History Main / DoomedMoralVictor

13th Oct '17 1:56:41 AM PaulA
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* The fourth book of Jerry Pournelle's ''[[Literature/CoDominium War World]]'' anthology series has a short story by Creator/SMStirling called "Kings Who Die", in which a scholar/soldier-turned-bandit-refugee-turned-tribal-founder deliberately invokes this trope when he martyrs himself fighting a vastly superior foe in [[CombatByChampion single combat]]; he chooses to become a legend to inspire his newly-established society.
** And Stirling uses the trope again at the end of ''[[spoiler:A Meeting In Corvallis.]]''

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* The fourth book of Jerry Pournelle's ''[[Literature/CoDominium War World]]'' ''Literature/WarWorld'' anthology series has a short story by Creator/SMStirling called "Kings Who Die", in which a scholar/soldier-turned-bandit-refugee-turned-tribal-founder deliberately invokes this trope when he martyrs himself fighting a vastly superior foe in [[CombatByChampion single combat]]; he chooses to become a legend to inspire his newly-established society.
** And * Stirling uses the trope again in the Literature/{{Emberverse}} at the end of ''[[spoiler:A Meeting In at Corvallis.]]''
12th Oct '17 7:15:48 AM xcountryguy
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** [[spoiler: Rei's]] death as well. His injuries at the hands of Raoh leaves him with three days before dying horribly, which he uses to hunt down and kill his sworn enemy and ScrewDestiny for Mamiya, before wandering off to die alone so no one will see the carnage.
* Also happens in ''Manga/{{Basilisk}}'', where [[spoiler: Oboro can only free herself from her role as an UnwittingPawn by killing herself rather than her major rival ''and'' love interest.]]
* [[spoiler: Franz]] from ''Anime/{{Gankutsuou}}'', who [[spoiler: secretly takes Albert's place in the duel with the Count]]. He knows very well that it's impossible for him to win, but he still goes through with it, and tries his hardest to fight. He dies a very painful and bloody death.
** However, [[spoiler:Franz]]'s "moral victory" is in some ways [[spoiler: a literal one, as he not only succeeds in convincing Albert not to hate the Count for his actions, but a fragment of his sword, which got lodged in the Count's chest actually kills the Count later when he ceases to be Gankutsuou and becomes vulnerable again.]]
* ''Manga/OnePiece'': [[spoiler: Donquixote Rocinante's entire conflict with his older brother Donquixote Doflamingo. Rocinante dedicated his entire life to ending his brother's madness, but ultimately it ends in vain. Though, he still manages to get one up on his brother by preventing him from getting the Op-Op Fruit and giving it to Law, saving his life and allowing him to be free. On top of that, Law's love and devotion to Roci causes him to hate Doflamingo for his death and plan vengeance for the next thirteen years of his life. In essence, while Roci wasn't able to achieve his goal in life, his and his brother's actions created Doflamingo's worst enemy to take up his crusade against his brother in his stead, something that Doffy is very much aware of]].

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** [[spoiler: Rei's]] [[spoiler:Rei's]] death as well. His injuries at the hands of Raoh leaves him with three days before dying horribly, which he uses to hunt down and kill his sworn enemy and ScrewDestiny for Mamiya, before wandering off to die alone so no one will see the carnage.
* Also happens in ''Manga/{{Basilisk}}'', where [[spoiler: Oboro [[spoiler:Oboro can only free herself from her role as an UnwittingPawn by killing herself rather than her major rival ''and'' love interest.]]
* [[spoiler: Franz]] [[spoiler:Franz]] from ''Anime/{{Gankutsuou}}'', who [[spoiler: secretly [[spoiler:secretly takes Albert's place in the duel with the Count]]. He knows very well that it's impossible for him to win, but he still goes through with it, and tries his hardest to fight. He dies a very painful and bloody death.
** However, [[spoiler:Franz]]'s "moral victory" is in some ways [[spoiler: a [[spoiler:a literal one, as he not only succeeds in convincing Albert not to hate the Count for his actions, but a fragment of his sword, which got lodged in the Count's chest actually kills the Count later when he ceases to be Gankutsuou and becomes vulnerable again.]]
* ''Manga/OnePiece'': [[spoiler: Donquixote [[spoiler:Donquixote Rocinante's entire conflict with his older brother Donquixote Doflamingo. Rocinante dedicated his entire life to ending his brother's madness, but ultimately it ends in vain. Though, he still manages to get one up on his brother by preventing him from getting the Op-Op Fruit and giving it to Law, saving his life and allowing him to be free. On top of that, Law's love and devotion to Roci causes him to hate Doflamingo for his death and plan vengeance for the next thirteen years of his life. In essence, while Roci wasn't able to achieve his goal in life, his and his brother's actions created Doflamingo's worst enemy to take up his crusade against his brother in his stead, something that Doffy is very much aware of]].



