of what it's used on to calculate damage, not the user), and is typically applied to Pokémon like Blissey and Wobbuffet (which have abysmal Attack stats but massive HP).
3rd Apr '16 2:43:13 AM TARINunit9
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** Most major characters in ''[=OotS=]'' are baseline or hilariously badly constructed, though. Durkon the cleric is stuck being a healbot (albeit not entirely by choice). Vaarsuvius is a wizard that specializes in what is considered the worst school in the game while banning two of the most powerful. Roy is a fighter who doesn't use Intelligence as his DumpStat, and also has no weapon proficiency in anything other than two-handed swords. Belkar is a halfling (which comes with strength penalties) Ranger who specializes in DualWielding, usually considered an ineffective fighting style due to all the accuracy penalties, and with insufficient wisdom to cast spells or track worth a damn. Oddly the [[TheDitz ditzy]] SpoonyBard Elan is the one with the most optimization, taking a PrestigeClass to base nearly everything he does on a single very high attribute. This was used as a gag since his EvilTwin Nale achieved a less effective version of the same thing by taking levels in Fighter, Sorcerer, and Rogue (all of which rely on different base stats) due to his ComplexityAddiction.

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** Most major characters in ''[=OotS=]'' are baseline or hilariously badly constructed, though. Durkon the cleric is the most average, only losing out on his highest potential because he's stuck being a healbot (albeit not entirely by choice). Vaarsuvius is a wizard that specializes in what is considered the worst school in the game while banning two of the most powerful. Roy is a fighter who doesn't use Intelligence as his DumpStat, and also has no weapon proficiency in anything other than two-handed swords.swords -- powerful when he has his Ancestral Relic, terrible with anything else. Belkar is a halfling (which comes with strength penalties) Ranger who specializes in DualWielding, usually considered an ineffective fighting style due to all the accuracy penalties, and with insufficient wisdom to cast spells or track worth a damn. Oddly the [[TheDitz ditzy]] SpoonyBard Elan is the one with the most optimization, with a good build as a SpoonyBard, before taking a PrestigeClass to base nearly everything he does on a single very high attribute. This was used as a gag since his EvilTwin Nale achieved a less effective version of the same thing by taking levels in Fighter, Sorcerer, and Rogue (all of which rely on different base stats) due to his ComplexityAddiction.



** While it's not immediately apparent, and almost certainly wasn't intentional, Malack is also terribly optimized as a result of [[spoiler:being a vampire lizardfolk. What it means is that he has a constitution bonus that is negated because vampires don't have constitution. He has a bonus to his climb and swim skils; the first is useless because vampires get Spider Climb for free, the second unusable because immersion in water kills vampires. He has an immense strength bonus and prefers to avoid physical combat. He's a primary spellcaster with a level adjustment of eight, and the benefits of vampirism are vastly less than the power gained by another eight levels of cleric. On the other hand, when he goes all out he's an [[RuleOfScary enormous pale snake who can crush you with his coils, drain your life energy, and drink your blood all at once.]]]]

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** While it's not immediately apparent, and almost certainly wasn't intentional, Malack is also terribly optimized as a result of [[spoiler:being a vampire lizardfolk. What it means is that he has a constitution bonus that is negated because vampires don't have constitution. He has a bonus to his climb and swim skils; skills; the first is useless because vampires get Spider Climb for free, the second unusable because immersion in water kills vampires. He has an immense strength bonus and knows spells for life drain upon skin contact, yet prefers to avoid physical combat. He's a primary spellcaster with a level adjustment of eight, and the benefits of vampirism are vastly less than the power gained by another eight levels of cleric. On the other hand, when he goes all out actually decides to ''use'' that strength bonus we mentioned he's an [[RuleOfScary enormous pale snake who can crush you with his coils, drain your life energy, and drink your blood all at once.]]]]
27th Mar '16 3:02:28 PM Siggu
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** There is an {{Invoked}} example in Mega Beedrill, introduced in ''[[VideoGame/PokemonRubyAndSapphire Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire]]''. In its regular form, Beedrill is a JokeCharacter with below-average Attack and Speed, as well as low defenses and Special Attack, and its STAB-boosted Bug and Poison-type attacks are resisted by a lot of pokemon. Mega Beedrill circumvents the base stat increase limit of Mega Evolutions by decreasing its Special Attack, so that it can ''drastically'' increase its Attack and Speed, as well as getting the Adaptability ability, which increases the power of its Bug and Poison-type moves. As a result, the JokeCharacter Beedrill Mega Evolves into one of the biggest {{Glass Cannon}}s in the game.
24th Mar '16 7:40:18 PM Temporary14
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*** Each level the player gains grants a number of "skill-up" points. The number of points you gain is dependent on the character's Intelligence stat, so many would-be min-maxers treat it as OneStatToRuleThemAll and max it out as early as possible so as to maximize skill gains. {{Subverted}}: there is very little incentive to have mass amounts of Intelligence early. Most skills are nearly useless. Every skill, at a minimum, can be raised to 87 without investing a single skill point or taking a feat or tagging a skill. Two can be raised to 100 and Speech can be raised to 97. It is literally impossible to lower Intelligence enough to make it absolutely impossible not to end up with 10's in all SPECIAL and 100's in all skills (most of which are still useless, but it's done for the sake of completion).
*** However, doing a "Rivet City run" to grab the Intelligence bobblehead as soon as possible after leaving the tutorial is still ''de rigeur'' for min-maxers, as there's no down side to doing so other than the bother of avoiding encounters on the way there.

