History Headscratchers / TheSalvationWar

*** [=WW2=] saw the first nuke being deployed, already in the 20 kiloton range. I wouldn't worry too much that something more powerful than nukes would be built in the next five decades. However, what is more impressive than [[AMillionIsAStatistic nuking hundreds of thousands of angelic troopers]] is the fact living standard of the people would not plummet even when fighting the Gods themselves. [=WW1=] saw German famine of 1917 and Russian Bolshevism born in hunger, blood and tears. [=WW2=] saw [[ArsonMurderAndJaywalking rationing, plunder, bombing and mass murder]]. 50 years ago people saw poverty during the Civil Rights troubles, Soviet oppression and destruction of entire countries in irregular warfare, less than 40 years ago people saw oil shock, 20 years ago they saw troubles, poverty, inflation and loss of millions of jobs during the fall of Communism. Nowadays even as oil is far above the highest level attained during the worst oil crisis and billions of dolars are dumped daily in Afghan and Iraqi War, people barely register it - everyone drives to his or her job, cashes the paychecks, spends money on whatever needed, eats in restaurants, watches widescreen [=TVs=]. For TSW:A Human characters, Armageddon was, [[IncrediblyLamePun quite literally]], worlds away. The fact that military could win in a canter was more or less expectable since [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_test July 16, 1945]], but the fact that civilians ''would not even notice'' a war is fought is quite the achievement.

** Have read the story. Twice in fact. It took 17 chapters (Five to Twenty-Two) and three combined armies (American, British and Iranian) to smash Abigor's army of over 400,000. It took a single nuclear initiation to fry an angelic army of comparable size in seconds. [[WhatAnIdiot Keeping troops in compact formation on an open ground]] might have been wise for millennia, [[CaptainObvious because radios and aircraft had not yet been invented]].
** Again, the fact that a nuclear wepaon would instantly wipe out the baldricks ''is acknowledged in the story''. Abigor notes that after learning about the power of nuclear weapons that the humans could have wiped him out without any effort and were using minimal force. At the same time, they present reasons for this. They didn't want to reveal their full capabilities to the Baldricks, and they didn't want to detonate a nuclear device on Earth; note that the only two times they used nuclear devices, they were planning to use them on Heaven's soil, and both uses caused massive, widepsread destruction and fallout. In addition, detonating a nuke near the area where you're going to be staging a counter-invasion is the height of idiocy.

*** First off humans used portals from earth-hell hell-earth for rapid deployment so why didn't demons? Just because they fought a converntional line em-up smash-em together doesn't mean that they don't understand the importance of securing ground quickly. Come to think of it the blind loyalty demons showed to satan is somewhat alarming. Satan seems to be little more than a oversized child with a superioty complex. Demons's like Belial and even Abigor showed far more intaitve and intelligence than the satan ever did. Irregular warefare would of been perfect to erode that idoit's powerbase and take power for yourself. Really the demons in this story are polar opposite of what you would expect, fighting upfront instead of manipulating behind the scenes and showing a loyalty to their monarch that even the most crazed fanatic would be jealous of instead of plotting to take his power for yourself at ever turn.

*** ''Demons's like Belial and even Abigor showed far more intaitve and intelligence than the satan ever did. Irregular warefare would of been perfect to erode that idoit's powerbase and take power for yourself.'' Again, you're showing you haven't really read the story. If you had, you'd know that the demons were so loyal to Satan because they believed he used the pain from the tortured humans to send them to their equivalent afterlife. Devotion through fear is a powerful motivator for loyalty. Further, all of the demon lords have established lands and estates - estates which would be easy to attack and sack by other demon lords with Satan's blessing. If a demon lord acts up, Satan simply points and all the others squish him. It also doesn't help that the demonic soldiers that serve each lord are highly mercenary, much like they were in the Medieval-Renaissance Italian society that Hell is based on. If a demon lord begins acting up, [[strike: the Pope]] Satan just needs to [[strike: excommunicate]] put a cash bounty on the head of the uppity lord, and his own men will either abandon him or take him down. Its much safer for them to fight each other.