** Also, [[spoiler: the girl with the glasses who is killed by a fingerman.]]
** And, for that matter [[spoiler: Valerie. Her refusal to give in even as she's tortured, experimented upon, and eventually killed by Norsefire -- for no greater crime than being lesbian -- is one of the major motivations for V, and later for Evey. V wouldn't have become the intentional Doomed Moral Victor he became if she hadn't become one without even trying.]]

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** Also, [[spoiler: the [[spoiler:the girl with the glasses who is killed by a fingerman.]]
** And, for that matter [[spoiler: Valerie.[[spoiler:Valerie. Her refusal to give in even as she's tortured, experimented upon, and eventually killed by Norsefire -- for no greater crime than being lesbian -- is one of the major motivations for V, and later for Evey. V wouldn't have become the intentional Doomed Moral Victor he became if she hadn't become one without even trying.]]



* Averted in ''Film/{{Scarface 1983}}'', when [[spoiler: Tony Montana was about to kill the anti-drug activist from the Bolivian government, but instead shoots the backup assassin at the last moment.]] Played straight later, however; Tony's [[EvenEvilHasStandards having standards]] and [[WouldntHurtAChild refusal to hurt children]] [[spoiler:lead Sosa to decide that [[YouHaveOutlivedYourUsefulness He Has Outlived His Usefulness]].]]

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* Averted in ''Film/{{Scarface 1983}}'', when [[spoiler: Tony [[spoiler:Tony Montana was about to kill the anti-drug activist from the Bolivian government, but instead shoots the backup assassin at the last moment.]] Played straight later, however; Tony's [[EvenEvilHasStandards having standards]] and [[WouldntHurtAChild refusal to hurt children]] [[spoiler:lead Sosa to decide that [[YouHaveOutlivedYourUsefulness He Has Outlived His Usefulness]].]]



* ''Film/OneFlewOverTheCuckoosNest'', as [[spoiler: the death of Billy inspires [=McMurphy=] to attack Nurse Ratched, and the lobotomy of [=McMurphy=] inspires the Chief to escape, and one assumes the others escaped through the hole in the window as well, though that isn't shown.]]
* Parodied in ''Film/MontyPythonsLifeOfBrian'', where [[spoiler: instead of the PFJ coming to rescue Brian from the cross, they leave him up there precisely for this trope, much to his dismay.]]

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* ''Film/OneFlewOverTheCuckoosNest'', as [[spoiler: the [[spoiler:the death of Billy inspires [=McMurphy=] to attack Nurse Ratched, and the lobotomy of [=McMurphy=] inspires the Chief to escape, and one assumes the others escaped through the hole in the window as well, though that isn't shown.]]
* Parodied in ''Film/MontyPythonsLifeOfBrian'', where [[spoiler: instead [[spoiler:instead of the PFJ coming to rescue Brian from the cross, they leave him up there precisely for this trope, much to his dismay.]]



* ''Film/RogueOne'': [[spoiler: The main characters are killed by the Death Star,]] but not before [[spoiler: finding and transmitting the Death Star's weakness to the rebels, ensuring the Empire's defeat at the hands of the Rebel Alliance.]]

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* ''Film/RogueOne'': [[spoiler: The [[spoiler:The main characters are killed by the Death Star,]] but not before [[spoiler: finding [[spoiler:finding and transmitting the Death Star's weakness to the rebels, ensuring the Empire's defeat at the hands of the Rebel Alliance.]]



* Subverted in ''Literature/NineteenEightyFour'', where the protagonists ''think'' their struggle will end like this, but [[spoiler: they are both broken and changed by the Party instead, making it a case of ShootTheShaggyDog.]]

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* Subverted in ''Literature/NineteenEightyFour'', where the protagonists ''think'' their struggle will end like this, but [[spoiler: they [[spoiler:they are both broken and changed by the Party instead, making it a case of ShootTheShaggyDog.]]



