History Main / FranchiseOriginalSin

22nd May '17 7:26:33 PM ritzoreo
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* ''Franchise/{{Batman}}'' has a similar problem regarding his intelligence. Batman has always been called "the world's greatest detective", but ever since TheEighties, his intelligence and smarts have been inflated to such immense proportions that he regularly outsmarts demigods such as Darkseid who belongs to Superman's rogue gallery for a reason. This has led to accidental memes such as [[ComicBook/AllStarBatmanAndRobinTheBoyWonder "I'm the goddamned Batman"]] to HandWave his solutions to problems way out of his mere human league. But it also makes one wonder, if he can take on Superman Foes with such ease and grace, then why would human villains such as the Penguin or the Joker make Batman sweat?

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* ''Franchise/{{Batman}}'' has a similar problem regarding his intelligence. Batman has always been called "the world's greatest detective", but ever since TheEighties, his intelligence and smarts have been inflated to such immense proportions that he regularly outsmarts has even outwitted demigods such as Darkseid who belongs to in Superman's rogue gallery for a reason. This has led to accidental memes such as [[ComicBook/AllStarBatmanAndRobinTheBoyWonder "I'm the goddamned Batman"]] to HandWave his solutions to problems way out of his mere human league. But it also makes one wonder, if he can take on Superman Foes with such ease and grace, then why would human villains such as the Penguin or the Joker make Batman sweat?
17th May '17 1:49:54 PM lluewhyn
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****The games probably had a larger impact with the abundance of actual magic items. Even low-level games like Pool of Radiance or Champions of Krynn would have all of the characters using weapons and armor of +1 or better by the end of the game, along with Gauntlets of Ogre Strength or Girdles of Giant Strength. Comparatively, the magic item generation for the tabletop game seemed awfully stingy, even with the gamebooks' "high magic" option for treasure distribution. It feels wrong to both PCs and DMs to have a 4th level character who only has a Masterwork weapon and a couple potions to their name compared to the much richer characters of the same level in any of the computer games.
3rd May '17 5:19:34 PM Jacob175
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It's possible to JumpTheShark without having an Original Sin. Take, for example, ''Series/{{Moonlighting}}'', which couldn't keep up the WillTheyOrWontThey any longer, and the point at which [[TheyDo they did]] was [[ShippingBedDeath the moment all dramatic tension deflated from the series]]. There was no Original Sin there, besides the WillTheyOrWontThey, which was part of what made the series work, so it doesn't qualify here.

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It's possible to JumpTheShark engage in JumpingTheShark without having an Original Sin. Take, for example, ''Series/{{Moonlighting}}'', which couldn't keep up the WillTheyOrWontThey any longer, and the point at which [[TheyDo they did]] was [[ShippingBedDeath the moment all dramatic tension deflated from the series]]. There was no Original Sin there, besides the WillTheyOrWontThey, which was part of what made the series work, so it doesn't qualify here.



* ''Manga/FairyTail'', back in the Tower of Heaven arc, had [[LadyOfWar Erza Scarlet]] [[HyperspaceWardrobe requip]] to nothing but a {{sarashi}} and hakama pants, while dual wielding katanas, an outfit that is explicitly stated to not provide her any defense, or really any magic. What was supposed to represent her getting over her fear of pain associated with the Tower of Heaven and [[MadeASlave her own experiences with it]] became a predictable formula for all of her major fights from there on out: be on the receiving end of a NoHoldsBarredBeatdown, have most of her other armors either destroyed or disregarded, only to have her make a token [[ThePowerOfFriendship 'Nakama Speech']] and then requip to this, resulting in a swift victory for her.

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* ''Manga/FairyTail'', back in the Tower of Heaven arc, had [[LadyOfWar Erza Scarlet]] [[HyperspaceWardrobe requip]] to nothing but a {{sarashi}} and hakama pants, while dual wielding katanas, an outfit that is explicitly stated to not provide her any defense, or really any magic. What was supposed to represent her getting over her fear of pain associated with the Tower of Heaven and [[MadeASlave her own experiences with it]] became a predictable formula for all of her major fights from there on out: be on the receiving end of a NoHoldsBarredBeatdown, have most of her other armors either destroyed or disregarded, only to have her make a token [[ThePowerOfFriendship 'Nakama Speech']] and then requip reequip to this, resulting in a swift victory for her.



