History Headscratchers / TalesOfTheAbyss

29th May '16 3:15:32 PM icelandicc
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*** First of all, it's stated very early in the game (by Ramdas) that Luke would have come of age by the time he turned twenty. Second, Luke is only ''mentally'' seven years old. He's still physically seventeen (or nineteen at point in time in question), and I cannot think of a reason why they'd wait until Luke is ''mentally'' 18 for his coming-of-age ceremony. After all, I think most of the characters agree that Luke has matured immensely since the beginning of the game; specifically Guy, as stated if you talk to him in the cathedral in Daath when [[spoiler:Luke is thinking over whether or not he wants to sacrifice his life to neutralize the miasma]].

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*** First of all, it's stated very early in the game (by Ramdas) that Luke would have come of age by the time he turned twenty. This makes sense since twenty is also the coming-of-age in Japan, and as such is a much more important age there than eighteen. Second, Luke is only ''mentally'' seven years old. He's still physically seventeen (or nineteen at point in time in question), and I cannot think of a reason why they'd wait until Luke is ''mentally'' 18 eighteen for his coming-of-age ceremony. After all, I think most of the characters agree that Luke has matured immensely since the beginning of the game; specifically Guy, as stated Guy. He even mentions it directly if you talk to him in the cathedral in Daath when [[spoiler:Luke is thinking over whether or not he wants to sacrifice his life to neutralize the miasma]].
29th May '16 2:16:17 PM icelandicc
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***First of all, it's stated very early in the game (by Ramdas) that Luke would have come of age by the time he turned twenty. Second, Luke is only ''mentally'' seven years old. He's still physically seventeen (or nineteen at point in time in question), and I cannot think of a reason why they'd wait until Luke is ''mentally'' 18 for his coming-of-age ceremony. After all, I think most of the characters agree that Luke has matured immensely since the beginning of the game; specifically Guy, as stated if you talk to him in the cathedral in Daath when [[spoiler:Luke is thinking over whether or not he wants to sacrifice his life to neutralize the miasma]].
16th Mar '16 3:57:33 PM OmegaMetroid
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** Considering that the Score is quite literally Lorelei's memories of the future, it's very possible that it does indeed change based on deviations from it, at least in regards to smaller details. As to the foretold end of the world, the point is that Van was planning to destroy the world to "defy" the Score, regardless of whether or not Luke was created; it's only Luke's creation that allowed enough room for them to defy the original Score and prevent it. This change, in turn, propagated into the new Score, as soon as Lorelei noticed it. That's my take on it, at least.
16th Mar '16 3:38:19 PM OmegaMetroid
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** That's all well and good, but let's not mince words here: [[spoiler: Anise]] is treated like dirt because she's a girl. Girls are treated badly by fandoms because HetIsEw and HoYay is the best and a lot of people who voice their hatred of her seem to be girls. [[DoubleStandard If [[spoiler: Anise]] was a boy, of if Guy was the one with this subplot, there would be no butthurt in the fandom about this]]. But the people who slam [[spoiler: Anise]] forget that she is still a '''soldier''', and Jade and Tear both show that soldiers are trained to tune out their personal problems. They also forget that [[spoiler: Anise is still really a child]]. She sees Tear belitting Luke constantly for his complaints, long after he reforms. That does send a bit of a message that says "don't talk about your problems". The rest of the party can come off as unapproachable, particularly Jade. Plus, for what it's worth, when would she be able to say anything? They're constantly running around [[DistressedDude saving Ion]], trying to stop the war, lowering the land, and generally saving the world and whatnot, there wasn't really an appropriate time for her to say anything. Also, I know I noted this when I originally replied to this topic, but [[spoiler: Anise]] is the roughest on traitors or potential traitors. She took the longest to forgive Luke, and was the first to voice doubts about [[spoiler: Guy]] when he confessed to originally working with the BigBad. [[spoiler: Anise]] was also easily the hardest on Spinoza and stated flat-out that they shouldn't trust him and are foolish for doing so. She actively tries to make sure she has a punishment by trying to get the party to be as hard on traitors as she is, but they're not taking the hint. Also, considering the fact that they didn't really start dropping hints until almost halfway through the game, it makes me wonder just how long she'd actually been spying for Mohs. She's a dreadful liar and she only makes up an excuse to send off a letter ''once''. I think the Party forgave [[spoiler: Anise]] because A) she's [[spoiler: still a kid]]. B) they need her abilities. C) [[spoiler: losing Ion was absolutely crushing for her since she was in love with him]]. D) they gave Luke a second chance and he completely reformed. E) [[spoiler: Anise]] is one of the very, very, very few people in Auldrant who agrees with their plans. F) [[spoiler: Anise]] was genuinely, deeply sorry. G) They're already pretty forgiving anyway since they just forgave [[spoiler:Guy for working with Van secretly and planning to murder Luke]] and Spinoza, who's betrayal was just as bad as hers because while [[spoiler: Anise was inadvertently responsible for Ion's death, Spinoza is directly responsible for the deaths of Sync, Iemon, Cathy, and Tamara as well as countless others in Sheridan. He also put the whole entire world in danger by tattling to Van]]. There are probably a lot more reasons that contributed to her being forgiven like that.

