History Main / FaustianRebellion

26th May '16 3:45:56 PM margdean56
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This [[FridgeLogic makes you wonder why]] the villain would be [[VillainBall stupid enough]] to give this guy enough power to beat him- sometimes more power than the villain himself has, or unusual powers that he doesn't have, which are effective against their own creator, and why they do all this with no contingency plan should the hero choose to rebel. [[FridgeLogic If you think about it]], though, it's actually not as crazy as it might seem. There are any number of reasons that the hero might be able to successfully rebel:

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This [[FridgeLogic makes you wonder why]] the villain would be [[VillainBall stupid enough]] to give this guy enough power to beat him- sometimes him--sometimes more power than the villain himself has, or unusual powers that he doesn't have, which are effective against their own creator, and why they do all this with no contingency plan should the hero choose to rebel. [[FridgeLogic If you think about it]], though, it's actually not as crazy as it might seem. There are any number of reasons that the hero might be able to successfully rebel:



** is StupidEvil- your typical demon is traditionally depicted as a being incapable of even EvilVirtues. Things like self-restraint, good judgement, and attention to nuance are simply beyond them- they're doing it ForTheEvulz, and [[DidntThinkThisThrough don't really think too far ahead]]. In older folktales the Devil was often a very gullible character, falling for various minor forms (often involving wealth) of Faustian Rebellion again and again, and this is one of the central tenants of any story involving outwitting a JerkassGenie.
** is just [[CosmicPlaything toying with the hero]]- In some modern works, even the Devil himself may be portrayed as FauxAffablyEvil, or even AffablyEvil. Like a parent with a three year old who decides to run away across the street, they're just letting the little tyke tucker himself out before reining him in. Should the hero win some major victory that actually damages one of the {{Big Bad}}'s ''important'' plans, expect VillainousBreakdown, usually to the hero's detriment.
** is a ChallengeSeeker or a NobleDemon- Its only fair to give the hero a sporting chance to "win". If they find a way to break free, they keep the goods. Sometimes overlaps with the next one.
** is [[WhoWantsToLiveForever Bored]]- the whole thing is a game to pass the time for a SentientCosmicForce. Usually you get the simple pleasure of simultaneously breaking a former hero and gaining a new superminion, but sometimes you get the really fun ones who unleash a DestructiveSavior on the world and you get to spend decades or centuries playing TheChessmaster and finally getting to try out all those [[MonsterOfTheWeek cool monsters you've been building in the garage]].
** ''wants'' them to rebel- rarely, the hero makes their deal with a {{Starscream}}, GoodAllAlong minion, or DefectorFromDecadence who cannot rebel themselves, but use the hero to oppose their boss without breaking their own contract, possibly in an open ConspiracyRedemption. Rarely this one can overlap with the previous one in a convoluted XanatosGambit.

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** is StupidEvil- your StupidEvil--your typical demon is traditionally depicted as a being incapable of even EvilVirtues. Things like self-restraint, good judgement, and attention to nuance are simply beyond them- they're doing it ForTheEvulz, and [[DidntThinkThisThrough don't really think too far ahead]]. In older folktales the Devil was often a very gullible character, falling for various minor forms (often involving wealth) of Faustian Rebellion again and again, and this is one of the central tenants tenets of any story involving outwitting a JerkassGenie.
** is just [[CosmicPlaything toying with the hero]]- In hero]]--In some modern works, even the Devil himself may be portrayed as FauxAffablyEvil, or even AffablyEvil. Like a parent with a three year old who decides to run away across the street, they're just letting the little tyke tucker himself out before reining him in. Should the hero win some major victory that actually damages one of the {{Big Bad}}'s ''important'' plans, expect VillainousBreakdown, usually to the hero's detriment.
** is a ChallengeSeeker or a NobleDemon- Its NobleDemon--It's only fair to give the hero a sporting chance to "win". If they find a way to break free, they keep the goods. Sometimes overlaps with the next one.
** is [[WhoWantsToLiveForever Bored]]- the Bored]]--the whole thing is a game to pass the time for a SentientCosmicForce. Usually you get the simple pleasure of simultaneously breaking a former hero and gaining a new superminion, but sometimes you get the really fun ones who unleash a DestructiveSavior on the world and you get to spend decades or centuries playing TheChessmaster and finally getting to try out all those [[MonsterOfTheWeek cool monsters you've been building in the garage]].
** ''wants'' them to rebel- rarely, rebel--rarely, the hero makes their deal with a {{Starscream}}, GoodAllAlong minion, or DefectorFromDecadence who cannot rebel themselves, but use the hero to oppose their boss without breaking their own contract, possibly in an open ConspiracyRedemption. Rarely this one can overlap with the previous one in a convoluted XanatosGambit.



