History Headscratchers / ThePunisher2017

[[folder: Madani's final decision *spoiler*]]
* Perhaps I wildly misunderstood her arc, but why would Madani [[spoiler:choose to join the CIA after what's happened to her? Her entire plot in the first season shows how the CIA in this universe is morally bankrupt and horrible. When Mahoney offered her the gun and badge and she declined, I thought she was going to go off fishing or something, not start running black ops.]]

*** In general, Karen seems to be more reckless when things are falling apart in her personal life. Her decision to provoke Lewis comes at a time when she's mourning Matt, and it's much like her decision to visit Fisk in his penthouse in ''Daredevil'' season 3 (which came after Fisk had sent Dex to the ''Bulletin'' to kill a bunch of her coworkers and discredit her).
** She actually tells people a lot about her feelings, I mean she talked about her relationship issues with the freaking ''Punisher'' in season 2, a bit of her past with Cardenas and how scared she feels with Trish that the Hand is alive. Like it's not because she doesn't tell Frank about Matt's death that she closed himself it's because she remembers last time she did he used her as bait in a restaurant.
** Karen does tell Frank, "when does it end?" and it's clear that she wants his revenge crusade to stop at some point. It's part of Karen's character to believe that some people truly deserve it, given her lack of hesitation when she killed Wesley, and the fact that Deborah Ann Woll has given the impression in interviews that whatever will be shown of Karen's past in ''Series/Daredevil2015'' season 3 is, it's likely Karen has killed someone else before this.\\

** From a storytelling perspective, it kinda makes sense why Matt's "death" isn't discussed: ''The Punisher'' was designed to be a stand-alone story, and designed to not rely on viewers having watched the other shows. A show's writing needs to stand up on its own merit rather than its association with other big names. This isn't a ''Defenders'' story or ''Daredevil'' story, it's a ''Punisher'' story. Now, ''The Punisher'' wasn't entirely successful in that part, since Frank was introduced in ''Daredevil'' Season 2, and the Colonel Schoonover plotline from that show is what sets up the events of this show, but for the most part the show remains pretty isolated. Most likely, the writers thought that mentioning Matt’s "death" would be too confusing for first-time viewers who hadn’t watched ''The Defenders'' or ''Daredevil''. So they settled for small acknowledgements– the photo in her apartment, her state of sadness throughout the show, etc.– things that were meaningful to ''Daredevil'' fans without being overt.\\

** At the ''Punisher'' ACE Comic-Con panel in January 2018, Jon Bernthal and Ebon Moss-Bachrach said that in fact a scene ''had'' been shot where Frank talked with Karen about Matt's "death" was discussed, but it was cut for various reasons.[[note]]This possibly was either in between Frank approaching Karen on the street and walking into her apartment. But more likely, it was part of the conversation they have by the bridge in episode 5. That conversation has them discussing things like Karen wanting Frank to have an 'after', the need to keep each other safe, Karen's comments about being alone, etc. Thematically, making the conversation on her end be about Matt would slot in very neatly[[/note]] On the same token, though, it's possible that ''The Punisher'' couldn't discuss Karen's state of mourning due to outside factors. Namely, that since ''Daredevil'' is Karen's home show, her reaction to Matt's "death" is something that needs to be saved for season 3 of ''Daredevil'', not for ''The Punisher''. I can see how maybe Lightfoot and Bernthal wanted to do that bit, ultimately the conversation about Matt was probably cut because it would risk having huge impacts on how Karen is portrayed in ''Daredevil'' season 3. From a writing standpoint, it makes sense that they could've explored it, but on a grander scale, it just had to be edited out.

** Since all we saw of the Gnuccis consisted of one group being robbed by low level thugs before being killed, it seems they aren’t that powerful as of yet. Keep in mind, Fisk’s empire is limited to prison, the Hand has been destroyed, Harlem's gangs are in disarray, and the three gangs involved in the murder of Frank’s family have been wiped out. There is always room for new organizations to rise up.

** This is the MCU, so Frank could very well be sporting armor that's infused with the same alien metal used in the manufacturing of the Judas bullets.

