History Main / DecisiveBattle

13th Dec '16 8:19:44 PM Doug86
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* In the ''Franchise/FireEmblem'' series, being a series of strategy RPG games all about warfare where death is (mostly) permanent, losing any battle means game over, but at least once a game there are battles where victory turns the tides of the conflict on a larger scale than your own survival, even when it's not the final battle itself.

to:

* In the ''Franchise/FireEmblem'' ''VideoGame/FireEmblem'' series, being a series of strategy RPG games all about warfare where death is (mostly) permanent, losing any battle means game over, but at least once a game there are battles where victory turns the tides of the conflict on a larger scale than your own survival, even when it's not the final battle itself.
4th Dec '16 12:10:58 PM StarSword
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* ''Franchise/StarWars'': The Battle of Endor in ''Film/ReturnOfTheJedi''. The Second Death Star is destroyed, Emperor Palpatine is killed and with him the Banite Sith Order, and the Rebels inflict serious damage on a major Imperial fleet (including killing a number of senior flag officers with the Super Star Destroyer ''Executor''). Both ''Franchise/StarWarsLegends'' and the new Creator/{{Disney}} continuity take this as ''the'' turning point that led to the fall of the Galactic Empire.

to:

* ''Franchise/StarWars'': The Battle of Endor in ''Film/ReturnOfTheJedi''. The Second Death Star is destroyed, Emperor Palpatine is and Darth Vader are killed and with him them the Banite Sith Order, and the Rebels inflict serious damage on a major Imperial fleet (including killing a number of senior flag officers with aboard the Super Star Destroyer ''Executor''). Both ExpandedUniverse continuities, ''Franchise/StarWarsLegends'' and the new Creator/{{Disney}} continuity Creator/{{Disney}}-managed ''Franchise/StarWarsExpandedUniverse'', take this as ''the'' turning point that led to the fall of the Galactic Empire.



* The grav lance in ''Literature/HonorHarrington: On Basilisk Station'' is created as a response to the ''inability'' to pursue one in space due to ReactionlessDrive physics. Fleet battles tend to end with the losing side standing up on their impeller wedges and fleeing, using the impenetrability of the impeller field as a shield; any pursuers expose their vulnerable bow to the defenders' less-vulnerable stern. The grav lance is designed to eliminate the sidewall DeflectorShield and allow highly damaging energy torpedoes to go to work on the bare hull, but [[AwesomeButImpractical its range is too short to make it practical]] unless you can pull off an ambush. Ultimately, new developments make decisive battles more feasible.

to:

* The grav lance in ''Literature/HonorHarrington: On Basilisk Station'' is created as a response to the ''inability'' to pursue one in space due to ReactionlessDrive physics. Fleet The series starts with the "arms vs. armor" balance tipped way over in the armor direction, so fleet battles tend to end with the losing side standing up on their impeller wedges and fleeing, using the impenetrability of the impeller field as a shield; any shield. Any pursuers expose their vulnerable bow to the defenders' less-vulnerable stern. The grav lance which Honor's ship is equipped with is designed to eliminate the sidewall DeflectorShield and allow highly damaging energy torpedoes to go to work on the bare hull, but [[AwesomeButImpractical its range is too short to make it practical]] unless you can pull off an ambush. Ultimately, By later books, new developments developments[[note]]mainly [[MacrossMissileMassacre massed missile fire via missile pods to overwhelm the enemy's defenses]] and obliterate them before they can flee[[/note]] make decisive battles more feasible.
3rd Dec '16 12:22:02 PM StarSword
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* ''Franchise/StarWars'': The Battle of Endor in ''Film/ReturnOfTheJedi''. The Second Death Star is destroyed, Emperor Palpatine is killed and with him the Banite Sith Order, and the Rebels inflict serious damage on a major Imperial fleet. Both ''Franchise/StarWarsLegends'' and the new Creator/{{Disney}} continuity take this as ''the'' turning point that led to the fall of the Galactic Empire.

to:

* ''Franchise/StarWars'': The Battle of Endor in ''Film/ReturnOfTheJedi''. The Second Death Star is destroyed, Emperor Palpatine is killed and with him the Banite Sith Order, and the Rebels inflict serious damage on a major Imperial fleet.fleet (including killing a number of senior flag officers with the Super Star Destroyer ''Executor''). Both ''Franchise/StarWarsLegends'' and the new Creator/{{Disney}} continuity take this as ''the'' turning point that led to the fall of the Galactic Empire.