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** That's all well and good, but let's not mince words here: [[spoiler: Anise]] is treated like dirt because she's a girl. Girls are treated badly by fandoms because HetIsEw and HoYay is the best and a lot of people who voice their hatred of her seem to be girls. [[DoubleStandard If If]] [[spoiler: Anise]] [[DoubleStandard Anise]]]] [[DoubleStandard was a boy, of if Guy was the one with this subplot, there would be no butthurt in the fandom about this]]. But the people who slam [[spoiler: Anise]] forget that she is still a '''soldier''', and Jade and Tear both show that soldiers are trained to tune out their personal problems. They also forget that [[spoiler: Anise is still really a child]]. She sees Tear belitting Luke constantly for his complaints, long after he reforms. That does send a bit of a message that says "don't talk about your problems". The rest of the party can come off as unapproachable, particularly Jade. Plus, for what it's worth, when would she be able to say anything? They're constantly running around [[DistressedDude saving Ion]], trying to stop the war, lowering the land, and generally saving the world and whatnot, there wasn't really an appropriate time for her to say anything. Also, I know I noted this when I originally replied to this topic, but [[spoiler: Anise]] is the roughest on traitors or potential traitors. She took the longest to forgive Luke, and was the first to voice doubts about [[spoiler: Guy]] when he confessed to originally working with the BigBad. [[spoiler: Anise]] was also easily the hardest on Spinoza and stated flat-out that they shouldn't trust him and are foolish for doing so. She actively tries to make sure she has a punishment by trying to get the party to be as hard on traitors as she is, but they're not taking the hint. Also, considering the fact that they didn't really start dropping hints until almost halfway through the game, it makes me wonder just how long she'd actually been spying for Mohs. She's a dreadful liar and she only makes up an excuse to send off a letter ''once''. I think the Party forgave [[spoiler: Anise]] because A) she's [[spoiler: still a kid]]. B) they need her abilities. C) [[spoiler: losing Ion was absolutely crushing for her since she was in love with him]]. D) they gave Luke a second chance and he completely reformed. E) [[spoiler: Anise]] is one of the very, very, very few people in Auldrant who agrees with their plans. F) [[spoiler: Anise]] was genuinely, deeply sorry. G) They're already pretty forgiving anyway since they just forgave [[spoiler:Guy for working with Van secretly and planning to murder Luke]] and Spinoza, who's betrayal was just as bad as hers because while [[spoiler: Anise was inadvertently responsible for Ion's death, Spinoza is directly responsible for the deaths of Sync, Iemon, Cathy, and Tamara as well as countless others in Sheridan. He also put the whole entire world in danger by tattling to Van]]. There are probably a lot more reasons that contributed to her being forgiven like that.
9th Mar '16 5:41:51 PM Technicolourtardis
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** Just how nice Luke is to Ion from the beginning is used during the Ortion Caverns plotline to show the difference between Luke and Asch (and Anise). Luke is willing to let Ion come with him through Cheagle Woods (instead of using the excuse to get rid of Tear by sending her back with him) because Ion wants to come (since it's part of his job), and Luke tells Ion that he won't be a burden and shouldn't think of himself that way. No wonder Ion thinks this is the nicest thing anyone's ever said to him even if Luke was RaisedByWolves and doesn't put it in nice-sounding langauge. By contrast, when Ion asks to join the party in Ortion Cavern (since this is stuff he needs to know too) Asch says that he can't because he'd be a useless burden and orders him to StayInTheKitchen (or the Tartarus). For extra wall banger points, Anise mistakes this incredibly insulting and inconsiderate act on Asch's part for Asch being ''nice'', cementing Anise's status as a HorribleJudgeOfCharacter who is worthless when it comes to protection Ion and his interests.
