History Headscratchers / TalesOfSymphoniaDawnOfTheNewWorld

** I think that the main problem in the timeline was not caused by Dawn of the New World but rather by Symphonia; it was Symphonia that stated mana was necessary for all living things to thrive including spirits, elves, half-elves, humans, monsters, animals and plants, and that the stability of the planet requires large amounts of it as well as a link (The World Tree). This of course doesn't gel well with Phantasia, in which the tree is dead and mana has long been gone from the world (Hence the loss of magic and the disappearance of the Summon Spirits) however everyone else seems to be fine and the world is still in one piece. Dawn of the New World does its best to explain why this happened, it justifies humans, elves, monsters, animals, plants and the planet still existing by having Ratatosk remove that need from these kinds of life forms, but he explicitly states that spirits, being forms of life made specifically of mana still require it (Hence they have died out in the time of Phantasia), it also explains why Niflheim has no influence in Aselia despite in having a heavy influence on Sylvarant, Tethe'Alla and the Unified World.

[[WMG: Why all the hate for this game?]]

* While seeing the 'strongest MC ever' topic back in the Graces page I remembered Emil's game suffering from 'escort title' curse, budget cutting and generally getting a ton of ****, and it bugs me inmensely. For every guy who loves it (I do) ten others hate it with a passion. Why is that? (This comes from someone who liked ''Majora's Mask'' and ''Chrono Cross'' more than its prequels)
** Easy, short answer: the Symphonia fanboys were expecting ''Tales of Symphonia 2: Lloyd cuts things'', and instead they got ''Tales of Symphonia Monsters: Joker''. (Yo dawg, I heard you liek Pokemans, so we put a monster-catch system on your Tales so you can catch monsters while you fight monsters)
** Long, hard answer: Brace yourself:
*** Characters: Emil is whiny, then batshit crazy, then whiny again, apologizes a lot, abuses flashbacks in Chapter 1, verbally thrashes Lloyd and then is too easily forgiven (likewise with Marta and Colette) Speaking of Marta, she is too clingy, dreamy, has bursts of stupidity in the worse moments and well, some people like their female heroines strong and curvy (Sheena, Tear, Judith...) Then the villains: Alice and Decus were not credible villains (toy rapier? baby talk with cute nicknames? friggin VISIBLE bloomers? You are in more danger of the cops being called on you than getting a spell to the face when being near her) About Decus... he's so flamboyantly ambiguous that you need to be reminded all the time that he has the hots for a girl. And Brute, the guy who could have been the villain in a Yu-gi-oh season and not stand out at all. There isn't much hate about Tenebrae or Richter, but that is because they are basically Furry Jade Curtiss and Kratos Aurion 2.0 Version.
*** Plot: See, there is a problem here: the first game, like in ''Final Fantasy X'', ended up wrapping up pretty much everything perfectly, so for the sequel they either needed to dig out a forgotten menace or to make up a totally new one. So, instead of retconning the hell out of the first game (like they did with Destiny 2) they invented a new Summon Spirit and made all those new problems around the world be related to it. Where was it during the first game? It is like asking where the hell was Vegnagun hidden during Yuna's first journey. If you have to take up a new villain or threat out of the ether to do a sequel, then the sequel is NOT necessary. An example of sequel well done is ''Golden Sun'': either continue the plot just where you left it (only feasible with Cliffhanger Endings) or give their world ample time for a new threat to be formed. For Symphonia 2 to have been a good sequel they should have let hundreds of years pass (but again, that sequel already exists: it's Tales of Phantasia...)
*** Music: Lots of recycled music, from dungeon backgrounds to character themes. The new tracks don't have the same epicness or earwormyness to it. Really, this is one of the lesser bads.
*** Gameplay: Oh god, where to begin. Only two new human characters, plus a new guest that's only available for a couple hours (most of them pertaining to a sidequest) The Symphonia 1 cast is severely nerfed: fixed levels, fixed equipment, and they come and go as they please. Players need to use the new monster system to avoid having a hard time, but the catch is: they are not controllable, can't use items, and to make them comparable to Emil and Marta you need a bunch of quite rare accesories. And the AI system is awful, many steps back from Abyss and Symphonia 1. No explorable overworld, recycled dungeons, recycled puzzles (that now use motion! yay!) Many people think that the Katz Quest dungeons should have been full fledged, storyline dungeons... and not an attempt to pad out the game's duration. See below.
*** Duration: 30 hours for your first playthrough, definitely less than the 50-60 hours you'll need to squish all the juice out of Symphonia 1, Abyss, or even Vesperia, which as you know was being developed at the same time. For completionists, doing all the Katz quests and filling up your Monster Book should take at least another 10-20 hours, but it is the same mind-numbing tedium as playing hours and hours of Blitzball just to unlock a weapon's power. Not something a sane person would do if they dislike the monster system so much to begin with.
** Remember, the above is NOT this troper's opinion, just the general consensus I gathered (I personally love the game) The conclusion is that you need a very specific mentality to like a game like this. To avoid the 'sequels suck' curse and see the game for what it is. Can be also applied to the games you mentioned.
* Original poster here. Still think Emil needs a hug. Opinions? (Yo guys, no I don't speak with myself, this is a cut paste of a Real Life conversation)

