History Main / BlackAndGrayMorality

12th Jun '16 9:04:48 PM PaulA
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* Creator/ChristopherMarlowe's ''The Jew of Malta'' is about a Jewish merchant who seeks vengeance against the corrupt government of Malta because they essentially stole all his property. We might feel sympathy for Barabas's victims if it weren't for the fact that most are Machiavellian opportunists or hypocrites. The only purely good characters in the play are Barabas' daughter and her fiancé. [[spoiler:Things don't end well for them]].

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* Creator/ChristopherMarlowe's ''The Jew of Malta'' ''Theatre/TheJewOfMalta'' is about a Jewish merchant who seeks vengeance against the corrupt government of Malta because they essentially stole all his property. We might feel sympathy for Barabas's victims if it weren't for the fact that most are Machiavellian opportunists or hypocrites. The only purely good characters in the play are Barabas' daughter and her fiancé. [[spoiler:Things don't end well for them]].
16th May '16 3:05:24 PM Morgenthaler
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** DependingOnTheWriter, ''ComicBook/JudgeDredd''. He can be written in many different ways depending on the tone of story (dramatic, comedic, horrific, etc.), but some of Dredd's actions can be very questionable. At his root he's a KnightTemplar JudgeJuryAndExecutioner, so he can go from heroically taking down violent criminals to ruthlessly crushing democratic protestors without shifting gear. And his enemies have included a genius SerialKiller, an apocalyptic PresidentEvil, a warmongering Soviet military junta, a [[TheCaligula deranged head judge]] who wanted to execute the whole city, and an undead OmnicidalManiac.

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** DependingOnTheWriter, ''ComicBook/JudgeDredd''. He can be written in many different ways depending on the tone of the story (dramatic, comedic, horrific, etc.), but some of Dredd's actions can be very questionable. At his root he's a KnightTemplar JudgeJuryAndExecutioner, so he can go from heroically taking down violent criminals to ruthlessly crushing democratic protestors without shifting gear. And his enemies have included a genius SerialKiller, an apocalyptic PresidentEvil, a warmongering Soviet military junta, a [[TheCaligula deranged head judge]] who wanted to execute the whole city, and an undead OmnicidalManiac.
16th May '16 3:05:00 PM Morgenthaler
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** DependingOnTheWriter, ''ComicBook/JudgeDredd''. Some of Dredd's actions can be very questionable. And his enemies have included a genius SerialKiller, an apocalyptic PresidentEvil, a warmongering Soviet military junta, a [[TheCaligula deranged head judge]] who wanted to execute the whole city, and an undead OmnicidalManiac.

to:

** DependingOnTheWriter, ''ComicBook/JudgeDredd''. Some He can be written in many different ways depending on the tone of story (dramatic, comedic, horrific, etc.), but some of Dredd's actions can be very questionable.questionable. At his root he's a KnightTemplar JudgeJuryAndExecutioner, so he can go from heroically taking down violent criminals to ruthlessly crushing democratic protestors without shifting gear. And his enemies have included a genius SerialKiller, an apocalyptic PresidentEvil, a warmongering Soviet military junta, a [[TheCaligula deranged head judge]] who wanted to execute the whole city, and an undead OmnicidalManiac.
16th May '16 2:55:50 PM Morgenthaler
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* ''Comicbook/NemesisTheWarlock'', as with most of the ''2000AD'' stable, verges on BlackAndBlackMorality. BigBad Torquemada, leader of the human race (in the ''Nemesis'' universe, something like a cross between the heretic-burning medieval Catholic church turned UpToEleven and the Nazis), is a psychotic genocidal religious fascist god-dictator pledged to exterminate all non-human life--but Nemesis himself, who's ''essentially Satan'', has done things like openly lust for genocide right back at humanity and, at his worst, [[WouldHurtAChild intentionally kill a school bus full of children]]. Afterwards, he doesn't even seem to understand why it was a bad thing to do. Meanwhile, Nemesis' uncle Baal has a hobby of vivisecting humans and performing Mengele-ish experiments on them and his son Thoth hates and wants to destroy everything, including his father. Nemesis' allies the ComicBook/ABCWarriors are also extremely morally shady, given they've conducted massacres and frequently display genocidal urges towards humanity as well.