* ''Franchise/StarWarsLegends: The Literature/NewJediOrder -- Destiny's Way'' is {{bookend|s}}ed by two of them. It begins with the Alliance ambushing and destroying a sizable Yuuzhan Vong fleet at Obroa-Skai, seeking to assassinate Supreme Overlord Shimmra who turned out not to be aboard. After this, Shimmra complains to his generals that the loss of this fleet means the Yuuzhan Vong no longer have any strategic reserve remaining and berates them for advancing into the galaxy "over a rampart of our own dead". The book then ends with the Alliance luring in and decisively destroying a fleet led by Warmaster Tsavong Lah at Ebaq 9; Lah ejects and is killed on the ground by Jaina Solo. The war continues for another five books (this is a ''long'' series), but after ''Destiny's Way'' it's pretty much all downhill for the Vong.

to:

* ''Franchise/StarWarsLegends: The Literature/NewJediOrder -- Destiny's Way'' is {{bookend|s}}ed by two of them. It begins with the Alliance ambushing and destroying a sizable Yuuzhan Vong fleet at Obroa-Skai, seeking to assassinate Supreme Overlord Shimmra who turned out not to be aboard. After this, Shimmra complains to his generals that the loss of this fleet means the Yuuzhan Vong no longer have any strategic reserve remaining and berates them for advancing into the galaxy "over a rampart of our own dead". The book then ends with the Alliance luring in and decisively destroying a fleet led by Warmaster Tsavong Lah at Ebaq 9; Lah ejects from his flagship in an EscapePod and is killed on the ground by Jaina Solo. The war continues for another five books (this is a ''long'' series), but after ''Destiny's Way'' it's pretty much all downhill for the Vong.



* In the backstory for ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'', and its TV adaptation ''Series/GameOfThrones'', the Battle of the Trident was the decisive battle of Robert's Rebellion. Despite setbacks and defeats at the hands of House Tyrell, Robert Baratheon faced Prince Rhaegar Targaryen at the Trident and personally killed him, shattering the royal armies. This battle made Lord Tywin Lannister, who by then had been sitting out the war, to realize that the rebel cause would soon be victorious and so lead his own armies to King's Landing to sack it as a sign of fealty to Robert.



* In ''Franchise/StarWars'', the separate destruction of both Death Stars are this. The first one at Yavin killed a number of the Emperor's best servants, especially Grand Moff Tarkin. However, it is subverted in that the Imperial Fleet was not damaged and a squadron of Star Destroyers was quickly sent to Yavin to quarantine the Rebels. A better example is the Second Death Star at Endor. Its destruction and the preceding space battle resulted in the death of the Emperor, Darth Vader, along with the loss of the flagship ''Executor'' and nearly half the fleet engaged. ExpandedUniverse material reveals that the ''Executor'' was the greater loss; while other leaders stepped in to fill the Emperor's shoes and frankly couldn't do worse than he had, the loss of the flagship (and the best and brightest of the officer corp that were serving on her) was a blow they didn't recover from until the war had turned against them.
* In the backstory for ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'', and its TV adaptation ''Series/GameOfThrones'', the Battle of the Trident was the decisive battle of Robert's Rebellion. Despite setbacks and defeats at the hands of House Tyrell, Robert Baratheon faced Prince Rhaegar Targaryen at the Trident and personally killed him, shattering the royal armies. This battle made Lord Tywin Lannister, who by then had been sitting out the war, to realize that the rebel cause would soon be victorious and so lead his own armies to King's Landing to sack it as a sign of fealty to Robert.
20th Nov '16 2:43:48 PM StarSword
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* The grav lance in ''Literature/HonorHarrington: On Basilisk Station'' is created as a response to the ''inability'' to pursue one in space due to ReactionlessDrive physics. Fleet battles tend to end with the losing side standing up on their impeller wedges and fleeing, using the impenetrability of the impeller field as a shield; any pursuers expose their vulnerable bow to the defenders' less-vulnerable stern. The grav lance is designed to eliminate the sidewall DeflectorShield and allow highly damaging energy torpedoes to go to work on the bare hull, but its range is too short to make it practical. Ultimately, new developments make decisive battles more feasible.

