History Main / FranchiseOriginalSin

17th Aug '17 8:39:40 PM Kelothan
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* One of the biggest complaints ''Amime/TenchiInTokyo'' received was how most of the cast had become [[{{Flanderization}} flanderized]]. This was also apparent in the show's much more well received predecessor, ''Anime/TenchiUniverse'', but with ''much'' more restraint.



** ''COIE'' firmly established that AnyoneCanDie by having KilledOffForReal two dozen pre-established characters, the most famous being Franchise/TheFlash and ComicBook/{{Supergirl}} who each had a whole issue devoted to their deaths culminating in a HeroicSacrifice. None of the other deaths were handled that well. For the rest, they DroppedABridgeOnHim. This reached its apex in the final issue (# 12), where 7 characters were quickly dispatched in a 2 page spread, including two popular pre-Crisis Multiverse characters, the Earth-2 ComicBook/{{Robin}} and ComicBook/{{Huntress}}... and these 7 characters ''weren't'' the only pre-established characters to be so easily killed that issue. As the years went by, and more [[PromotedFanboy promoted fanboys]] began RunningTheAsylum, there were more and more deaths like this, invariably newer characters the writers and editors hadn't grown up reading, creating the CListFodder trope and causing the DarknessInducedAudienceApathy readers now have for newer characters.

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** ''COIE'' firmly established that AnyoneCanDie by having KilledOffForReal two dozen pre-established characters, the most famous being Franchise/TheFlash and ComicBook/{{Supergirl}} who each had a whole issue devoted to their deaths culminating in a HeroicSacrifice. None of the other deaths were handled that well. For the rest, they DroppedABridgeOnHim.simply [[DroppedABridgeOnHim dropped on bridge on them]]. This reached its apex in the final issue (# 12), where 7 characters were quickly dispatched in a 2 page spread, including two popular pre-Crisis Multiverse characters, the Earth-2 ComicBook/{{Robin}} and ComicBook/{{Huntress}}... and these 7 characters ''weren't'' the only pre-established characters to be so easily killed that issue. As the years went by, and more [[PromotedFanboy promoted fanboys]] began RunningTheAsylum, there were more and more deaths like this, invariably newer characters the writers and editors hadn't grown up reading, creating the CListFodder trope and causing the DarknessInducedAudienceApathy readers now have for newer characters.



** The ExecutiveMeddling was there from the beginning, with Creator/{{Sega}} executives basically controlling the comic from day one. However, they did not pile a bunch of arbitrary mandates upon the writers. That is their successors faults.

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** The ExecutiveMeddling was there from the beginning, with Creator/{{Sega}} executives basically controlling having a role in what gets produced. However, by the time the comic from day one. However, they did not pile a bunch of arbitrary mandates upon got canceled this had blown up to the writers. That is their successors faults.point that there were ''entire mandates'' on how the comic should be written.
17th Aug '17 12:06:32 AM MBG
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** ''Anime/DragonBallSuper'' has been criticized a fair bit in the fandom for its tendency to introduce inexplicably overpowered characters, give characters inexplicably giant power boosts, or make rather dubious judgments in terms of PowerLevels. This was more or less true of the original, too; it's just that by the time ''Super'' came out, the fandom had managed to FanWank out ways for the the bizarre treatment of power levels to make sense. Compounding the problem further was just how stupidly high the powerscale in ''Super'' had become, making it bizarre that the characters were ''still'' managing to encounter [[UniquenessDecay foes able to battle literal universe-smashing gods.]]

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** ''Anime/DragonBallSuper'' has been criticized a fair bit in the fandom for its tendency to introduce inexplicably overpowered characters, give characters inexplicably giant power boosts, or make rather dubious judgments in terms of PowerLevels. This was more or less true of the original, too; it's just that by the time ''Super'' came out, the fandom had managed to FanWank out ways for the the bizarre treatment of power levels to make sense.sense, and ''Super'' just made it even more obvious that, no, power levels in the franchise really were completely arbitrary nonsense. Compounding the problem further was just how stupidly high the powerscale in ''Super'' had become, making it bizarre that the characters were ''still'' managing to encounter [[UniquenessDecay foes able to battle literal universe-smashing gods.]]
16th Aug '17 8:38:47 PM MBG
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** The criticism of the series' treatment of Yamcha in particular. He was hardly a serious threat when he started out as an antagonist, and he went down to several humiliating defeats throughout the original ''Dragon Ball''. Perhaps what turns off fans from him in ''Z'' isn't the fact that he loses, but that he loses in particularly brutal ways that come across as mean-spirited in comparison to the more light-hearted original series.