[[WMG: Courage is the -- yeah we get it already.]]

* You know, aside from the first chapter (and maybe the second), "Courage is the magic that turns dreams into reality" really isn't used that much. Yet the way people complain about it, you'd think it was a freaking VerbalTic.
** Because it's used a ''LOT'' in the first chapter. And often gets an annoying flashback interrupting dialogue/monologue.
*** Most notably, because he flashes back to this saying and event mere SECONDS after it happens. Several times. It gets really annoying.

[[WMG: The complete lack of introduction of everyone past Regal]]
* Every original cast member introduced after Regal is sort of glossed over with a "(name) what are you doing here? You helped us on our journey of world regeneration!" without a word about who they were in that journey, what their life story is or anything, whereas we were beat over the head with Collette, Raine, Genis, and Regal. Sheena bugged me in particular, seeing as how there was a mention of one of the original party members being a summoner, but then when she does summon very soon after her introduction, there isn't a mention of it anywhere. No one marvels at or explains it. In contrast, Collete had mentioned she had a friend who went into Ruin Mode. Then, when we meet Raine and she flips out at the ruins, there are several conversations about said Mode. Don't get me wrong, they could easily have turned this into irritating {{Continuity Porn}}, but, as an example, without any sort of hint as to the relationship between Regal and Presea or what happened to her in her past, any new player is left completely in the dark as to why she came along in the first place.
** To be fair, [[ContinuityLockout the latter is to be expected when one plays a sequel first.]]

<<|ItJustBugsMe|>>

*** This is what I figured. Marta's from Palmacosta which was a region under Desian occupation for several centuries. Considering what invasion/occupation forces of a similar nature have a tendency to do to [[fridgehorror local women in those situations]]...yeah, wouldn't be surprising if many Palmacosta families had elven in their lineage now. It'd also explain why they never address it because it's probably a very touchy subject if that is the case.

** In the first game, Sheena and Lloyd talk about how one needs Elven blood somewhere in your family tree to even do any kind of magic (and explicitly states that Sheena's ability to Summon means she had an Elven ancestor somewhere way back in her family history). Presumably, Marta does as well.

** [[InSovietRussiaTropeMocksYOU In Soviet Russia, Light-Frog names YOU!]]

* Tenebrie and Aqua are the only centurions that actually make an appearance in the story. The other six don't get so much as a cameo. It's not because they're still dormant, because the whole game's about waking them up. And worse, it's not even hand-waved; someone briefly wonders why, but then quickly drops it and it never comes up again. Did the budget run out before they could get to animating and finding voice actors for the rest?

** Simply put, Richter's willpower is too strong to be overtaken by the power of the Cores. It's stated that his willpower is so strong that ''he'' can affect the ''Cores'' instead of the other way around, which is why Aqua falls blindly in love with him. Also, a correction: Colette and Zelos are ''not'' immune to the Centurion Cores. The reason why Lloyd takes it upon himself to collect them is because he is the only one in his party who ''is'' immune (because he has the blessing of Martel as the namer of the new World Tree).

In the first Symphonia, Kratos explicitly states that Mithos made the Derris Emblem himself by "fusing his soul with the fabric of space". Seeing as Kratos was probably there, you'd think he'd know what he's talking about it. Now, in this game, Ratatosk apparently gave Mithos the Derris Emblem. Did I miss something, or is this an actual plot hole?

** ''VideoGame/TalesOfPhantasia'' occurs about 4,000 years after the end of ''TalesOfSymphonia'', in the same world.

**** Martel and Sylph both explicitly state in VideoGame/TalesOfPhantasia that the Spirits will die without mana. Perhaps there's still some residual mana left in Cless' time period. After all, it's only been about 100 years since Yggdrasill died at that time, and there's residual mana sustaining the worlds (which need it a whole lot more) 4000 years after the Giant Kharlan Tree died in TalesOfSymphonia. Granted, Mithos was managing things so that this would be the case, but still.