to:

* The grav lance in ''Literature/HonorHarrington: On Basilisk Station'' is created as a response to the ''inability'' to pursue one in space due to ReactionlessDrive physics. Fleet battles tend to end with the losing side standing up on their impeller wedges and fleeing, using the impenetrability of the impeller field as a shield; any pursuers expose their vulnerable bow to the defenders' less-vulnerable stern. The grav lance is designed to eliminate the sidewall DeflectorShield and allow highly damaging energy torpedoes to go to work on the bare hull, but [[AwesomeButImpractical its range is too short to make it practical.practical]] unless you can pull off an ambush. Ultimately, new developments make decisive battles more feasible.
20th Nov '16 2:41:42 PM StarSword
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[[foldercontrol]]

[[folder:Film -- Live-Action]]
* ''Franchise/StarWars'': The Battle of Endor in ''Film/ReturnOfTheJedi''. The Second Death Star is destroyed, Emperor Palpatine is killed and with him the Banite Sith Order, and the Rebels inflict serious damage on a major Imperial fleet. Both ''Franchise/StarWarsLegends'' and the new Creator/{{Disney}} continuity take this as ''the'' turning point that led to the fall of the Galactic Empire.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Live-Action TV]]
* Several happen during the Dominion War in ''Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine'':
** Operation Return sees the Federation reclaiming Deep Space Nine and the annihilation of the Dominion's reinforcements from the Gamma Quadrant.
** The Second Battle of Chin'toka marks the Breen's first major engagement in the war, wiping out an entire fleet with unstoppable energy-dampening weapons.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Literature]]



** In ''VideoGame/DynastyWarriors 8'', the [[ForWantOfANail turning point]] that leads to Wei's [[WhatIf Hypothetical Route]] is Wei emerging victorious at Chibi.



* ''Franchise/StarWarsLegends: The Literature/NewJediOrder -- Destiny's Way'' is {{bookend|s}}ed by two of them. It begins with the Alliance ambushing and destroying a sizable Yuuzhan Vong fleet at Obroa-Skai, seeking to assassinate Supreme Overlord Shimmra who turned out not to be aboard. After this, Shimmra complains to his generals that the loss of this fleet means the Yuuzhan Vong no longer have any strategic reserve remaining and berates them for advancing into the galaxy "over a rampart of our own dead". The book then ends with the Alliance luring in and decisively destroying a fleet led by Warmaster Tsavong Lah at Ebaq 9; Lah ejects and is killed on the ground by Jaina Solo. The war continues for another five books (this is a ''long'' series), but after ''Destiny's Way'' it's pretty much all downhill for the Vong.
* The grav lance in ''Literature/HonorHarrington: On Basilisk Station'' is created as a response to the ''inability'' to pursue one in space due to ReactionlessDrive physics. Fleet battles tend to end with the losing side standing up on their impeller wedges and fleeing, using the impenetrability of the impeller field as a shield; any pursuers expose their vulnerable bow to the defenders' less-vulnerable stern. The grav lance is designed to eliminate the sidewall DeflectorShield and allow highly damaging energy torpedoes to go to work on the bare hull, but its range is too short to make it practical. Ultimately, new developments make decisive battles more feasible.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Tabletop Games]]
* In ''Tabletopgame/BattleTech'', the Battle of Tukayyid was a last stand against the invading ProudWarriorRace Clans after the previously neutral [=ComStar=] realized the Clan's end goal was capturing PlanetTerra, their headquarters. [=ComStar=] set up a treaty with the Clans; should [=ComStar=] win, the Clans would sign a 15 year armistice with the rest of the Inner Sphere, but if the Clans won ComStar would not oppose them. [=ComStar=] unveiled the [[SuperweaponSurprise hidden ComGuard]], a well trained army using LostTechnology. Through martial prowess, excellent leadership, and exploitation of the [[HonorBeforeReason Clans warrior code]], the battle was won in favor of [=ComStar=], with only three of the eleven clans achieving even part of the agreed upon objectives. The Battle of Tukayyid became one of the largest and most important battles in the history of the Inner Sphere, appearing in several of the [[Franchise/BattleTechExpandedUniverse expanded universe]] novels.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Video Games]]
** In ''VideoGame/DynastyWarriors 8'', the [[ForWantOfANail turning point]] that leads to Wei's [[WhatIf Hypothetical Route]] is Wei emerging victorious at Chibi.