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** The criticism of the series' treatment of Yamcha in particular. He was hardly a serious threat when he started out as an antagonist, and he went down to several humiliating defeats throughout the original ''Dragon Ball''. Perhaps what turns off fans from him in ''Z'' isn't the fact that he loses, but that he loses in particularly brutal ways that come across as mean-spirited in comparison to the more light-hearted original series. Where in the original, he might get his ass kicked in a comical way, in ''Z'', he was horribly killed twice and maimed a third time.


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** ''Anime/DragonBallSuper'' has been criticized a fair bit in the fandom for its tendency to introduce inexplicably overpowered characters, give characters inexplicably giant power boosts, or make rather dubious judgments in terms of PowerLevels. This was more or less true of the original, too; it's just that by the time ''Super'' came out, the fandom had managed to FanWank out ways for the the bizarre treatment of power levels to make sense. Compounding the problem further was just how stupidly high the powerscale in ''Super'' had become, making it bizarre that the characters were ''still'' managing to encounter [[UniquenessDecay foes able to battle literal universe-smashing gods.]]
16th Aug '17 8:23:49 PM MBG
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* Most of the criticisms of the second half of ''Anime/YuGiOh5Ds'', widely acknowledged as a major step down from the first half (promising plot arcs being [[TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodPlot resolved inadequately]], {{Creator/Konami}} [[ExecutiveMeddling butting in where they don't belong]], out-of-place goofiness, focusing on Team Satisfaction characters and Yusei in particular [[SpotlightStealingSquad to the exclusion of everyone else]]) could be found in the earlier Dark Signer arc and even the Fortune Cup arc, widely acknowledged as two of the pinnacles of the franchise. The debate is ongoing as to how the drop happened, but the easiest answer would probably be that the earlier arcs had strong serialized plots that kept the audience interested through their flaws, while the second half... [[{{Filler}} didn't]]. Also, criticisms of the [[AnimeHair wacky hairsyles]] don't tell you that it was there from the beginning, just toned done in saturation.

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* Most of the criticisms of the second half of ''Anime/YuGiOh5Ds'', widely acknowledged as a major step down from the first half (promising plot arcs being [[TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodPlot resolved inadequately]], {{Creator/Konami}} [[ExecutiveMeddling butting in where they don't belong]], out-of-place goofiness, focusing on Team Satisfaction characters and Yusei in particular [[SpotlightStealingSquad to the exclusion of everyone else]]) could be found in the earlier Dark Signer arc and even the Fortune Cup arc, widely acknowledged as two of the pinnacles of the franchise. The debate is ongoing as to how the drop happened, but the easiest answer would probably be that the earlier arcs had strong serialized plots that kept the audience interested through their flaws, while the second half... [[{{Filler}} didn't]]. Also, criticisms didn't]].
** A common point of mockery, particularly against later installments, is the insane amount of AnimeHair and ImpossiblyCoolClothes. This has been a part
of the [[AnimeHair wacky hairsyles]] don't tell you that it was there franchise from the beginning, just toned done beginning; Yugi's tricolor spiky mess of a 'do is practically an iconic example, and Kaiba's exaggerated BadassLongcoat is similarly notorious. It sorta worked back then, though, because Yugi was the only major character to have much in saturation.the way of AnimeHair, and even that was largely the result of ArtEvolution, and the character designs, though over-the-top, at least looked nice. By the time of ''Anime/YuGiOhZEXAL'', though, literally ''every'' character has at least two hair colors and a ridiculous outfit, and the whole thing moved so far into ostentatious character design that it turned out looking downright ugly.
13th Aug '17 10:26:49 PM Kelothan
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* The biggest complaint about the majority of modern ''WesternAnimation/BeastWars'' material is the attempts to connect it to ''WesternAnimation/TransformersGeneration1,'' with the preferred option being to treat the G1 era with a [[ShroudedInMyth mythic, mysterious reverence]]. Despite this, attempts to make more direct connections went all the way back to the original cartoon's most well-liked episodes, including "The Agenda" - generally considered one of the best episodes of its entire run, where Ravage showed up alive and well and the entire plot is about definitively confirming that the conflict of ''Beast Wars'' is an extension of the original cartoon's conflict. And even then, the idea of the original events being mythologized was a bit odd to begin with, as the given time was [[SciFiWritersHave/NoSenseOfTime only 300 years later for a race known to live for millions.]] However, the ShockingSwerve, the added significance to the show's events, a pivotal scene of the characters walking amazed among the giant, ancient, sleeping bodies of their ancestors, and [[OneSceneWonder Ravage as a secret agent with a Russian accent]] were cool enough to forgive the oddities. However, Ravage also poked a hole in the whole idea that the G1 cast was gone and couldn't exist in the Beast Era. This opened the floodgates for every other comic writer to reveal that, among other characters, Grimlock, Razorclaw, Rodimus, Cyclonus, Skywarp, Divebomb, Arcee, Laserbeak, Buzzsaw, Ironhide, Silverbolt, and Prowl ([[ContinuitySnarl twice!]]) all made it over, and pretty much [[NamesTheSame every other Beast Era character to share a name with a G1 character]] somehow [[OneSteveLimit was that character]] even if it seemed like otherwise. From that point onward, the last generation proceeded to [[SpotlightStealingSquad take over any given Beast Era story]], pulling focus away from the well-liked ''Beast Wars'' cast and turning the original scene from gazing at their millennia-old ancestors to [[FridgeLogic looking at people who were still alive and well and who most of the cast already knew]]. From that point on, it was only a very small step to doing a story where the ''Beast Wars'' cast fought in the mythical Great War... [[http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Dawn_of_the_Predacus which was exactly what eventually happened]].