** People often forget the reason that Luke was in such a hurry on the way to Akzeriuth: ''People were dying'' and Van had told Luke to hurry there so that he could save them. Luke knows that the god-generals aren't actually going to kill Ion: they haven't before, they need him and Arietta would kill them (as far as he knows). Thousands of people dying of poison in Akzeriuth vs. one person who will be perfectly safe waiting slightly longer for Luke and Van to come rescue him. Do the math. Not to mention that Ion was sickly anyway, and breathing in Akzerith's miasma not only couldn't have been good for him, the trip was tiring him out and slowing the rest of them down as innocent people in Akzeruith died.
** Not to mention that it was pretty much entirely Ion's own fault that he got captured this time. It makes a lot more sense when you find out his real age, but at the time it must have been completely infuriating to find out that the guy you just rescued from his own people, and who you know had to be rescued even before that, had just wandered off with some random soldier without telling anyone about it.
** Also worth noting that there's a difference between Luke being a {{Jerkass}} and Luke being a spoiled, self-centered brat. He's a brat back in the manor, but he's friendly to both Guy and Van and while he's whiny to his parents, he's not outwardly cruel. But then he gets hypperresonance'd away from his manor, and he turns into an actual {{Jerkass}} which makes sense considering ''who'' he's with at the time. Tear he'd be mean to because she tried to kill his beloved Master Van and then kidnapped him. Of course he'd be displeased. Anise he hardly talks to until after he meets Ion, and he's mean to her because she helps Jade kidnap him...again. Jade, of course, is [[DeadpanSnarker Jade.]] Jade is almost as much of a jerk as Luke is, we just forget about it because he's a) much more hilarious, b) much more dignified, and c) much more awesome. Luke's mean to the townspeople in Engeve but only after they accuse him of stealing. Oh, and there's Mieu, but since Luke [[spoiler: literally has the mind of a seven-year-old]] and Mieu TastesLikeDiabetes, it kind of makes sense he'd have no respect for the creature at all. Once Guy comes back into the party Luke's still pretty nice to him, or as nice as Luke can be. He's a [[spoiler: literal AdultChild]] in enemy territory, out of his manor for the first time ''ever'', and he's surrounded by kidnappers, snarkers, and accusations. Doesn't it make sense that sweet, respectful Ion would be the only one to get a pass from Luke?
** I always understood Luke's dislike for Mieu, aside from that voice, being because Mieu's actions are what caused all the troubles for the Cheagles and the Ligers to begin with. If not for Mieu, Luke would not have had to [[spoiler:kill the Liger Queen,]] with whom he wholeheartedly sympathized with. Recognized again after [[spoiler:the destruction of Akzeriuth, when the party admonishes and walks away from Luke.]] Mieu tries to comfort Luke by telling him [[spoiler:they've done the same thing]] and so he understands. Luke gets very agitated and begins crying. ~Thundaknawckle