* Several happen during the [[Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine Dominion War]]:
** Operation Return sees the Federation reclaiming Deep Space Nine and the annihilation of the Dominion's reinforcements from the Gamma Quadrant.
** The Second Battle of Chin'toka marks the Breen's first major engagement in the war, wiping out an entire fleet with unstoppable energy-dampening weapons.

to:

* Several happen during the [[Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine Dominion War]]:
** Operation Return sees the Federation reclaiming Deep Space Nine and the annihilation of the Dominion's reinforcements from the Gamma Quadrant.
** The Second Battle of Chin'toka marks the Breen's first major engagement in the war, wiping out an entire fleet with unstoppable energy-dampening weapons.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Real Life]]



* In ''Tabletopgame/BattleTech'', the Battle of Tukayyid was a last stand against the invading ProudWarriorRace Clans after the previously neutral [=ComStar=] realized the Clan's end goal was capturing PlanetTerra, their headquarters. [=ComStar=] set up a treaty with the Clans; should [=ComStar=] win, the Clans would sign a 15 year armistice with the rest of the Inner Sphere, but if the Clans won ComStar would not oppose them. [=ComStar=] unveiled the [[SuperweaponSurprise hidden ComGuard]], a well trained army using LostTechnology. Through martial prowess, excellent leadership, and exploitation of the [[HonorBeforeReason Clans warrior code]], the battle was won in favor of [=ComStar=], with only three of the eleven clans achieving even part of the agreed upon objectives. The Battle of Tukayyid became one of the largest and most important battles in the history of the Inner Sphere, appearing in several of the [[Franchise/BattleTechExpandedUniverse expanded universe]] novels.

to:

* In ''Tabletopgame/BattleTech'', the Battle of Tukayyid was a last stand against the invading ProudWarriorRace Clans after the previously neutral [=ComStar=] realized the Clan's end goal was capturing PlanetTerra, their headquarters. [=ComStar=] set up a treaty with the Clans; should [=ComStar=] win, the Clans would sign a 15 year armistice with the rest of the Inner Sphere, but if the Clans won ComStar would not oppose them. [=ComStar=] unveiled the [[SuperweaponSurprise hidden ComGuard]], a well trained army using LostTechnology. Through martial prowess, excellent leadership, and exploitation of the [[HonorBeforeReason Clans warrior code]], the battle was won in favor of [=ComStar=], with only three of the eleven clans achieving even part of the agreed upon objectives. The Battle of Tukayyid became one of the largest and most important battles in the history of the Inner Sphere, appearing in several of the [[Franchise/BattleTechExpandedUniverse expanded universe]] novels.[[/folder]]
----
16th Oct '16 7:16:15 AM leonardd
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* In UsefulNotes/WorldWarII there are several examples of battles which helped turn the tide in favour of the allies. The battle of Stalingrad was the big one [[note]] The Soviets let the Germans dangerously overextend and totally exhaust themselves trying to take the city while drip-feeding just enough men in to keep them from taking it... before launching a devastating surprise counter-offensive that encircled the entire German siege-force. Although ''Unternehmen Taifun'' had been a defeat, the Soviet counter-offensive that had followed it had not been well-planned enough to make it a ''decisive'' one[[/note]], with 200,000 German combat-troops (and 200,000 Rumanians+Italians) and all their heavy weapons being killed or forced to surrender - this being a full 1/8 of the Germans' entire combat-strength on the Ostfront (1.6 million), and 1/9 of their entire combat-strength. While this may not sound like much, take our word for it that Germany would take at least six months to replace those losses[[note]] Well. 'Six months' at all-out war-production levels, but in 1942 Hitler had refused to fully convert the German economy to a war-footing. It was only ''after'' Stalingrad that this was done. This is because replacing these losses with the 1942-level of production would take ''four years''. [[/note]]and there was no way in hell that the Soviets were going to give them that kind of time (after Stalingrad they went on to liberate the entire Caucasus and eastern Ukraine in four months, killing or taking prisoner another 100,000 German and 100,000 Rumanian+Italian combat troops). Before Stalingrad, some thought the Germans could win the war. After Stalingrad, even the Germans themselves knew that they would lose[[note]] If only because before Taifun/The Winter Counter-Offensive/Stalingrad, the Germans assumed that reality did not apply to them and they would beat absolutely anyone they made war upon. As early as 29/6/1941, the seventh day of the war with the USSR, Joseph Goebbels (German minister of propaganda) noted that "In foreign countries our military situation is, if anything, being judged rather too optimistically, even by our enemies. They think our Wehrmacht capable of the most amazing achievements." This can be seen even today, where it is hard to find any works from the USA which analyse the Wehrmacht for what it really was (deeply flawed institution that could only succeed against weaker opponents) and not the image it projected (flawless, invincible army of genius supermen that only failed because it was [[ZergRush drowned out by endless hordes of mindless inferiors/subhumans]]) [[/note]].

