History Headscratchers / TheSalvationWar

17th Jun '17 1:32:10 PM nombretomado
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*** There are good points there but taking the 1914 level first. The edges the daemonic armies have are mobility - they can move faster than human divisions which are essentially restricted to walking pace (even cavalry doesn't move significantly faster than infantry in an operational sense) while daemons walk much faster; vulnerability in that rifle-calibre bullets have limited effect on them. Heavy calibre slugs didn't really exist back then (I know there were some exceptions) and air power, In 1914 a harpy would tear the crude aircraft that existed then apart in mid-air. Then the troops on the ground would be defenceless. The human artillery would be gone ASAP, its defenceless. Remember, nothing is behind armour. I agree with your comments on gas but chemical weapons need artillery to deliver them and the guns then were in the open and horse-drawn. Also, yes they did have forward observers back in 1914 but communication were slow and very unreliable. That's one of the reasons behind the slaughter of WW1. Yes, artillery is the primary killer, that's the point of the battle scenes in TSW:A. Artillery slaughters everybody its aimed at, no argument there. But, in 1914, artillery was nothing like as lethal as it was in 2003. No sub-munitions, no computerized fire control, no reliable communications. Add in the fact that the human armies would be under unopposed Harpy attack, and its looking grim for them. They'd bleed the daemons, bleed them very badly, but daemons are shown as being able to take very heavy casualties. Perhaps more than anything else, the pace of war in 1914 was so much slower than it is today that the daemons could keep up with it. What really killed them in TSW:A is that they couldn't learn fast enough to adapt.

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*** There are good points there but taking the 1914 level first. The edges the daemonic armies have are mobility - they can move faster than human divisions which are essentially restricted to walking pace (even cavalry doesn't move significantly faster than infantry in an operational sense) while daemons walk much faster; vulnerability in that rifle-calibre bullets have limited effect on them. Heavy calibre slugs didn't really exist back then (I know there were some exceptions) and air power, In 1914 a harpy would tear the crude aircraft that existed then apart in mid-air. Then the troops on the ground would be defenceless. The human artillery would be gone ASAP, its defenceless. Remember, nothing is behind armour. I agree with your comments on gas but chemical weapons need artillery to deliver them and the guns then were in the open and horse-drawn. Also, yes they did have forward observers back in 1914 but communication were slow and very unreliable. That's one of the reasons behind the slaughter of WW1.[=WW1=]. Yes, artillery is the primary killer, that's the point of the battle scenes in TSW:A. Artillery slaughters everybody its aimed at, no argument there. But, in 1914, artillery was nothing like as lethal as it was in 2003. No sub-munitions, no computerized fire control, no reliable communications. Add in the fact that the human armies would be under unopposed Harpy attack, and its looking grim for them. They'd bleed the daemons, bleed them very badly, but daemons are shown as being able to take very heavy casualties. Perhaps more than anything else, the pace of war in 1914 was so much slower than it is today that the daemons could keep up with it. What really killed them in TSW:A is that they couldn't learn fast enough to adapt.



*** This really reinforces the point about how quickly humanity's ability to kill has developed. Against daemons, a Napoleonic Army would be a chew-toy (literally); by WW1 the humans have a minimal ability to resist, by WW2 a significant but not decisive capability, now we could win in a canter without really worrying too much. Now where's something really chilling to think about; what's human killing ability going to be like in 50 years time if these trends continue?
*** WW2 saw the first nuke being deployed, already in the 20 kiloton range. I wouldn't worry too much that [[UpToEleven something more powerful than nukes]] would be built in the next five decades. However, what is more impressive than [[AMillionIsAStatistic nuking hundreds of thousands of angelic troopers]] is the fact living standard of the people would not plummet even when fighting the Gods themselves. WW1 saw German famine of 1917 and Russian Bolshevism born in hunger, blood and tears. WW2 saw [[ArsonMurderAndJaywalking rationing, plunder, bombing and mass murder]]. 50 years ago people saw poverty during the Civil Rights troubles, Soviet oppression and destruction of entire countries in irregular warfare, less than 40 years ago people saw oil shock, 20 years ago they saw troubles, poverty, inflation and loss of millions of jobs during the fall of Communism. Nowadays even as oil is far above the highest level attained during the worst oil crisis and billions of dolars are dumped daily in Afghan and Iraqi War, people barely register it - everyone drives to his or her job, cashes the paychecks, spends money on whatever needed, eats in restaurants, watches widescreen [=TVs=]. For TSW:A Human characters, Armageddon was, [[IncrediblyLamePun quite literally]], worlds away. The fact that military could win in a canter was more or less expectable since [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_test July 16, 1945]], but the fact that civilians ''would not even notice'' a war is fought is quite the achievement.

