History Main / IndecisiveDeconstruction

16th Feb '18 7:14:07 PM Steam_Lord
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* ''Film/{{Hancock}}'' can't decide whenever it wants be a {{deconstruction}} or a tragedy. The first half is basically a straight DeconstructiveParody. The second half is a different kind of deconstruction, examining the fact that superpowers don't exist in a vacuum. (You can't have Superman without Krypton, or Wonder Woman without Paradise Island.) Whether it's any good depends on the viewer.

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* ''Film/{{Hancock}}'' can't decide whenever it wants be a {{deconstruction}} or a tragedy. The first half is basically a straight DeconstructiveParody. The second half is a different kind of deconstruction, examining the fact that superpowers don't exist in a vacuum. (You vacuum (you can't have Superman without Krypton, or Wonder Woman without Paradise Island.) Island). Whether it's any good depends on the viewer.



** Levine's critique of Objectivism is intended to apply reductio ad absurdum to its ideas, i.e. showing what could happen if that society was actually erected. So Andrew Ryan created a Libertarian utopia beneath the sea running on free enterprise but essentially Rapture and its ideology ''works'' or is shown to work. Andrew Ryan builds a functional society and it actually does provide what it advertised to its citizes (i.e. a haven for the talented special people to do as they pleased). What made it fail was not the contradictions or flaws in its ideology but the fact that it was deliberately subverted by the evil Frank Fontaine, and about the only ideological critique is that the government didn't anticipate or prepare itself to protect itself from Fontaine. Essentially, Objectivism works in Rapture and would have worked had Fontaine not arrived, which isn't an actual critique or deconstruction of Randian ideas at all.

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** Levine's critique of Objectivism is intended to apply reductio ad absurdum to its ideas, i.e. showing what could happen if that society was actually erected. So Andrew Ryan created a Libertarian utopia beneath the sea running on free enterprise but essentially Rapture and its ideology ''works'' or is shown to work. Andrew Ryan builds a functional society and it actually does provide what it advertised to its citizes (i.e. a haven for the talented special people to do as they pleased). What made it fail was not the contradictions or flaws in its ideology but the fact that it was deliberately subverted by the evil Frank Fontaine, Fontaine (intended to be the sort of man Rapture would foster, but coming off as an outside force), and about the only ideological critique is that the government didn't anticipate or prepare itself to protect itself from Fontaine. Essentially, Objectivism works in Rapture and would have worked had Fontaine not arrived, which isn't an actual critique or deconstruction of Randian ideas at all.



* Of course, once the initial shock of being a scientist as opposed to a Marine wears off, it goes the opposite direction, and the game never tries to justify the protagonist's (who had never seen Day One of action prior to all hell breaking loose) ease of mowing down wave after wave of aliens and Marines beyond that he has a special suit. The [[VideoGame/HalfLife2 second game]] goes even farther away from a deconstruction, presenting the protagonist as TheChosenOne who never expresses any qualms about killing the countless adversaries in his path, even though he had never killed anyone before the Resonance Cascade happened.

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* ** Of course, once the initial shock of being a scientist as opposed to a Marine wears off, it goes the opposite direction, and the game never tries to justify the protagonist's (who had never seen Day One of action prior to all hell breaking loose) ease of mowing down wave after wave of aliens and Marines beyond that he has a special suit. The [[VideoGame/HalfLife2 second game]] goes even farther away from a deconstruction, presenting the protagonist as TheChosenOne who never expresses any qualms about killing the countless adversaries in his path, even though he had never killed anyone before the Resonance Cascade happened.
14th Feb '18 12:09:36 AM TheMountainKing
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* ''ComicBook/TheKillingJoke'' by Creator/AlanMoore was intended to counter InsaneEqualsViolent and SingleIssuePsychology (which was also the deconstructive focus of ''ComicBook/{{Watchmen}}'') and provide a more realistic motivation for the gimmicky villain motifs. By exploring Joker's origins and treating him as a victim of mental illness, the story introduces the possibility of Joker being cured. However any attempt to do would be FailureIsTheOnlyOption since it would counter the role and function that Joker is intended to serve as a fictional character[[note]]A colourful gimmicky supervillain for Batman to beat up now and again[[/note]] and so can't really experience the CharacterDevelopment that comes up with deeper motivations. In the end, Joker's darker, nastier backstory becomes nothing more than a FreudianExcuse for him to do darker, nastier things.

