History Main / BlackAndGrayMorality

28th Dec '17 3:19:52 AM Chabal2
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* ''ComicBook/BlackMoonChronicles'': Wismerhill is and friends are primarily self-interested warlords, but the BigBad Haazheel Thorn is an EvilSorcerer and OmnicidalManiac.

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* ''ComicBook/BlackMoonChronicles'': Wismerhill is and friends are primarily self-interested warlords, warlords (starting out as basically an all-Chaotic-something D&D party), but the BigBad Haazheel Thorn (who they worked for during most of the series) is an EvilSorcerer and OmnicidalManiac.
25th Nov '17 6:36:16 PM DarkPhoenix94
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* ''Fanfic/ChildOfTheStorm'' plays with this trope, having originally opted for BlackAndWhiteMorality with a touch of MoralMyopia and general EarlyInstalmentWeirdness that the author has since tried to iron out:

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* ''Fanfic/ChildOfTheStorm'' plays with this trope, having originally opted for BlackAndWhiteMorality with a touch of MoralMyopia and general EarlyInstalmentWeirdness EarlyInstallmentWeirdness that the author has since tried to iron out:



*** However, they're ''much'' more lax about those rules, and get much darker, if things get personal. And as Loki spells out very politely in the sequel, those rules only apply while they're 'on-duty'. When they're ''off'', so is TheMoralityChain, and they tend to be morally much closer to the similarly ReformedButNotTamed Magneto. Even Wanda Maximoff, who rejects everything her father was, is, if pushed, capable of doing things like ''[[BodyHorror dissolving]]'' [[spoiler: Sinister]]. [[KickTheSonOfABitch Granted, he deserved it]], and [[SendInTheClones it didn't keep him down long]], but even still... And with examples such as [[spoiler: Bucky]] and their concealment of just who he used to be has more than a faint whiff of hypocrisy about it.

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*** However, they're ''much'' more lax about those rules, and get much darker, if things get personal. And as Loki spells out very politely in the sequel, those rules only apply while they're 'on-duty'. When they're ''off'', so is TheMoralityChain, the MoralityChain, and they tend to be morally much closer to the similarly ReformedButNotTamed Magneto. Even Wanda Maximoff, who rejects everything her father was, is, if pushed, capable of doing things like ''[[BodyHorror dissolving]]'' [[spoiler: Sinister]]. [[KickTheSonOfABitch Granted, he deserved it]], and [[SendInTheClones it didn't keep him down long]], but even still... And with examples such as [[spoiler: Bucky]] Bucky and their concealment of just who he used to be has more than a faint whiff of hypocrisy about it.
22nd Nov '17 1:56:36 PM ACW
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** The villains are pretty solidly villainous, running the gamut from your standard CompleteMonster to those who are reluctantly evil at best - the Winter Soldier is shown to be a brainwashed victim, while [[spoiler: the Red Hood]] is a textbook case of someone who fell under the wrong influence, needing only to have his eyes opened and be offered another option.

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** The villains are pretty solidly villainous, running the gamut from your standard CompleteMonster villain to those who are reluctantly evil at best - the Winter Soldier is shown to be a brainwashed victim, while [[spoiler: the Red Hood]] is a textbook case of someone who fell under the wrong influence, needing only to have his eyes opened and be offered another option.
6th Nov '17 10:43:41 AM DarkPhoenix94
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* ''Fanfic/ChildOfTheStorm'' plays with this trope, having originally opted for BlackAndWhiteMorality with a touch of MoralMyopia and general EarlyInstalmentWeirdness that the author has since tried to iron out.

to:

* ''Fanfic/ChildOfTheStorm'' plays with this trope, having originally opted for BlackAndWhiteMorality with a touch of MoralMyopia and general EarlyInstalmentWeirdness that the author has since tried to iron out. out:



*** However, they're ''much'' more lax about those rules, and get much darker, if things get personal. And as Loki spells out very politely in the sequel, those rules only apply while they're 'on-duty'. When they're ''off'', so is TheMoralityChain, and they tend to be morally much closer to the similarly ReformedButNotTamed Magneto. Even Wanda Maximoff, who rejects everything her father was, is, if pushed, capable of doing things like ''[[BodyHorror dissolving]]'' [[spoiler: Sinister]]. [[KickTheSonOfABitch Granted, he deserved it]], and [[SendInTheClones it didn't keep him down long]], but even still...

to:

*** However, they're ''much'' more lax about those rules, and get much darker, if things get personal. And as Loki spells out very politely in the sequel, those rules only apply while they're 'on-duty'. When they're ''off'', so is TheMoralityChain, and they tend to be morally much closer to the similarly ReformedButNotTamed Magneto. Even Wanda Maximoff, who rejects everything her father was, is, if pushed, capable of doing things like ''[[BodyHorror dissolving]]'' [[spoiler: Sinister]]. [[KickTheSonOfABitch Granted, he deserved it]], and [[SendInTheClones it didn't keep him down long]], but even still... And with examples such as [[spoiler: Bucky]] and their concealment of just who he used to be has more than a faint whiff of hypocrisy about it.



** As time goes by, the Avengers' attitude starts to rub off on Harry, especially with all he's put through. The narration that this is ''not'' a good thing.

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** As time goes by, the Avengers' attitude starts to rub off on Harry, especially with all he's put through. The narration all but states that this is ''not'' a good thing.
6th Nov '17 10:41:48 AM DarkPhoenix94
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* ''Fanfic/ChildOfTheStorm'' plays with this trope, having originally opted for BlackAndWhiteMorality with a touch of MoralMyopia and general EarlyInstalmentWeirdness that the author has since tried to iron out.
** The villains are pretty solidly villainous, running the gamut from your standard CompleteMonster to those who are reluctantly evil at best - the Winter Soldier is shown to be a brainwashed victim, while [[spoiler: the Red Hood]] is a textbook case of someone who fell under the wrong influence, needing only to have his eyes opened and be offered another option.
** The heroes, the Avengers primarily, are the good guys, this is a team with [[MagnificentBitch Natasha]], [[ProfessionalKiller Clint]], and [[ReformedButNotTamed Loki]] on the roster. [[BewareTheNiceOnes Thor, Tony, and Bruce aren't people to cross, either.]] Most of them are spies or soldiers of some sort, most have a DarkAndTroubledPast, most of them [[TheAtoner have red in their ledger and want to rub it out]], and [[ReformedButNotTamed they still]] [[BadGuysDoTheDirtyWork have]] [[ProfessionalKiller the]] [[TortureTechnician skills]] [[MagnificentBastard to]] [[ManipulativeBastard match.]] Even Steve, whose status as TheParagon is both gleefully lampshaded for comedy value and treated with respect, [[GoodIsNotSoft is capable of being ruthless.]] The team as a whole has [[MoralityChain rules of engagement]], with Thor explicitly noting [[ThouShaltNotKill that he normally sticks to non-lethal tactics on Avengers duty,]] while those with the dark pasts usually make their reputations work for them rather than getting nasty, making them a fairly light shade of grey.
*** However, they're ''much'' more lax about those rules, and get much darker, if things get personal. And as Loki spells out very politely in the sequel, those rules only apply while they're 'on-duty'. When they're ''off'', so is TheMoralityChain, and they tend to be morally much closer to the similarly ReformedButNotTamed Magneto. Even Wanda Maximoff, who rejects everything her father was, is, if pushed, capable of doing things like ''[[BodyHorror dissolving]]'' [[spoiler: Sinister]]. [[KickTheSonOfABitch Granted, he deserved it]], and [[SendInTheClones it didn't keep him down long]], but even still...
** It also speaks volumes that the setting's BigGood, Doctor Strange, is not entirely sane, and a [[ManipulativeBastard ruthlessly manipulative]] [[MagnificentBastard schemer]] who's an AntiHero and WellIntentionedExtremist desperately trying to [[TheAtoner make up for]] [[MyGreatestFailure his greatest failure on his good days]] while [[StepfordSnarker covering it in]] [[StepfordSmiler a mask of snark and charm]], and [[TheUnfettered an unfettered]] and possibly insane AntiVillain on his bad ones, but even at his worst is in opposition to the likes of [[GodOfEvil Chthon]], [[EldritchAbomination Shuma-Gorath]], [[HumanoidAbomination Gravemoss]], [[GodEmperor Surtur]], [[MultiversalConqueror Dormammu]], and [[ArchEnemy above all,]] [[BigBad Thanos]].
** As time goes by, the Avengers' attitude starts to rub off on Harry, especially with all he's put through. The narration that this is ''not'' a good thing.
** That said, the narration also makes the point that there ''are'' genuinely good and kind people in the world - chief examples being [[KnightInShiningArmour Sir Michael Carpenter,]] [[TheHero Clark Kent,]] [[CoolBigSis Jean]] [[NiceGirl Grey]] [[FieryRedhead (even with her temper)]], and even Harry, once he shakes off the darkness from what he's been through. And the story is ultimately optimistic, with the emphasis that people can and ''do'' choose to do the right thing.
4th Nov '17 5:51:29 PM thatother1dude
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* While the main cast of ''WesternAnimation/TransformersAnimated'' seems to be mostly good, the overall Autobot/Decepticon conflict is frequently shown in this light: Ultra Magnus is OK with lying to the public if he thinks it will protect the peace, someone like [[{{Jerkass}} Sentinel Prime]] is a [[TheNeidermeyer a high ranking officer]] while [[TheHero Optimus]] is [[AlmightyJanitor a space bridge repairman]], and they won the great war by [[spoiler:creating an Autobot as a superweapon and making him deliberately unintelligent so he doesn't question his own destructive actions]]. Meanwhile the Decepticons are [[AliensAreBastards universally hostile to all other forms of life]], are more than happy to manipulate potential allies and scrap them when they finish serving their purpose, and field test [=WMDs=] in populated civilian territories out of petty revenge.