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*** This really reinforces the point about how quickly humanity's ability to kill has developed. Against daemons, a Napoleonic Army would be a chew-toy (literally); by WW1 UsefulNotes/WW1 the humans have a minimal ability to resist, by WW2 a significant but not decisive capability, now we could win in a canter without really worrying too much. Now where's something really chilling to think about; what's human killing ability going to be like in 50 years time if these trends continue?
*** WW2 saw the first nuke being deployed, already in the 20 kiloton range. I wouldn't worry too much that [[UpToEleven something more powerful than nukes]] would be built in the next five decades. However, what is more impressive than [[AMillionIsAStatistic nuking hundreds of thousands of angelic troopers]] is the fact living standard of the people would not plummet even when fighting the Gods themselves. WW1 [=WW1=] saw German famine of 1917 and Russian Bolshevism born in hunger, blood and tears. WW2 saw [[ArsonMurderAndJaywalking rationing, plunder, bombing and mass murder]]. 50 years ago people saw poverty during the Civil Rights troubles, Soviet oppression and destruction of entire countries in irregular warfare, less than 40 years ago people saw oil shock, 20 years ago they saw troubles, poverty, inflation and loss of millions of jobs during the fall of Communism. Nowadays even as oil is far above the highest level attained during the worst oil crisis and billions of dolars are dumped daily in Afghan and Iraqi War, people barely register it - everyone drives to his or her job, cashes the paychecks, spends money on whatever needed, eats in restaurants, watches widescreen [=TVs=]. For TSW:A Human characters, Armageddon was, [[IncrediblyLamePun quite literally]], worlds away. The fact that military could win in a canter was more or less expectable since [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_test July 16, 1945]], but the fact that civilians ''would not even notice'' a war is fought is quite the achievement.
13th Jun '17 9:44:35 PM nombretomado
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*** WorldWarTwo technology would be just as deadly for an opponent which is tough, but still made of flesh and bone. Already from the Spitfire V (and on the opposite side, practically before the first shot of WWII had been fired) fighter aircraft had 20mm and 30mm cannon armament, rifle-caliber machineguns were already obsolete. Lightning bolts and flames aside, it would be pretty hard to withstand 20mm shells even if you're a Baldrick, leave alone 150mm artillery and dive bombers. And then there were the nerve gases. Even the Führer [[EvenEvilHasStandards hesitated to use such thing in the war]], as he was fighting for the very survival of Germany, but in front of a daemonic army all scruples wither. Not only there would be minefields around the Hellmouth, heavy railway artillery at safe distances and cannon-armed fighters in waiting, but at the slightest provocation, Tabun would rain on Abigor's troops. However, from a ''strategic'' point of view, Humans would be just as outclassed as the German forces were throughout the Eastern Front war. Electronics were reduced back then to vacuum-tube radios and electromechanical ballistic computers, psychic abilities were not even regarded outside some crackpot groups and [[ThoseWackyNazis an even more crackpot set of Third Reich dignitaries]], so portals would be out of question, everything should be prepared, fought and won on a strip of desert in the Middle East, [[OhCrap which is far away from most infrastructure of the time, centered on Europe and North America]]. Railways for supply and defense have to be built from scratch over thousands of miles, just like armored and AA-armed trains able to withstand Harpy attacks, armament programs which were costly even in RealLife have to be boosted, factories (which relied on skilled manual labor!) have to be built and crewed overnight, a Human army of millions of troopers has to be assembled, equipped, trained and pushed into Hell [[SerialEscalation carrying hundreds of thousands of tonnes]] of equipment via trucks and trains. The combined forces of USA, Third Reich, USSR, British Empire and other large countries could win the war, but they will quickly become bankrupt and starve their population before sizable results are gained.