to:

* ''ComicBook/TheKillingJoke'' by Creator/AlanMoore was intended to counter InsaneEqualsViolent and SingleIssuePsychology (which was also the a deconstructive focus of ''ComicBook/{{Watchmen}}'') and provide a more realistic motivation for the gimmicky villain motifs. By exploring Joker's origins and treating him as a victim of mental illness, the story introduces the possibility of Joker being cured. However any attempt to do would be FailureIsTheOnlyOption since it would counter the role and function that Joker is intended to serve as a fictional character[[note]]A colourful gimmicky supervillain for Batman to beat up now and again[[/note]] and so can't really experience the CharacterDevelopment that comes up with deeper motivations. In the end, Joker's darker, nastier backstory becomes nothing more than a FreudianExcuse for him to do darker, nastier things.
14th Feb '18 12:08:59 AM TheMountainKing
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* ''ComicBook/TheKillingJoke'' by Creator/AlanMoore was intended to counter InsaneEqualsViolent and SingleIssuePsychology (which was also the deconstructive focus of ''ComicBook/{{Watchmen}}'') and provide a more realistic motivation for the gimmicky villain motifs. By exploring Joker's origins and treating him as a victim of mental illness, the story introduces the possibility of Joker being cured. However any attempt to do would be FailureIsTheOnlyOption since it would counter the role and function that Joker is intended to serve as a fictional character[[note]]A colourful gimmicky supervillain for Batman to beat up now and again[[/note]] and so can't really experience the CharacterDevelopment that comes up with deeper motivations. In the end, Joker's darker, nastier backstory becomes a FreudianExcuse for him to darker, nastier things.

to:

* ''ComicBook/TheKillingJoke'' by Creator/AlanMoore was intended to counter InsaneEqualsViolent and SingleIssuePsychology (which was also the deconstructive focus of ''ComicBook/{{Watchmen}}'') and provide a more realistic motivation for the gimmicky villain motifs. By exploring Joker's origins and treating him as a victim of mental illness, the story introduces the possibility of Joker being cured. However any attempt to do would be FailureIsTheOnlyOption since it would counter the role and function that Joker is intended to serve as a fictional character[[note]]A colourful gimmicky supervillain for Batman to beat up now and again[[/note]] and so can't really experience the CharacterDevelopment that comes up with deeper motivations. In the end, Joker's darker, nastier backstory becomes nothing more than a FreudianExcuse for him to do darker, nastier things.
14th Feb '18 12:06:35 AM TheMountainKing
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* '''Unintentional Deconstruction''', where the work can be read as a criticism of the tropes it plays straight, even if there is no critical intent on the part of the author (or the author has not expressed any critical intent whatsoever). ''VideoGame/HalfLife1'', as stated below, can be read as a deconstruction of the TropeCodifier ''VideoGame/{{Doom}}'', but the authors have never implied any critical intent. ''Literature/{{Twilight}}'' can also be read as a deconstruction of traditional romances, because Edward is sometimes [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation seen as an abusive, manipulative control freak]], yet Creator/StephenieMeyer has stated she believes Edward is the perfect boyfriend (thus, no critical intent exists). It should be marked that this type of deconstruction can be either [[TropesAreNotBad a product of very attentive and intuitive (sometimes naive) writing]] or [[TropesAreNotGood the product of writing so bad that the author doesn't even understand the context and consequences of their own work]]. The main difference with {{UnbuiltTrope}} is that here, the writers are supposed to be familiar with previous examples of the trope.

to:

* '''Unintentional Deconstruction''', where the work can be read as a criticism of the tropes it plays straight, even if there is no critical intent on the part of the author (or the author has not expressed any critical intent whatsoever). ''VideoGame/HalfLife1'', as stated below, can be read as a deconstruction of the TropeCodifier ''VideoGame/{{Doom}}'', but the authors have never implied any critical intent. ''Literature/{{Twilight}}'' can also be read as a deconstruction of traditional romances, because Edward is sometimes [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation seen as an abusive, manipulative control freak]], yet Creator/StephenieMeyer has stated she believes Edward is the perfect boyfriend (thus, no critical intent exists). It should be marked that this type of deconstruction can be either [[TropesAreNotBad a product of very attentive and intuitive (sometimes naive) writing]] or [[TropesAreNotGood the product of writing so bad that the author doesn't even understand the context and consequences of their own work]]. The main difference with {{UnbuiltTrope}} UnbuiltTrope is that here, the writers are supposed to be familiar with previous examples of the trope.
29th Jan '18 9:58:45 PM MeaJae97
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* More famously, ''WesternAnimation/{{Shrek}}'' does something similar -- it satirizes traditional fairy tale and nursery rhyme characters left and right and turns the traditional fairy tale structure on its head -- the Princess has a ''reason'' to hide in the tower, the perfect fairy tale kingdom comes at the expense of forcing all of the non-humans to live in the woods, the nasty ogre is the reluctant hero. However, there's still room for a happy ending and a dance party at the end.

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* More famously, ''WesternAnimation/{{Shrek}}'' does something similar -- it satirizes traditional fairy tale and nursery rhyme characters left and right and turns the traditional fairy tale structure on its head -- the Princess has a ''reason'' to hide in the tower, the perfect fairy tale kingdom comes at the expense of forcing all of the non-humans to live in the woods, the nasty ogre is the reluctant hero. However, Come the third act, it almost becomes a melodrama mixed with a straight fairy tale story. And there's still room for a [[DancePartyEnding happy ending and a dance party at the end. end.]] The later films would follow this example and gradually dialled down on the parody and satire aspects (or at least intertwined them more consistently with the films stories), since Dreamworks knew they couldn't just rely on in-jokes about Disney forever.
22nd Jan '18 1:08:47 AM anty21
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* '''Unintentional Deconstruction''', where the work can be read as a criticism of the tropes it plays straight, even if there is no critical intent on the part of the author (or the author has not expressed any critical intent whatsoever). ''VideoGame/HalfLife1'', as stated below, can be read as a deconstruction of the TropeCodifier ''VideoGame/{{Doom}}'', but the authors have never implied any critical intent. ''Literature/{{Twilight}}'' can also be read as a deconstruction of traditional romances, because Edward is sometimes [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation seen as an abusive, manipulative control freak]], yet Creator/StephenieMeyer has stated she believes Edward is the perfect boyfriend (thus, no critical intent exists). It should be marked that this type of deconstruction can be either [[TropesAreNotBad a product of very attentive and intuitive (sometimes naive) writing]] or [[TropesAreNotGood the product of writing so bad that the author doesn't even understand the context and consequences of their own work]].

to:

* '''Unintentional Deconstruction''', where the work can be read as a criticism of the tropes it plays straight, even if there is no critical intent on the part of the author (or the author has not expressed any critical intent whatsoever). ''VideoGame/HalfLife1'', as stated below, can be read as a deconstruction of the TropeCodifier ''VideoGame/{{Doom}}'', but the authors have never implied any critical intent. ''Literature/{{Twilight}}'' can also be read as a deconstruction of traditional romances, because Edward is sometimes [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation seen as an abusive, manipulative control freak]], yet Creator/StephenieMeyer has stated she believes Edward is the perfect boyfriend (thus, no critical intent exists). It should be marked that this type of deconstruction can be either [[TropesAreNotBad a product of very attentive and intuitive (sometimes naive) writing]] or [[TropesAreNotGood the product of writing so bad that the author doesn't even understand the context and consequences of their own work]]. The main difference with {{UnbuiltTrope}} is that here, the writers are supposed to be familiar with previous examples of the trope.
15th Jan '18 5:51:06 PM PkChanInParadise
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** Batman is supposed to have become DarkerAndEdgier, and grown more cruel after seeing Superman's attack but his response and reaction aren't presented as especially divergent from his previous behaviour. Likewise it's not clear what exactly it is about Superman's fight with Zod that bothers him. If it's collateral damage and irresponsibility, then Batman's own rampage and casual slaughter of criminals in his chase for the Kryptonite, and his general torture of evil bad guys, doesn't make sen, likewise his sudden shift from wanting to kill Superman to teaming up with him after a HeelRealization comes out of a melodramatic plot device rather than the actual ideological issues he has about the risks of having a Superman in the world ("1% of a chance").