** The ExecutiveMeddling was there from the beginning, with Creator/{{Sega}} executives basically controlling the comic from day one. However, they did not pile a bunch of arbitrary mandates upon the writers. that if their successors faults.

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** The ExecutiveMeddling was there from the beginning, with Creator/{{Sega}} executives basically controlling the comic from day one. However, they did not pile a bunch of arbitrary mandates upon the writers. that if That is their successors faults.


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* ''ComicBook/KingdomCome''
** It was the first comic to pair Superman and Wonder Woman together, a trend that would crop up a lot in Elseworld comics and eventually becoming the new canon in the ''ComicBook/{{New 52}}''. It worked there because there was lots of time spent explaining their relationship and crafting realistic circumstances for the two to be together. Later adaptations that would see them together tend to ride off the popularity of the pairing without giving it the needed justification beyond "strongest guy and girl hook up".
** Wonder Woman using lethal force. Here, it's a last resort, but one she considers a necessity. Later stories flanderized her into a kill-first mentality.
2nd May '17 11:26:44 AM BatmanKalEl
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* One of the most pervasive flaws of ''WesternAnimation/KingOfTheHill'' was how [[ProtagonistCenteredMorality Hank was always right about everything]], [[TheWarOnStraw and anything that didn't gel with his conservative values was always wrong.]] As [[http://www.macleans.ca/authors/jaime-weinman/a-brief-history-of-king-of-the-hill/ this article explains,]] Creator/MikeJudge had always wanted the show's CentralTheme to be about the brand of [[GoodIsOldFashioned good old-fashioned]] integrity that Hank exemplifies proving superior to any snooty bleeding-heart liberals and whatever [[PoliticalCorrectnessGoneMad modern-age PC hogwash]] they were espousing. Earlier seasons had the counterbalance of co-creator Creator/GregDaniels, who liked to write episodes exploring a character's struggles and shortcomings. Because of this balance, other characters had their time to shine, Hank's uptight, stubborn, out-of-touch nature was often treated as flawed, and as a result, his role as the diligent, no-nonsense, ethical {{Only Sane|Man}} {{Everyman}} was more sincere and broadly portrayed; anyone could view him as a good man, regardless of their place on the geopolitical spectrum. Eventually, Judge and Daniels became less involved with the show, and the balance began to waver -- mass {{Flanderization}} ensued, not just of Hank's uptight conservatism, but eventually his role as the OnlySaneMan as well. The show fell into a [[StrictlyFormula formula]] of Hank [[AuthorFilibuster railing against anything that could be considered nontraditional]], such as {{Boy Band}}s, {{nerd}}y tarot card enthusiasts, {{Open Minded Parent}}s who preferred [[GentleTouchVsFirmHand Gentle Touch over Firm Hand]], Bobby being InTouchWithHisFeminineSide, owning a pet other than a [[HeroesLoveDogs dog]], or even [[CanadaEh Canadians]], all of which portrayed as little more than an asinine SubcultureOfTheWeek. As a result, the show that was meant to elevate the image of [[GoodOlBoy the humble Bible Belt conservative]] that was usually an {{Acceptable Target|s}} elsewhere ended up embodying its worst characteristics -- its bullheadedly insular and self-righteous attitude towards any ideals other than its own.