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* The biggest complaint about the majority of modern ''WesternAnimation/BeastWars'' material is the attempts to connect it to ''WesternAnimation/TransformersGeneration1,'' with the preferred option being to treat the G1 era with a [[ShroudedInMyth mythic, mysterious reverence]]. Despite this, attempts to make more direct connections went all the way back to the original cartoon's most well-liked episodes, including "The Agenda" - generally considered one of the best episodes of its entire run, where Ravage showed up alive and well and the entire plot is about definitively confirming that the conflict of ''Beast Wars'' is an extension of the original cartoon's conflict. And even then, the idea of the original events being mythologized was a bit odd to begin with, as the given time was [[SciFiWritersHave/NoSenseOfTime only 300 years later for a race known to live for millions.]] However, the ShockingSwerve, the added significance to the show's events, a pivotal scene of the characters walking amazed among the giant, ancient, sleeping bodies of their ancestors, and [[OneSceneWonder Ravage as a secret agent with a Russian accent]] were cool enough to forgive the oddities. However, Ravage also poked a hole in the whole idea that the G1 cast was gone and couldn't exist in the Beast Era. This opened the floodgates for every other comic writer to reveal that, among other characters, Grimlock, Razorclaw, Rodimus, Cyclonus, Skywarp, Divebomb, Arcee, Laserbeak, Buzzsaw, Ironhide, Silverbolt, and Prowl ([[ContinuitySnarl twice!]]) (''[[ContinuitySnarl twice]]'') all made it over, and pretty much [[NamesTheSame every other Beast Era character to share a name with a G1 character]] somehow [[OneSteveLimit was that character]] even if it seemed like otherwise. From that point onward, the last generation proceeded to [[SpotlightStealingSquad take over any given Beast Era story]], pulling focus away from the well-liked ''Beast Wars'' cast and turning the original scene from gazing at their millennia-old ancestors to [[FridgeLogic looking at people who were still alive and well and who most of the cast already knew]]. From that point on, it was only a very small step to doing a story where the ''Beast Wars'' cast fought in the mythical Great War... [[http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Dawn_of_the_Predacus which was exactly what eventually happened]].
9th Aug '17 11:36:01 AM TheRedRedKroovy
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* PostGrunge is TheScrappy of music genres for Generation X listeners, who by and large view it as a betrayal of everything that {{grunge}} stood for, taking a genre that was born as a backlash against corporate rock and turning it into a symbol of such. Yet the warning signs were there as early as Music/{{Nirvana}}'s ''Music/{{Nevermind}}'', the [[GenreTurningPoint landmark album]] that catapulted grunge into the spotlight, which came to be known as much for its {{epic riff}}s and (by grunge standards) fairly polished and commercial sound as it was for its DarkerAndEdgier lyrics and subject matter. Music/KurtCobain himself came to develop [[CreatorBacklash very conflicted feelings]] towards ''Nevermind'', particularly the single "Smells Like Teen Spirit", largely for this reason, and Nirvana's follow-up album ''Music/InUtero'' (which, notably, [[BrokenBase a large contingent of fans]] sees as Nirvana's ''true'' masterpiece) quite deliberately had a more abrasive, less mainstream sound in an attempt to turn off what Cobain saw as the band's MisaimedFandom. Even as early as 1997, before PostGrunge had fully emerged as the dominant brand of American rock, music critic Chuck Eddy had [[https://books.google.com/books?id=aDnuT65VRzYC&pg=PA239&lpg=PA239&dq=here+comes+the+part+of+the+song+where+we+have+a+tantrum&source=bl&ots=I5xLAeQFrz&sig=VwNDAAqp_KxgqAaN91EwXynTFyA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiG3dWqgZbKAhUOyWMKHb7cDA4Q6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=here%20comes%20the%20part%20of%20the%20song%20where%20we%20have%20a%20tantrum&f=false noted]] that Nirvana pioneered its most overdone tropes.

