History Main / CartesianKarma

* {{Discussed}} in ''[[LawAndTheMultiverse Law and the Multiverse's'']] post on [[http://lawandthemultiverse.com/2010/12/30/mind-control-made-me-do-it/ mind control]]. It turns out that a person under mind control would [[AvertedTrope probably get off easily]].

* {{Discussed}} in ''[[LawAndTheMultiverse Law and the Multiverse's'' post on [[http://lawandthemultiverse.com/2010/12/30/mind-control-made-me-do-it/ mind control]]. It turns out that a person under mind control would [[AvertedTrope probably get off easily]].

So your characters were previously [[BrainwashedandCrazy brainwashed]], betrayed the heroes, went on their own sort of rampage and needed saving to return to their ideals. Luckily, the good guys manage to accomplish this through laborious amounts of screaming, fighting them, and [[ThePowerOfLove friendship power.]] And now that character is back to normal, yay! Everything should be all strawberries and hotcakes, right? I mean, they've clearly come to their senses and are back on the right of things.

Unfortunately in failing that, they still managed to [[KicktheDog kick a few kittens]], and rob the local grocery market. And law enforcement isn't exactly ready to take 'I was brainwashed by a [[BigBad Super-villain]]/[[TheVirus mind-virus]]' as a valid legal alibi. Also anybody 'normal' seeing you in your altered state might be [[ItsaLongStory equally hard to work out]], especially if it's not something you could [[TheMasquerade explain without telling too much]]. The consequences of one's actions simply don't vanish when the mentality causing them does, so even mind-controlled character's have to face some sort of retribution, like it or not. [[KarmaHoudiniWarranty Except when ]][[KarmaHoudini they don't.]]

* In ''Manga/{{Psyren}}'', Tatsuo refuses to return to the past even after being freed from the mind-control induced on him. It's probably a factor that the artifact that was controlling him is still embedded into his body, and he'll die if it runs out of energy.

* Yomi goes through this in ''Anime/GaReiZero'', with her going berserk and only having Kagura to stop her. In the anime it end's tragically.

*In ''Manga/{{Psyren}}'', Tatsuo refuses to return to the past even after being freed from the mind-control induced on him. It's probably a factor that the artifact that was controlling him is still embedded into his body, and he'll die if it runs out of energy.

* Done so in ''Webcomic/{{Homestuck}}'', to a more general sense.Vriska is controlled essentially by her civilization's violent culture and expectations, her own insecurities/ego, self-destructive actions, and the rules of paradox space itself. She 'over-comes' it eventually, but by then it's rather to late for her to change. She even acknowledges she can't change what she's done by any means, but accepts it and any karma facing her because she believes she needs to do the right thing.

** Also the fact that both Mayor Adam West and Meg are apparently unwilling sleeper-agent Russian spies, the former of which has been outed. No consequences of this have come up so far, but it's hard to question it when one ponders how someone as suspicious and incompetent as Mayor Adam [[RuleofFunny could have become Mayor in the first place.]]

More problematic is that the characters aren't [[BrainwashResidue completely back to normal]], and traits from their former self may still linger on even after they've overcome their vices. Can this get any worse? [[ItGotWorse It can]].

-->'''Bara''': ...moldering ancient spells and magical items of great and obnoxious power. More than once have I come upon some mess caused by adventurers only to have them tell me that they couldn’t prevent
-->'''Bara''': an incident’'s occurrence because their mage was "“under the control of an ancient and malevolent artifact of evil".” If you ''must'' come to the High Moor and you ''must'' hunt treasure there, be ''careful''.
-->'''Bara''': Check things for curses ''before'' you pick them up and play with them. Being mind-controlled doesn’t give you free reign to come in and muck up the region I protect.

* Done so in [[Webcomic/MSPaintAdventures Homestuck]],to a more general sense.Vriska is controlled essentially by her civilization's violent culture and expectations, her own insecurities/ego, self-destructive actions, and the rules of paradox space itself. She 'over-comes' it eventually, but by then it's rather to late for her to change. She even acknowledges she can't change what she's done by any means, but accepts it and any karma facing her because she believes she needs to do the right thing.