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** Just how nice Luke is to Ion from the beginning is used during the Ortion Caverns plotline to show the difference between Luke and Asch (and Anise). Luke is willing to let Ion come with him through Cheagle Woods (instead of using the excuse to get rid of Tear by sending her back with him) because Ion wants to come (since it's part of his job), and Luke tells Ion that he won't be a burden and shouldn't think of himself that way. No wonder Ion thinks this is the nicest thing anyone's ever said to him even if Luke was RaisedByWolves and doesn't put it in nice-sounding langauge. By contrast, when Ion asks to join the party in Ortion Cavern (since this is stuff he needs to know too) Asch says that he can't because he'd be a useless burden and orders him to StayInTheKitchen (or the Tartarus). For extra wall banger points, Anise mistakes this incredibly insulting and inconsiderate act on Asch's part for Asch being ''nice'', cementing Anise's status as a HorribleJudgeOfCharacter who is worthless when it comes to protection Ion and his interests.
** People often forget the reason that Luke was in such a hurry on the way to Akzeriuth: ''People were dying'' and Van had told Luke to hurry there so that he could save them. Luke knows that the god-generals aren't actually going to kill Ion: they haven't before, they need him and Arietta would kill them (as far as he knows). Thousands of people dying of poison in Akzeriuth vs. one person who will be perfectly safe waiting slightly longer for Luke and Van to come rescue him. Do the math. Not to mention that Ion was sickly anyway, and breathing in Akzerith's miasma not only couldn't have been good for him, the trip was tiring him out and slowing the rest of them down as innocent people in Akzeruith died.
** Not to mention that it was pretty much entirely Ion's own fault that he got captured this time. It makes a lot more sense when you find out his real age, but at the time it must have been completely infuriating to find out that the guy you just rescued from his own people, and who you know had to be rescued even before that, had just wandered off with some random soldier without telling anyone about it.
** Also worth noting that there's a difference between Luke being a {{Jerkass}} and Luke being a spoiled, self-centered brat. He's a brat back in the manor, but he's friendly to both Guy and Van and while he's whiny to his parents, he's not outwardly cruel. But then he gets hypperresonance'd away from his manor, and he turns into an actual {{Jerkass}} which makes sense considering ''who'' he's with at the time. Tear he'd be mean to because she tried to kill his beloved Master Van and then kidnapped him. Of course he'd be displeased. Anise he hardly talks to until after he meets Ion, and he's mean to her because she helps Jade kidnap him...again. Jade, of course, is [[DeadpanSnarker Jade.]] Jade is almost as much of a jerk as Luke is, we just forget about it because he's a) much more hilarious, b) much more dignified, and c) much more awesome. Luke's mean to the townspeople in Engeve but only after they accuse him of stealing. Oh, and there's Mieu, but since Luke [[spoiler: literally has the mind of a seven-year-old]] and Mieu TastesLikeDiabetes, it kind of makes sense he'd have no respect for the creature at all. Once Guy comes back into the party Luke's still pretty nice to him, or as nice as Luke can be. He's a [[spoiler: literal AdultChild]] in enemy territory, out of his manor for the first time ''ever'', and he's surrounded by kidnappers, snarkers, and accusations. Doesn't it make sense that sweet, respectful Ion would be the only one to get a pass from Luke?
** I always understood Luke's dislike for Mieu, aside from that voice, being because Mieu's actions are what caused all the troubles for the Cheagles and the Ligers to begin with. If not for Mieu, Luke would not have had to [[spoiler:kill the Liger Queen,]] with whom he wholeheartedly sympathized with. Recognized again after [[spoiler:the destruction of Akzeriuth, when the party admonishes and walks away from Luke.]] Mieu tries to comfort Luke by telling him [[spoiler:they've done the same thing]] and so he understands. Luke gets very agitated and begins crying. ~Thundaknawckle
1st Jan '16 10:55:09 PM Boobah
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*** "In fact, even the audience doesn't have any reason to doubt [[spoiler:Van about anything until Akzeriuth]] happened."
### Because [[SarcasmMode clearly]] Tear was the sort of person who just randomly decides her brother needs killing.
### It's a complete coincidence that Van's most powerful subordinates are constantly getting in the way.
### Speaking of coincidences, Luke's twin who also fights using the exact same style Van trained Luke in that somehow Van has never talked about.
### Who hangs with the aforementioned subordinates.
### Plus the way Van [[SarcasmMode subtly]] plays on Luke's desires for validation and freedom to sell him on the plan.
18th Oct '15 2:36:47 AM catmuto
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** I do not recall, was it really mentioned that Yulia was the one to hide the Score? If she did, perhaps she hid the seventh one to protect the people of the horror that will befall them. A misguided attempt at protecting someone, when telling them would likely have helped make them go after the decision 'Should we follow this? ''Can'' this Score be averted?' instead of blindly following it.