*** .50 Beowulf has superior performance against soft targets and can be used by AR model firearms but in terms of hard target penetration, range, and bullet energy .30-06 is actually better. And SLAP ammunition is extremely optimized towards penetrating hard targets. I believe you're refering to [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk_211 HEIAP]] ammunition.

*** .50 Beowulf has superior performance against soft targets and can be fired through the AR-15 platform but in terms of hard target penetration, range, and bullet energy .30-06 is actually better.
*** SLAP ammunition is extremely optimized towards penetrating hard targets. It does not include an explosive/incendiary component. For that you'd want [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk_211 HEIAP]] rounds.

*** .50 Beowulf has superior performance against soft targets and can be fired through the AR-15 platform but in terms of hard target penetration, range, and bullet energy .30-06 is actually better.
*** SLAP ammunition is extremely optimized towards penetrating hard targets. It does not include an explosive/incendiary component. For that you'd want [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk_211 HEIAP]] rounds.

*** .50 Beowulf has superior performance against soft targets and can be fired through the AR-15 platform but in terms of hard target penetration and overall kinetic energy .30-06 is actually better.
*** A SLAP round is extremely optimized towards penetrating hard targets. It does not include an explosive/incendiary compponent. For that you'd want [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk_211 HEIAP]] rounds.

*** [=WW2=] saw the first nuke being deployed, already in the 20 kiloton range. I wouldn't worry too much that [[UpToEleven something more powerful than nukes]] would be built in the next five decades. However, what is more impressive than [[AMillionIsAStatistic nuking hundreds of thousands of angelic troopers]] is the fact living standard of the people would not plummet even when fighting the Gods themselves. [=WW1=] saw German famine of 1917 and Russian Bolshevism born in hunger, blood and tears. [=WW2=] saw [[ArsonMurderAndJaywalking rationing, plunder, bombing and mass murder]]. 50 years ago people saw poverty during the Civil Rights troubles, Soviet oppression and destruction of entire countries in irregular warfare, less than 40 years ago people saw oil shock, 20 years ago they saw troubles, poverty, inflation and loss of millions of jobs during the fall of Communism. Nowadays even as oil is far above the highest level attained during the worst oil crisis and billions of dolars are dumped daily in Afghan and Iraqi War, people barely register it - everyone drives to his or her job, cashes the paychecks, spends money on whatever needed, eats in restaurants, watches widescreen [=TVs=]. For TSW:A Human characters, Armageddon was, [[IncrediblyLamePun quite literally]], worlds away. The fact that military could win in a canter was more or less expectable since [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_test July 16, 1945]], but the fact that civilians ''would not even notice'' a war is fought is quite the achievement.

Before you post something here, it is best that you actually '''READ THE STORY'''. This is a Headscratchers page, not a place for Administrivia/ComplainingAboutShowsYouDontLike.

If you're not going to '''READ THE STORY''' (your loss, it's quite good) then at least '''[[http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4555 READ THE FAQ]]'''. If you ask a question here that's long since been answered there, don't be surprised if you come back later to find a response that's somewhat snippy in tone, or no response at all.

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* The first Human-Baldrick battle on the Iraqi desert was a CrowningMomentOfAwesome for the Humans, but, strategically speaking, a waste of resources - instead of attracting the unsuspecting foe into a kill zone and butcher it by artillery and aircraft, it would make more sense to attract it into a kill zone where a [[DeusExNukina large (multi-megaton) nuclear weapon]] had been previosuly buried. But for the RuleOfCool, a few chapters of Human valiant battlefield action were needed.

Before you post something here, it is best that you actually '''READ THE STORY'''. This is a JustBugsMe page, not a place for Administrivia/ComplainingAboutShowsYouDontLike.

*** Abigor, in his case, adapted faster than many human generals did in real life to massively changing technology. Just look at World War I and how long it simply took human generals to come up with stormtrooper tactics or armored advances. By comparison, the demons made the jump from Bronze Age to WWII in the span of a few ''weeks'', '''without''' the approapriate technologies to cause a mental shift in tactics and strategy. That is an ''incredible'' tactical and strategic leap there.