* Although the top quote is more just a product of [[WesternAnimation/FamilyGuy Peter's usual shenanigans]] than direct mind control, he has been 'changed' temporarily an untold amount of times for the period of single episodes. Despite this, it's subverted as the rest of the cast usually don't see anything periodic about it and never reprimand him beyond the individual change. To date, he has been 'brainwashed' into becoming feminine, 'rich', Jewish, a bully, Mexican, African American, a red neck, and a homosexual, all of which is forgotten about by the next episode.

* In the end of the ''[[Film/TheDarkKnightSaga The Dark Knight]]'', this is played intentionally by the Joker in order to manipulate Dent and get him to commit enough crimes that he 'falls', and has all the blame shifted towards him, thus destroying the cities hope in their law enforcement. The bat is able to avert this only by taking on the blame himself for 2 Face's murders.

Can lead to [[MyGodWhatHaveIDone 'My God What Have I Done]] moments, even [[OutDamnedSpot OutDamnedSpot]] if the character feels perpetually guilty by their previous actions upon being dealt Karma. A heroic or moral enough character, if determined and truly guilty, will probably [[MustMakeAmends try to reconcile]] with their past actions in order to fix their record and deal with the situation.

* In ''{{Naruto}}'', Sasuke's fall and betrayal of konoha has continually been a plot point, with the eponymous character constantly hoping for his return. Obstructing this is not only the fact that he's now an internationally wanted criminal, but also had a central antagonist absorbed into his body at one point, and he had gone nearly blind.[[spoiler: He seems to be getting better, at least in the seeing department.]]
* Yomi goes through this in [[GaReiZero GaReiZero]], with her going beserk and only having Kagura to stop her. In the anime it end's tragically.

* In the [[ChronoCrusade Chrono Crusade]] anime, Joshua after having Chrono's stolen horns removed is able to revert back to his old childish self. The problem is, he becomes essentially 'locked' in that state, perpetually having the mind of his 12 year old pre-horn self. He fairs much better in the manga though.
* Tacitly averted in [[ZatchBell Zatch Bell]] with Koko who was sadistically brainwashed, but is later rescued by Sherry and restored back to her original, kind innocent state. It's a good thing she's not a wanted criminal now or anything and can happily go to college too, especially after (publicly) razing [[DoomedHometown most of her town]] and kidnapping dozens of people. It would have to be inferred that her savior Sherry has some [[HandWave pretty good connections]].
*In ''{{Pysren}}'', Tatsuo refuses to return to the past even after being freed from the mind-control induced on him. It's probably a factor that the artifact that was controlling him is still embedded into his body, and he'll die if it runs out of energy.
* Possibly subverted in [[HunterXHunter HxH]] when one of the side characters get's kidnapped by the ants, brainwashed and altered to be one of them. She's eventually comes to her senses, and as Killua points out, her entrusted one Gon is not one to judge, and it helps the Hunter organization itself isn't one to persecute her just because she's now a chimera ant.

* The realization of this was the most likely factor in [[StarWars Darth Vader's]] [[RedemptionEqualsDeath acceptance of his death]] at the end of the trilogy. He had already had the majority of his body burned off and was basically encased in an armor that well being his life support, was also a symbol for tyranny and fear for people everywhere. It's also hard to imagine the rebels or improvised government not trying or condemning him after.
* In the end of the ''[[TheDarkKnightSaga The Dark Knight]]'', this is played intentionally by the Joker in order to manipulate Dent and get him to commit enough crimes that he 'falls', and has all the blame shifted towards him, thus destroying the cities hope in their law enforcement. The bat is able to avert this only by taking on the blame himself for 2 Face's murders.

* Done so in [[MSPaintAdventures Homestuck]],to a more general sense.Vriska is controlled essentially by her civilization's violent culture and expectations, her own insecurities/ego, self-destructive actions, and the rules of paradox space itself. She 'over-comes' it eventually, but by then it's rather to late for her to change. She even acknowledges she can't change what she's done by any means, but accepts it and any karma facing her because she believes she needs to do the right thing.