** The only thing we know for certain, when correlating this with the other shows, is that ''The Punisher'' takes place after ''The Defenders'' and before ''Daredevil'' season 3, during the time period where Matt is presumed to be dead following the destruction of Midland Circle. This can be deduced from Karen’s general state of mourning and wardrobe choices[[note]]Primarily blacks and blues, the colors of sadness and mourning[[/note]], as well as the fact that if Matt were still alive and kicking, there’s no way he would have sat on the sidelines once Lewis publicly threatened Karen on the radio.[[note]]Remember that he was tipped into freakout mode when the Hand kidnapped Karen, and his immediate reaction to Sowande threatening the heroes' loved ones was to immediately run to Karen's office[[/note]] How long after ''The Defenders'' that the events of ''The Punisher'' take place, though, is harder to tell. At best, it's probably a few weeks, since the Empire State Building is lit up in red during the first episode when Frank is working on the construction site (much like it was in Danny's last shot in ''The Defenders''), while in episode 2, Ellison can be seen holding a newspaper that's headlined "Chaos Under the Streets."

*** Why does she get to do whatever she needs to defend herself but other people don't? Bystanders in Marvel New York have an even worse time than her on a general basis. Compared to the average bystander, Karen at least has a bunch of superheroes or an ex-Marine with a bunch of guns there to save her if something happens to her. Besides PTSD is really pushing, she recovers fast seen with her chatting with Foggy after he just saved her from the thugs at Elena's place, she was friendly with hobo Frank despite their last reunion ending with him executing a guy and she even wrote an editorial about how strong people in New York are after being kidnapped by ninjas. Not everyone breaks down in real life either. The character who keeps supporting the Punisher is gonna be against guns unless you are a reporter that deliberately provoke criminals because she used guns before? Yes it's kind of crazy to think that Karen is suddenly a FragileFlower when she willfully risks her life for the truth no matter how many time people got hurt for it.

*** As I said, by real-world standards, Karen ''should'' have severe PTSD from all of the above incidents. She certainly had it after killing Wesley (because there's no other explanation for why she'd be having nightmares of Fisk coming to kill her right after the shooting). The way she acts, though, is probably chalked up to the fact that in the world of fiction, characters are supernaturally resilient to trauma so that they can continue to be active participants in the plot, that is, unless the PTSD is crucial to the plot or a character's personality (like with Frank or with Jessica Jones). It's just like Matt recovers from nasty knife wounds and concussions rather quickly, or Frank's ability to keep fighting despite all his injuries here, and we all accept it. As for the gun control debate, well, [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment that's a whole can of worms to be saved for another thread.]]

* Perhaps I wildly misunderstood her arc, but why would Madani [[spoiler:choose to join the CIA after what's happened to her? Her entire plot in the first season shows how the CIA in this universe is morally bankrupt and horrible. When Mahoney offered her the gun and badge and she declined, I thought she was going to go off fishing or something, not start running black ops.]]

[[/folder]]

* The police at the station had run her through the system and confirmed her identity. Even if they eliminated the officers, it would still be logged in the system that she was one of their last three checks right before they went silent. She was a loose end that could potentially lead back to who she was working for.

** The police at the station had run her through the system and confirmed her identity. Even if they eliminated the officers, it would still be logged in the system that she was one of their last three checks right before they went silent. She was a loose end that could potentially lead back to who she was working for.

!!! Season 2

** This had been similarly acknowledged when Russo was hiring operatives for the ambush on Dinah's SWAT team, as he told them "There's not much of anything I can do about a YouTube video of you guys opening up on a bunch of Iraqi civilians."

[[/folder]]

** It's never said out loud, but the show seems to strongly imply that Rawlins assumed Frank leaked the video because of their personal conflict. If Rawlins' judgment was clouded by his bitterness toward Frank, it might also explain why he didn't realize someone other than Frank had filmed it since Frank is in the video. Or there had been so many tortures and killings that he couldn't recall the details of that one, and didn't look at it closely enough to see who was on screen. No one in the government who saw the video recognized his voice either, so evidently the masks and yelling were effective disguises.

** Frank Castle has been considered dead for months. Not to mention, when Frank first met Sarah, it was when he was when he had the hipster look. He shaved it ''after'' his first encounter with Sarah (but before he went to visit Wolf), so that's another point in Frank's favor.

** Since Russo founded Anvil after his discharge, and this was no more than two to three years ago, it's still a relatively new company. As CEO / Owner / founder, he'd naturally still be in a position to be glad handing and preening to make the company look attractive... and he's still close enough to the field that his recruits (such as they are) would still see him as one of them. It would only be as the Company grows that and Russo becomes less of a 'soldier' that he'd need a middle man on that side, and if Anvil doesn't have too many contracts, he'd still be able to manage them personally.
*** In addition to the above, Russo is a sociopath and, like Frank, enjoys a good fight. He's the type who wouldn't mind getting his hands dirty even if it wasn't good business.

