History Main / GreyandGrayMorality

20th Jan '17 7:42:53 PM lavendermintrose
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* Anime/{{K}}: Across from [[BigBad the Colorless King]] and a few unambiguously good characters, none of the characters are portrayed to be entirely good nor evil. Specific mention to the conflict between HOMRA and Scepter 4 clan, which falls more into the lines of OrderVersusChaos where both clans have their own set code of morals. The [=HOMRA=] clan functions more like a ruthless street gang and ''will'' go on a violent RoaringRampageOfRevenge if any of their members are killed, but they have a strong sense of [[BandOfBrothers camaraderie]] where members treat each other as a family. Likewise, Scepter 4 functions like an elite police force who have strong ties to many police departments and the Japanese government and is willing to maintain the peace, security, and prosperity of Japan, but they lack the sense of camaraderie that HOMRA has. Also, note that there are some clan members from Scepter 4 and [=HOMRA=] have some form of FriendlyEnemy relationship [[spoiler:and even have to work together to evacuate the Ashinaka High School students so Adolf K. Weissman can safely defeat the Colorless King]].

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\n* Anime/{{K}}: Across from [[BigBad the Colorless King]] and a few unambiguously good characters, none of the characters are portrayed Anime/{{K}} seems to be entirely good nor evil. Specific mention to take it a step further than this in that the conflict between HOMRA and Scepter 4 clan, which falls more into is never framed as a moral issue. Both sides attempt to protect the lines of OrderVersusChaos where both clans city from Strains, they just have [[OrderVersusChaos different ways of going about it]]. Many viewers tend to think of HOMRA as the [[ALighterShadeOfGrey lighter shade]], because their own set code of morals. PowerOfFriendship side was shown in the first season - as well as Misaki's raging anger at Saruhiko's HazyFeelTurn - and Saruhiko's [[ThenLetMeBeEvil less than helpful reaction]]. However, Scepter 4 gets those moments in season 2. The [=HOMRA=] Green clan functions more might look like a ruthless street gang darker shade, and ''will'' go on a violent RoaringRampageOfRevenge if any of their members are killed, but they have a strong sense of [[BandOfBrothers camaraderie]] where members treat each the other as three clans do team up against them, however, they are more of a family. WellIntentionedExtremist type. Likewise, Scepter 4 functions like an elite police force who have strong ties the Silver clan might seem to many police departments be completely good, and the Japanese government and Silver King is willing to maintain framed as the peace, security, and prosperity of Japan, BigGood, but then again, they lack the sense of camaraderie that HOMRA has. Also, note that there are some clan members CouldHaveAvoidedThisPlot if he hadn't run away from Scepter 4 and [=HOMRA=] have some form of FriendlyEnemy relationship [[spoiler:and even have to work together to evacuate the Ashinaka High School students his responsibilities for so Adolf K. Weissman can safely defeat the Colorless King]].long.
20th Jan '17 2:21:53 PM gb00393
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* ''Series/GameOfThrones'': Many characters are morally ambiguous, ranging from light grey to black. Sympathetic characters are often depicted on both sides of conflicts, such as Tyrion and Davos being on opposite sides of the Battle of Blackwater.
18th Jan '17 1:34:37 PM aurora369
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** ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsIIIMorrowind Morrowind]]''. Although the main quest is pretty much black-and-white (though if you really dig into the backstory, the BigBad has some WellIntentionedExtremist and VillainHasAPoint aspects that can move him closer to a "dark gray"), the politics in Vvardenfell are very clearly Gray And Gray. House Hlaalu, for example, is open-minded but corrupted, House Telvanni is honest but elitist, House Redoran is strong but xenophobic, the Empire often ranges from oppressive to a little bit too lax, the Dunmer Temple is kind and charitable but has Knights Templar (the Ordinators) and is to some degree a CorruptChurch, and the three [[PhysicalGod god-kings]] to which it is devoted are respectively benevolent but pathologically dishonest, egotistically psychotic, and dead. House Dagoth are portrayed as evil, but still remain somewhat gray. At most the main quest is closer to BlackAndGrayMorality.