* Inverted rather tragically in ''Literature/TheSagaOfDarrenShan'', with [[spoiler: Kurda Smahlt]]. After discovering that his friend is a traitor, Darren exposes the plot, and helps the vampires wipe out [[spoiler: Kurda]]'s allies... only for it to be revealed at the later trial that [[spoiler: Kurda]] was trying to save the vampires from the war that was destined to happen, that would wipe them all out. Darren comes to see his point of view, somewhat, but due to the vampires' HonorBeforeReason attitude, [[spoiler: Kurda is still seen as a traitor and absolute scum, completely dishonored. After Kurda's death, Darren is offered the throne that was to have been Kurda's, and Darren is regarded as a hero for his role in exposing the plot.]] Later on, several characters acknowledge the fact that [[spoiler: Kurda]] had good points that should have been listened to before it even came to that, but it's too little, too late.

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* Inverted rather tragically in ''Literature/TheSagaOfDarrenShan'', with [[spoiler: Kurda [[spoiler:Kurda Smahlt]]. After discovering that his friend is a traitor, Darren exposes the plot, and helps the vampires wipe out [[spoiler: Kurda]]'s [[spoiler:Kurda]]'s allies... only for it to be revealed at the later trial that [[spoiler: Kurda]] [[spoiler:Kurda]] was trying to save the vampires from the war that was destined to happen, that would wipe them all out. Darren comes to see his point of view, somewhat, but due to the vampires' HonorBeforeReason attitude, [[spoiler: Kurda [[spoiler:Kurda is still seen as a traitor and absolute scum, completely dishonored. After Kurda's death, Darren is offered the throne that was to have been Kurda's, and Darren is regarded as a hero for his role in exposing the plot.]] Later on, several characters acknowledge the fact that [[spoiler: Kurda]] [[spoiler:Kurda]] had good points that should have been listened to before it even came to that, but it's too little, too late.



** And Stirling uses the trope again at the end of ''[[spoiler: A Meeting In Corvallis.]]''

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** And Stirling uses the trope again at the end of ''[[spoiler: A ''[[spoiler:A Meeting In Corvallis.]]''



* In Creator/RogerZelazny's short story ''The Keys to December'', the main character's people are {{terraform}}ing a world to fit them, since the only world they could live on was destroyed. The native lifeforms, under the new evolutionary pressure, evolve sentience and religion (worshiping the main character as he awakes every 250 years and patrols the world to see how the terraforming is going). [[spoiler: He realizes that they cannot evolve further and, after failing to convince his people to stop or slow the terraforming, leads his believers in a rebellion.]] Finally, he and his main rival agree to put the question to a vote of their people--as the main character says, if he loses, "I'll retire and you can be God." [[spoiler: He loses, and lives out his life as the God of the presumably now-doomed people.]]

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* In Creator/RogerZelazny's short story ''The Keys to December'', the main character's people are {{terraform}}ing a world to fit them, since the only world they could live on was destroyed. The native lifeforms, under the new evolutionary pressure, evolve sentience and religion (worshiping the main character as he awakes every 250 years and patrols the world to see how the terraforming is going). [[spoiler: He [[spoiler:He realizes that they cannot evolve further and, after failing to convince his people to stop or slow the terraforming, leads his believers in a rebellion.]] Finally, he and his main rival agree to put the question to a vote of their people--as the main character says, if he loses, "I'll retire and you can be God." [[spoiler: He [[spoiler:He loses, and lives out his life as the God of the presumably now-doomed people.]]



** Somewhat subverted, given that [[spoiler: Kelsier's plan to overthrow the empire ''actually succeeds'']]

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** Somewhat subverted, given that [[spoiler: Kelsier's [[spoiler:Kelsier's plan to overthrow the empire ''actually succeeds'']]



* Eddard Stark of ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' is set up like this. He is facing death after a failed coup to remove the illegitimate Joffrey as king. Varys, whom he thought an ally, threatens his daughters into confessing guilt to stop war. He recants [[spoiler: but is executed anyway and dies a traitor]]. It's ambiguous whether this is a {{Subversion}} (ie. whether or not he is actually a "moral victor") [[spoiler: especially since his family ends up getting scattered and slaughtered afterwards]], or if subsequent events prove that he was right all along as the characters who ''lack'' his honour don't really fare any better [[spoiler: were probably planning to kill him to begin with, and in certain cases were planning to engineer a civil war from the start regardless of what Ned personally did.]]

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* Eddard Stark of ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' is set up like this. He is facing death after a failed coup to remove the illegitimate Joffrey as king. Varys, whom he thought an ally, threatens his daughters into confessing guilt to stop war. He recants [[spoiler: but [[spoiler:but is executed anyway and dies a traitor]]. It's ambiguous whether this is a {{Subversion}} (ie. whether or not he is actually a "moral victor") [[spoiler: especially [[spoiler:especially since his family ends up getting scattered and slaughtered afterwards]], or if subsequent events prove that he was right all along as the characters who ''lack'' his honour don't really fare any better [[spoiler: were [[spoiler:were probably planning to kill him to begin with, and in certain cases were planning to engineer a civil war from the start regardless of what Ned personally did.]]



