History Main / AppealToInherentNature

26th Nov '16 8:51:34 PM Fireblood
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* Creator/AmbroseBierce put the same point in another way in regards to free will. Even if a murderer can't help what they did, who's to say the person punishing them can either?
-->"There's no free will," says the philosopher;\\
"To hang is most unjust."\\
"There is no free will," assents the officer;\\
"We hang because we must."



* [[http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/scientists-say-free-will-probably-doesnt-exist-but-urge-dont-stop-believing/ This article]] plays with this trope. It starts by showing evidence in favor of determinism (that is, the idea of people not having free will and indeed behaving in their inherent nature). The article also goes on to show studies that prove that people who are exposed to such evidence will also ''start'' behaving like jerks. So the very nature of people is not "immutable", it can end up being changed by external stimuli (something true whether or not determinism is the correct view). The article even presents an argument by some scientists: even if it is true that free will does not exist, people should not be exposed to evidence disproving free will, and thereby changing people's natures to be more bad.

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* [[http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/scientists-say-free-will-probably-doesnt-exist-but-urge-dont-stop-believing/ This article]] plays with this the trope. It starts by showing evidence in favor of determinism (that is, the idea of people not having free will and indeed behaving in by their inherent nature). The article also goes on to show studies that prove that people who are exposed to such evidence will also ''start'' behaving like jerks. So the very nature of people is not "immutable", it can end up being changed by external stimuli (something true whether or not determinism is the correct view). The article even presents an argument by some scientists: even if it is true that free will does not exist, people should not be exposed to evidence disproving free will, and thereby changing change people's natures to be more bad.worse.
27th Oct '16 3:21:39 PM Sharlee
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* In ''Film/PiratesOfTheCaribbeanDeadMansChest'', Calypso justifies her failure to meet Davey Jones again after ten years with "It's my nature". She then points out that her flighty, tempestuous nature is the reason he'd ''loved her in the first place'', so expecting her to behave otherwise for that love's sake is hardly consistent.

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* In ''Film/PiratesOfTheCaribbeanDeadMansChest'', ''Film/PiratesOfTheCaribbeanAtWorldsEnd'', Calypso justifies her failure to meet Davey Jones again after ten years with "It's my nature". She then points out that her flighty, tempestuous nature as a sea-goddess is the reason he'd ''loved loved her in the first place'', place, so expecting her to behave otherwise for that love's sake is hardly consistent.hypocritical.
27th Oct '16 3:15:09 PM Sharlee
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* In ''Film/PiratesOfTheCaribbeanDeadMansChest'', Calypso justifies her failure to meet Davey Jones again after ten years with "It's my nature". She then points out that her flighty, tempestuous nature is the reason he'd ''loved her in the first place'', so expecting her to behave otherwise for that love's sake is hardly consistent.
26th Sep '16 8:22:54 PM LavaringX
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This is usually a fallacy, but there are cases where it isn't. The key is consistency: if someone/something always reacts a particular way to a situation and always will, simply describing this is fundamentally correct. For instance, a computer will always do what you tell it to do [[LiteralGenie (although not necessarily what you ''want'' it to do)]]. Naturally, this is very difficult to do with people without implicitly denying that they are human or getting involved in tautologies: saying AllGaysArePromiscuous is offensive, but saying that [[ShapedLikeItself all Portuguese speakers speak Portuguese]] is [[CaptainObvious stating the obvious]]. It's saying something is good ''because'' inherent to them that is the problem.

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This is usually a fallacy, but there are cases where it isn't. The key is consistency: if someone/something always reacts a particular way to a situation and always will, simply describing this is fundamentally correct. For instance, a computer will always do what you tell it to do [[LiteralGenie (although not necessarily what you ''want'' it to do)]]. Naturally, this is very difficult to do with people without implicitly denying that they are human or getting involved in tautologies: saying AllGaysArePromiscuous is offensive, but saying that [[ShapedLikeItself all Portuguese speakers speak Portuguese]] is [[CaptainObvious stating the obvious]]. It's saying something is good ''because'' it's inherent to them that is the problem.
28th Aug '16 6:04:26 PM 3DDowner
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* Used by traditionalists and conservatives all the time: all men are this way, all woman are that way...
** Radical liberals do this too, just with a different set of stereotypes. Really, anything that adheres to a strict Us vs. Them mindset tends to abuse this fallacy.

