History Main / AppealToInherentNature

17th Jun '16 8:24:35 PM jormis29
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* Thoroughly mocked in ''TabletopGames/LegendOfTheFiveRings''. While this is a setting based on traditional Japanese ideals of cosmology (and thus, Advantages and Disadvantages tend to [[InTheBlood run in family lines]]), the fact that this isn't ''overall'' true causes a lot of unneeded misery in setting, since a lot of samurai believe it. For example, the first emperor of the [[TokenEvilTeammate Scorpion Clan]] told the clan founder the folktale of the scorpion and the frog...except he changed the ending. When the frog asks why the scorpion stung the frog in the middle of a river, drowning them both, [[ConsummateLiar the scorpion]] replied "[[IAmNotLeftHanded Little frog]], [[ForTheEvulz I can swim.]]" And indeed, the Clan as a whole is untrustworthy and dishonorable...as is their purpose, since their explicit title is "Underhand of the Emperor", the people who do the things Bushido prevents. Individual Scorpions are trained ''specifically'' how to spin this logical fallacy to their advantage; since everyone expects a Scorpion to be untrustworthy, [[SarcasticConfession they can lie by telling the truth]].

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* Thoroughly mocked in ''TabletopGames/LegendOfTheFiveRings''.''TabletopGame/LegendOfTheFiveRings''. While this is a setting based on traditional Japanese ideals of cosmology (and thus, Advantages and Disadvantages tend to [[InTheBlood run in family lines]]), the fact that this isn't ''overall'' true causes a lot of unneeded misery in setting, since a lot of samurai believe it. For example, the first emperor of the [[TokenEvilTeammate Scorpion Clan]] told the clan founder the folktale of the scorpion and the frog...except he changed the ending. When the frog asks why the scorpion stung the frog in the middle of a river, drowning them both, [[ConsummateLiar the scorpion]] replied "[[IAmNotLeftHanded Little frog]], [[ForTheEvulz I can swim.]]" And indeed, the Clan as a whole is untrustworthy and dishonorable...as is their purpose, since their explicit title is "Underhand of the Emperor", the people who do the things Bushido prevents. Individual Scorpions are trained ''specifically'' how to spin this logical fallacy to their advantage; since everyone expects a Scorpion to be untrustworthy, [[SarcasticConfession they can lie by telling the truth]].
17th Jun '16 8:23:48 PM jormis29
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* Thoroughly mocked in ''TabletopRPG/LegendOfTheFiveRings''. While this is a setting based on traditional Japanese ideals of cosmology (and thus, Advantages and Disadvantages tend to [[InTheBlood run in family lines]]), the fact that this isn't ''overall'' true causes a lot of unneeded misery in setting, since a lot of samurai believe it. For example, the first emperor of the [[TokenEvilTeammate Scorpion Clan]] told the clan founder the folktale of the scorpion and the frog...except he changed the ending. When the frog asks why the scorpion stung the frog in the middle of a river, drowning them both, [[ConsummateLiar the scorpion]] replied "[[IAmNotLeftHanded Little frog]], [[ForTheEvulz I can swim.]]" And indeed, the Clan as a whole is untrustworthy and dishonorable...as is their purpose, since their explicit title is "Underhand of the Emperor", the people who do the things Bushido prevents. Individual Scorpions are trained ''specifically'' how to spin this logical fallacy to their advantage; since everyone expects a Scorpion to be untrustworthy, [[SarcasticConfession they can lie by telling the truth]].

to:

* Thoroughly mocked in ''TabletopRPG/LegendOfTheFiveRings''.''TabletopGames/LegendOfTheFiveRings''. While this is a setting based on traditional Japanese ideals of cosmology (and thus, Advantages and Disadvantages tend to [[InTheBlood run in family lines]]), the fact that this isn't ''overall'' true causes a lot of unneeded misery in setting, since a lot of samurai believe it. For example, the first emperor of the [[TokenEvilTeammate Scorpion Clan]] told the clan founder the folktale of the scorpion and the frog...except he changed the ending. When the frog asks why the scorpion stung the frog in the middle of a river, drowning them both, [[ConsummateLiar the scorpion]] replied "[[IAmNotLeftHanded Little frog]], [[ForTheEvulz I can swim.]]" And indeed, the Clan as a whole is untrustworthy and dishonorable...as is their purpose, since their explicit title is "Underhand of the Emperor", the people who do the things Bushido prevents. Individual Scorpions are trained ''specifically'' how to spin this logical fallacy to their advantage; since everyone expects a Scorpion to be untrustworthy, [[SarcasticConfession they can lie by telling the truth]].
17th Jun '16 12:12:59 PM Josef5678
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** This trope does get a twist in {{Legend of the Five Rings}}, however, as Shinsei the sage tells Bayushi of the Scorpion clan a version with a different ending (it also used a frog rather than a turtle): [[spoiler:"Little frog, [[MagnificentBastard I can swim."]]]]



* Thoroughly mocked in TabletopRPG/LegendOfTheFiveRings. While this is a setting based on traditional Japanese ideals of cosmology (and thus, Advantages and Disadvantages tend to [[InTheBlood run in family lines]]), the fact that this isn't ''overall'' true causes a lot of unneeded misery in setting, since a lot of samurai believe it.
** In fact, a mockery of the trope is the foundation of the [[TokenEvilTeammate Scorpion Clan]]; the first Emperor told the clan founder the folktale of the scorpion and the frog...except he changed the ending. When the frog asks why the scorpion stung the frog in the middle of a river, drowning them both, [[ConsummateLiar the scorpion]] replied "[[IAmNotLeftHanded Little frog]], [[ForTheEvulz I can swim.]]" And indeed, the Clan as a whole is untrustworthy and dishonorable...as is their purpose, since their explicit title is "Underhand of the Emperor", the people who do the things Bushido prevents. Individual Scorpions are trained ''specifically'' how to spin this logical fallacy to their advantage; since everyone expects a Scorpion to be untrustworthy, [[SarcasticConfession they can lie by telling the truth]].

to:

* Thoroughly mocked in TabletopRPG/LegendOfTheFiveRings. ''TabletopRPG/LegendOfTheFiveRings''. While this is a setting based on traditional Japanese ideals of cosmology (and thus, Advantages and Disadvantages tend to [[InTheBlood run in family lines]]), the fact that this isn't ''overall'' true causes a lot of unneeded misery in setting, since a lot of samurai believe it.
** In fact, a mockery of
it. For example, the trope is the foundation first emperor of the [[TokenEvilTeammate Scorpion Clan]]; the first Emperor Clan]] told the clan founder the folktale of the scorpion and the frog...except he changed the ending. When the frog asks why the scorpion stung the frog in the middle of a river, drowning them both, [[ConsummateLiar the scorpion]] replied "[[IAmNotLeftHanded Little frog]], [[ForTheEvulz I can swim.]]" And indeed, the Clan as a whole is untrustworthy and dishonorable...as is their purpose, since their explicit title is "Underhand of the Emperor", the people who do the things Bushido prevents. Individual Scorpions are trained ''specifically'' how to spin this logical fallacy to their advantage; since everyone expects a Scorpion to be untrustworthy, [[SarcasticConfession they can lie by telling the truth]].
17th Jun '16 11:52:48 AM Leliel
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Added DiffLines:

* Thoroughly mocked in TabletopRPG/LegendOfTheFiveRings. While this is a setting based on traditional Japanese ideals of cosmology (and thus, Advantages and Disadvantages tend to [[InTheBlood run in family lines]]), the fact that this isn't ''overall'' true causes a lot of unneeded misery in setting, since a lot of samurai believe it.
** In fact, a mockery of the trope is the foundation of the [[TokenEvilTeammate Scorpion Clan]]; the first Emperor told the clan founder the folktale of the scorpion and the frog...except he changed the ending. When the frog asks why the scorpion stung the frog in the middle of a river, drowning them both, [[ConsummateLiar the scorpion]] replied "[[IAmNotLeftHanded Little frog]], [[ForTheEvulz I can swim.]]" And indeed, the Clan as a whole is untrustworthy and dishonorable...as is their purpose, since their explicit title is "Underhand of the Emperor", the people who do the things Bushido prevents. Individual Scorpions are trained ''specifically'' how to spin this logical fallacy to their advantage; since everyone expects a Scorpion to be untrustworthy, [[SarcasticConfession they can lie by telling the truth]].
4th Jun '16 3:07:44 PM Josef5678
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* In ''Literature/TheDresdenFiles'', Harry's first meeting with [[TheFairFolk Mab]] ends with her telling him the story of the scorpion and the frog, to illustrate that, even when carrying out her mission will be extremely dangerous and put him through a lot of pain, she is quite certain that he will do it anyway, even when he knows it will likely kill him.