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** I do not recall, was it really mentioned that Yulia was the one to hide the Score? If Or that she was the one who wrote it down. Actually, wasn't it said that she read the Score, but someone else wrote it down? But if she did, perhaps she hid the seventh one to protect the people of the horror that will befall them. A misguided attempt at protecting someone, when telling them would likely have helped make them go after the decision 'Should we follow this? ''Can'' this Score be averted?' instead of blindly following it.
18th Oct '15 2:35:08 AM catmuto
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to:

** I do not recall, was it really mentioned that Yulia was the one to hide the Score? If she did, perhaps she hid the seventh one to protect the people of the horror that will befall them. A misguided attempt at protecting someone, when telling them would likely have helped make them go after the decision 'Should we follow this? ''Can'' this Score be averted?' instead of blindly following it.
13th Oct '15 12:27:35 PM catmuto
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So, Luke cleanses the world of the miasma and then the kicker comes at the end. After defeating Van and setting Lorelei free, Lorelei thanks Luke for ''preventing the foretold end of the world in the Score''. This implies that ''all'' the events, including the creation of Luke and all the other replicae and the deviations in the Score, ''were'' part of the Score to begin with! Here are the two questions that rub the head.\\
'''A)''' Were the events in the story honestly supposed to be seen as having been predicted, after all, including Luke's birth, his rise against his mentor and ultimately setting Lorelei free? '''B)''' Is the Score... flexible? Changeable? It's supposedly foretelling the tiniest of details, but ''if'' one goes by the idea that Luke's creation deviated the Score from its original path, does this mean the Score changes itself into potential, multiple branches to make sure it still gets to the same end? If it doesn't, how come 'Luke' is mentioned to do something in the Score, when - according ''to'' said Score - he had already died in the miner's city long ago?

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So, Luke cleanses the world of the miasma and then the kicker comes at the end. After defeating Van and setting Lorelei free, Lorelei thanks Luke for ''preventing the foretold end of the world in the Score''. This implies that ''all'' the events, including the creation of Luke and all the other replicae and the deviations in the Score, ''were'' part of the Score to begin with! Here are the two questions that rub the head.\\
with!\\
'''A)''' Were the events in the story honestly supposed to be seen as having been predicted, after all, all; including Luke's birth, his rise against his mentor and ultimately setting Lorelei free? '''B)''' Is the Score... flexible? Changeable? It's supposedly foretelling the tiniest of details, but ''if'' one goes by the idea that Luke's creation deviated the Score from its original path, does this mean the Score changes itself into potential, multiple branches to make sure it still gets to the same end? If it doesn't, how come 'Luke' is mentioned to do something in the Score, when - according ''to'' said Score - he had already died in the miner's city long ago?
13th Oct '15 12:25:26 PM catmuto
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Added DiffLines:

[[/folder]]

[[folder: The Score (And Its Flexbility)]]

* Something that always bugged [[Tropers/CatMuto this troper]] is the fact that the story revolves around The Score of the world and it also includes how the world will eventually die, so Van is trying to ScrewDestiny by deviating from the foretold Score and prevent this end from happening. Fair enough, we have hints off and on about what the Score says ('Luke' goes to the miner's city and dies there, a war will later break out between Kimlasca and Malkuth and the eventual fall of Malkuth, with the later fall of Kimlasca and humanity dying out) and we even have moments of the game pointing out to us how they ''are'' deviating from the Score.\\
'Luke' surviving the events in Akzeriuth, because he's a replica that was not foretold in the Score, which resulted in delaying the war apparently and halting the imminent prosperity that Kimlasca would obtain, after winning said war. And Kimlasca (and Daath, to an extent) is willing to kill Luke, to get back to the Score and continuing to follow it. Also, the whole part of the Outerlands beginning to fall and continuing on in the Qliphoth.\\
Things start to get muddy as you proceed in the game. Ion reads the Planet Score in the volcano, which tells of 'Luke' using a forbidden technique to cleanse the world of the miasma that is plaguing them currently. And the forbidden technique requires 10.000 lives of replicae, though this is done in the story and not actually mentioned to be part of it in the Score itself. (And even the game lampshades that the Tower of Rem is situated practically where Akzeriuth, the miner's city, was originally located, so Luke would still be doing something in the correct location that would kill him...)\\
So, Luke cleanses the world of the miasma and then the kicker comes at the end. After defeating Van and setting Lorelei free, Lorelei thanks Luke for ''preventing the foretold end of the world in the Score''. This implies that ''all'' the events, including the creation of Luke and all the other replicae and the deviations in the Score, ''were'' part of the Score to begin with! Here are the two questions that rub the head.\\
'''A)''' Were the events in the story honestly supposed to be seen as having been predicted, after all, including Luke's birth, his rise against his mentor and ultimately setting Lorelei free? '''B)''' Is the Score... flexible? Changeable? It's supposedly foretelling the tiniest of details, but ''if'' one goes by the idea that Luke's creation deviated the Score from its original path, does this mean the Score changes itself into potential, multiple branches to make sure it still gets to the same end? If it doesn't, how come 'Luke' is mentioned to do something in the Score, when - according ''to'' said Score - he had already died in the miner's city long ago?
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