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* Used by traditionalists and conservatives all the time: all men are this way, all woman women are that way...
** Radical liberals do this too, just with a different set of stereotypes. Really, anything that adheres to a strict Us vs. Them mindset tends to abuse this fallacy.
way...
17th Jun '16 8:24:35 PM jormis29
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* Thoroughly mocked in ''TabletopGames/LegendOfTheFiveRings''. While this is a setting based on traditional Japanese ideals of cosmology (and thus, Advantages and Disadvantages tend to [[InTheBlood run in family lines]]), the fact that this isn't ''overall'' true causes a lot of unneeded misery in setting, since a lot of samurai believe it. For example, the first emperor of the [[TokenEvilTeammate Scorpion Clan]] told the clan founder the folktale of the scorpion and the frog...except he changed the ending. When the frog asks why the scorpion stung the frog in the middle of a river, drowning them both, [[ConsummateLiar the scorpion]] replied "[[IAmNotLeftHanded Little frog]], [[ForTheEvulz I can swim.]]" And indeed, the Clan as a whole is untrustworthy and dishonorable...as is their purpose, since their explicit title is "Underhand of the Emperor", the people who do the things Bushido prevents. Individual Scorpions are trained ''specifically'' how to spin this logical fallacy to their advantage; since everyone expects a Scorpion to be untrustworthy, [[SarcasticConfession they can lie by telling the truth]].

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* Thoroughly mocked in ''TabletopGames/LegendOfTheFiveRings''.''TabletopGame/LegendOfTheFiveRings''. While this is a setting based on traditional Japanese ideals of cosmology (and thus, Advantages and Disadvantages tend to [[InTheBlood run in family lines]]), the fact that this isn't ''overall'' true causes a lot of unneeded misery in setting, since a lot of samurai believe it. For example, the first emperor of the [[TokenEvilTeammate Scorpion Clan]] told the clan founder the folktale of the scorpion and the frog...except he changed the ending. When the frog asks why the scorpion stung the frog in the middle of a river, drowning them both, [[ConsummateLiar the scorpion]] replied "[[IAmNotLeftHanded Little frog]], [[ForTheEvulz I can swim.]]" And indeed, the Clan as a whole is untrustworthy and dishonorable...as is their purpose, since their explicit title is "Underhand of the Emperor", the people who do the things Bushido prevents. Individual Scorpions are trained ''specifically'' how to spin this logical fallacy to their advantage; since everyone expects a Scorpion to be untrustworthy, [[SarcasticConfession they can lie by telling the truth]].
17th Jun '16 8:23:48 PM jormis29
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* Thoroughly mocked in ''TabletopRPG/LegendOfTheFiveRings''. While this is a setting based on traditional Japanese ideals of cosmology (and thus, Advantages and Disadvantages tend to [[InTheBlood run in family lines]]), the fact that this isn't ''overall'' true causes a lot of unneeded misery in setting, since a lot of samurai believe it. For example, the first emperor of the [[TokenEvilTeammate Scorpion Clan]] told the clan founder the folktale of the scorpion and the frog...except he changed the ending. When the frog asks why the scorpion stung the frog in the middle of a river, drowning them both, [[ConsummateLiar the scorpion]] replied "[[IAmNotLeftHanded Little frog]], [[ForTheEvulz I can swim.]]" And indeed, the Clan as a whole is untrustworthy and dishonorable...as is their purpose, since their explicit title is "Underhand of the Emperor", the people who do the things Bushido prevents. Individual Scorpions are trained ''specifically'' how to spin this logical fallacy to their advantage; since everyone expects a Scorpion to be untrustworthy, [[SarcasticConfession they can lie by telling the truth]].

to:

* Thoroughly mocked in ''TabletopRPG/LegendOfTheFiveRings''.''TabletopGames/LegendOfTheFiveRings''. While this is a setting based on traditional Japanese ideals of cosmology (and thus, Advantages and Disadvantages tend to [[InTheBlood run in family lines]]), the fact that this isn't ''overall'' true causes a lot of unneeded misery in setting, since a lot of samurai believe it. For example, the first emperor of the [[TokenEvilTeammate Scorpion Clan]] told the clan founder the folktale of the scorpion and the frog...except he changed the ending. When the frog asks why the scorpion stung the frog in the middle of a river, drowning them both, [[ConsummateLiar the scorpion]] replied "[[IAmNotLeftHanded Little frog]], [[ForTheEvulz I can swim.]]" And indeed, the Clan as a whole is untrustworthy and dishonorable...as is their purpose, since their explicit title is "Underhand of the Emperor", the people who do the things Bushido prevents. Individual Scorpions are trained ''specifically'' how to spin this logical fallacy to their advantage; since everyone expects a Scorpion to be untrustworthy, [[SarcasticConfession they can lie by telling the truth]].
17th Jun '16 12:12:59 PM Josef5678
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** This trope does get a twist in {{Legend of the Five Rings}}, however, as Shinsei the sage tells Bayushi of the Scorpion clan a version with a different ending (it also used a frog rather than a turtle): [[spoiler:"Little frog, [[MagnificentBastard I can swim."]]]]