** is a GuileHero - Most evil benefactors are typically portrayed as LawfulEvil- hence the common theme of a DealWithTheDevil requiring a literal contract. If EvilCannotComprehendGood, LawfulEvil cannot even remotely conceive of ChaoticGood. They can understand ''that'' a LawfulGood paladin will turn down the offer of a cushy gig as TheDragon, if not necessarily ''why''. They may anticipate or even expect their new toy to be a {{Starscream}} or ChaoticNeutral- the contingency plan for rebellion is to [[SignedUpForTheDental offer more perks and a better parking space]].
** is a master of LoopholeAbuse- they manage to find a way to weasel their way out of the deal without [[ExactWords actually breaking the contract]]
** has HeroicWillpower- they were being mind controlled. Emphasis on the ''were''.
** didn't get out of the contract without a price- Rarely, a villain will actually think to build in some sort of failsafe, such as some form of upkeep to retain RequiredSecondaryPowers preventing PowerIncontinence, PowerDegeneration, or the less pleasant aspects of having a LovecraftianSuperpower. This can be one of the more interesting forms of the trope, as the character will either have to live as a ReluctantMonster, or find some way of performing this upkeep on their own in a way they can live with. This can be difficult for a heroic character if this requires, for example, the [[PoweredByAForsakenChild sacrifice of a human soul]] or [[HorrorHunger drinking blood]] from time to time.

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** is a GuileHero - -- Most evil benefactors are typically portrayed as LawfulEvil- hence the common theme of a DealWithTheDevil requiring a literal contract. If EvilCannotComprehendGood, LawfulEvil cannot even remotely conceive of ChaoticGood. They can understand ''that'' a LawfulGood paladin will turn down the offer of a cushy gig as TheDragon, if not necessarily ''why''. They may anticipate or even expect their new toy to be a {{Starscream}} or ChaoticNeutral- the contingency plan for rebellion is to [[SignedUpForTheDental offer more perks and a better parking space]].
** is a master of LoopholeAbuse- they LoopholeAbuse--they manage to find a way to weasel their way out of the deal without [[ExactWords actually breaking the contract]]
** has HeroicWillpower- they HeroicWillpower--they were being mind controlled. Emphasis on the ''were''.
** didn't get out of the contract without a price- Rarely, price--Rarely, a villain will actually think to build in some sort of failsafe, such as some form of upkeep to retain RequiredSecondaryPowers preventing PowerIncontinence, PowerDegeneration, or the less pleasant aspects of having a LovecraftianSuperpower. This can be one of the more interesting forms of the trope, as the character will either have to live as a ReluctantMonster, or find some way of performing this upkeep on their own in a way they can live with. This can be difficult for a heroic character if this requires, for example, the [[PoweredByAForsakenChild sacrifice of a human soul]] or [[HorrorHunger drinking blood]] from time to time.
17th May '16 6:55:26 PM ThatBitterTase
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Added DiffLines:

** Abyssals and Infernals have received much more dangerous (to their masters) ways to rebel, thanks to later updates. Abyssals are able to completely defy their masters, Resonance be damned, if they act to protect or support their Lunar mates. And Infernals... well, it's called the Heresy charm set, the first one allows the Infernal to ''eat their master alive'' (it's not called "Swallowing the Scorpion" for nothing), and once this gets around, the Ebon Dragon is going to be beating his head against the wall for a week.
15th May '16 6:02:00 PM Aethersea
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** is just [[CosmicPlaything toying with the hero]]- In some modern works, even the Devil himself may be portrayed as FauxAffablyEvil, or even AffablyEvil. Like a parent with a three year old who decides to run away across the street, they're just letting the little tyke tucker himself out before reigning him in. Should the hero win some major victory that actually damages one of the {{Big Bad}}'s ''important'' plans, expect VillainousBreakdown, usually to the hero's detriment.

to:

** is just [[CosmicPlaything toying with the hero]]- In some modern works, even the Devil himself may be portrayed as FauxAffablyEvil, or even AffablyEvil. Like a parent with a three year old who decides to run away across the street, they're just letting the little tyke tucker himself out before reigning reining him in. Should the hero win some major victory that actually damages one of the {{Big Bad}}'s ''important'' plans, expect VillainousBreakdown, usually to the hero's detriment.
11th Mar '16 3:18:44 AM Morgenthaler
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* [[MemeticBadass Chuck]] [[ChuckNorris Norris]] agreed to trade his soul to the Devil in exchange for his [[{{Badass}} incredible martial arts abilities]] and [[MrFanservice rugged good looks]]. As soon as the exchange was completed, Norris used his newfound powers to kick the Devil's ass and retake his soul. The Devil, appreciating the {{irony}}, became friends with Norris. They now play poker in Hell every second Wednesday.