*** When you get right down to it, the ending has a meta explanation. They just plain wrote themselves into a corner when they made mana vital for all life in TalesOfSymphonia when it clearly wasn't in VideoGame/TalesOfPhantasia. This game's plot basically had to close that hole. Still, Ratatosk's dialog when he explains what he's about to do indicates that there was probably life on the planet before he arrived. He claims that removing the mana dependency will return the world to "how it was meant to be". While it might seem a little lame for humanity to get off so lightly, remember who revived the tree (arguably ''Ratatosk's kid'') in the last game, and who [[spoiler: brings it back to life]] in VideoGame/TalesOfPhantasia. Still, the ending of this game is a lot less upbeat considering that[[spoiler: when Ratatosk cold-bloodedly murders Aster because "it will only be a matter of time before you humans kill the new tree" he is absolutely correct.]]

<<|ItJustBugsMe|>>

*** OK. That was... forceful. I didn't see much nerfing going on with anyone but Sheena, really. Everyone else seemed just as good or better than they were in the previous game. (I mean, look at Lloyd's Mystic Arte, for one.) You really hate the idea of Mons in the game, don't you.

*** Yeah. Okay. Whatever. You done? Just let it aaaaall out.
**** Actually, the characters do level up. They just do so in three or four level chunks (maybe more, I watched my brother play)when Emil/Marta reach certain levels. But yeah, between that and the evolution levels the mons go through, the leveling besides the two mains is really weird.

*** Depends on what you mean by "nerfing." Naturally, if they can't reach levels they could in the original, that's literally nerfing (making them less powerful). But if they can't do it, and there's absolutely no ''need' to, it's not the nerfing the internet likes to rant about (ruining a character's usefulness). Seriously, Lloyd, Colette, Genis, and Raine are awesome whenever they show up, and the other four at least pull their weight compared to the enemies fought (just not against a hypothetical absurdly overleveled Emil or Marta).
** Ahem. Anyway. Any other ideas as to why there was so much GameplayAndStorySegregation with Sheena's summons?
*** My guess is, she can't concentrate on it as easily in battle as she used to (represented by her going into Over Limit in the original), so when there isn't a monster trying to tear out her throat right in front of her, she can focus easily enough. Maybe. Granted, I haven't seen the second summoning yet, so I'm mostly {{asspull}}ing. On an aside: dude, don't derail things like that, especially not with TheyChangedItNowItSucks. That's just not cool. Take it elsewhere.

** This troper won't pretend that all of Ratatosk's magibabble made total sense to her but it seems like they were trying to explain why mana isn't as important to people in TalesOfPhantasia. Most people don't even seem to know that Yggdrassil exists, much less that it's the source of all mana! I think the reasoning is as follows:

**** Martel and Sylph both explicitly state in TalesOfPhantasia that the Spirits will die without mana. Perhaps there's still some residual mana left in Cless' time period. After all, it's only been about 100 years since Yggdrasill died at that time, and there's residual mana sustaining the worlds (which need it a whole lot more) 4000 years after the Giant Kharlan Tree died in TalesOfSymphonia. Granted, Mithos was managing things so that this would be the case, but still.

*** When you get right down to it, the ending has a meta explanation. They just plain wrote themselves into a corner when they made mana vital for all life in TalesOfSymphonia when it clearly wasn't in TalesOfPhantasia. This game's plot basically had to close that hole. Still, Ratatosk's dialog when he explains what he's about to do indicates that there was probably life on the planet before he arrived. He claims that removing the mana dependency will return the world to "how it was meant to be". While it might seem a little lame for humanity to get off so lightly, remember who revived the tree (arguably ''Ratatosk's kid'') in the last game, and who [[spoiler: brings it back to life]] in TalesOfPhantasia. Still, the ending of this game is a lot less upbeat considering that[[spoiler: when Ratatosk cold-bloodedly murders Aster because "it will only be a matter of time before you humans kill the new tree" he is absolutely correct.]]

** ''TalesOfSymphonia'' is a prequel to ''TalesOfPhantasia''.
** ''TalesOfPhantasia'' occurs about 4,000 years after the end of ''TalesOfSymphonia'', in the same world.
** In ''TalesOfPhantasia'', the world is still working pretty well, and they still very much rely on mana. The summon spirits (except [[ChuckCunninghamSyndrome Celcius]]) all are clearly still around and still doing whatever it is summon spirits do.