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* One of the most pervasive flaws of ''WesternAnimation/KingOfTheHill'' was how [[ProtagonistCenteredMorality Hank was always right about everything]], [[TheWarOnStraw and anything that didn't gel with his conservative values was always wrong.]] As [[http://www.macleans.ca/authors/jaime-weinman/a-brief-history-of-king-of-the-hill/ this article explains,]] Creator/MikeJudge had always wanted the show's CentralTheme to be about the brand of [[GoodIsOldFashioned good old-fashioned]] integrity that Hank exemplifies proving superior to any snooty bleeding-heart liberals and whatever [[PoliticalCorrectnessGoneMad modern-age PC hogwash]] they were espousing. Earlier seasons had the counterbalance of co-creator Creator/GregDaniels, Greg Daniels, who liked to write episodes exploring a character's struggles and shortcomings. Because of this balance, other characters had their time to shine, Hank's uptight, stubborn, out-of-touch nature was often treated as flawed, and as a result, his role as the diligent, no-nonsense, ethical {{Only Sane|Man}} {{Everyman}} was more sincere and broadly portrayed; anyone could view him as a good man, regardless of their place on the geopolitical spectrum. Eventually, Judge and Daniels became less involved with the show, and the balance began to waver -- mass {{Flanderization}} ensued, not just of Hank's uptight conservatism, but eventually his role as the OnlySaneMan as well. The show fell into a [[StrictlyFormula formula]] of Hank [[AuthorFilibuster railing against anything that could be considered nontraditional]], such as {{Boy Band}}s, {{nerd}}y tarot card enthusiasts, {{Open Minded Parent}}s who preferred [[GentleTouchVsFirmHand Gentle Touch over Firm Hand]], Bobby being InTouchWithHisFeminineSide, owning a pet other than a [[HeroesLoveDogs dog]], or even [[CanadaEh Canadians]], all of which portrayed as little more than an asinine SubcultureOfTheWeek. As a result, the show that was meant to elevate the image of [[GoodOlBoy the humble Bible Belt conservative]] that was usually an {{Acceptable Target|s}} elsewhere ended up embodying its worst characteristics -- its bullheadedly insular and self-righteous attitude towards any ideals other than its own.
2nd May '17 11:24:53 AM BatmanKalEl
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** The criticism of religious people seen in the series can be spotted as early as Season 2, with ''[[Recap/FamilyGuyS2E2HolyCrap Holy Crap]]'' focusing on Peterís Catholic father Francis who comes and makes things worse for the Griffin family while living in the family's house. However, Francis is balanced out by the Pope who is a ReasonableAuthorityFigure and grows impatient with Francisís nastiness, implying the issues with Peter's father are more linked to zealotry and a general mean attitude rather than completely stemming from Catholicism. This is to contrast with the infamous Season 7 episode ''[[Recap/FamilyGuyS7E11NotAllDogsGoToHeaven Not All Dogs Go To Heaven]]'', which has the FamilyUnfriendlyAesop of it being wrong to practice religion all together.

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** The criticism of religious people seen in the series can be spotted as early as Season 2, with ''[[Recap/FamilyGuyS2E2HolyCrap Holy Crap]]'' focusing on Peterís Peter’s Catholic father Francis who comes and makes things worse for the Griffin family while living in the family's house. However, Francis is balanced out by the Pope who is a ReasonableAuthorityFigure and grows impatient with Francisís nastiness, implying the issues with Peter's father are more linked to zealotry and a general mean attitude rather than completely stemming from Catholicism. This is to contrast with the infamous Season 7 episode ''[[Recap/FamilyGuyS7E11NotAllDogsGoToHeaven Not All Dogs Go To Heaven]]'', which has the FamilyUnfriendlyAesop of it being wrong to practice religion all together.



** Certain complaints about the series -- particularly the different characterization and the heavier focus on humor -- aren't actually all that different from criticisms of the original cartoon from fans of the comics or other more serious DC action shows such as Batman or Justice League. While the original cartoon had dramatic storylines, they were lightened quite a bit from the original comics, where, for instance, [[BigBad Slade]] was downgraded from a more sympathetic AntiVillain, the heroes had less characterization, and comedic {{animesque}} pratfalls and/or expressions were frequent. The main difference was that the Titans still had depth and characterization, they were still able to act like heroes, and several fans to this day are intimidated about Slade (and most fans admit that, if nothing else, Creator/RonPearlman's voice was pretty memorable).