to:

** Batman is supposed to have become DarkerAndEdgier, and grown more cruel after seeing Superman's attack but his response and reaction aren't presented as especially divergent from his previous behaviour. Likewise it's not clear what exactly it is about Superman's fight with Zod that bothers him. If it's collateral damage and irresponsibility, then Batman's own rampage and casual slaughter of criminals in his chase for the Kryptonite, and his general torture of evil bad guys, doesn't make sen, sense, likewise his sudden shift from wanting to kill Superman to teaming up with him after a HeelRealization comes out of a melodramatic plot device rather than the actual ideological issues he has about the risks of having a Superman in the world ("1% of a chance").
6th Jan '18 5:37:13 PM Codefreak5
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* ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolidV'' has this most infamously with Quiet (although similar indecisive deconstructions throughout the series can be argued for [[AbsoluteCleavage Eva]], [[DarkActionGirl The Beauty and the Beast Unit]] and [[ThePolyanna Paz]]). With Quiet, Kojima insisted that people who criticised her skimpy outfit before the game came out would be "ashamed of their words and deeds", as he had a deconstruction lined up for her; in-universe, she [[spoiler: needs to wear fewer clothes because she breathes through her skin]]. A lot of people, however, saw this attempt at a deconstruction as just an excuse for her to be wearing a sexy outfit all the time, seeing as the camera is still tracking her in a way that makes some scenes into obvious fanservice, especially as male characters with the same powers as her (namely, The End from ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolid3SnakeEater'') didn't need to dress this way. [[note]] However, it is unlikely that The End suffered the same damage to his respiratory system as Quiet, meaning that he could still breathe "normally", unlike Quiet who could only use the skin option.[[/note]]

to:

* ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolidV'' has this most infamously with Quiet (although similar indecisive deconstructions throughout the series can be argued for [[AbsoluteCleavage Eva]], [[DarkActionGirl The Beauty and the Beast Unit]] and [[ThePolyanna [[ThePollyanna Paz]]). With Quiet, Kojima insisted that people who criticised her skimpy outfit before the game came out would be "ashamed of their words and deeds", as he had a deconstruction lined up for her; in-universe, she [[spoiler: needs to wear fewer clothes because she breathes through her skin]]. A lot of people, however, saw this attempt at a deconstruction as just an excuse for her to be wearing a sexy outfit all the time, seeing as the camera is still tracking her in a way that makes some scenes into obvious fanservice, especially as male characters with the same powers as her (namely, The End from ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolid3SnakeEater'') didn't need to dress this way. [[note]] However, it is unlikely that The End suffered the same damage to his respiratory system as Quiet, meaning that he could still breathe "normally", unlike Quiet who could only use the skin option.[[/note]]
10th Dec '17 10:32:33 AM Saveelich
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* ''Film/BatmanVSupermanDawnOfJustice'' by Creator/ZackSnyder, and the Franchise/DCExtendedUniverse in general take a highly idiosyncratic approach to its title characters, and set up a conflict that is driven by a bunch of issues and problems that it doesn't fully resolve, or proceed from its starting point:
** The film extrapolates about how Superman would be seen with mistrust in the 21st Century, and that his reckless collateral damage in ''Film/ManOfSteel'' would provoke a social and political response, as well as an existential crisis among society about the presence of a PhysicalGod among them. Yet rather than take this to any proper conclusion or resolution, the movie doesn't deal with this. Superman spends most of the film being entirely passive about these fears rather than undergo CharacterDevelopment in response to it, while in his Clark Kent identity, he spends most of his time chasing down and tracking Batman's police brutality instead. The entire issue of whether Superman is divided between seeing himself as human, and society seeing him as God, gets sidelined with the denouement in his fight with Batman and Doomsday.
** Batman is supposed to have become DarkerAndEdgier, and grown more cruel after seeing Superman's attack but his response and reaction aren't presented as especially divergent from his previous behaviour. Likewise it's not clear what exactly it is about Superman's fight with Zod that bothers him. If it's collateral damage and irresponsibility, then Batman's own rampage and casual slaughter of criminals in his chase for the Kryptonite, and his general torture and mutilation of evil bad guys, doesn't make sense, likewise his sudden shift from wanting to kill Superman to teaming up with him after a HeelRealization comes out of a melodramatic plot device rather than the actual ideological issues he has about the risks of having a Superman in the world ("1% of a chance").