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** ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsIIIMorrowind Morrowind]]''. Although the main quest is pretty much appears to be black-and-white (though if you really dig into the backstory, the BigBad has some WellIntentionedExtremist and VillainHasAPoint aspects that can move him closer to a "dark gray"), gray", and the wannabe BigGood Azura has a ton of skeletons in her closet), the politics in Vvardenfell are very clearly Gray And Gray. House Hlaalu, for example, is open-minded but corrupted, House Telvanni is honest but elitist, House Redoran is strong but xenophobic, the Empire often ranges from oppressive to a little bit too lax, the Dunmer Temple is kind and charitable but has Knights Templar (the Ordinators) and is to some degree a CorruptChurch, and the three [[PhysicalGod god-kings]] to which it is devoted are respectively benevolent but pathologically dishonest, egotistically psychotic, and dead. House Dagoth are portrayed as evil, but still remain somewhat gray. At most the main quest is closer to BlackAndGrayMorality.
17th Jan '17 1:09:48 PM Monsund
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* This is perhaps one of the most driving points of ''VideoGame/FireEmblemFates''. You can fight for Hoshido, or for Nohr (depending on which game you buy), and while Hoshido is arguably more good than Nohr, they aren't perfect and have their darker sides and [[DarkisnotEvil Nohr]] has several goodhearted individuals while also having its share of villains.


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** Hovever this gets reversed in Mists of Pandaria where the entire orcish race is given the VillainBall, while the Alliance commits no bad actions.
14th Jan '17 6:29:48 AM ImpudentInfidel
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* The SuccessionCrisis in ''VideoGame/DragonAgeOrigins''. The Dwarf origin stories give you some pretty clear reasons for supporting each. Commoners would want to support Bhelen because he fights to end the oppressive caste system and wants to open the country more to the outside. Nobles would want to support Harrowmont because it's their father's wishes and he's more "Traditional". You also have a personal reason for doing so, Harrowmont is a ''very'' nice guy and a ReasonableAuthorityFigure, as he fights ''hard'' to make sure the dwarf noble is given a fair trial. Bhelen meanwhile fights hard to get to the throne...to near sociopathic levels, as he's [[spoiler:rightfully]] suspected of killing his older brother and getting his other sibling blamed for it. [[note]]The noble even has a chance to call him out on this, during which he has almost ''no remorse'' for it unless you compliment him and say he was better at playing the game[[/note]] Oh, and to keep things up, Bhelen, if chosen, becomes a [[spoiler:dictator who leads his city into a new era of prosperity]]. Harrowmont meanwhile [[spoiler:dies partly due to the stress of ruling and causes Orzammar to fall into decay while expanding its isolationist practices]].

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* The SuccessionCrisis in ''VideoGame/DragonAgeOrigins''. The Dwarf origin stories give you some pretty clear reasons for supporting each. Commoners would want to support Bhelen because he fights to end the oppressive caste system and wants to open the country more to the outside. Nobles would want to support Harrowmont because it's their father's wishes and he's more "Traditional". You also have a personal reason for doing so, Harrowmont is a ''very'' nice guy and a ReasonableAuthorityFigure, as he fights ''hard'' to make sure the dwarf noble is given a fair trial. Bhelen meanwhile fights hard to get to the throne...to near sociopathic levels, as he's [[spoiler:rightfully]] suspected of killing his older brother and getting his other sibling blamed for it. [[note]]The noble even has a chance to call him out on this, during which he has almost ''no remorse'' for it unless you compliment him and say he was better at playing the game[[/note]] To a Commoner, Harrowmount is a classist asshole to you while Bhelen is not only polite and respectful, he's your sister's loving fiance (and later husband). Oh, and to keep things up, Bhelen, if chosen, becomes a [[spoiler:dictator who leads his city into a new era of prosperity]]. Harrowmont meanwhile [[spoiler:dies partly due to the stress of ruling and causes Orzammar to fall into decay while expanding its isolationist practices]].
9th Jan '17 4:06:49 AM MGD107
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* The first three seasons of ''Series/{{Merlin 2008}}''. The boy wizard himself and Arthur are definitely good guys, but they support a KnightTemplar king who would execute Merlin if he knew the truth, often against {{designated villain}}s with a legitimate grievance, and Merlin often makes some [[WhatTheHellHero questionable choices]] to balance his nature against his support of the king. Why? In Arthur's case, family loyalty; in Merlin's it's just BecauseDestinySaysSo ("destiny" in this case being a dragon with a fairly major grudge against Uther himself). Hence, when [[spoiler: Morgana decides to side with Morguase]], it's very hard to see it as a FaceHeelTurn, and the script doesn't really make much attempt to present it as such. [[BlackAndWhiteMorality Seasonís Four and Five however mostly shift]] away of this ([[BlackAndGreyMorality but not always entirely]]) as following Utherís death Arthur proves to truly be TheGoodKing who brings peace, stability, justice and a lot more social mobility to Camelot. Meanwhile [[spoiler: Morgana]] [[TookAlevelInJerkass takes multiple levels of jerkass]] until she completely abandons any pretence she is not just after personal power and turns into [[TheCaligula an even worse tyrant than Uther was.]]