to:

* In UsefulNotes/WorldWarII there are several examples of battles which helped turn the tide in favour of the allies. The battle of Stalingrad was the big one [[note]] The Soviets let the Germans dangerously overextend and totally exhaust themselves trying to take the city while drip-feeding just enough men in to keep them from taking it... before launching a devastating surprise counter-offensive that encircled the entire German siege-force. Although ''Unternehmen Taifun'' had been a defeat, the Soviet counter-offensive that had followed it had not been well-planned enough to make it a ''decisive'' one[[/note]], with 200,000 German combat-troops (and 200,000 Rumanians+Italians) and all their heavy weapons being killed or forced to surrender - this being a full 1/8 of the Germans' entire combat-strength on the Ostfront (1.6 million), and 1/9 of their entire combat-strength. While this may not sound like much, take our word for it that Germany would take at least six months to replace those losses[[note]] Well. 'Six months' at all-out war-production levels, but in 1942 Hitler had refused to fully convert the German economy to a war-footing. It was only ''after'' Stalingrad that this was done. This is because replacing these losses with the 1942-level of production would take ''four years''. [[/note]]and there was no way in hell that the Soviets were going to give them that kind of time (after Stalingrad they went on to liberate the entire Caucasus and eastern Ukraine in four months, killing or taking prisoner another 100,000 German and 100,000 Rumanian+Italian combat troops). Before Stalingrad, some thought the Germans could win the war. After Stalingrad, even the Germans themselves knew that they would lose[[note]] If only because before Taifun/The Winter Counter-Offensive/Stalingrad, the Germans assumed that reality did not apply to them and they would beat absolutely anyone they made war upon. As early as 29/6/1941, the seventh day of the war with the USSR, Joseph Goebbels (German minister of propaganda) noted that "In foreign countries our military situation is, if anything, being judged rather too optimistically, even by our enemies. They think our Wehrmacht capable of the most amazing achievements." This can be seen even today, where it is hard to find any works from the USA which analyse the Wehrmacht for what it really was (deeply flawed institution that could only succeed against weaker opponents) and not the image it projected (flawless, invincible army of genius supermen that only failed because it was [[ZergRush drowned out by endless hordes of mindless inferiors/subhumans]]) [[/note]].
3rd Aug '16 6:19:46 PM Quanyails
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-->--''Anime/NeonGenesisEvangelion''

to:

-->--''Anime/NeonGenesisEvangelion''
-->--"Decisive Battle", ''Anime/NeonGenesisEvangelion''



* In the ''Franchise/{{FireEmblem}}'' series, being a series of strategy RPG games all about warfare where death is (mostly) permanent, losing any battle means game over, but at least once a game there are battles where victory turns the tides of the conflict on a larger scale than your own survival, even when it's not the final battle itself.