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* PostGrunge is TheScrappy of music genres for Generation X listeners, fans of AlternativeRock, who by and large view it as a betrayal of everything that {{grunge}} stood for, taking a genre that was born as a backlash against corporate rock and turning it into a symbol of such. Yet the warning signs were there as early as Music/{{Nirvana}}'s ''Music/{{Nevermind}}'', the [[GenreTurningPoint landmark album]] that catapulted grunge into the spotlight, which came to be known as much for its {{epic riff}}s and (by grunge standards) fairly polished and commercial sound as it was for its DarkerAndEdgier lyrics and subject matter. Music/KurtCobain himself came to develop [[CreatorBacklash very conflicted feelings]] towards ''Nevermind'', particularly the lead single (and the band's SignatureSong) "Smells Like Teen Spirit", largely for this reason, and Nirvana's follow-up album ''Music/InUtero'' (which, notably, [[BrokenBase a large contingent of fans]] sees as Nirvana's ''true'' masterpiece) quite deliberately had a more abrasive, less mainstream sound in an attempt to turn off what Cobain saw as the band's MisaimedFandom. Even as early as 1997, before PostGrunge had fully emerged as the dominant brand of American rock, music critic Chuck Eddy had [[https://books.google.com/books?id=aDnuT65VRzYC&pg=PA239&lpg=PA239&dq=here+comes+the+part+of+the+song+where+we+have+a+tantrum&source=bl&ots=I5xLAeQFrz&sig=VwNDAAqp_KxgqAaN91EwXynTFyA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiG3dWqgZbKAhUOyWMKHb7cDA4Q6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=here%20comes%20the%20part%20of%20the%20song%20where%20we%20have%20a%20tantrum&f=false noted]] that Nirvana pioneered its most overdone tropes.
9th Aug '17 11:30:32 AM TheRedRedKroovy
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* Sean O'Neal and Clayton Purdom of ''The Website/AVClub'', when [[http://www.avclub.com/article/did-1997-contain-worst-two-weeks-music-history-258568 making the case]] that the weeks from June 23 to July 8, 1997 were "the worst two weeks for music ever recorded", rest heavily on the idea that it marked the mainstream breakthrough of every awful trend that plagued pop music in the late '90s. They regard GlamRap, NuMetal, SkaPunk, and swing revival as having all had their mainstream breakthroughs in this short period of time, while the AlternativeRock that dominated the early part of the decade was on its last legs, having run out of steam creatively and starting to give way to the return of manufactured {{boy band}}s and {{idol singer}}s.