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* In ''Literature/TheDresdenFiles'', ''Literature/TheDresdenFiles'':
**
Harry's first meeting with [[TheFairFolk Mab]] ends with her telling him the story of the scorpion and the frog, to illustrate that, even when carrying out her mission will be extremely dangerous and put him through a lot of pain, she is quite certain that he will do it anyway, even when he knows it will likely kill him.
4th Jun '16 2:31:06 PM mzytryck01
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Added DiffLines:

* In ''Literature/TheDresdenFiles'', Harry's first meeting with [[TheFairFolk Mab]] ends with her telling him the story of the scorpion and the frog, to illustrate that, even when carrying out her mission will be extremely dangerous and put him through a lot of pain, she is quite certain that he will do it anyway, even when he knows it will likely kill him.
** The spirit of this trope is often in play whenever Harry tries to have a civil conversation with the Fae; their particular nature gives them an inability to tell a direct lie, but serious discomfort from making clear, unambiguous statements and a compulsion to obey their rules and principles of balance, meaning that any conversation with them (even when they're genuinely trying to be helpful,) will be full of ExactWords, riddles and guesswork. Infuriating as he finds it, Harry eventually accepts that he just has to put up with it, and that a Fae who appears to be being obstructive may actually be doing everything to help him that their nature allows.
3rd Jun '16 8:31:17 PM Fireblood
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This is usually a fallacy, but there are cases where it isn't. The key is consistency: if someone/something always reacts a particular way to a situation and always will, then this is fundamentally correct. For instance, a computer will always do what you tell it to do [[LiteralGenie (although not necessarily what you ''want'' it to do)]]. Naturally, this is very difficult to do with people without implicitly denying that they are human or getting involved in tautologies: saying AllGaysArePromiscuous is offensive, but saying that [[ShapedLikeItself all Portuguese speakers speak Portuguese]] is [[CaptainObvious stating the obvious]].

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This is usually a fallacy, but there are cases where it isn't. The key is consistency: if someone/something always reacts a particular way to a situation and always will, then simply describing this is fundamentally correct. For instance, a computer will always do what you tell it to do [[LiteralGenie (although not necessarily what you ''want'' it to do)]]. Naturally, this is very difficult to do with people without implicitly denying that they are human or getting involved in tautologies: saying AllGaysArePromiscuous is offensive, but saying that [[ShapedLikeItself all Portuguese speakers speak Portuguese]] is [[CaptainObvious stating the obvious]].
obvious]]. It's saying something is good ''because'' inherent to them that is the problem.



* The biggest flaw with this reasoning in humans is that we possess the ability to choose what we do, up to and including overriding instinct to do so. Some choices are very difficult to make, but people are not ruled by their own urges. Having said that, its not necessarily wrong to follow one's instincts if those instincts are moral, or at least not against morals, with morals being a subjective issue dependent on the person and society.
* [[http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/scientists-say-free-will-probably-doesnt-exist-but-urge-dont-stop-believing/ This article]] plays with this trope. It starts by showing evidence in favor of determinism (that is, the idea of people not having free will and indeed behaving in their inherent nature). The article also goes on to show studies that prove that people who are exposed to such evidence will also ''start'' behaving like jerks. So the very nature of people is not "immutable" can end up being changed by external stimuli. The article even presents an argument by some scientists: even if it is true that free will does not exist, people should not be exposed to evidence disproving free will, and thereby changing people's natures to be more bad.