* Although the top quote is more just a product of [[FamilyGuy Peter's usual shenanigans]] than direct mind control, he has been 'changed' temporarily an untold amount of times for the period of single episodes. Despite this, it's subverted as the rest of the cast usually don't see anything periodic about it and never reprimand him beyond the individual change. To date, he has been 'brainwashed' into becoming feminine, 'rich', Jewish, a bully, Mexican, African American, a red neck, and a homosexual, all of which is forgotten about by the next episode.
** Also the fact that both Mayor Adam West and Meg are apparently unwilling sleeper-agent Russian spies, the former of which has been outed. No consequences of this have comeup so far, but it's hard to question it when one ponders how someone as suspicious and incompetent as Mayor Adam [[RuleofFunny could have become Mayor in the first place.]]

* The realization of this was the most likely factor in Darth Vader's [[RedemptionEqualsDeath acceptance of his death]] at the end of the trilogy. He had already had the majority of his body burned off and was basically encased in an armor that well being his life support, was also a symbol for tyranny and fear for people everywhere. It's also hard to imagine the rebels or improvised government not trying or condemning him after.

* Although the top quote is more just a product of [[FamilyGuy Peter's usual shenanigans]] than direct mind control, he has been 'changed' temporarily an untold amount of times for the period of single episodes. Despite this, it's subverted as the rest of the cast usually don't see anything periodic about it and never reprimand him beyond the individual change. To date, he has been 'brainwashed' into becoming feminine,'rich',Jewish,a bully,Mexican,African American,a red neck, and a homosexual, all of which is forgotten about by the next episode.

[[quoteright:320:http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/286v8np_2178.jpg]]

[[caption-width-right:320: Redeemable? Maybe... Let's just hope [[TemporaryBlindness he does something about the eye.... thingy, by then]] ]]



->''"No matter what you or I or any of us did, Jack's here now. That's the reality! And if I didn't stop you, it wouldn't have changed the reality for us here. We'd still 8e hiding on this rock, and he'd still 8e out there, sniffing around for us. He wouldn't just disappear! That's not how this (time) stuff works."''
-->-- "'''Vriska Serket''', ''Homestuck''"

->'''Angela''': ''Griffin! You blew up a children's hospital. You're going to jail!''
->'''Peter''': ''What?!''
->'''Angela''': ''What, you think everybody just forgot about that? There was an investigation, fingerprints, forensic reports. 19 children died Peter and the FBI knows it was you!''
-->-- ''WesternAnimation/FamilyGuy'', "Tales of a Third Grade Nothing"

->''Angela: Griffin! You blew up a children's hospital. You're going to jail!
->Peter: What?!
->Angela: What, you think everybody just forgot about that? There was an investigation, fingerprints, forensic reports. 19 children died Peter and the FBI knows it was you!''
-->-- [[FamilyGuy Family Guy, Tales of a Third Grade Nothing ]]

* The realization of this was the most likely factor in Darth Vader's [[RedemptionEqualsDeath acceptance of his death]] at the end of the trilogy. He had already had the majority of his body burned off and was basically encased in an armor that well being his life support, was also a symbol for tyranny and fear for people everywhere. It's also hard to imagine the rebels or improvised government not trialing or condemning him after.

Can lead to [[MyGodWhatHaveIDone 'My God What Have I Done]] moments, even [[OutDamnedSpot OutDamnedSpot]] if the character feels perpetually guilty by their previous actions upon being dealt Karma. A heroic or moral enough character, if determined and truly guilty, will probably [[MustMakeAmends try too reconcile]] with their past actions in order to fix their record and deal with the situation.

Can lead to [[MyGodWhatHaveIDone 'My God What Have I Done]] moments, even [[OutDamnedSpot OurDamnedSpot]] if the character feels perpetually guilty by their previous actions upon being dealt Karma. A heroic or moral enough character, if determined and truly guilty, will probably [[MustMakeAmends try too reconcile]] with their past actions in order to fix their record and deal with the situation.