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* The first three seasons of ''Series/{{Merlin 2008}}''. The boy wizard himself and Arthur are definitely good guys, but they support a KnightTemplar king who would execute Merlin if he knew the truth, often against {{designated villain}}s with a legitimate grievance, and Merlin often makes some [[WhatTheHellHero questionable choices]] to balance his nature against his support of the king. Why? In Arthur's case, family loyalty; in Merlin's it's just BecauseDestinySaysSo ("destiny" in this case being a dragon with a fairly major grudge against Uther himself). Hence, when [[spoiler: Morgana decides to side with Morguase]], it's very hard to see it as a FaceHeelTurn, and the script doesn't really make much attempt to present it as such. [[BlackAndWhiteMorality Seasonís Four and Five however mostly shift]] away of this ([[BlackAndGreyMorality but not always entirely]]) as following Utherís death Arthur proves to truly be TheGoodKing who brings peace, stability, justice and a lot more social mobility to Camelot. Meanwhile [[spoiler: Morgana]] [[TookAlevelInJerkass takes multiple levels of jerkass]] until she completely abandons any pretence she is not just after personal power and turns into [[TheCaligula an even worse tyrant than Uther was.]]entirely]]).
8th Jan '17 5:56:48 PM MGD107
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* In ''Series/{{Merlin 2008}}'', the boy wizard himself and Arthur are definitely good guys, but they support a KnightTemplar king who would execute Merlin if he knew the truth, often against {{designated villain}}s with a legitimate grievance, and Merlin often makes some [[WhatTheHellHero questionable choices]] to balance his nature against his support of the king. Why? In Arthur's case, family loyalty; in Merlin's it's just BecauseDestinySaysSo ("destiny" in this case being a dragon with a fairly major grudge against Uther himself). Hence, when [[spoiler: Morgana decides to side with Morguase]], it's very hard to see it as a FaceHeelTurn, and the script doesn't really make much attempt to present it as such. [[BlackAndWhiteMorality Eventually mostly shifts]] away of of this ([[BlackAndGreyMorality but not always entirely]]) however after Uther dies, with Arthur proving to truly be TheGoodKing who brings peace, stability, justice and a lot more social mobility to Camelot. While [[spoiler: Morgana]] [[TookAlevelInJerkass takes multiple levels of jerkass]] until she completely abandons any pretence she is not just after personal power and turns into [[TheCaligula an even worse tyrant than Uther.]]

to:

* In The first three seasons of ''Series/{{Merlin 2008}}'', the 2008}}''. The boy wizard himself and Arthur are definitely good guys, but they support a KnightTemplar king who would execute Merlin if he knew the truth, often against {{designated villain}}s with a legitimate grievance, and Merlin often makes some [[WhatTheHellHero questionable choices]] to balance his nature against his support of the king. Why? In Arthur's case, family loyalty; in Merlin's it's just BecauseDestinySaysSo ("destiny" in this case being a dragon with a fairly major grudge against Uther himself). Hence, when [[spoiler: Morgana decides to side with Morguase]], it's very hard to see it as a FaceHeelTurn, and the script doesn't really make much attempt to present it as such. [[BlackAndWhiteMorality Eventually Seasonís Four and Five however mostly shifts]] shift]] away of of this ([[BlackAndGreyMorality but not always entirely]]) however after Uther dies, with as following Utherís death Arthur proving proves to truly be TheGoodKing who brings peace, stability, justice and a lot more social mobility to Camelot. While Meanwhile [[spoiler: Morgana]] [[TookAlevelInJerkass takes multiple levels of jerkass]] until she completely abandons any pretence she is not just after personal power and turns into [[TheCaligula an even worse tyrant than Uther.Uther was.]]
8th Jan '17 5:45:44 PM MGD107
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* In ''Series/{{Merlin 2008}}'', the boy wizard himself and Arthur are definitely good guys, but they support a KnightTemplar king who would execute Merlin if he knew the truth, often against {{designated villain}}s with a legitimate grievance, and Merlin often makes some [[WhatTheHellHero questionable choices]] to balance his nature against his support of the king. Why? In Arthur's case, family loyalty; in Merlin's it's just BecauseDestinySaysSo ("destiny" in this case being a dragon with a fairly major grudge against Uther himself). Hence, when [[spoiler: Morgana decides to side with Morguase]], it's very hard to see it as a FaceHeelTurn, and the script doesn't really make much attempt to present it as such. [[BlackAndWhiteMorality Eventually shifts out of of this]] (but not entirely) however after Uther dies, with Arthur proving to truly be TheGoodKing, bringing peace, stability, justice and a lot more social mobility to Camelot. While [[spoiler: Morgana]] [[TookAlevelInJerkass takes multiple levels of jerkass]] until she completely abandons any pretence she is not just after personal power and turns into [[TheCaligula an even worse tyrant than Uther.]]