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** Certain complaints about the series -- particularly the different characterization and the heavier focus on humor -- aren't actually all that different from criticisms of the original cartoon from fans of the comics or other more serious DC action shows such as Batman or Justice League. While the original cartoon had dramatic storylines, they were lightened quite a bit from the original comics, where, for instance, [[BigBad Slade]] was downgraded from a more sympathetic AntiVillain, the heroes had less characterization, and comedic {{animesque}} pratfalls and/or expressions were frequent. The main difference was that the Titans still had depth and characterization, they were still able to act like heroes, and several fans to this day are intimidated about Slade (and most fans admit that, if nothing else, Creator/RonPearlman's Creator/RonPerlman's voice was pretty memorable).
28th Apr '17 7:27:48 AM Ramidel
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* In the latter two books of ''Literature/{{Jumper}}'', Cent is a BaseBreakingCharacter, since a lot of readers found her to be obnoxiously perfect, able to trivially take out adversaries in seconds, when her parents ''never'' managed to solidly defeat them, inventing tricks that her parents never imagined, being an [[AuthorAppeal author mouthpiece]] for various issues in identity politics, and everyone else ultimately being a supporting character to her space program in the final book. However, just about all of this is true of Davy and the first book too; about the third thing Davy does with his power is get effortlessly rich, then he stops terrorist plots where nobody can possibly oppose his teleportation ability, and he consistently tests his ability and develops new uses for it. Furthermore, the first book is almost an AuthorTract peddling Alcoholics Anonymous and its sister organization Al-Anon, and Davy is a teetotaler start to finish. The difference, in these readers' eyes, is that Davy is shown to be a flawed and somewhat morally-ambiguous individual even when he ultimately turns into a hero, and the author carefully rations out the times when Davy is able to use his power to simply solve the plot. Cent ''starts'' as a PluckyGirl and consistently forces her way through the world through a combination of powers and sheer stubbornness, and rarely suffers any consequences for doing so.
27th Apr '17 1:56:04 PM Kelothan
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** Certain complaints about the series -- particularly the different characterization and the heavier focus on humor -- aren't actually all that different from criticisms of the original cartoon from fans of the comics or other more serious DC action shows such as Batman or Justice League. While the original cartoon had dramatic storylines, they were lightened quite a bit from the original comics, where, for instance, [[BigBad Slade]] went from a more sympathetic AntiVillain to near-GenericDoomsdayVillain, the heroes had less characterization, and comedic {{animesque}} pratfalls and/or expressions were frequent. The only true difference, aside from Go being a straight comedy, is that the cast rarely acts heroically. YMMV on all of this, since it could be said that as a comedy, ''Go!'' abandoned practically any pretense of character depth that its 2003 predecessor could be accused of lacking in comparison to the original comics, actually making it less egregious in that regard. (And ironically enough, it ended up with a closer if still oversimplified interpretation of Terra.) If two flaws are for certain, its the Titans' sociopathy and the repetitious nature of the writing from ex-writers of WesternAnimation/{{MAD}}.

to:

** Certain complaints about the series -- particularly the different characterization and the heavier focus on humor -- aren't actually all that different from criticisms of the original cartoon from fans of the comics or other more serious DC action shows such as Batman or Justice League. While the original cartoon had dramatic storylines, they were lightened quite a bit from the original comics, where, for instance, [[BigBad Slade]] went was downgraded from a more sympathetic AntiVillain to near-GenericDoomsdayVillain, AntiVillain, the heroes had less characterization, and comedic {{animesque}} pratfalls and/or expressions were frequent. The only true difference, aside from Go being a straight comedy, is main difference was that the cast rarely acts heroically. YMMV on all of this, since it could be said that as a comedy, ''Go!'' abandoned practically any pretense of character Titans still had depth that its 2003 predecessor could be accused of lacking in comparison to the original comics, actually making it less egregious in that regard. (And ironically enough, it ended up with a closer if and characterization, they were still oversimplified interpretation of Terra.) If two flaws able to act like heroes, and several fans to this day are for certain, its the Titans' sociopathy and the repetitious nature of the writing from ex-writers of WesternAnimation/{{MAD}}.intimidated about Slade (and most fans admit that, if nothing else, Creator/RonPearlman's voice was pretty memorable).
25th Apr '17 10:55:26 AM ritzoreo
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* ''Franchise/{{Superman}}'' comics in general have an original sin in that Superman's powers were not only extraordinary but also never really defined. "Faster than a speeding bullet! More powerful than a locomotive! Able to leap tall buildings at a single bound!" still leaves a lot of leeway regarding Superman's speed and strength. Not only that, but before the TheGoldenAgeOfComicBooks was over, extra powers such as super-hearing, flying and x-ray sight were added to Supes' power roster. This led straight into the [[TheSilverAgeOfComicBooks Silver Age]] and its penchant for piling up Superman's over-the-top powers such as super-ventriloquism and super-pottery-making skills, which in turn ended in power downgrades for Superman whenever reboots occurred; however these didn't last because crazy powers were great whenever any writer needed a CopOut to write Superman out of a corner. It all leaves any creator involved with Superman comics with a popular character that is nevertheless very hard to write for.
* ''Franchise/{{Batman}}'' has a similar problem regarding his intelligence. Batman has always been called "the world's greatest detective", but ever since TheEighties, his intelligence and smarts have been inflated to such immense proportions that he regularly outsmarts demigods such as Darkseid who belongs to Superman's rogue gallery for a reason. This has led to accidental memes such as [[ComicBook/AllStarBatmanAndRobinTheBoyWonder "I'm the goddamned Batman"]] to HandWave his solutions to problems way out of his mere human league. But it also makes one wonder, if he can take on Superman Foes with such ease and grace, then why would human villains such as the Penguin or the Joker make Batman sweat?
19th Apr '17 3:53:11 AM Ramidel
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* ''ComicBook/TheDeathOfSuperman'' is the TropeCodifier for the modern overuse of DeathIsCheap in comic books: a story in which ''the'' major superhero of the DC universe dies and is brought back over the course of a major storyline. However, back then, killing Superman was actually ''shocking'' to the audience because it hadn't been done to death yet[[note]]There were previous examples, such as the resurrection of Jean Grey, but they were rare and usually not planned from the start.[[/note]], created immense EmotionalTorque, and the Reign of the Supermen was a brilliant takedown of the NinetiesAntiHero. It's still a classic of comic book storytelling and a point of light in TheDarkAgeOfComicBooks, but it also [[FollowTheLeader set such a trend]] for future CharacterDeath that the comic book afterlife had to have a revolving door installed.
5th Apr '17 1:15:44 PM Noah1
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->''"To me, all the fatal flaws fanboys bitched about in regards to the ''[Franchise/StarWars]'' prequels ó stiff dialogue, wooden performances, a convoluted plot, and mindless spectacle divorced from human emotion ó were there from the very beginning."''