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* While the main cast of ''WesternAnimation/TransformersAnimated'' seems to be mostly good, the overall Autobot/Decepticon conflict is frequently shown in this light: Ultra Magnus is OK with lying to the public if he thinks it will protect the peace, someone like [[{{Jerkass}} Sentinel Prime]] is a [[TheNeidermeyer a high ranking officer]] while [[TheHero Optimus]] is [[AlmightyJanitor a space bridge repairman]], and they won the great war by [[spoiler:creating an Autobot as a superweapon and making him deliberately unintelligent so he doesn't question his own destructive actions]]. Meanwhile the Decepticons are [[AliensAreBastards [[AbsoluteXenophobe universally hostile to all other forms of life]], are more than happy to manipulate potential allies and scrap them when they finish serving their purpose, and field test [=WMDs=] in populated civilian territories out of petty revenge.
22nd Oct '17 5:41:40 PM NervousShark
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* In ''Fanfic/EventHorizonStormOfMagic'', the Company is an amoral and ruthless MegaCorp that thinks nothing of bribing politicians and judges to look the other way, encouraging war to break out in the [[Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire Seven Kingdoms]] in order to sell weapons to both the Starks and Lannisters, and blackmailing or even murdering anyone who gets in the way of what they want. They're openly imperialistic, dismissing the inhabitants of all the worlds as barbarian savages, [[AnOfferYouCantRefuse "purchasing"]] their land, and exploiting them for their own profit. Everyone from the [[UnitedNationsIsASuperpower UN]] to the natives of the worlds recognizes this. However, they also bring modern technology that vastly improves the lives of the natives (e.g. medicines, fertilizer, [[CoolTrain trains]]), introduce modern values and ideas (e.g. human rights and equality, public education, finance), and generally try to uplift the natives to a higher standard of living. Also, when you consider that the Company's opponents are some [[{{Understatement}} rather nasty folks]] like the White Walkers, [[Literature/TheLordOfTheRings Mordor]], and [[TabletopGame/{{Warhammer}} Chaos]], suddenly they don't seem so bad.