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* The biggest flaw with this reasoning in humans is that we possess the ability to choose what we do, up to and including overriding instinct to do so. Some choices are very difficult to make, but people are not ruled by their own urges. Having said that, its not necessarily wrong to follow one's instincts if those instincts are moral, or at least not against morals, with morals being a subjective issue dependent on the person and society.
morals.
* [[http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/scientists-say-free-will-probably-doesnt-exist-but-urge-dont-stop-believing/ This article]] plays with this trope. It starts by showing evidence in favor of determinism (that is, the idea of people not having free will and indeed behaving in their inherent nature). The article also goes on to show studies that prove that people who are exposed to such evidence will also ''start'' behaving like jerks. So the very nature of people is not "immutable" "immutable", it can end up being changed by external stimuli.stimuli (something true whether or not determinism is the correct view). The article even presents an argument by some scientists: even if it is true that free will does not exist, people should not be exposed to evidence disproving free will, and thereby changing people's natures to be more bad.
2nd Mar '16 2:11:20 PM Josef5678
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* The general FamilyUnfriendlyAesop of ''Series/MalcolmInTheMiddle'', that "Life is unfair", is really only possible because of this trope. The sub-Aesop is that there will always be authority figures in your lives that are unfair, and there's nothing you can do about it...''nor should you'', because that's just who they are. This, of course, means that the authority figures on this show can behave like jerks and use this justification as an excuse to avoid having to change their behavior; after all, it is in authority figures ''nature'' to be unfair, so they are not to be subject to criticism when they behave so. (Also, when Malcolm calls out the various adults on using this excuse, the show wants us to think Malcolm is being an EmoTeen.)

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* The general FamilyUnfriendlyAesop of ''Series/MalcolmInTheMiddle'', that "Life is unfair", is really only possible because of this trope. The sub-Aesop is that there will always be authority figures in your lives that are unfair, and there's nothing you can do about it...''nor should you'', because that's just who they are. This, of course, means that the authority figures on this show can behave like jerks and use this justification as an excuse to avoid having to change their behavior; after all, it is in authority figures figure's ''nature'' to be unfair, so they are not to be subject to criticism when they behave so. (Also, when Malcolm calls out the various adults on using this excuse, the show wants us to think Malcolm is being an EmoTeen.)
31st Dec '15 6:48:41 PM Anddrix
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* ''ComicBook/TheMightyThor'': Used to suggest why Loki is Loki, because he just can't help being bad (and BecauseDestinySaysSo). In recent years, Loki took offense to the idea, since it makes him predictable, and has tried very hard to be good. Several characters have noted their belief that sooner or later, he'll go back to being the villain. For what it's worth being extremely {{rebellious|Spirit}} and [[{{Determinator}} stubborn]] are also part of SelfDemonstrating/{{Loki}}'s inherent nature so the more people question their ability to change ''the harder they try to'' (basically their approach to be good is the very same obsessiveness they used to try to conquer Asgard and/or defeat Thor with time and time again no matter how many times they failed).

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* ''ComicBook/TheMightyThor'': Used to suggest why Loki is Loki, because he just can't help being bad (and BecauseDestinySaysSo). In recent years, Loki took offense to the idea, since it makes him predictable, and has tried very hard to be good. Several characters have noted their belief that sooner or later, he'll go back to being the villain. For what it's worth being extremely {{rebellious|Spirit}} and [[{{Determinator}} stubborn]] are also part of SelfDemonstrating/{{Loki}}'s Loki's inherent nature so the more people question their ability to change ''the harder they try to'' (basically their approach to be good is the very same obsessiveness they used to try to conquer Asgard and/or defeat Thor with time and time again no matter how many times they failed).
15th Dec '15 11:59:00 AM nombretomado
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* Often used in WoW on role-playing servers by trolls. "I ''am'' role playing. My character is a jerk!"

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* Often used in WoW ''VideoGame/WorldOfWarcraft'' on role-playing servers by trolls. "I ''am'' role playing. My character is a jerk!"
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