History Main / BiggerBad

* In ''VideoGame/{{Warframe}}'', much of the game's mess can be laid at the feet of the leaders of the Grineer and the Corpus, none of whom you get to strike directly at. And then there are Sentients, who waged war with [[Main/Precursors Orokin]], which led to creation on Tenno in the first place and Empire downfall [[spoiler:by Tenno hands]].

* In ''VideoGame/{{Warframe}}'', much of the game's mess can be laid at the feet of the leaders of the Grineer and the Corpus, none of whom you get to strike directly at. And then there are Sentients, who waged war with ''[[Main/Precursors Orokin]]'', which led to creation on Tenno in the first place and Empire downfall [[spoiler:by Tenno hands]].

* In ''VideoGame/{{Warframe}}'', much of the game's mess can be laid at the feet of the leaders of the Grineer and the Corpus, none of whom you get to strike directly at. And then there are Sentients, who waged war with [[Precursors Orokin]], which led to creation on Tenno in the first place and Empire downfall [[spoiler:by Tenno hands]].

* In ''VideoGame/{{Warframe}}'', much of the game's mess can be laid at the feet of the leaders of the Grineer and the Corpus, none of whom you get to strike directly at. And then there are Sentients, who waged war with [[Main/Precursors Orokin]], which led to creation on Tenno in the first place and Empire downfall [[spoiler:by Tenno hands]].

* In ''VideoGame/{{Warframe}}'', much of the game's mess can be laid at the feet of the leaders of the Grineer and the Corpus, none of whom you get to strike directly at.

* In ''Literature/AlexRider'', Zeljan Kurst is the leader of SCORPIA, and the one who orders the BigBads of ''Snakehea'' and ''Scorpia Rising'' to carry out their plots, though he never comes face to face with Alex.

* An EvilNebulousOrganisation who is aware of the BigBad (and is often associated with them) but for whatever reason is uninterested in current events.

* An EvilNebulousOrganization who is aware of the BigBad (and is often associated with them) but for whatever reason is uninterested in current events.

* An organization who is aware of the BigBad (and is often associated with them) but for whatever reason is uninterested in current events.

** Cauldron is this for a large part of the story. Long before they directly come into the picture, they indirectly aid and albeit a lot of the antagonists.

* Lamia is a textbook example in ''Literature/TheHeroesOfOlympus''. Three thousand years ago, she wove the spell that allows monsters to detect demigods, and that one act has shaped everything that happened since.

* Apep (also known by his Greek name Apophis) in Myth/EgyptianMythology.
* Loki in NorseMythology, who spawned or is otherwise responsible for many of the monsters that threaten the gods. He takes up the Big Bad mantle in time for [[TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt Ragnarok]].

* Apep (also known by his Greek name Apophis) in EgyptianMythology.

* Kazavon in ''TabletopGame/{{Pathfinder}}'''s ''Curse of the Crimson Throne'' campaign. A monstrous Blue Dragon and PsychoForHire who once served as Zon-Kuthon's [[TheDragon Champion]], Kazavon was killed long before the story began. His evil persists however, in the form of seven [[ArtifactOfDoom Artifacts Of Doom]] made out of his bones, which are so contaminated by the pure evil of his soul that they [[TheCorrupter corrupt]] all they touch, exacerbating the evil that is already there in the human soul. Queen Illeosa, TheBigBad of the setting, is wearing the Crown of Fangs carved out of his teeth; with her defeat the story is over, but the possibility of someone else picking up the Crown (or one of the other six items) remains a very real threat.

* A [[TheDreaded Dreaded Warlord]] who inspires immense fear (or even inspiration) from the BigBad, but is not involved with their actions.
* A LegionOfDoom who is aware of the BigBad (and is often associated with them) but for whatever reason is uninterested with current events.

In a general sense this should also not be considered the same as TheManBehindTheMan, because if they are behind the plot they would be a BigBad. Usually, it is when it turns out that the character that you thought was the BigBad actually had someone else pulling the strings. However, TheManBehindTheMan and BiggerBad can overlap if TheManBehindTheMan remains distant enough from the story. The BiggerBad must not give orders to the BigBad, but they can corrupt the BigBad to make the Big Bad work for them. They allow the BigBad to do their own thing and don't interfere unless it's in their interests to do so.

* A LegionOfDoom who is aware of the BigBad (and is often associated with them) but for whatever reason is unconcerned with current events.