** Senators do not typically get Secret Service. The exceptions are when they’re running for President, when they happen to have an immediate family who served as president/vice president (like Hillary Clinton), when they’re travelling overseas, or if they’re leadership (Speaker of the House, Senate Leader, etc). You could make a case that since there was indeed a threat against the Senator and Karen, hiring private security would not be out of the question or Secret Service would indeed get involved. You might even have the NYPD or the New York State Police on hand. What is ridiculous is that the private security they did hire were wearing uniforms. For the kind of money I assume is changing hands for a premium outfit like Anvil, and to have them in an environment where they are guarding and essentially staffing a high profile Senator who is sensitive about the appearance of hired security, those guys would be plain clothes/wearing cheap suits.
** Senator Ori has probably denied the need of a Secret Service detail in order to keep up the public image that he is strong against gun violence and does not want to rely on guns as part of his message. The Anvil contract, that can be buried and, being a private organization, Russo can claim that the ''Bulletin'' hired him to protect Karen Page. And the low number of guards is intentional: Russo is treating this as a honeypot, much like earlier in the season. Basically, Russo is setting up Senator Ori as bait for Lewis, because Frank will go where Lewis will go, and that will give Russo an opening to take Frank out. Once the dust settled, Russo was probably planning to unleash backup support for the Senator's campaign, but that didn't work out because Madani caught on to the fact that he was the one who killed Sam.

*** It should also be noted that Sarah saw Wolf shoot David after shouting "he has a weapon". She knew David didn't have a weapon and wasn't threatening anyone, not to mention that the reason why David was shot in the first place was because he uncovered very dangerous information, so Sarah has good reason to be skeptical of law enforcement at this point.

*** Except she should be kinda/sorta mad at him for how he basically turned her into an accessory to murder. Hell, the show kinda glossed over the fact that Karen didn't part from Frank on good terms in ''Daredevil'' season 2 either.
*** Well Frank sort of saved her boyfriend in ''Daredevil'' season 2 finale. That might have redeemed Frank in Karen's eyes in that he was there to provide backup for Matt once Elektra was taken out, assuming Matt told her the exact details of what happened on the roof. Karen has used people to fulfill her goals (including Frank, in the course of trying to redeem herself for killing Wesley) and other people (like Fisk and Frank) have used Karen as a pawn in fulfilling their goals, and those usually ended up getting people killed. She is probably in a perpetual state of anger and sorrow that she's been since losing Matt.
*** Karen is relieved to see Frank because it’s been a while, and she’s glad he’s still alive. Despite the unpleasantness of their final interaction in ''Daredevil'' Season 2, Karen still cares about Frank on a personal level, and she mourned him when she thought he’d died in the boat explosion. Her relief here isn't one of “Oh yay, I get to work with Frank again!” it's actually one of "I'm relieved that, unlike Matt, at least Frank hasn't gotten himself killed since I last saw him." It's also worth noting that Karen is fairly cold and distant throughout most of their initial conversations, clearly wary of getting involved in whatever he’s up to. It’s only when she learns Frank has been compromised that she agrees to help him. All risks and former unpleasantness aside, Karen will never hesitate to help people– whether that be Frank, Matt, or anyone else she cares about– and that character trait is in full effect here.
** It's surprising that Karen didn’t get angry at him about Wolf, because she clearly knows he did it. But at the same time, she also knows by this point that he’s going to kill, no matter what. She’s sad, disappointed, but probably not actually surprised. And that, coupled with her own grief over losing Matt, is another thing that factors into her “I want there to be an after for you” speech. She knows there’s no way to stop Frank from killing now, while he’s still seeking justice, but she desperately wants him to stop eventually.