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->''"To me, all the fatal flaws fanboys bitched about in regards to the ''[Franchise/StarWars]'' prequels ó stiff dialogue, wooden performances, a convoluted plot, and mindless spectacle divorced from human emotion ó were there from the very beginning."''



A Franchise Original Sin is a flaw that in earlier, good installments was kept under control to the point of not really being a flaw, but goes out of hand and becomes apparent in later installments.

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A Franchise Original Sin is a flaw FatalFlaw that in earlier, good installments was kept under control to the point of not really being a flaw, but goes out of hand and becomes apparent in later installments.



* ''WesternAnimation/SouthPark'' made its name with a purely episodic format; while an episode might be a sequel to a previous one, by and large each episode was a self-contained story. However (as outlined in [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HtLJI595wM this video]] by WebVideo/{{PIEGUYRULZ}}) starting in season 10 it began experimenting with multi-episode {{story arc}}s, with the two-parters "Cartoon Wars" and "Go God Go". Many seasons after that would each have arcs that lasted for more than one episode, such as season 11's "Imaginationland", season 12's "Pandemic", and season 14's "200" and "201", providing a nice shift from the usual gag-a-day humor that the show was built around. Season 18 marked the tipping point in introducing full continuity between episodes throughout the season, with multiple arcs that flowed into one another. Fan opinion on the arcs was mixed, but overall, season 18 was still well-received.\\\

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* ''WesternAnimation/SouthPark'' made its name with a purely episodic format; while an episode might be a sequel to a previous one, by and large each episode was a self-contained story. However (as outlined in [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HtLJI595wM this video]] by WebVideo/{{PIEGUYRULZ}}) starting in season 10 it began experimenting with multi-episode {{story arc}}s, with the two-parters "Cartoon Wars" and "Go God Go". Many seasons after that would each have arcs that lasted for more than one episode, such as season 11's "Imaginationland", season 12's "Pandemic", and season 14's "200" and "201", providing a nice shift from the usual gag-a-day humor that the show was built around. Season 18 marked the tipping point in introducing full continuity between episodes throughout the season, with multiple arcs that flowed into one another. Fan opinion on the arcs was mixed, but overall, season 18 was still well-received.\\\\\