to:

*** Each level the player gains grants a number of "skill-up" points. The number of points you gain is dependent on the character's Intelligence stat, so many would-be min-maxers treat it as the OneStatToRuleThemAll and max it out as early as possible so as to maximize skill gains. {{Subverted}}: there is very little incentive to have mass amounts of high Intelligence early. Most early on won't make a character much stronger by end-game. Many skills are nearly useless. Every skill, at a minimum, can be raised to 87 without investing a single skill point or taking a feat or tagging a skill. Two can be raised to 100 and Speech can be raised to 97. It is literally impossible to lower Intelligence enough to make it absolutely impossible not to end up with 10's in all SPECIAL and 100's in all skills (most of which are still useless, but it's done (the useless ones taken for the sake of completion).
*** However, doing
completion). Then again, a high Intelligence early on will allow the character to max out their useful skills very early, without gaining a huge amount of levels, using DLC, or hunting down a large number of skill books, so you might say that Intelligence is the ideal stat of BrilliantButLazy characters. Doing a "Rivet City run" to grab the Intelligence bobblehead as soon as possible after leaving the tutorial is still ''de rigeur'' for min-maxers, as there's no down side to doing so other than the bother of avoiding encounters on the way there.
26th Jan '16 8:11:25 PM Lanny
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When minmaxing results a character that's ineffective early on but becomes a GameBreaker by late game you have a "carry" character who must be supported by their party to become useful.

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When minmaxing results in a character that's ineffective early on but becomes a GameBreaker by late game you have a "carry" character who must be supported by their party to become useful.
26th Jan '16 8:10:59 PM Lanny
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When minmaxing results a character that's ineffective early on but becomes a GameBreaker by late game you have a "carry" character who must be supported by their party to become useful.
21st Jan '16 11:49:06 AM PDL
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** For example, Scizor is a Pokémon with an amazing Attack stat and good defenses, but terrible Special Attack and underwhelming Speed. A competitive trainer would choose a Scyther with an Individual Value of 31 (highest possible) in Attack and an Adamant Nature (+Attack, -Special Attack) to evolve into a Scizor. After choosing the Scizor, the trainer would have the Scizor defeat certain Pokémon over and over to build up the Scizor's HP and Attack Effort Values. When it's time to battle, the trainer would give the Scizor a Choice Band or Life Orb to make it hit even harder, an Assault Vest to increase its Special Defense, or a Scizorite to make it [[SuperMode Mega Evolve]] and increase its stats.

to:

** For example, Scizor is a Pokémon with an amazing Attack stat and good defenses, but terrible Special Attack and underwhelming Speed. A competitive trainer would choose a Scyther with an Individual Value of 31 (highest possible) in Attack and an Adamant Nature (+Attack, -Special Attack) to evolve into a Scizor. After choosing the Scizor, the trainer would have the Scizor defeat certain Pokémon over and over to build up the Scizor's HP and Attack Effort Values. When it's time to battle, the trainer would give the Scizor a Choice Band or Life Orb to make it hit even harder, an Assault Vest to increase its Special Defense, or a Scizorite to make it [[SuperMode Mega Evolve]] and increase its stats. All of these items restrict Scizor in some way along with increasing its attack power.
21st Jan '16 11:37:17 AM Aeroshire
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* "Danger Mario" mode in ''VideoGame/PaperMario'' is a specialized build based around making Mario have ''as little HP as possible'' in order to pump up both his FP and his ability to equip lots of Badges. Then you throw on lots of badges which boost attack and raise evasion when Mario's HP is low, making Mario the ultimate GlassCannon who can dole out tons of damage each turn AND is nigh untouchable. You'd better keep your Partner up front against the rare enemy that can ignore evasion, though. The "Peril Mario" build takes it a step further, offering even greater destructive power, but only if Mario can stay at ''1 HP''.

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* "Danger Mario" mode in ''VideoGame/PaperMario'' is a specialized build based around making Mario have ''as little HP as possible'' in order to pump up both his FP and his ability to equip lots of Badges. [[ThePinIsMightierThanTheSword Badges.]] Then you throw on lots of badges which boost attack and raise evasion when Mario's HP is low, making Mario the ultimate GlassCannon who can dole out tons of damage each turn AND is nigh untouchable. You'd better keep your Partner up front against the rare enemy that can ignore evasion, though. The "Peril Mario" build takes it a step further, offering even greater destructive power, but only if Mario can stay at ''1 HP''.''[[OneHitPointWonder 1 HP.]]''


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**Taken UpToEleven in [[VideoGame/PaperMarioTheThousandYearDoor the sequel,]] where "Danger Mario" becomes "GameBreaker Mario" After chapter five, the [[MiniGameZone Pianta Parlor]] allows purchasing power rushes with tokens. Power rush gives Mario plus two attack power, as long as he has five or less HP. If the player [[TakeYourTime takes their time,]] they can acquire enough power rush badges to deal ''[[{{Cap}} 99 damage]]'' While having five max HitPoints may sound like a drawback, it doesn't really matter when every enemy is killed before they can retaliate.
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