So your characters were previously [[BrainwashedandCrazy brainwashed]], betrayed the heroes, went on their own sort of rampage and needed saving to return to their ideals. Luckily, the good guys manage to accomplish this through laborious amounts of screaming,fighting them, and [[ThePowerOfLove friendship power.]] And now that character is back to normal, yay! Everything should be all strawberries and hotcakes right? I mean, they've clearly come to their senses and are back on the right of things.

Well unfortunately not always. There are always some possible problems characters regaining either their focus that have to be faced.

Simple problems might be that [[ThisIsUnforgivable relationships are strained]], as other people might not be quite so eager to forget the character's actions off the bat. A character who has crossed the [[MoralEventHorizon moral horizon line]] obviously won't as be easily redeemed, even with [[EasilyForgiven the all forgiving]] [[ThePowerofFriendship power of friendship.]]
More problematic is that the character's aren't [[BrainwashResidue completely back to normal]],
and traits from their former self may still linger on even after they've overcome their vices. Can this get any worse? [[ItGotWorse It can]].

-->-- "'''Vriska Serket''',''Homestuck''"

->''Angela: Griffin! You blew up a childrens hospital. You're going to jail!

-->-- [[FamilyGuy Family Guy,Tales of a Third Grade Nothing ]]



So your characters were previously [[BrainwashedandCrazy brainwashed]], betrayed the heros, went on their own sort of rampage and needed saving to return to their ideals. Luckily, the good guys manage to accomplish this through laborious amounts of screaming,fighting them, and [[ThePowerOfLove friendship power.]] And now that character is back to normal, yay! Everything should be all strawberries and hotcakes right? I mean, they've clearly come to their senses and are back on the right of things.

* In Naruto, Sasuke's fall and betrayal of konoha has continually been a plot point, with the titular character constantly hoping for his return. Obstructing this is not only the fact that he's now an internationally wanted criminal, but also had a central antagonist absorbed into his body at one point, and he had gone nearly blind.[[spoiler: He seems to be getting better, at least in the seeing department.]]

*In Pysren, Tatsuo refuses to return to the past even after being freed from the mind-control induced on him. It's probably a factor that the artifact that was controlling him is still embedded into his body, and he'll die if it runs out of energy.

* In the end of the [[TheDarkKnightSaga 2nd Dark Knight Movie]], this is played intentionally by the Joker in order to manipulate Dent and get him to commit enough crimes that he 'falls', and has all the blame shifted towards him, thus destroying the cities hope in their law enforcement. The bat is able to avert this only by taking on the blame himself for 2 Face's murders.

So you're characters were previously [[BrainwashedandCrazy brainwashed]], betrayed the heros, went on their own sort of rampage and needed saving to return to their ideals. Luckily, the good guys manage to accomplish this through laborious amounts of screaming,fighting them, and [[ThePowerOfLove friendship power.]] And now that character is back to normal, yay! Everything should be all strawberries and hotcakes right? I mean, they've clearly come to their senses and are back on the right of things.

Can lead to [[MyGodWhatHaveIDone 'My God What Have I Done]] moments, even [[OutDamnedSpot OurDamnedSpot]] if the character feel perpetually guilty by their previous actions upon being dealt Karma. A heroic or moral enough character, if determined and truly guilty, will probably [[MustMakeAmends try too reconcile]] with their past actions in order to fix their record and deal with the situation.

Can lead to [[MyGodWhatHaveIDone 'My God What Have I Done]] moments, even [[OutDamnedSpot our OurDamnedSpot]] if the character feel perpetually guilty by their previous actions upon being dealt Karma. A heroic or moral enough character, if determined and truly guilty, will probably [[MustMakeAmends try too reconcile]] with their past actions in order to fix their record and deal with the situation.

** Also it's pivotal point played straight with Gon. Blinded by his rage he activated a technique that allowed him to rapidly age/grow and defeat an enemy vastly superior to himself. Unfortunately after calming down, he's mutated and put himself on the brink of death.
** Also his teacher and role-model Kaito, who's is made into a living rag doll for the ants to manipulate, and Gon desperately wishes to bring him back. The realization that [[spoiler:he can't do so, and Kaito truly is 'dead' is what pushes Gon into the transformation alluded to above.]]

Well unfortunately not always. There are always some possible problems characters regaining either their sanity or their redemption have to face.