There is the BigBad, a character directly responsible for the plot even while sending out various minions and lieutenants to make the hero's life busy. But what about a greater enemy that is ''indirectly'' responsible for the plot? That's where this trope comes in,

* A LegionOfDoom who is aware of the BigBad but for whatever reason is unconcerned with current events.

A BiggerBad doesn't always have to remain a BiggerBad, however. One arc's BiggerBad can become the next arc's BigBad if the previous BigBad is defeated and the SortingAlgorithmOfEvil kicks in to provide a bigger threat for the heroes to face. Alternatively, the BiggerBad could show up and try to ruin everyone's day, becoming the new BigBad and possibly forcing an EnemyMine situation between the heroes and the previous villain. Inversely, a BigBad can be KickedUpstairs to become a BiggerBad.

* A[[DemonLordsAndArchdevils demon lord, archdevil]], GodOfEvil, or EldritchAbomination with a ReligionOfEvil and/or PathOfInspiration built around them.

There is the BigBad, a character directly responsible for the plot even while sending out various minions and lieutenants to make the hero's life busy. But what about a greater enemy that is ''indirectly'' responsible for the plot? That's where this trope comes in, a villainous presence that is more significant than the BigBad ''in the setting as a whole'', but isn't causing the conflict of ''the immediate story'' (and may have little to do with it at all).

* A SealedEvilInACan that the current BigBad is obsessed with but, typically, never gets released.

A being ''can'' be a BigBad in one story and later be KickedUpstairs to Bigger Bad (or the reverse). In a general sense this should also not be considered the same as TheManBehindTheMan, because if they are behind the plot they would be a BigBad. Stories can get rather complicated, and in a later story the character previously assumed to be the BigBad is stripped of their "BigBad" status and demoted to TheDragon or even DiscOneFinalBoss status. Most importantly, if they are directly responsible for the story in any form they are NOT a BiggerBad.

The core of the trope is the distant relation to the conflict. If you can remove the character from the story or replace them with an impersonal force ''without'' dramatically affecting the plot, they're probably this trope. However, note that the Bigger Bad may be part of why the villain became the BigBad in the first place. In stories based on real life, you could argue if ThoseWackyNazis are the antagonists, then their line of authority leads to UsefulNotes/AdolfHitler, even if he doesn't physically appear. As a rule of thumb, though, Hitler should at least be referenced to in some fashion and not simply assumed.

A being who fits this trope is likely a [[DemonLordsAndArchdevils demon lord, archdevil]], GodOfEvil, or EldritchAbomination with a ReligionOfEvil and/or PathOfInspiration built around them. They are probably MadeOfEvil and will probably exist AsLongAsThereIsEvil. Overlap with UltimateEvil is also likely. In more mundane cases, this role can be taken by a distant dictator who, like the supernatural version, overshadows a work but doesn't enter it directly. In any Christian inspired spiritual work, there will usually be some implication that {{Satan}} exists, somewhere, and is probably ultimately responsible for the evils of the BigBad on account of being the originator of sin, but either can't or won't take much of an active role in the plot.

As the page description for BigBad notes, that character may be the one who is directly responsible for the plot, but is not necessarily the most powerful or significant evil presence in the setting. That's where this trope comes in -- the setting has a villainous presence that is more significant than the BigBad ''in the setting as a whole'', but isn't causing the conflict of ''the story'' (and may have little to do with it at all). Perhaps it is an important SealedEvilInACan that never gets released, is simply unconcerned with current events, or is a mindless force that can't by any realistic stretch of the imagination be considered a character. Sometimes, the real BigBad will seek [[AppliedPhlebotinum to exploit or make use of it]], or may pay lip service to it, though this doesn't always happen. If the BigBad tries to harness the Bigger Bad for their own gain, they'll likely learn the painful (sometimes fatal) lesson that EvilIsNotAToy.

'''Note that despite the name, this is ''not'' a subtrope of BigBad.''' A Bigger Bad is a more threatening force of evil in the setting and overshadows it, but due to mindlessness, imprisonment, lack of interest, or other factors, it is disconnected on a personal level from the main plot, which is caused by the BigBad. A being ''can'' be a BigBad in one story and later be KickedUpstairs to Bigger Bad (or the reverse).

'''Also not to be confused with TheManBehindTheMan''', where a villain directly tied into the story is revealed to be controlling or manipulating the apparent BigBad. In this case, The Man Behind the Man is the actual hidden Big Bad ('''not''' a Bigger Bad), and the character previously assumed to be the BigBad is stripped of their "BigBad" status and demoted to TheDragon or even DiscOneFinalBoss status. Don't take this to mean that the Bigger Bad needs to be completely physically absent from the story. They can certainly appear or even be indirectly behind the BigBad, but the important distinction is that unlike The Man Behind the Man, they are never in direct conflict with the heroes.