*** I know at least in the story, they admitted that in say, the WW2 era, we would've won, it'd just be harder. Also, remember that bit where they were amazed at the crafted blunderbuss? Yeah...also, muskets tend to have been in the .50-.75 range, so they WOULD have been nasty to Baldricks. Also, keep in mind that in WW2, the smallest standard caliber was .30-06 IIRC.

*** This really reinforces the point about how quickly humanity's ability to kill has developed. Against daemons, a Napoleonic Army would be a chew-toy (literally); by UsefulNotes/WW1 the humans have a minimal ability to resist, by WW2 a significant but not decisive capability, now we could win in a canter without really worrying too much. Now where's something really chilling to think about; what's human killing ability going to be like in 50 years time if these trends continue?
*** WW2 saw the first nuke being deployed, already in the 20 kiloton range. I wouldn't worry too much that [[UpToEleven something more powerful than nukes]] would be built in the next five decades. However, what is more impressive than [[AMillionIsAStatistic nuking hundreds of thousands of angelic troopers]] is the fact living standard of the people would not plummet even when fighting the Gods themselves. [=WW1=] saw German famine of 1917 and Russian Bolshevism born in hunger, blood and tears. WW2 saw [[ArsonMurderAndJaywalking rationing, plunder, bombing and mass murder]]. 50 years ago people saw poverty during the Civil Rights troubles, Soviet oppression and destruction of entire countries in irregular warfare, less than 40 years ago people saw oil shock, 20 years ago they saw troubles, poverty, inflation and loss of millions of jobs during the fall of Communism. Nowadays even as oil is far above the highest level attained during the worst oil crisis and billions of dolars are dumped daily in Afghan and Iraqi War, people barely register it - everyone drives to his or her job, cashes the paychecks, spends money on whatever needed, eats in restaurants, watches widescreen [=TVs=]. For TSW:A Human characters, Armageddon was, [[IncrediblyLamePun quite literally]], worlds away. The fact that military could win in a canter was more or less expectable since [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_test July 16, 1945]], but the fact that civilians ''would not even notice'' a war is fought is quite the achievement.

*** There are good points there but taking the 1914 level first. The edges the daemonic armies have are mobility - they can move faster than human divisions which are essentially restricted to walking pace (even cavalry doesn't move significantly faster than infantry in an operational sense) while daemons walk much faster; vulnerability in that rifle-calibre bullets have limited effect on them. Heavy calibre slugs didn't really exist back then (I know there were some exceptions) and air power, In 1914 a harpy would tear the crude aircraft that existed then apart in mid-air. Then the troops on the ground would be defenceless. The human artillery would be gone ASAP, its defenceless. Remember, nothing is behind armour. I agree with your comments on gas but chemical weapons need artillery to deliver them and the guns then were in the open and horse-drawn. Also, yes they did have forward observers back in 1914 but communication were slow and very unreliable. That's one of the reasons behind the slaughter of WW1. Yes, artillery is the primary killer, that's the point of the battle scenes in TSW:A. Artillery slaughters everybody its aimed at, no argument there. But, in 1914, artillery was nothing like as lethal as it was in 2003. No sub-munitions, no computerized fire control, no reliable communications. Add in the fact that the human armies would be under unopposed Harpy attack, and its looking grim for them. They'd bleed the daemons, bleed them very badly, but daemons are shown as being able to take very heavy casualties. Perhaps more than anything else, the pace of war in 1914 was so much slower than it is today that the daemons could keep up with it. What really killed them in TSW:A is that they couldn't learn fast enough to adapt.