* Thoroughly mocked in TabletopRPG/LegendOfTheFiveRings. While this is a setting based on traditional Japanese ideals of cosmology (and thus, Advantages and Disadvantages tend to [[InTheBlood run in family lines]]), the fact that this isn't ''overall'' true causes a lot of unneeded misery in setting, since a lot of samurai believe it.
** In fact, a mockery of the trope is the foundation of the [[TokenEvilTeammate Scorpion Clan]]; the first Emperor told the clan founder the folktale of the scorpion and the frog...except he changed the ending. When the frog asks why the scorpion stung the frog in the middle of a river, drowning them both, [[ConsummateLiar the scorpion]] replied "[[IAmNotLeftHanded Little frog]], [[ForTheEvulz I can swim.]]" And indeed, the Clan as a whole is untrustworthy and dishonorable...as is their purpose, since their explicit title is "Underhand of the Emperor", the people who do the things Bushido prevents. Individual Scorpions are trained ''specifically'' how to spin this logical fallacy to their advantage; since everyone expects a Scorpion to be untrustworthy, [[SarcasticConfession they can lie by telling the truth]].

to:

* Thoroughly mocked in TabletopRPG/LegendOfTheFiveRings. ''TabletopRPG/LegendOfTheFiveRings''. While this is a setting based on traditional Japanese ideals of cosmology (and thus, Advantages and Disadvantages tend to [[InTheBlood run in family lines]]), the fact that this isn't ''overall'' true causes a lot of unneeded misery in setting, since a lot of samurai believe it.
** In fact, a mockery of
it. For example, the trope is the foundation first emperor of the [[TokenEvilTeammate Scorpion Clan]]; the first Emperor Clan]] told the clan founder the folktale of the scorpion and the frog...except he changed the ending. When the frog asks why the scorpion stung the frog in the middle of a river, drowning them both, [[ConsummateLiar the scorpion]] replied "[[IAmNotLeftHanded Little frog]], [[ForTheEvulz I can swim.]]" And indeed, the Clan as a whole is untrustworthy and dishonorable...as is their purpose, since their explicit title is "Underhand of the Emperor", the people who do the things Bushido prevents. Individual Scorpions are trained ''specifically'' how to spin this logical fallacy to their advantage; since everyone expects a Scorpion to be untrustworthy, [[SarcasticConfession they can lie by telling the truth]].
17th Jun '16 11:52:48 AM Leliel
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Added DiffLines:

* Thoroughly mocked in TabletopRPG/LegendOfTheFiveRings. While this is a setting based on traditional Japanese ideals of cosmology (and thus, Advantages and Disadvantages tend to [[InTheBlood run in family lines]]), the fact that this isn't ''overall'' true causes a lot of unneeded misery in setting, since a lot of samurai believe it.
** In fact, a mockery of the trope is the foundation of the [[TokenEvilTeammate Scorpion Clan]]; the first Emperor told the clan founder the folktale of the scorpion and the frog...except he changed the ending. When the frog asks why the scorpion stung the frog in the middle of a river, drowning them both, [[ConsummateLiar the scorpion]] replied "[[IAmNotLeftHanded Little frog]], [[ForTheEvulz I can swim.]]" And indeed, the Clan as a whole is untrustworthy and dishonorable...as is their purpose, since their explicit title is "Underhand of the Emperor", the people who do the things Bushido prevents. Individual Scorpions are trained ''specifically'' how to spin this logical fallacy to their advantage; since everyone expects a Scorpion to be untrustworthy, [[SarcasticConfession they can lie by telling the truth]].
4th Jun '16 3:07:44 PM Josef5678
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* In ''Literature/TheDresdenFiles'', Harry's first meeting with [[TheFairFolk Mab]] ends with her telling him the story of the scorpion and the frog, to illustrate that, even when carrying out her mission will be extremely dangerous and put him through a lot of pain, she is quite certain that he will do it anyway, even when he knows it will likely kill him.

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* In ''Literature/TheDresdenFiles'', ''Literature/TheDresdenFiles'':
**
Harry's first meeting with [[TheFairFolk Mab]] ends with her telling him the story of the scorpion and the frog, to illustrate that, even when carrying out her mission will be extremely dangerous and put him through a lot of pain, she is quite certain that he will do it anyway, even when he knows it will likely kill him.
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