to:

* ''Film/BatmanVSupermanDawnOfJustice'' by Creator/ZackSnyder, and the Franchise/DCExtendedUniverse in general take Creator/ZackSnyder takes a highly idiosyncratic approach to its title characters, and set up a conflict that is driven by a bunch of issues and problems that it doesn't fully resolve, or proceed from its starting point:
** The film extrapolates about how Superman would be seen with mistrust in the 21st Century, and that his reckless the collateral damage in ''Film/ManOfSteel'' would provoke a social and political response, as well as an existential crisis among society about the presence of a PhysicalGod among them. Yet rather than take this to any proper conclusion or resolution, the movie doesn't deal with this. Superman spends most of the film being entirely passive about these fears rather than undergo CharacterDevelopment in response to it, while in his Clark Kent identity, he spends most of his time chasing down and tracking Batman's police brutality instead. The entire issue of whether Superman is divided between seeing himself as human, and society seeing him as God, gets sidelined with the denouement in his fight with Batman and Doomsday.
** Batman is supposed to have become DarkerAndEdgier, and grown more cruel after seeing Superman's attack but his response and reaction aren't presented as especially divergent from his previous behaviour. Likewise it's not clear what exactly it is about Superman's fight with Zod that bothers him. If it's collateral damage and irresponsibility, then Batman's own rampage and casual slaughter of criminals in his chase for the Kryptonite, and his general torture and mutilation of evil bad guys, doesn't make sense, sen, likewise his sudden shift from wanting to kill Superman to teaming up with him after a HeelRealization comes out of a melodramatic plot device rather than the actual ideological issues he has about the risks of having a Superman in the world ("1% of a chance").
5th Dec '17 8:44:04 PM Ferot_Dreadnaught
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** ''VideoGame/RedDeadRedemption'' attempts a {{Deconstruction}} of TheWestern and is set in the TwilightOfTheOldWest in the early twentieth century, and it more or less parodies and makes fun of multiple Western archetypes and tropes from the Western genre, but the main character you play, John Marston, is more or less a Western protagonist in the mould of the classic genre, i.e. an ex-criminal who reforms, wishes to go straight, and is forced by society to go back into crime and is hypocritically punished by the law. John Marston is a classic romantic {{Outlaw}} in an utterly un-Romantic setting, which more or less allows gamers to play and enjoy the fantasy of being a {{Badass}} cowboy without actually feeling culplable or implicated in the historical and socio-economic issues of TheWildWest (i.e. expansionism, gun violence, manifest destiny).

to:

** ''VideoGame/RedDeadRedemption'' attempts a {{Deconstruction}} of TheWestern and is set in the TwilightOfTheOldWest in the early twentieth century, and it more or less parodies and makes fun of multiple Western archetypes and tropes from the Western genre, but the main character you play, John Marston, is more or less a Western protagonist in the mould of the classic genre, i.e. an ex-criminal who reforms, wishes to go straight, and is forced by society to go back into crime and is hypocritically punished by the law. John Marston is a classic romantic {{Outlaw}} in an utterly un-Romantic setting, which more or less allows gamers to play and enjoy the fantasy of being a {{Badass}} badass cowboy without actually feeling culplable or implicated in the historical and socio-economic issues of TheWildWest (i.e. expansionism, gun violence, manifest destiny).
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