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* [[MemeticBadass Chuck]] [[ChuckNorris Norris]] Website/ChuckNorrisFacts: Chuck Norris agreed to trade his soul to the Devil in exchange for his [[{{Badass}} incredible martial arts abilities]] and [[MrFanservice rugged good looks]]. As soon as the exchange was completed, Norris used his newfound powers to kick the Devil's ass and retake his soul. The Devil, appreciating the {{irony}}, became friends with Norris. They now play poker in Hell every second Wednesday.
11th Mar '16 3:17:25 AM Morgenthaler
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** Raziel is actually an aversion on two counts. 1) While he does turn on the Elder God, neither he nor it are able to directly harm each other. 2) It's actually implied that [[spoiler: the Elder God didn't actually create or even empower him. It told Raziel that to manipulate him.]]
11th Mar '16 3:16:52 AM Morgenthaler
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* The Cerberus head honcho Illusive Man in ''VideoGame/MassEffect2'' resurrects the KIA Commander Shepard (in the course of "[[WhatDoYouMeanItsNotSymbolic Project Lazarus]]", no less) in return for the latter's help in fighting back the Collectors. Since the Collectors are a [[EnemyMine common enemy]], even Paragon Shepard cooperates with Cerberus willingly (although their methods differ), but the actual FaustianRebellion can come in the end of the game, when [[spoiler:Shepard decides whether to destroy the Collector base for good (Paragon choice) or let Cerberus reverse-engineer it, potentially leaving a backdoor for the Reapers]].

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* ''VideoGame/MassEffect2'':
**
The Cerberus head honcho Illusive Man in ''VideoGame/MassEffect2'' resurrects the KIA Commander Shepard (in the course of "[[WhatDoYouMeanItsNotSymbolic Project Lazarus]]", no less) in return for the latter's help in fighting back the Collectors. Since the Collectors are a [[EnemyMine common enemy]], even Paragon Shepard cooperates with Cerberus willingly (although their methods differ), but the actual FaustianRebellion can come in the end of the game, when [[spoiler:Shepard decides whether to destroy the Collector base for good (Paragon choice) or let Cerberus reverse-engineer it, potentially leaving a backdoor for the Reapers]].
11th Mar '16 3:15:55 AM Morgenthaler
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** Justified in that the Illusive Man believed that only Shepard had the qualities needed for success (which is why only Shepard could succeed in the first game), making her/him more receptive to Cerberus may have had completely unforseen consequences on her/his psyche. The Illusive Man acknowledged that Shepard could easily screw him over, but hoped that she/he would see things from his perspective (which Shepard does most of the time). This doesn't stop him from getting mad at the end.
11th Mar '16 3:15:04 AM Morgenthaler
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* Subverted in ''MemorySorrowAndThorn'', when [[spoiler: Pryrates uses the power the Storm King gave him in an attempt to bind the Storm King to his will. Of course, Pryrates is far from a good guy, and the power he gained is [[EvilIsNotAToy insufficient]].]] A KarmicDeath results.

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* Subverted in ''MemorySorrowAndThorn'', ''Literature/MemorySorrowAndThorn'', when [[spoiler: Pryrates uses the power the Storm King gave him in an attempt to bind the Storm King to his will. Of course, Pryrates is far from a good guy, and the power he gained is [[EvilIsNotAToy insufficient]].]] A KarmicDeath results.



* In ''{{Panthera}}'', after it's revealed that [[spoiler:Ari is actually Oosterhuis, Panthera wastes no time in transforming and getting ready to kick ass.]]

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* In ''{{Panthera}}'', ''Webcomic/{{Panthera}}'', after it's revealed that [[spoiler:Ari is actually Oosterhuis, Panthera wastes no time in transforming and getting ready to kick ass.]]



* In ''WesternAnimation/TheTransformers'', episode "Ghost In The Machine", Starscream's ghost makes a deal with Unicron's disembodied head. Starscream will help repair Unicron's body and Unicron will bring him back to life. At first, Starscream makes the repairs by taking over host bodies, but they get destroyed or lost over the course of the episode. Eventually, Starscream convinces Unicron that bringing him back to life (thus making him solid) is the only way to complete the repairs. Unicron does it and orders him to complete the repairs, but Starscream says, "Do it yourself!" and escapes, with Unicron powerless to stop him.