* In ''Literature/FiveLittlePigs'', many of the people Literature/HerculePoirot interviews about Caroline Crayle, the woman convicted for the murder of her husband that he has been hired to exonerate, note that although they don't believe in her innocence, the brave and dignified way she meets her conviction and eventual death was really quite impressive. [[spoiler: And she actually turns out to be this for the real murderer, who -- in addition to ruining her life and chances for future happiness due to her crime -- can't even take any satisfaction in seeing Caroline go down for the murder she committed, because Caroline's bravery and nobility just further remind her of how empty and pathetic she really is deep down.]]

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* In ''Literature/FiveLittlePigs'', many of the people Literature/HerculePoirot interviews about Caroline Crayle, the woman convicted for the murder of her husband that he has been hired to exonerate, note that although they don't believe in her innocence, the brave and dignified way she meets her conviction and eventual death was really quite impressive. [[spoiler: And [[spoiler:And she actually turns out to be this for the real murderer, who -- in addition to ruining her life and chances for future happiness due to her crime -- can't even take any satisfaction in seeing Caroline go down for the murder she committed, because Caroline's bravery and nobility just further remind her of how empty and pathetic she really is deep down.]]



** [[spoiler: Considering that the group manages to take out more than two thirds of the Federation's military forces, allow for several other human powers to expand, and begin a full scale (though now leaderless) rebellion by uniting various warlords, it's easy to see why.]]

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** [[spoiler: Considering [[spoiler:Considering that the group manages to take out more than two thirds of the Federation's military forces, allow for several other human powers to expand, and begin a full scale (though now leaderless) rebellion by uniting various warlords, it's easy to see why.]]



* Invoked in ''Series/{{Community}}'' episode "[[Recap/CommunityS1E19BeginnerPottery Beginner Pottery]]" when Shirley becomes one when she captains her ship into a "storm" in order to save Pierce, stating she would rather be nice than strong. Her reward: [[spoiler: becoming an admiral, at least in the eyes of the professor.]]

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* Invoked in ''Series/{{Community}}'' episode "[[Recap/CommunityS1E19BeginnerPottery Beginner Pottery]]" when Shirley becomes one when she captains her ship into a "storm" in order to save Pierce, stating she would rather be nice than strong. Her reward: [[spoiler: becoming [[spoiler:becoming an admiral, at least in the eyes of the professor.]]



* Subverted in one episode of ''The Shadow of the Tower'' miniseries which featured a heretical/protestant preacher in what was then a Catholic England. The preacher refused to recant his beliefs knowing that he would have been burnt at the stake either way. He managed to remained steadfast (though somewhat conflicted) even an argument from King Henry VII himself and it seemed that he will die while maintaining his beliefs. [[spoiler: Just moments before his execution though, he was overwhelmed by the fear of uncertainty and finally recanted his beliefs.]]

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* Subverted in one episode of ''The Shadow of the Tower'' miniseries which featured a heretical/protestant preacher in what was then a Catholic England. The preacher refused to recant his beliefs knowing that he would have been burnt at the stake either way. He managed to remained steadfast (though somewhat conflicted) even an argument from King Henry VII himself and it seemed that he will die while maintaining his beliefs. [[spoiler: Just [[spoiler:Just moments before his execution though, he was overwhelmed by the fear of uncertainty and finally recanted his beliefs.]]



%%* ''FireEmblem: Genealogy of the Holy War'': [[spoiler: Sigurd. Just Sigurd.]]

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%%* ''FireEmblem: Genealogy of the Holy War'': [[spoiler: Sigurd.[[spoiler:Sigurd. Just Sigurd.]]



* This is the crux of [[spoiler:[[FutureBadass Heroic Spirit Emiya]]]] aka Archer's character in VisualNovel/FateStayNight. In life he spent himself relentlessly pursuing the highest moral choices; saving as many people as possible on either side of a conflict without regard for his own feelings or situation. His reward was [[FieldOfBlades dying tired and alone on a hill of swords]]. [[spoiler: He was actually okay with this until he went to the Throne of Heroes after death, and was tasked with protecting humanity from itself by slaughtering humans whose actions would lead to humanity's self-destruction. In the face of humanity's self-destructive nature, [[DespairEventHorizon he came to hate humanity and his own ideals]]]].