to:

* In the ''Franchise/{{FireEmblem}}'' ''Franchise/FireEmblem'' series, being a series of strategy RPG games all about warfare where death is (mostly) permanent, losing any battle means game over, but at least once a game there are battles where victory turns the tides of the conflict on a larger scale than your own survival, even when it's not the final battle itself.
6th Jul '16 1:53:51 AM LtFedora
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* The Battle of Trafalgar is considered one of the most decisive battles of UsefulNotes/TheNapoleonicWars and the greatest British naval victory of all time. Before the battle, Napoleon had been building up the French and Spanish navies for a potential invasion of England, as you cannot invade the British Isles without going through the Royal Navy. Admiral Horatio Nelson lead the British fleet to victory and though he did not survive the battle, nearly half of the Combined Franco-Spanish Fleet was captured with the British losing no ships of their own. Never again would the French be in a position to challenge the British at sea, leaving them to blockade and strangle off trade bound for the continent.

to:

* The Battle of Trafalgar is considered one of the most decisive battles of UsefulNotes/TheNapoleonicWars and the greatest British naval victory of all time. Before the battle, Napoleon had been building up the French and Spanish navies for a potential invasion of England, as you cannot invade the British Isles without going through the Royal Navy. Admiral Horatio Nelson lead the British fleet to victory and though he did not survive the battle, nearly half of the Combined Franco-Spanish Fleet was captured with the British losing no ships of their own. Never again would the French be in a position to challenge the British at sea, leaving them to blockade and strangle off trade bound for the continent. In addition, the battle essentially assured British naval supremacy for the next century.
17th Jun '16 11:03:17 PM wikkit
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->''[[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K05gPSrsE-c Dun-dun-dun-dun\\

to:

->''[[http://www.->''[[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K05gPSrsE-c com/watch?v=lVwp328Nmps Dun-dun-dun-dun\\
7th Jun '16 4:16:24 PM Doug86
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* In UsefulNotes/WorldWarTwo there are several examples of battles which helped turn the tide in favour of the allies. The battle of Stalingrad was the big one [[note]] The Soviets let the Germans dangerously overextend and totally exhaust themselves trying to take the city while drip-feeding just enough men in to keep them from taking it... before launching a devastating surprise counter-offensive that encircled the entire German siege-force. Although ''Unternehmen Taifun'' had been a defeat, the Soviet counter-offensive that had followed it had not been well-planned enough to make it a ''decisive'' one[[/note]], with 200,000 German combat-troops (and 200,000 Rumanians+Italians) and all their heavy weapons being killed or forced to surrender - this being a full 1/8 of the Germans' entire combat-strength on the Ostfront (1.6 million), and 1/9 of their entire combat-strength. While this may not sound like much, take our word for it that Germany would take at least six months to replace those losses[[note]] Well. 'Six months' at all-out war-production levels, but in 1942 Hitler had refused to fully convert the German economy to a war-footing. It was only ''after'' Stalingrad that this was done. This is because replacing these losses with the 1942-level of production would take ''four years''. [[/note]]and there was no way in hell that the Soviets were going to give them that kind of time (after Stalingrad they went on to liberate the entire Caucasus and eastern Ukraine in four months, killing or taking prisoner another 100,000 German and 100,000 Rumanian+Italian combat troops). Before Stalingrad, some thought the Germans could win the war. After Stalingrad, even the Germans themselves knew that they would lose[[note]] If only because before Taifun/The Winter Counter-Offensive/Stalingrad, the Germans assumed that reality did not apply to them and they would beat absolutely anyone they made war upon. As early as 29/6/1941, the seventh day of the war with the USSR, Joseph Goebbels (German minister of propaganda) noted that "In foreign countries our military situation is, if anything, being judged rather too optimistically, even by our enemies. They think our Wehrmacht capable of the most amazing achievements." This can be seen even today, where it is hard to find any works from the USA which analyse the Wehrmacht for what it really was (deeply flawed institution that could only succeed against weaker opponents) and not the image it projected (flawless, invincible army of genius supermen that only failed because it was [[ZergRush drowned out by endless hordes of mindless inferiors/subhumans]]) [[/note]].