A being who fits this trope is likely a [[DemonLordsAndArchdevils demon lord, archdevil]], GodOfEvil, or EldritchAbomination with a ReligionOfEvil and/or PathOfInspiration built around them. They are probably MadeOfEvil and will probably exist AsLongAsThereIsEvil. Overlap with UltimateEvil is also likely. In more mundane cases, this role can be taken by a distant dictator who, like the supernatural version, overshadows a work but doesn't enter it directly.

In any work where ThoseWackyNazis are the antagonists, it's a virtual given that their marching orders ultimately come from UsefulNotes/AdolfHitler, even if he doesn't physically appear. In any Christian allegory, Christianity-inspired work, or vaguely-spiritual work written by a Christian, there will usually be some implication that {{Satan}} exists, somewhere, and is probably ultimately responsible for the evils of the BigBad on account of being the originator of sin, but either can't or won't take much of an active role in the plot.

As a general rule of thumb, if you're uncertain whether a character counts as BigBad or Bigger Bad -- if you can remove the character from the story or replace them with an impersonal force ''without'' dramatically affecting the plot, they're probably this trope. However, note that the Bigger Bad may be part of why the villain became the BigBad in the first place.

** ''Disney/TheFoxAndTheHound'' has the bear, who doesn't have a role until the climax of the story yet manages to be more threatening than the BigBad, Amos Slade.

* ''Film/SkyHigh'':
** The powerful supervillain Baron Battle. He's presently serving a [[CrossesTheLineTwice quadruple-life sentence]] and never gets out at any point in the film, but he greatly influences the backstory and is strongly implied to be ''far'' more evil than Royal Pain. WordOfGod says that [[WhatCouldHaveBeen had the planned sequels actually been made]], he would've put in a personal appearance.
** If one considers [[spoiler:Sue and Gwen]] to be separate characters (though for what it's worth [[spoiler:Gwen]] herself doesn't), the former could be seen as this.

* Ra's Al Ghul in ''Film/TheDarkKnightRises'', posthumously. It is his lingering legacy that Bane and [[spoiler:Talia Al Ghul]] are trying to fulfill.

* ''Manga/DragonBall'':
** Frieza is this to Vegeta during the Saiyan arc before becoming the BigBad himself in the Namek/Frieza arcs. Same for his father King Cold, before showing up himself at the beginning of the Androids arc.
** Despite being killed off early, Dr. Gero is this for the Androids and Sell sagas, being their creator, with Cell being a back up plan after his death since he knew Cell would come to life long after he dies.
** Bibidi is this to the Buu saga. He created Majin Buu and fathered Babidi, and his death prompted his son to free his creation and attempted to continue his work.

** ''Disney/TheFoxAndTheHound'' has the bear, who doesn't have a role until the climax of the story yet manages to be more threatening than the BigBad, Amos Slade.

** In ''Disney/{{Frozen}}'', [[spoiler: Prince Hans' twelve brothers]] could qualify because [[spoiler: their abuse on their brother is what made him a {{Jerkass}}]].

* ''Film/{{Daredevil}}'': Fallon wanted Matt Murdock's father to throw his final boxing match. Because he didn't, he had him killed. This act caused Matt Murdock to one day become Daredevil, while the man who murdered Matt's father would one day outgrow his boss and become the Kingpin.

* ''[[AceAttorneyInvestigations Ace Attorney Investigations 2]]'' has [[spoiler:Di-Jun Huang]], who not only took the identity of [[spoiler:the president of Zheng-Fa]] but also had powerful associates in the Prison and Legal systems of Japan/the USA. However, his actions also lead to [[spoiler: his death at the hands of the BigBad: Simon Keyes]].
** From the same game, [[spoiler:Blaise Debeste]] is arguably the Bigger Bad of the [[UpToEleven entire franchise]], being the one who [[spoiler:gave Manfred von Karma the first penalty in his [[ThePerfectionist perfect 40-year career]]. The penalty was for using a falsified autopsy report as evidence, but Blaise was the one who had the report falsified in the first place]]. This in turn lead to the [[spoiler:DL-6 Incident]], a tragic event that was both directly and indirectly responsible for the backstories of several major characters.