*** This really reinforces the point about how quickly humanity's ability to kill has developed. Against daemons, a Napoleonic Army would be a chew-toy (literally); by WW1 the humans have a minimal ability to resist, by WW2 a significant but not decisive capability, now we could win in a canter without really worrying too much. Now where's something really chilling to think about; what's human killing ability going to be like in 50 years time if these trends continue?
*** WW2 saw the first nuke being deployed, already in the 20 kiloton range. I wouldn't worry too much that [[UpToEleven something more powerful than nukes]] would be built in the next five decades. However, what is more impressive than [[AMillionIsAStatistic nuking hundreds of thousands of angelic troopers]] is the fact living standard of the people would not plummet even when fighting the Gods themselves. WW1 saw German famine of 1917 and Russian Bolshevism born in hunger, blood and tears. WW2 saw [[ArsonMurderAndJaywalking rationing, plunder, bombing and mass murder]]. 50 years ago people saw poverty during the Civil Rights troubles, Soviet oppression and destruction of entire countries in irregular warfare, less than 40 years ago people saw oil shock, 20 years ago they saw troubles, poverty, inflation and loss of millions of jobs during the fall of Communism. Nowadays even as oil is far above the highest level attained during the worst oil crisis and billions of dolars are dumped daily in Afghan and Iraqi War, people barely register it - everyone drives to his or her job, cashes the paychecks, spends money on whatever needed, eats in restaurants, watches widescreen [=TVs=]. For TSW:A Human characters, Armageddon was, [[IncrediblyLamePun quite literally]], worlds away. The fact that military could win in a canter was more or less expectable since [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_test July 16, 1945]], but the fact that civilians ''would not even notice'' a war is fought is quite the achievement.

*** WorldWarTwo technology would be just as deadly for an opponent which is tough, but still made of flesh and bone. Already from the Spitfire V (and on the opposite side, practically before the first shot of WWII had been fired) fighter aircraft had 20mm and 30mm cannon armament, rifle-caliber machineguns were already obsolete. Lightning bolts and flames aside, it would be pretty hard to withstand 20mm shells even if you're a Baldrick, leave alone 150mm artillery and dive bombers. And then there were the nerve gases. Even the Führer [[EvenEvilHasStandards hesitated to use such thing in the war]], as he was fighting for the very survival of Germany, but in front of a daemonic army all scruples wither. Not only there would be minefields around the Hellmouth, heavy railway artillery at safe distances and cannon-armed fighters in waiting, but at the slightest provocation, Tabun would rain on Abigor's troops. However, from a ''strategic'' point of view, Humans would be just as outclassed as the German forces were throughout the Eastern Front war. Electronics were reduced back then to vacuum-tube radios and electromechanical ballistic computers, psychic abilities were not even regarded outside some crackpot groups and [[ThoseWackyNazis an even more crackpot set of Third Reich dignitaries]], so portals would be out of question, everything should be prepared, fought and won on a strip of desert in the Middle East, [[OhCrap which is far away from most infrastructure of the time, centered on Europe and North America]]. Railways for supply and defense have to be built from scratch over thousands of miles, just like armored and AA-armed trains able to withstand Harpy attacks, armament programs which were costly even in RealLife have to be boosted, factories (which relied on skilled manual labor!) have to be built and crewed overnight, a Human army of millions of troopers has to be assembled, equipped, trained and pushed into Hell [[SerialEscalation carrying hundreds of thousands of tonnes]] of equipment via trucks and trains. The combined forces of USA, Third Reich, USSR, British Empire and other large countries could win the war, but they will quickly become bankrupt and starve their population before sizable results are gained.

*** Even in the least likely version possible, if the the Baldricks [[JustShootHim decided to wipe the Humanity out pre-emptively]] during, let's say, WorldWarOne or WorldWarTwo, [[OnrushingArmy attacking the largest concentrations of population in Europe or the Americas]] [[HollywoodTactics through many portals at once]] would just place them under the concentrated fire of most of the world's artillery and bombing aircraft and also in the middle of the densest rail networks on the planet, to pour hundreds of thousands of armed troops against them ''per day''. Logistics would help Humans like nothing else. Like [[FourStarBadass Lt.Gen. Chesty Puller]] said, "that simplifies our problem of getting to these Baldricks and killing them".

*** This way of thinking combined with former arrogance has assured the absolute submissiveness of most if not all Baldricks once defeated on the battlefield. They were so convinced they were invincible that if ''something'' (read "Humans") was strong enough to defeat them, that ''something'' was so strong that resistance was futile. A Baldrick able to think as a Human and to absorb experience of WorldWarTwo would understand how [[LaResistance guerrilla war]] from a species [[ProudWarriorRaceGuy able to withstand hardship like no one]] and [[AppliedPhlebotinum open portals wherever needed]] could seriously undermine the modern global economy.