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* ''WesternAnimation/TheTransformers'':
**
In ''WesternAnimation/TheTransformers'', the episode "Ghost In The Machine", Starscream's ghost makes a deal with Unicron's disembodied head. Starscream will help repair Unicron's body and Unicron will bring him back to life. At first, Starscream makes the repairs by taking over host bodies, but they get destroyed or lost over the course of the episode. Eventually, Starscream convinces Unicron that bringing him back to life (thus making him solid) is the only way to complete the repairs. Unicron does it and orders him to complete the repairs, but Starscream says, "Do it yourself!" and escapes, with Unicron powerless to stop him.
11th Mar '16 3:13:41 AM Morgenthaler
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* Sam on ''Series/{{Reaper}}'' is trying to find a way out of the DealWithTheDevil his parents made that ended up ensnaring him to serve as Hell's bounty hunter. However, when a solid opportunity comes along, he gives it up to aid another, noting that Satan would probably find another way to get him back on Hell's roster.
** Furthermore, several ''demons'' have considered knocking over Satan and setting up a new rule in Hell. It hasn't exactly worked out well for most of them...

to:

* Sam on ''Series/{{Reaper}}'' is trying to find a way out of the DealWithTheDevil his parents made that ended up ensnaring him to serve as Hell's bounty hunter. However, when a solid opportunity comes along, he gives it up to aid another, noting that Satan would probably find another way to get him back on Hell's roster.
**
roster. Furthermore, several ''demons'' have considered knocking over Satan and setting up a new rule in Hell. It hasn't exactly worked out well for most of them...



** Not entirely unbelievable, however. Since Lucifer is locked up, he has no real power over demons or Hell till he's released, as a demoness told Dean that no demon had ever seen Lucifer prior to his release. Azazel did speak to him in a flashback, but only after years of "wandering the desert", whether he meant wandering Earth or literally searching in, say, Jerusalem, for Lucifer's Cage Door. Not all demons are complete devotees and, much like humans, some just want to preserve their own interest. [[spoiler: Crowley, for an example, wants Lucifer out of the picture, since Lucifer would eventually destroy all demons after conquering Earth. He takes it up to becoming King of Hell in the new season, so it's possible that one demon or another try to go against Lucifer and his followers. Of course, there remains to see if at least ONE DEMON will ever go against the stereotypical traits to actually help without having second or traitorous intentions.]]



** Yes, [[NiceJobFixingItVillain he often ends up screwing himself over in the long term]]. For example: Infernal Genius Declaration is one of said ways to act like a supervillain, and it basically involves [[JustBetweenYouAndMe informing the enemy of your plans while beating the guy over the head with how stupid he is]]. Now, ask yourself: [[WorldOfCardboardSpeech Is there any way]] ''[[WarriorTherapist for a hero]]'' [[BatmanGambit to use this]]?
*** The Infernals now have a number of Heresy Charms that allow them to eat their coadjutor, reformat their Exaltation, plug in an Urge that is basically a carbon copy of their motivation, and snap the tethers linking their shard to the phylactery-womb. It is believed that the Ebon Dragon's expression when this happens is going to be priceless... Even if it was AllAccordingToPlan. Himself being a subset of things that are real, he can't help screwing himself over any more than anyone/thing else.



** Or better yet, push his will on them a bit harder, and take them back into the fold of the Scourge at the best possible time. Like when the Death knights are working with said paladin, to shiv him right up the Light.
** Doesn't the final fight involve [[spoiler: the Lich King personally killing all of the [=PCs=] present, including any Death Knights, and stating that he only let them get this powerful so that he could recruit them all as undead? This would seem to indicate that he has the same reason not to stop the PC death knights from rebelling, and possibly that letting the Ebon Blade [=NPCs=] keep their free will was all part of either than plan or some other plan (they did, after all, get you readmitted into your faction.)]]
*** The same question could apply to the Forsaken, who were also slaves of the Lich King. [[WildMassGuessing Presumably,]] regaining your free will is enough to make the Lich King's getting you back either impossible or not worth the time.
11th Mar '16 3:10:23 AM Morgenthaler
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** What's more, in the later light novels and the fifth season, Lina mannages to [[spoiler: use Shabranigdo's power to kill him because the vessel she used it on wanted to die.]]



** It should also be noted that debating with Battler is the only way Beatrice can get him to admit the existence of witches (which would restore her power), and the red text was originally a weapon she was using against ''him'' (red text is always true, but also ExactWords -- and Battler figured out the latter).



** It should also be noted that the incident in the quote does happen: he ''offers'' to take the curse away, and Johnny denies the offer. This implies that he ''can'' remove the curse, but only if Johnny lets him as he no longer owns his soul.
** It isn't just a power set either; Johnny has a spirit bound to him and ''it'' grants the powers.
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