to:

* In UsefulNotes/WorldWarTwo UsefulNotes/WorldWarII there are several examples of battles which helped turn the tide in favour of the allies. The battle of Stalingrad was the big one [[note]] The Soviets let the Germans dangerously overextend and totally exhaust themselves trying to take the city while drip-feeding just enough men in to keep them from taking it... before launching a devastating surprise counter-offensive that encircled the entire German siege-force. Although ''Unternehmen Taifun'' had been a defeat, the Soviet counter-offensive that had followed it had not been well-planned enough to make it a ''decisive'' one[[/note]], with 200,000 German combat-troops (and 200,000 Rumanians+Italians) and all their heavy weapons being killed or forced to surrender - this being a full 1/8 of the Germans' entire combat-strength on the Ostfront (1.6 million), and 1/9 of their entire combat-strength. While this may not sound like much, take our word for it that Germany would take at least six months to replace those losses[[note]] Well. 'Six months' at all-out war-production levels, but in 1942 Hitler had refused to fully convert the German economy to a war-footing. It was only ''after'' Stalingrad that this was done. This is because replacing these losses with the 1942-level of production would take ''four years''. [[/note]]and there was no way in hell that the Soviets were going to give them that kind of time (after Stalingrad they went on to liberate the entire Caucasus and eastern Ukraine in four months, killing or taking prisoner another 100,000 German and 100,000 Rumanian+Italian combat troops). Before Stalingrad, some thought the Germans could win the war. After Stalingrad, even the Germans themselves knew that they would lose[[note]] If only because before Taifun/The Winter Counter-Offensive/Stalingrad, the Germans assumed that reality did not apply to them and they would beat absolutely anyone they made war upon. As early as 29/6/1941, the seventh day of the war with the USSR, Joseph Goebbels (German minister of propaganda) noted that "In foreign countries our military situation is, if anything, being judged rather too optimistically, even by our enemies. They think our Wehrmacht capable of the most amazing achievements." This can be seen even today, where it is hard to find any works from the USA which analyse the Wehrmacht for what it really was (deeply flawed institution that could only succeed against weaker opponents) and not the image it projected (flawless, invincible army of genius supermen that only failed because it was [[ZergRush drowned out by endless hordes of mindless inferiors/subhumans]]) [[/note]].



* The Spring Offensive in early 1918 during UsefulNotes/WorldWarOne. The United States had just entered the war on the side of Britain and France, and Germany knew it would lose the war if the massive industrial resources the Americans possessed were fully brought to bear. On the other hand, the Russians were no longer in the war thanks to the [[RedOctober Brest-Litovsk Treaty]] and so the Eastern Front was no longer a concern, freeing up nearly 50 divisions. Germany had a manpower advantage, but one that wouldn't last once the Americans came in. As a result, this large offensive was one last push to try to end the war on Germany's terms. From late March through mid April, the Germans gained the most ground since the start of the war before trench warfare settled in (Paris was within 50 miles of the front), but couldn't sustain the offensive nor hold it with their depleted reserves. With the Hundred Days' offensive that August, the German lines eventually collapsed and the German Empire capitulated in November.

to:

* The Spring Offensive in early 1918 during UsefulNotes/WorldWarOne.UsefulNotes/WorldWarI. The United States had just entered the war on the side of Britain and France, and Germany knew it would lose the war if the massive industrial resources the Americans possessed were fully brought to bear. On the other hand, the Russians were no longer in the war thanks to the [[RedOctober Brest-Litovsk Treaty]] and so the Eastern Front was no longer a concern, freeing up nearly 50 divisions. Germany had a manpower advantage, but one that wouldn't last once the Americans came in. As a result, this large offensive was one last push to try to end the war on Germany's terms. From late March through mid April, the Germans gained the most ground since the start of the war before trench warfare settled in (Paris was within 50 miles of the front), but couldn't sustain the offensive nor hold it with their depleted reserves. With the Hundred Days' offensive that August, the German lines eventually collapsed and the German Empire capitulated in November.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.DecisiveBattle