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* In ''Fanfic/EventHorizonStormOfMagic'', the Company is an amoral and ruthless MegaCorp that thinks nothing of bribing politicians and judges to look the other way, encouraging war to break out in the [[Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire Seven Kingdoms]] in order to sell weapons to both the Starks and Lannisters, and blackmailing or even murdering anyone who gets in the way of what they want. They're openly imperialistic, dismissing the inhabitants of all the worlds as barbarian savages, [[AnOfferYouCantRefuse "purchasing"]] their land, and exploiting them for their own profit. Everyone from the [[UnitedNationsIsASuperpower UN]] to the natives of the worlds recognizes this. However, they also bring modern technology that vastly improves the lives of the natives (e.g. medicines, fertilizer, [[CoolTrain trains]]), introduce modern values and ideas (e.g. human rights and equality, public education, finance), and generally try to uplift the natives to a higher standard of living. Also, when you consider that the Company's opponents are some [[{{Understatement}} rather nasty folks]] folks like the White Walkers, [[Literature/TheLordOfTheRings Mordor]], and [[TabletopGame/{{Warhammer}} Chaos]], suddenly they don't seem so bad.
11th Sep '17 2:45:28 PM BatmanKalEl
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* ''WesternAnimation/TheFairlyOddParents''. Sure the good guys are often {{Jerkass}}es who make other's lives a living hell, but the villains are outright [[CardCarryingVillain Card-Carrying Villains]] out to take over the world.

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* ''WesternAnimation/TheFairlyOddParents''. Sure the good guys protagonists are often {{Jerkass}}es who make other's lives a living hell, but the villains antagonists are outright [[CardCarryingVillain Card-Carrying Villains]] out to take over the world.
11th Sep '17 2:43:38 PM BatmanKalEl
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* ''WesternAnimation/TheFairlyOddParents''. Sure the good guys are often {{Jerkass}}es who make other's lives a living hell, but the villains are outright {{Card Carrying Villain}}s out to take over the world.

to:

* ''WesternAnimation/TheFairlyOddParents''. Sure the good guys are often {{Jerkass}}es who make other's lives a living hell, but the villains are outright {{Card Carrying Villain}}s [[CardCarryingVillain Card-Carrying Villains]] out to take over the world.
24th Aug '17 7:52:58 PM Luigifan
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If so, its a classic case of Black and Gray Morality.

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If so, its it's a classic case of Black and Gray Morality.



See also ShadesOfConflict, GreyAndGrayMorality, BlackAndWhiteMorality, CrapsackWorld, SlidingScaleOfIdealismVsCynicism. The inverse is ButNotTooEvil. Contrast with WhiteAndGreyMorality, where everyone has some nobility to them, and DesignatedHero, which is what happens when the story portrays a side as White when the audience see them as Gray (or Black).

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See also ShadesOfConflict, GreyAndGrayMorality, BlackAndWhiteMorality, CrapsackWorld, SlidingScaleOfIdealismVsCynicism. The inverse is ButNotTooEvil. Contrast with WhiteAndGreyMorality, where everyone has some nobility to them, and DesignatedHero, which is what happens when the story portrays a side as White when the audience see sees them as Gray (or Black).