* One of the most pervasive flaws of ''WesternAnimation/KingOfTheHill'' was how Hank was ''always'' right about everything, [[TheWarOnStraw and anything that didn't gel with his conservative values was always wrong.]] As [[http://www.macleans.ca/authors/jaime-weinman/a-brief-history-of-king-of-the-hill/ this article explains,]] the show's backbone, as defined by Creator/MikeJudge, was always Hank's [[GoodIsOldFashioned good old-fashioned]] integrity proving superior to any snooty bleeding-heart liberals and their {{political correctness|Gone Mad}} of the modern age. Earlier seasons had the counterbalance of co-creator Creator/GregDaniels, who liked to write episodes exploring a character's struggles and shortcomings. Because of this balance, other characters had their time to shine, Hank's uptight, stubborn, out-of-touch nature was often treated as flawed, and as a result, his role as the diligent, no-nonsense, ethical {{Only Sane|Man}} {{Everyman}} was more sincere and broadly portrayed; anyone could view him as a good man, regardless of their place on the geopolitical spectrum. Eventually, Judge and Daniels became less involved with the show, and the balance began to waver -- mass {{Flanderization}} ensued, not just of Hank's uptight conservatism, but eventually his role as the OnlySaneMan as well. The show fell into a [[StrictlyFormula formula]] of Hank [[AuthorFilibuster railing against anything that could be considered nontraditional]], such as {{Boy Band}}s, {{nerd}}y tarot card enthusiasts, {{Open Minded Parent}}s who preferred [[GentleTouchVsFirmHand Gentle Touch over Firm Hand]], Bobby being InTouchWithHisFeminineSide, owning a pet other than a [[HeroesLoveDogs dog]], or even [[CanadaEh Canadians]], all of which portrayed as little more than an asinine SubcultureOfTheWeek. As a result, the show that was meant to elevate the image of [[GoodOlBoy the humble Bible Belt conservative]] that was usually an {{Acceptable Target|s}} elsewhere ended up embodying its worst characteristics -- its bullheadedly insular and self-righteous attitude towards any ideals other than its own.

to:

* One of the most pervasive flaws of ''WesternAnimation/KingOfTheHill'' was how [[ProtagonistCenteredMorality Hank was ''always'' always right about everything, everything]], [[TheWarOnStraw and anything that didn't gel with his conservative values was always wrong.]] As [[http://www.macleans.ca/authors/jaime-weinman/a-brief-history-of-king-of-the-hill/ this article explains,]] Creator/MikeJudge had always wanted the show's backbone, as defined by Creator/MikeJudge, was always Hank's CentralTheme to be about the brand of [[GoodIsOldFashioned good old-fashioned]] integrity that Hank exemplifies proving superior to any snooty bleeding-heart liberals and their {{political correctness|Gone Mad}} of the modern age.whatever [[PoliticalCorrectnessGoneMad modern-age PC hogwash]] they were espousing. Earlier seasons had the counterbalance of co-creator Creator/GregDaniels, who liked to write episodes exploring a character's struggles and shortcomings. Because of this balance, other characters had their time to shine, Hank's uptight, stubborn, out-of-touch nature was often treated as flawed, and as a result, his role as the diligent, no-nonsense, ethical {{Only Sane|Man}} {{Everyman}} was more sincere and broadly portrayed; anyone could view him as a good man, regardless of their place on the geopolitical spectrum. Eventually, Judge and Daniels became less involved with the show, and the balance began to waver -- mass {{Flanderization}} ensued, not just of Hank's uptight conservatism, but eventually his role as the OnlySaneMan as well. The show fell into a [[StrictlyFormula formula]] of Hank [[AuthorFilibuster railing against anything that could be considered nontraditional]], such as {{Boy Band}}s, {{nerd}}y tarot card enthusiasts, {{Open Minded Parent}}s who preferred [[GentleTouchVsFirmHand Gentle Touch over Firm Hand]], Bobby being InTouchWithHisFeminineSide, owning a pet other than a [[HeroesLoveDogs dog]], or even [[CanadaEh Canadians]], all of which portrayed as little more than an asinine SubcultureOfTheWeek. As a result, the show that was meant to elevate the image of [[GoodOlBoy the humble Bible Belt conservative]] that was usually an {{Acceptable Target|s}} elsewhere ended up embodying its worst characteristics -- its bullheadedly insular and self-righteous attitude towards any ideals other than its own.
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