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* This is the crux of [[spoiler:[[FutureBadass Heroic Spirit Emiya]]]] aka Archer's character in VisualNovel/FateStayNight. In life he spent himself relentlessly pursuing the highest moral choices; saving as many people as possible on either side of a conflict without regard for his own feelings or situation. His reward was [[FieldOfBlades dying tired and alone on a hill of swords]]. [[spoiler: He [[spoiler:He was actually okay with this until he went to the Throne of Heroes after death, and was tasked with protecting humanity from itself by slaughtering humans whose actions would lead to humanity's self-destruction. In the face of humanity's self-destructive nature, [[DespairEventHorizon he came to hate humanity and his own ideals]]]].
10th Oct '17 10:07:44 PM appealus
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** It also happens to Marian the the end of the second season. [[spoiler:She finally stands up to Guy and admits to him (and herself) that she's in love with Robin. Guy then runs her through with his sword.]]

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** It also happens to Marian the at the end of the second season. [[spoiler:She finally stands up to Guy and admits to him (and herself) that she's in love with Robin. Guy then runs her through with his sword.]]
31st Aug '17 7:30:40 AM DoctorNemesis
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Added DiffLines:

* In ''Literature/FiveLittlePigs'', many of the people Literature/HerculePoirot interviews about Caroline Crayle, the woman convicted for the murder of her husband that he has been hired to exonerate, note that although they don't believe in her innocence, the brave and dignified way she meets her conviction and eventual death was really quite impressive. [[spoiler: And she actually turns out to be this for the real murderer, who -- in addition to ruining her life and chances for future happiness due to her crime -- can't even take any satisfaction in seeing Caroline go down for the murder she committed, because Caroline's bravery and nobility just further remind her of how empty and pathetic she really is deep down.]]
9th Aug '17 9:09:06 PM PaulA
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** More so in the book, where [[spoiler:[=McMurphy's=] attack on Ratched gets him lobotomized, as in the film, but we're explicitly told that one by one the other named patients have checked out. The Chief is just the last one to go.]]


Added DiffLines:

* In ''Literature/OneFlewOverTheCuckoosNest'', [[spoiler:the death of Billy inspires [=McMurphy=] to attack Nurse Ratched, and the lobotomy of [=McMurphy=] leads to Ratched's downfall. We're explicitly told that one by one the other named patients have checked out. The Chief is just the last one to go.]]
6th Jul '17 5:40:34 AM BlackDragon
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Added DiffLines:

* This is the stated plan of the Vendrian Guards' Rebellion at the start of ''{{Tyranny}}''. Having already been defeated by, and surrendered to, the forces of Overlord Kyros, they're well aware that they can't hope to prevail - but they hope that by setting an example of defiance, they can inspire the other conquered territories, in The Tiers and beyond, to rebel as well. Somewhat ironically, it never actually WORKS - the only way for a successful rebellion to occur is for the player to side with them, in which case they avert the 'Doomed' qualifier thanks to some clever trickery on your part.
21st Jun '17 9:17:53 PM Rockduded
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* ''Film/RogueOne'': [[spoiler: The main characters are killed by the Death Star,]] but not before [[finding and transmitting the Death Star's weakness to the rebels, ensuring the Empire's defeat at the hands of the Rebel Alliance.]]

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* ''Film/RogueOne'': [[spoiler: The main characters are killed by the Death Star,]] but not before [[finding [[spoiler: finding and transmitting the Death Star's weakness to the rebels, ensuring the Empire's defeat at the hands of the Rebel Alliance.]]
21st Jun '17 9:17:06 PM Rockduded
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Added DiffLines:

* ''Film/RogueOne'': [[spoiler: The main characters are killed by the Death Star,]] but not before [[finding and transmitting the Death Star's weakness to the rebels, ensuring the Empire's defeat at the hands of the Rebel Alliance.]]
20th Jun '17 11:42:09 AM erforce
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%%* ''Film/TheWickerMan''.

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%%* ''Film/TheWickerMan''.''Film/TheWickerMan1973''.
30th May '17 1:44:19 AM Morgenthaler
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* One could make this argument for Leonidas and the Spartans of ''[[ThreeHundred 300]]'', railing against the inevitable conquest of a gigantic army that proves not so inevitable after all. But not until after they've died to a man proving it.

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* One could make this argument for Leonidas and the Spartans of ''[[ThreeHundred 300]]'', ''Film/ThreeHundred'', railing against the inevitable conquest of a gigantic army that proves not so inevitable after all. But not until after they've died to a man proving it.
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