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*** WorldWarTwo UsefulNotes/WorldWarII technology would be just as deadly for an opponent which is tough, but still made of flesh and bone. Already from the Spitfire V (and on the opposite side, practically before the first shot of WWII had been fired) fighter aircraft had 20mm and 30mm cannon armament, rifle-caliber machineguns were already obsolete. Lightning bolts and flames aside, it would be pretty hard to withstand 20mm shells even if you're a Baldrick, leave alone 150mm artillery and dive bombers. And then there were the nerve gases. Even the Führer [[EvenEvilHasStandards hesitated to use such thing in the war]], as he was fighting for the very survival of Germany, but in front of a daemonic army all scruples wither. Not only there would be minefields around the Hellmouth, heavy railway artillery at safe distances and cannon-armed fighters in waiting, but at the slightest provocation, Tabun would rain on Abigor's troops. However, from a ''strategic'' point of view, Humans would be just as outclassed as the German forces were throughout the Eastern Front war. Electronics were reduced back then to vacuum-tube radios and electromechanical ballistic computers, psychic abilities were not even regarded outside some crackpot groups and [[ThoseWackyNazis an even more crackpot set of Third Reich dignitaries]], so portals would be out of question, everything should be prepared, fought and won on a strip of desert in the Middle East, [[OhCrap which is far away from most infrastructure of the time, centered on Europe and North America]]. Railways for supply and defense have to be built from scratch over thousands of miles, just like armored and AA-armed trains able to withstand Harpy attacks, armament programs which were costly even in RealLife have to be boosted, factories (which relied on skilled manual labor!) have to be built and crewed overnight, a Human army of millions of troopers has to be assembled, equipped, trained and pushed into Hell [[SerialEscalation carrying hundreds of thousands of tonnes]] of equipment via trucks and trains. The combined forces of USA, Third Reich, USSR, British Empire and other large countries could win the war, but they will quickly become bankrupt and starve their population before sizable results are gained.



*** Even in the least likely version possible, if the the Baldricks [[JustShootHim decided to wipe the Humanity out pre-emptively]] during, let's say, WorldWarOne or WorldWarTwo, [[OnrushingArmy attacking the largest concentrations of population in Europe or the Americas]] [[HollywoodTactics through many portals at once]] would just place them under the concentrated fire of most of the world's artillery and bombing aircraft and also in the middle of the densest rail networks on the planet, to pour hundreds of thousands of armed troops against them ''per day''. Logistics would help Humans like nothing else. Like [[FourStarBadass Lt.Gen. Chesty Puller]] said, "that simplifies our problem of getting to these Baldricks and killing them".

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*** Even in the least likely version possible, if the the Baldricks [[JustShootHim decided to wipe the Humanity out pre-emptively]] during, let's say, WorldWarOne UsefulNotes/WorldWarI or WorldWarTwo, UsefulNotes/WorldWarII, [[OnrushingArmy attacking the largest concentrations of population in Europe or the Americas]] [[HollywoodTactics through many portals at once]] would just place them under the concentrated fire of most of the world's artillery and bombing aircraft and also in the middle of the densest rail networks on the planet, to pour hundreds of thousands of armed troops against them ''per day''. Logistics would help Humans like nothing else. Like [[FourStarBadass Lt.Gen. Chesty Puller]] said, "that simplifies our problem of getting to these Baldricks and killing them".



*** This way of thinking combined with former arrogance has assured the absolute submissiveness of most if not all Baldricks once defeated on the battlefield. They were so convinced they were invincible that if ''something'' (read "Humans") was strong enough to defeat them, that ''something'' was so strong that resistance was futile. A Baldrick able to think as a Human and to absorb experience of WorldWarTwo would understand how [[LaResistance guerrilla war]] from a species [[ProudWarriorRaceGuy able to withstand hardship like no one]] and [[AppliedPhlebotinum open portals wherever needed]] could seriously undermine the modern global economy.

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*** This way of thinking combined with former arrogance has assured the absolute submissiveness of most if not all Baldricks once defeated on the battlefield. They were so convinced they were invincible that if ''something'' (read "Humans") was strong enough to defeat them, that ''something'' was so strong that resistance was futile. A Baldrick able to think as a Human and to absorb experience of WorldWarTwo UsefulNotes/WorldWarII would understand how [[LaResistance guerrilla war]] from a species [[ProudWarriorRaceGuy able to withstand hardship like no one]] and [[AppliedPhlebotinum open portals wherever needed]] could seriously undermine the modern global economy.
12th Apr '17 8:17:38 PM Hordeking
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Added DiffLines:

*** The quoted rate is 3 dead people per second. Based some basic math, this works out to about 259,200 deaths/day. I believe this is the flood. Based on the World Bank Data for 2012, the (real world) global crude death rate is 7.99 per 1000 per year. That works out to about 164,178 per day (assuming a population of 7.5B). Of course, these are statistical averages over the course of time. Roughly 1B people dying all at once would obviously skew these numbers in a spike. But for a moment, let's remember that the geometry of Hell isn't Euclidian (3 space + 1 time + whatever others there might be). Perhaps each of these newly dead DO come out of the gate (from their perspective) instantaneously, but perhaps their entry points vary in a time dimension, or even another dimension. So even if the death rate is a spike on Earth, it's more spread out in Hell. So really, a 3 deaths per second rate is only about 1 1/2 what the normal rate is. The fact stands that if time flows the same way for both dimensions, the normal rate should be about 2 people per second. That means that in the story, the normal rate they appear out of the gate is either grossly slowed down to well under one person per second, or the 3 person/second rate is actually grossly undercounting. Could be an unreliable estimate based on the demons' counts?
16th Jun '16 5:53:55 AM Salmon
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*** Start buying it because you think wrong. The publisher had already read both the written novels -- not the essentially pre-first-draft versions on the Star Destroyer dot Net forums, but the cleaned-up, edited, nearly-ready-for-publication copy -- before signing on to publish them so they knew exactly what they were getting before they signed on the dotted line. Indeed, the controversial aspect was something they found appealing because nothing sells books like a good scandal. The fact is that plans to publish the Salvation War were a direct casualty of literary piracy. (And the unprintable epithet who stole and torrented them actually had the gall to write to Slade and tell him not only that he was the one who'd done so, but that he'd done it precisely to ensure they could never be published.)

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*** Start buying it because you think wrong. The publisher had already read both the written novels -- not the essentially pre-first-draft versions on the Star Destroyer dot Net forums, but the cleaned-up, edited, nearly-ready-for-publication copy -- before signing on to publish them so they knew exactly what they were getting before they signed on the dotted line. Indeed, the controversial aspect was something they found appealing because nothing sells books like a good scandal. The fact is that plans to publish the Salvation War were a direct casualty of literary piracy. (And the unprintable epithet who stole and torrented them actually had the gall to write to Slade and tell him not only that he was the one who'd done so, but that claimed he'd done it precisely to ensure they could never be published.)


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*** The issue is something called "First Rights". They're like virginity; once gone, they're gone forever. When a literary pirate steals a product and torrents it, he has stolen the first rights and essentially prevented publication. If the original author torrents something, then he has used (but still owns) his First Rights but can still sell the work for conventional publication although he'll get a lot less money for the deal. Note, posting is not publishing, torrenting is. It may not make much sense but that's the way it is. Literacy piracy is a very bad thing and having one's work pirated prior to publication really screws the author over.
4th Jun '16 8:38:40 PM chaotic-nipple
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*** Start buying it because you think wrong. The publisher had already read both the written novels -- not the essentially pre-first-draft versions on the Star Destroyer dot Net forums, but the cleaned-up, edited, nearly-ready-for-publication copy -- before signing on to publish them so they knew exactly what they were getting before they signed on the dotted line. Indeed, the controversial aspect was something they found appealing because nothing sells books like a good scandal. The fact is that plans to publish the Salvation War were a direct casualty of literary piracy. (And the unprintable epithet who stole and torrented them actually had the gall to write to Slade and tell him not only that he was the one who'd done so, but that he'd done it precisely to ensure they could never be published.)
*** In that case, we will never, ever see another web-published property get a dead-tree edition from a major publisher ever again. What conventional publisher would risk it, if any idiot with BitTorrent could queer the deal for them?

to:

*** **** Start buying it because you think wrong. The publisher had already read both the written novels -- not the essentially pre-first-draft versions on the Star Destroyer dot Net forums, but the cleaned-up, edited, nearly-ready-for-publication copy -- before signing on to publish them so they knew exactly what they were getting before they signed on the dotted line. Indeed, the controversial aspect was something they found appealing because nothing sells books like a good scandal. The fact is that plans to publish the Salvation War were a direct casualty of literary piracy. (And the unprintable epithet who stole and torrented them actually had the gall to write to Slade and tell him not only that he was the one who'd done so, but that he'd done it precisely to ensure they could never be published.)
*** ***** In that case, we will never, ever see another web-published property get a dead-tree edition from a major publisher ever again. What conventional publisher would risk it, if any idiot with BitTorrent could queer the deal for them?
4th Jun '16 8:37:46 PM chaotic-nipple
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Added DiffLines:

**** In that case, we will never, ever see another web-published property get a dead-tree edition from a major publisher ever again. What conventional publisher would risk it, if any idiot with BitTorrent could queer the deal for them?
17th May '16 8:04:24 PM StevieC
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*** Which only proves pride really '''is''' the deadliest sin, after all.
9th Dec '15 2:06:22 PM FF32
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** McNamara died after the text was written and was judged by a very cursory "reading of their aura" not by detailed knowledge of their acts on earth. So Macnamara went to the ninth circle because he was judged as being a treacherous, evil betrayer rather than for the enormously long list of dreadful acts he committed on earth. Instead, the 9th circle of Hell 'waiting pits' mentioned are reserved for 'the network executives who cancelled Firefly'.