** It’s hard to be sure exactly how long after ''The Defenders'' that this show is taking place. It’s a minimum of six months after the end of ''Daredevil'' season 2, depending on how long it took Frank to find and finish off those last few stragglers from the gangs. But then again, they never said exactly how long after ''Daredevil'' season 2 the events of ''The Defenders'' took place. Less than six months, definitely, based on the outdoor scenes. ''Daredevil'' ended at Christmas, and neither ''The Defenders'' nor ''The Punisher'' look like they're set in the summer. There's snow on the ground during ''The Defenders'' when Matt and Jessica are walking to John Raymond's brownstone. There's also snow on the ground when Frank tries to assassinate Rawlins at the mansion, and Lewis’s dad and Curtis mention how cold it is outside. It doesn’t seem like it should still be winter, but it also doesn’t seem like it should be the ''next'' winter already, either.
** The only thing we know for certain is that ''The Punisher'' takes place during the time in between ''The Defenders'' and ''Daredevil'' season 3 where Matt is presumed to be dead following the destruction of Midland Circle. We know this from Karen’s general state of mourning and wardrobe choices[[note]]Primarily blacks and blues, the colors of sadness and mourning[[/note]], as well as the fact that if Matt were still alive and kicking, there’s no way he would have sat on the sidelines once Lewis publicly threatened Karen[[note]]Remember that he was tipped into freakout mode when the Hand kidnapped Karen, and his immediate reaction to Sowande threatening the heroes' loved ones was to immediately run to Karen's office[[/note]]. How long after ''The Defenders'' that the events of ''The Punisher'' take place, though, is harder to tell. Could be a few weeks. Though more likely, it's a week or two afterwards, since the Empire State Building is lit up in red in Matt's memory in the first episode when Frank is working on the construction site, and in episode 2, Ellison can be seen holding a newspaper copy headlined "Chaos Under the Streets."
** 11 months appears to be the time gap from ''Daredevil'' season 2 to ''The Punisher'' season 1, given Madani's remark in the first episode about Schoonover's death and the boat explosion happening "last year", the November setting of ''The Punisher'', and ''Daredevil'' season 2 ending at Christmas. It probably took until about April for Frank to finish off the gangs who were at the park, which means he spent about four months of time on the road hunting down targets (especially factoring in all the cross-country driving he must have done) and then retired to work on the construction site.

*** Realistically, Ellison's response to the threat from the terrorist who writes specifically to Karen should have been, “Let’s let the FBI handle it. Do whatever they say, and wait for them to tell us what to do.”
*** Of course, there’s no way the FBI would greenlight Karen's plan to antagonize the bomber. That’s not how they deal with these kind of people. Anyone who's read enough books by FBI profiler John Douglas will know that the FBI way of doing things in this sort of case is to stroke their ego, give them a temporary platform and then reel them in like fish.

*** Realistically, Ellison's response to the threat from the terrorist who writes specifically to Karen should have been, “Let’s let the police handle it. Do whatever they say, and wait for them to tell us what to do.”
*** My biggest question is what would Matt think of her choices here?

** Karen was a lot closer with Matt than with Frank, not to mention being on the verge of starting a relationship with Matt. She knew Matt as Matt Murdock, considered Matt's lawyer life as his real life, and saw how being Daredevil was ruining that. Frank has no real life. And Karen doesn’t fully approve anyway. She would prefer Frank be doing something else, but she's kinda resigned to the fact that it's pointless to try convincing him that. Put it another way, Karen is just hoping that Matt doesn’t wind up dead, in prison, maimed, psychotic, or disbarred, whereas the best that Frank can really hope for is “not dead yet.”

*** As I said, by real-world standards, Karen ''should'' have severe PTSD from all of the above incidents. She certainly had it after killing Wesley (because there's no other explanation for why she'd be having nightmares of Fisk coming to kill her right after the shooting). However, she doesn't act like someone who should have PTSD. Probably because in the world of fiction, characters are supernaturally resilient to trauma so that they can continue to be active participants in the plot, that is, unless the PTSD is crucial to the plot or a character's personality (like with Frank or with Jessica Jones). It's just like Matt recovers from nasty knife wounds and concussions rather quickly, or Frank's ability to keep fighting despite all his injuries here, and we all accept it. As for the gun control debate, well, [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment that's a whole can of worms to be saved for another thread.]]

*** She should be mad at Frank because he is a killer. They split on bad terms because Frank is a killer. You don't remember the scenes of Karen crying because Frank killed two people with a knife in that diner?
*** Karen's a killer, even Matt is a killer, why would she feel bad Frank killed people that tried to kill him? because she got her involved? She does that too when on the rope. The diner was not the last moment they spent together either he saved her from the colonel later even if she is not that happy about it.
*** Matt is not a killer. And Midland Circle was technically special circumstances given the Hand leaders would never be held back by a jury.

** Karen was a lot closer with Matt than with Frank, not to mention being on the verge of starting a relationship with Matt. She knew Matt as Matt Murdock, and saw how being Daredevil was ruining what she viewed as his real life. Frank has no real life. And Karen doesn’t fully approve anyway. She would prefer Frank be doing something else, she just knows that trying to convince him of that is pointless. Put it another way, Karen is just hoping that Matt doesn’t wind up dead, in prison, maimed, psychotic, or disbarred, whereas the best that Frank can really hope for is “not dead yet.”

** Maybe when he started feeling threatened about the black ops he found. He probably had them all wired in before he faked his own death.