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* ''Comicbook/NemesisTheWarlock'', as with most of the ''2000AD'' stable, ''ComicBook/TwoThousandAD'' in general tends towards dark heroes facing even worse villains.
** ''Comicbook/NemesisTheWarlock''
verges on BlackAndBlackMorality. BigBad Torquemada, leader of the human race (in the ''Nemesis'' universe, something like a cross between the heretic-burning medieval Catholic church turned UpToEleven and the Nazis), is a psychotic genocidal religious fascist god-dictator pledged to exterminate all non-human life--but Nemesis himself, who's ''essentially Satan'', has done things like openly lust for genocide right back at humanity and, at his worst, [[WouldHurtAChild intentionally kill a school bus full of children]]. Afterwards, he doesn't even seem to understand why it was a bad thing to do. Meanwhile, Nemesis' uncle Baal has a hobby of vivisecting humans and performing Mengele-ish experiments on them and his son Thoth hates and wants to destroy everything, including his father. Nemesis' allies the ComicBook/ABCWarriors are also extremely morally shady, given they've conducted massacres and frequently display genocidal urges towards humanity as well.well.
** DependingOnTheWriter, ''ComicBook/JudgeDredd''. Some of Dredd's actions can be very questionable. And his enemies have included a genius SerialKiller, an apocalyptic PresidentEvil, a warmongering Soviet military junta, a [[TheCaligula deranged head judge]] who wanted to execute the whole city, and an undead OmnicidalManiac.
** ''ComicBook/{{Shakara}}'': Shakara is a remorseless killing machine who has taken billions of lives in his [[RoaringRampageOfRevenge never-ending quest for vengeance]], but his enemies are an alliance of AlwaysChaoticEvil species led by an OmnicidalManiac.



* DependingOnTheWriter, ''ComicBook/JudgeDredd''. Some of Dredd's actions can be very questionable. And his enemies have included a genius SerialKiller, an apocalyptic PresidentEvil, a warmongering Soviet military junta, a [[TheCaligula deranged head judge]] who wanted to execute the whole city, and an undead OmnicidalManiac.
* ''[[ComicBook/ThreeHundred 300]]'' has the UnreliableNarrator describing the Spartans as "the ultimate good guys"... who are just as [[AxeCrazy insane]] and [[BloodKnight bloodthirsty]] as their Persian enemies, who are only worse for being a gigantic horde bent on destroying and enslaving everyone on their path.

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* DependingOnTheWriter, ''ComicBook/JudgeDredd''. Some of Dredd's actions can be very questionable. And his enemies have included a genius SerialKiller, an apocalyptic PresidentEvil, a warmongering Soviet military junta, a [[TheCaligula deranged head judge]] who wanted to execute the whole city, and an undead OmnicidalManiac.
* ''[[ComicBook/ThreeHundred 300]]''
''ComicBook/ThreeHundred'' has the UnreliableNarrator describing the Spartans as "the ultimate good guys"... who are just as [[AxeCrazy insane]] and [[BloodKnight bloodthirsty]] as their Persian enemies, who are only worse for being a gigantic horde bent on destroying and enslaving everyone on their path.
6th May '16 11:15:47 PM nombretomado
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* GeneratorRex: Sure, E.V.O.s will cause untold mayhem if not for Providence. But Providence is headed by White Knight, who treats his own men as expendable and clearly has some FantasticRacism going. He's a dick to the few good E.V.O.s and absolutely ruthless about exterminating the bad ones. Of course, curing them doesn't always work, and containing them isn't always feasible, so he's not entirely without ground.