to:

* In ''Series/{{Merlin 2008}}'', the boy wizard himself and Arthur are definitely good guys, but they support a KnightTemplar king who would execute Merlin if he knew the truth, often against {{designated villain}}s with a legitimate grievance, and Merlin often makes some [[WhatTheHellHero questionable choices]] to balance his nature against his support of the king. Why? In Arthur's case, family loyalty; in Merlin's it's just BecauseDestinySaysSo ("destiny" in this case being a dragon with a fairly major grudge against Uther himself). Hence, when [[spoiler: Morgana decides to side with Morguase]], it's very hard to see it as a FaceHeelTurn, and the script doesn't really make much attempt to present it as such. [[BlackAndWhiteMorality Eventually shifts out mostly shifts]] away of of this]] (but this ([[BlackAndGreyMorality but not entirely) always entirely]]) however after Uther dies, with Arthur proving to truly be TheGoodKing, bringing TheGoodKing who brings peace, stability, justice and a lot more social mobility to Camelot. While [[spoiler: Morgana]] [[TookAlevelInJerkass takes multiple levels of jerkass]] until she completely abandons any pretence she is not just after personal power and turns into [[TheCaligula an even worse tyrant than Uther.]]
8th Jan '17 5:41:59 PM MGD107
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* In ''Series/{{Merlin 2008}}'', the boy wizard himself and Arthur are definitely good guys, but they support a KnightTemplar king who would execute Merlin if he knew the truth, often against {{designated villain}}s with a legitimate grievance, and Merlin often makes some [[WhatTheHellHero questionable choices]] to balance his nature against his support of the king. Why? In Arthur's case, family loyalty; in Merlin's it's just BecauseDestinySaysSo ("destiny" in this case being a dragon with a fairly major grudge against Uther himself). Hence, when [[spoiler: Morgana decides to side with Morguase]], it's very hard to see it as a FaceHeelTurn, and the script doesn't really make much attempt to present it as such.

to:

* In ''Series/{{Merlin 2008}}'', the boy wizard himself and Arthur are definitely good guys, but they support a KnightTemplar king who would execute Merlin if he knew the truth, often against {{designated villain}}s with a legitimate grievance, and Merlin often makes some [[WhatTheHellHero questionable choices]] to balance his nature against his support of the king. Why? In Arthur's case, family loyalty; in Merlin's it's just BecauseDestinySaysSo ("destiny" in this case being a dragon with a fairly major grudge against Uther himself). Hence, when [[spoiler: Morgana decides to side with Morguase]], it's very hard to see it as a FaceHeelTurn, and the script doesn't really make much attempt to present it as such. [[BlackAndWhiteMorality Eventually shifts out of of this]] (but not entirely) however after Uther dies, with Arthur proving to truly be TheGoodKing, bringing peace, stability, justice and a lot more social mobility to Camelot. While [[spoiler: Morgana]] [[TookAlevelInJerkass takes multiple levels of jerkass]] until she completely abandons any pretence she is not just after personal power and turns into [[TheCaligula an even worse tyrant than Uther.]]
30th Dec '16 8:48:06 PM Dawnwing
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** And then there's ''Sunrise''. [[BrokenBase You could argue all you want over]] who was most responsible for the angst-filled mess that is the ending, but the most reasonable explanation (and the one that causes [[MindScrew the least headaches]]) is that ''everyone'' was in the wrong to a certain degree.
** [[spoiler:Hollyleaf also eventually [[FaceHeelTurn goes insane]] and possibly may show up in the fourth series as a [[KnightTemplar self-righteous villain]].]]
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