** ''Comicbook/NemesisTheWarlock'' verges on BlackAndBlackMorality. BigBad Torquemada, leader of the human race (in the ''Nemesis'' universe, something like a cross between the heretic-burning medieval Catholic church turned UpToEleven and the Nazis), is a psychotic genocidal religious fascist god-dictator pledged to exterminate all non-human life--but Nemesis himself, who's ''essentially Satan'', has done things like openly lust for genocide right back at humanity and, at his worst, [[WouldHurtAChild intentionally kill a school bus full of children]]. Afterwards, he doesn't even seem to understand why it was a bad thing to do. Meanwhile, Nemesis' uncle Baal has a hobby of vivisecting humans and performing Mengele-ish experiments on them and his son Thoth hates and wants to destroy everything, including his father. Nemesis' allies the ComicBook/ABCWarriors are also extremely morally shady, given they've conducted massacres and frequently display genocidal urges towards humanity as well.
** DependingOnTheWriter, ''ComicBook/JudgeDredd''. He can be written in many different ways depending on the tone of the story (dramatic, comedic, horrific, etc.), but some of Dredd's actions can be very questionable. At his root he's a KnightTemplar JudgeJuryAndExecutioner, so he can go from heroically taking down violent criminals to ruthlessly crushing democratic protestors without shifting gear. And his enemies have included a genius SerialKiller, an apocalyptic PresidentEvil, a warmongering Soviet military junta, a [[TheCaligula deranged head judge]] who wanted to execute the whole city, and an undead OmnicidalManiac.

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** ''Comicbook/NemesisTheWarlock'' verges on BlackAndBlackMorality. BigBad Torquemada, leader of the human race (in the ''Nemesis'' universe, something like a cross between the heretic-burning medieval Catholic church turned UpToEleven and the Nazis), is a psychotic genocidal religious fascist god-dictator pledged to exterminate all non-human life--but life -- but Nemesis himself, who's ''essentially Satan'', has done things like openly lust for genocide right back at humanity and, at his worst, [[WouldHurtAChild intentionally kill a school bus full of children]]. Afterwards, he doesn't even seem to understand why it was a bad thing to do. Meanwhile, Nemesis' uncle Baal has a hobby of vivisecting humans and performing Mengele-ish experiments on them and his son Thoth hates and wants to destroy everything, including his father. Nemesis' allies allies, the ComicBook/ABCWarriors ComicBook/ABCWarriors, are also extremely morally shady, given they've conducted massacres and frequently display genocidal urges towards humanity as well.
** DependingOnTheWriter, ''ComicBook/JudgeDredd''. He can be written in many different ways depending on the tone of the story (dramatic, comedic, horrific, etc.), but some of Dredd's actions can be very questionable. At his root root, he's a KnightTemplar JudgeJuryAndExecutioner, so he can go from heroically taking down violent criminals to ruthlessly crushing democratic protestors without shifting gear. And his enemies have included a genius SerialKiller, an apocalyptic PresidentEvil, a warmongering Soviet military junta, a [[TheCaligula deranged head judge]] who wanted to execute the whole city, and an undead OmnicidalManiac.



* ''Comicbook/{{Lucifer}}'' is like this, but oddly, not ''ComicBook/TheSandman'' which was more Gray and Gray. The [[VillainProtagonist main character]] is, ya know, ''{{Satan}}'', who is caught between TheLegionsOfHell and the angels of heaven, who soon turn out not to be very nice either.

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* ''Comicbook/{{Lucifer}}'' is like this, but oddly, not ''ComicBook/TheSandman'' ''ComicBook/TheSandman'', which was more Gray and Gray. The [[VillainProtagonist main character]] is, ya know, ''{{Satan}}'', who is caught between TheLegionsOfHell and the angels of heaven, who soon turn out not to be very nice either.



** In fact, most modern comic writers fall into this category. Warren Ellis, Grant Morrison, and Alan Moore just to name a few, often have morally ambigious protagonists.

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** In fact, most modern comic writers fall into this category. Warren Ellis, Grant Morrison, and Alan Moore just (just to name a few, few) often have morally ambigious protagonists.



** There's some hope in the comic too, but in a rather absolutist way--V leaves the people of England a choice between taking responsibility and pulling together voluntarily, or starving.

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** There's some hope in the comic too, but in a rather absolutist way--V way -- V leaves the people of England a choice between taking responsibility and pulling together voluntarily, or starving.
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