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* Sean O'Neal and Clayton Purdom of ''The Website/AVClub'', when Website/AVClub'' have [[http://www.avclub.com/article/did-1997-contain-worst-two-weeks-music-history-258568 making the case]] argued]] that the weeks from June 23 to July 8, 1997 were "the worst two weeks for music ever recorded", rest recorded". Their argument rests heavily on the idea that, in that it marked the mainstream breakthrough of short moment, every awful much-maligned trend that plagued showed up in pop music in the late '90s. They regard GlamRap, NuMetal, SkaPunk, and '90s, from the [[GlamRap "jiggy era" of rap]] to NuMetal to SkaPunk to swing revival as having all revival, had their its mainstream breakthroughs in this short period of time, breakthrough, while the AlternativeRock that dominated the early part first half of the decade was on its last legs, having run out of steam creatively and starting to give way to the return of manufactured {{boy band}}s and {{idol singer}}s.
9th Aug '17 8:54:40 AM TheRedRedKroovy
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* Music/DavidBowie's ''Let's Dance'' album was positively received at first. The idea of such a weird artist as Bowie making an album of masterful commercial pop was just crazy enough to be interesting, and fans eagerly awaited which [[NewSoundAlbum new sound]] he'd go for next. The disappointment when Bowie went on to release ''two'' increasingly poor 80s commercial pop albums was enough to turn fan opinion against ''Let's Dance'' as the point where Bowie's DorkAge starts, even though the actual content of the album is pretty much fine on its own.

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* Music/DavidBowie's ''Let's Dance'' album was positively received at first. The idea of such a weird artist as Bowie making an album of masterful commercial pop was just crazy enough to be interesting, and fans eagerly awaited which [[NewSoundAlbum new sound]] he'd go for next. The disappointment when Bowie went on to release ''two'' increasingly poor 80s commercial pop albums was enough to turn fan opinion against ''Let's Dance'' as the point where Bowie's DorkAge starts, even though the actual content of the album is still thought of as pretty much fine on its own.own.
* Sean O'Neal and Clayton Purdom of ''The Website/AVClub'', when [[http://www.avclub.com/article/did-1997-contain-worst-two-weeks-music-history-258568 making the case]] that the weeks from June 23 to July 8, 1997 were "the worst two weeks for music ever recorded", rest heavily on the idea that it marked the mainstream breakthrough of every awful trend that plagued pop music in the late '90s. They regard GlamRap, NuMetal, SkaPunk, and swing revival as having all had their mainstream breakthroughs in this short period of time, while the AlternativeRock that dominated the early part of the decade was on its last legs, having run out of steam creatively and starting to give way to the return of manufactured {{boy band}}s and {{idol singer}}s.
25th Jul '17 7:05:25 PM MyFinalEdits
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* ''Franchise/LyricalNanoha'''s particular claim to fame has always been its superimposition of sci-fi mecha tropes over a {{Moe}} MagicalGirl series, and for the most part this has been a good thing, allowing it to stand out from the crowd and earning it much of its fanbase. The problem, however, is that over time the franchise has shifted more and more into being a {{Magitek}} sci-fi epic, and the magical girl tropes were increasingly downplayed. This led to ''Manga/MagicalRecordLyricalNanohaForce'', where the "Magical Girl" was dropped from the series title entirely, along with nearly ''all'' the magical girl tropes, in hopes of telling a sci-fi war story. In doing this, however, it lost sight of the particular formula that had made the franchise such a hit to begin with, and combined with some [[TheScrappy poorly-received characters]], the series has been [[ContestedSequel roundly criticized]] by old-school fans.

to:

* ''Franchise/LyricalNanoha'''s particular claim to fame has always been its superimposition of sci-fi mecha tropes over a {{Moe}} MagicalGirl series, and for the most part this has been a good thing, allowing it to stand out from the crowd and earning it much of its fanbase. The problem, however, is that over time the franchise has shifted more and more into being a {{Magitek}} sci-fi epic, and the magical girl tropes were increasingly downplayed. This led to ''Manga/MagicalRecordLyricalNanohaForce'', where the "Magical Girl" was dropped from the series title entirely, along with nearly ''all'' the magical girl tropes, in hopes of telling a sci-fi war story. In doing this, however, it lost sight of the particular formula that had made the franchise such a hit to begin with, and combined with some [[TheScrappy poorly-received characters]], the series has been [[ContestedSequel [[{{Sequelitis}} roundly criticized]] by old-school fans.
25th Jul '17 4:34:16 PM N8han11
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.FranchiseOriginalSin