*** Start buying it because you think wrong. The publisher had already read both the written novels -- not the essentially pre-first-draft versions on the Star Destroyer dot Net forums, but the cleaned-up, edited, nearly-ready-for-publication copy -- before signing on to publish them so they knew exactly what they were getting before they signed on the dotted line. Indeed, the controversial aspect was something they found appealing because nothing sells books like a good scandal. The fact is that plans to publish the Salvation War were a direct casualty of literary piracy. (And the unprintable epithet who stole and torrented them actually had the gall to write to Slade and tell him not only that he was the one who'd done so, but that he'd done it precisely to ensure they could never be published.)

*** Start buying it because you think wrong. The publisher had already read both the written novels -- not the essentially pre-first-draft versions on the Star Destroyer dot Net forums, but the cleaned-up, edited, nearly-ready-for-publication copy -- before signing on to publish them so they knew exactly what they were getting before they signed on the dotted line. Indeed, the controversial aspect was something they found appealing because nothing sells books like a good scandal. The fact is that plans to publish the Salvation War were a direct casualty of literary piracy. (And the unprintable epithet who stole and torrented them actually had the gall to write to Slade and tell him not only that he was the one who'd done so, but that he'd done it precisely to ensure they could never be published.)
*** In that case, we will never, ever see another web-published property get a dead-tree edition from a major publisher ever again. What conventional publisher would risk it, if any idiot with BitTorrent could queer the deal for them?

** McNamara died after the text was written and was judged by a very cursory "reading of their aura" not by detailed knowledge of their acts on earth. So Macnamara went to the ninth circle because he was judged as being a treacherous, evil betrayer rather than for the enormously long list of dreadful acts he committed on earth. Instead, the 9th circle of Hell 'waiting pits' mentioned are reserved for 'the network executives who cancelled Firefly'.

*** 1939? I do not think the daemons would have stood a chance even then. I have TwoWords for you: chemical warfare. If nerve gas had not yet been invented, phosgene and mustard gas would nonetheless have remained every bit as nasty as they had been in 1918. You'd have to go back further for it to be a fair fight. Even in the Russo-Japanese War of 1907 they had artillery forward observation officers using radio and field telephones to communicate with artillery to coordinate indirect fire, and shells filled with TNT. In the large-scale battles in Iraq it was massed artillery fire that was the real killer (this is what we would expect from Twentieth Century warfare, where, in every major war, artillery inflicts 90%+ of casualties among the infantry) and that most definitely existed on Earth in 1907. European armies were making heavy use of the Maxim gun and other similar designs from Hotchkiss and Vickers--belt-fed heavy machine guns--in 1890, and massed HMGs would have doubtless inflicted a great many casualties on daemons. Before high explosives the state-of-the-art anti-personnel fragmentation artillery round was the UK's Armstrong shell, larger examples of which, despite being filled with black powder, were effective, if inefficient, even by 21st Century standards. Handling large-sized Harpy units without chemical warfare would have been difficult, though. Then again chemical warfare was very rapidly implemented once someone had the idea for it in 1915, and nothing that it required in 1915 would have been impossible in 1890. Indirect artillery fire could have been done using telegraph communication between observers and firing units, too, if someone had thought of it.

If you're not going to '''READ THE STORY''' (your loss, it's quite good) then at least [[http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4555 READ THE FAQ]]. If you ask a question here that's long since been answered there, don't be surprised if you come back later to find a response that's somewhat snippy in tone, or no response at all.

If you're not going to '''READ THE STORY''' (your loss, it's quite good) then at least '''[[www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4555 READ THE FAQ]]'''. If you ask a question here that's long since been answered there, don't be surprised if you come back later to find a response that's somewhat snippy in tone, or no response at all.

Before you post something here, it is best that you actually '''READ THE STORY'''. This is a JustBugsMe page, not a place for you to Administrivia/ComplainingAboutShowsYouDontLike.