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* GeneratorRex: ''WesternAnimation/GeneratorRex'': Sure, E.V.O.s will cause untold mayhem if not for Providence. But Providence is headed by White Knight, who treats his own men as expendable and clearly has some FantasticRacism going. He's a dick to the few good E.V.O.s and absolutely ruthless about exterminating the bad ones. Of course, curing them doesn't always work, and containing them isn't always feasible, so he's not entirely without ground.
22nd Apr '16 1:18:54 AM TheNerevarine
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* This trope is flipped on its head in ''ComicBook/{{Birthright}}'': in one hand you have the decisively ObviouslyEvil [[EvilOverlord God-King Lore]], who rules the world of Terrenos with iron fist and has designs to merge it with Earth. Against him are five mages that have [[BarrierMaiden set themselves up as barriers to prevent him from conquering Earth]], but seldom are heroic or selfless: at best, they are reclusive or selfish (one of them was more interested in preserving her wealth and privilege) and and at worse, exceedingly brutal [[KnightTemplar Knights Templars]] who will ''kill'' innocents without hesitation if it serves their ends. What makes this trope unusual is that [[VillainProtagonist the main protagonist]] is a AntiVillain serving Lore (the biggest evil in the conflict who wants to cause chaos and destruction) as his enforcer instead of fighting against him, making the mages (who want at least want to preserve the world) ''very, very loose'' [[HeroAntagonist hero antagonists]].
20th Apr '16 7:46:09 AM EricNeoMatrix
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* ''FanFic/SonicXDarkChaos'' pretty much runs entirely on this. On one side you have a slave-holding, repressive, reactionary [[TheEmpire empire]] run by TheLegionsOfHell -- that [[BreadAndCircuses nonetheless does many]] [[ReasonableAuthorityFigure good things for its people]]. On the other side are the Angels, who are TheRevolutionWillNotBeCivilized ''at best''. Both sides are controlled by JerkassGods, one of them a [[ManipulativeBastard scheming]] [[TheChessmaster chessmaster]], the other a [[TheFundamentalist fundamentalist]] AxCrazy sociopath. And then there's the malevolent EldritchAbomination, the genocidal two-tailed android fox (and his legion of cannibalistic android clones), omnicidal AbusivePrecursors, the Metarex, and of course [[MadScientist Dr. Eggman]] just to make things even more shitty. Even several of the lighter characters are quite grey--Eric and his friends eventually resort to piracy in order to replenish their supplies. Several of the saner Angel leaders aren't clean either; Jesus holds some [[UnfortunateImplications very]]...[[DeliberateValuesDissonance questionable]] views on homosexuals, though he's depicted more sympathetically than his fellow Angels.
** Thanks to the [[RonTheDeathEater rewrite's version of Cosmo's mother Hertia]], the Metarex War also becomes this trope with Hertia being the "gray" in the overall EvilVersusEvil conflict.

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* ''FanFic/SonicXDarkChaos'' pretty much runs entirely on this. On one side you have a slave-holding, repressive, reactionary [[TheEmpire empire]] run by TheLegionsOfHell -- that [[BreadAndCircuses nonetheless does many]] [[ReasonableAuthorityFigure good things for its people]]. On the other side are the Angels, who are TheRevolutionWillNotBeCivilized ''at best''. Both sides are controlled by JerkassGods, one of them And GodAndSatanAreBothJerks, "Satan" being a [[ManipulativeBastard scheming]] [[TheChessmaster chessmaster]], the other and "God" being a [[TheFundamentalist fundamentalist]] AxCrazy sociopath. And then there's the malevolent EldritchAbomination, the genocidal two-tailed android fox (and his legion of cannibalistic android clones), omnicidal AbusivePrecursors, the Metarex, and of course [[MadScientist Dr. Eggman]] just to make things even more shitty. Even several of the lighter characters are quite grey--Eric and his friends eventually resort to piracy in order to replenish their supplies. Several of the saner Angel leaders aren't clean either; Jesus holds some [[UnfortunateImplications very]]...[[DeliberateValuesDissonance questionable]] views on homosexuals, though he's depicted more sympathetically than his fellow Angels.
Angels.
** Thanks Also, thanks to the [[RonTheDeathEater rewrite's version of Cosmo's mother Hertia]], the Metarex War also becomes this trope with Hertia being the "gray" in the overall EvilVersusEvil conflict.
19th Apr '16 6:45:59 AM 20person
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* In ''Fanfic/EventHorizonStormOfMagic'', the Company is an amoral and ruthless MegaCorp that thinks nothing of bribing politicians and judges to look the other way, encouraging war to break out in the [[Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire Seven Kingdoms]] in order to sell weapons to both the Starks and Lannisters, and blackmailing or even murdering anyone who gets in the way of what they want. They're openly imperialistic, dismissing the inhabitants of all the worlds as barbarian savages, [[AnOfferYouCantRefuse "purchasing"]] their land, and exploiting them for their own profit. Everyone from the [[UnitedNationsIsASuperpower UN]] to the natives of the worlds recognizes this. However, they also bring modern technology that vastly improves the lives of the natives (e.g. medicines, fertilizer, trains), introduce modern values and ideas (e.g. human rights and equality, public education, finance), and generally try to uplift the natives to a higher standard of living. Also, when you consider that the Company's opponents are some [[{{Understatement}} rather nasty folks]] like the White Walkers, [[Literature/TheLordOfTheRings Mordor]], and [[TabletopGame/{{Warhammer}} Chaos]], suddenly they don't seem so bad.

to:

* In ''Fanfic/EventHorizonStormOfMagic'', the Company is an amoral and ruthless MegaCorp that thinks nothing of bribing politicians and judges to look the other way, encouraging war to break out in the [[Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire Seven Kingdoms]] in order to sell weapons to both the Starks and Lannisters, and blackmailing or even murdering anyone who gets in the way of what they want. They're openly imperialistic, dismissing the inhabitants of all the worlds as barbarian savages, [[AnOfferYouCantRefuse "purchasing"]] their land, and exploiting them for their own profit. Everyone from the [[UnitedNationsIsASuperpower UN]] to the natives of the worlds recognizes this. However, they also bring modern technology that vastly improves the lives of the natives (e.g. medicines, fertilizer, trains), [[CoolTrain trains]]), introduce modern values and ideas (e.g. human rights and equality, public education, finance), and generally try to uplift the natives to a higher standard of living. Also, when you consider that the Company's opponents are some [[{{Understatement}} rather nasty folks]] like the White Walkers, [[Literature/TheLordOfTheRings Mordor]], and [[TabletopGame/{{Warhammer}} Chaos]], suddenly they don't seem so bad.
19th Apr '16 6:11:57 AM 20person
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* In ''Fanfic/EventHorizonStormOfMagic'', the Company is an amoral and ruthless MegaCorp that thinks nothing of bribing politicians and judges to look the other way, encouraging war to break out in the [[Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire Seven Kingdoms]] in order to sell weapons to both the Starks and Lannisters, and blackmailing or even murdering anyone who gets in the way of what they want. They're openly imperialistic, dismissing the inhabitants of all the worlds as barbarian savages, [[AnOfferYouCantRefuse "purchasing"]] their land, and exploiting them for their own profit. Everyone from the [[UnitedNationsIsASuperpower UN]] to the natives of the worlds recognizes this. However, they also bring modern technology that vastly improves the lives of the natives (e.g. medicines, fertilizer, trains), introduce modern values and ideas (e.g. equality, public education, finance), and generally try to uplift the natives to a higher standard of living. Also, when you consider that the Company's opponents are some [[{{Understatement}} rather nasty folks]] like the White Walkers, [[Literature/TheLordOfTheRings Mordor]], and [[TabletopGame/{{Warhammer}} Chaos]], suddenly they don't seem so bad.

to:

* In ''Fanfic/EventHorizonStormOfMagic'', the Company is an amoral and ruthless MegaCorp that thinks nothing of bribing politicians and judges to look the other way, encouraging war to break out in the [[Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire Seven Kingdoms]] in order to sell weapons to both the Starks and Lannisters, and blackmailing or even murdering anyone who gets in the way of what they want. They're openly imperialistic, dismissing the inhabitants of all the worlds as barbarian savages, [[AnOfferYouCantRefuse "purchasing"]] their land, and exploiting them for their own profit. Everyone from the [[UnitedNationsIsASuperpower UN]] to the natives of the worlds recognizes this. However, they also bring modern technology that vastly improves the lives of the natives (e.g. medicines, fertilizer, trains), introduce modern values and ideas (e.g. human rights and equality, public education, finance), and generally try to uplift the natives to a higher standard of living. Also, when you consider that the Company's opponents are some [[{{Understatement}} rather nasty folks]] like the White Walkers, [[Literature/TheLordOfTheRings Mordor]], and [[TabletopGame/{{Warhammer}} Chaos]], suddenly they don't seem so bad.
19th Apr '16 6:08:12 AM 20person
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Added DiffLines:

* In ''Fanfic/EventHorizonStormOfMagic'', the Company is an amoral and ruthless MegaCorp that thinks nothing of bribing politicians and judges to look the other way, encouraging war to break out in the [[Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire Seven Kingdoms]] in order to sell weapons to both the Starks and Lannisters, and blackmailing or even murdering anyone who gets in the way of what they want. They're openly imperialistic, dismissing the inhabitants of all the worlds as barbarian savages, [[AnOfferYouCantRefuse "purchasing"]] their land, and exploiting them for their own profit. Everyone from the [[UnitedNationsIsASuperpower UN]] to the natives of the worlds recognizes this. However, they also bring modern technology that vastly improves the lives of the natives (e.g. medicines, fertilizer, trains), introduce modern values and ideas (e.g. equality, public education, finance), and generally try to uplift the natives to a higher standard of living. Also, when you consider that the Company's opponents are some [[{{Understatement}} rather nasty folks]] like the White Walkers, [[Literature/TheLordOfTheRings Mordor]], and [[TabletopGame/{{Warhammer}} Chaos]], suddenly they don't seem so bad.
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