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** McNamara [=McNamara=] died after the text was written and was judged by a very cursory "reading of their aura" not by detailed knowledge of their acts on earth. So Macnamara went to the ninth circle because he was judged as being a treacherous, evil betrayer rather than for the enormously long list of dreadful acts he committed on earth. Instead, the 9th circle of Hell 'waiting pits' mentioned are reserved for 'the network executives who cancelled Firefly'.Series/{{Firefly}}'.
1st Dec '15 8:44:47 AM Berrenta
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*** 1939? I do not think the daemons would have stood a chance even then. I have TwoWords for you: chemical warfare. If nerve gas had not yet been invented, phosgene and mustard gas would nonetheless have remained every bit as nasty as they had been in 1918. You'd have to go back further for it to be a fair fight. Even in the Russo-Japanese War of 1907 they had artillery forward observation officers using radio and field telephones to communicate with artillery to coordinate indirect fire, and shells filled with TNT. In the large-scale battles in Iraq it was massed artillery fire that was the real killer (this is what we would expect from Twentieth Century warfare, where, in every major war, artillery inflicts 90%+ of casualties among the infantry) and that most definitely existed on Earth in 1907. European armies were making heavy use of the Maxim gun and other similar designs from Hotchkiss and Vickers--belt-fed heavy machine guns--in 1890, and massed HMGs would have doubtless inflicted a great many casualties on daemons. Before high explosives the state-of-the-art anti-personnel fragmentation artillery round was the UK's Armstrong shell, larger examples of which, despite being filled with black powder, were effective, if inefficient, even by 21st Century standards. Handling large-sized Harpy units without chemical warfare would have been difficult, though. Then again chemical warfare was very rapidly implemented once someone had the idea for it in 1915, and nothing that it required in 1915 would have been impossible in 1890. Indirect artillery fire could have been done using telegraph communication between observers and firing units, too, if someone had thought of it.

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*** 1939? I do not think the daemons would have stood a chance even then. I have TwoWords two words for you: chemical warfare. If nerve gas had not yet been invented, phosgene and mustard gas would nonetheless have remained every bit as nasty as they had been in 1918. You'd have to go back further for it to be a fair fight. Even in the Russo-Japanese War of 1907 they had artillery forward observation officers using radio and field telephones to communicate with artillery to coordinate indirect fire, and shells filled with TNT. In the large-scale battles in Iraq it was massed artillery fire that was the real killer (this is what we would expect from Twentieth Century warfare, where, in every major war, artillery inflicts 90%+ of casualties among the infantry) and that most definitely existed on Earth in 1907. European armies were making heavy use of the Maxim gun and other similar designs from Hotchkiss and Vickers--belt-fed heavy machine guns--in 1890, and massed HMGs would have doubtless inflicted a great many casualties on daemons. Before high explosives the state-of-the-art anti-personnel fragmentation artillery round was the UK's Armstrong shell, larger examples of which, despite being filled with black powder, were effective, if inefficient, even by 21st Century standards. Handling large-sized Harpy units without chemical warfare would have been difficult, though. Then again chemical warfare was very rapidly implemented once someone had the idea for it in 1915, and nothing that it required in 1915 would have been impossible in 1890. Indirect artillery fire could have been done using telegraph communication between observers and firing units, too, if someone had thought of it.
29th Nov '15 1:22:21 PM ham-peas
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If you're not going to '''READ THE STORY''' (your loss, it's quite good) then at least [[http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4555 READ THE FAQ]]. If you ask a question here that's long since been answered there, don't be surprised if you come back later to find a response that's somewhat snippy in tone, or no response at all.

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If you're not going to '''READ THE STORY''' (your loss, it's quite good) then at least [[http://www.'''[[http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4555 READ THE FAQ]].FAQ]]'''. If you ask a question here that's long since been answered there, don't be surprised if you come back later to find a response that's somewhat snippy in tone, or no response at all.
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