History Headscratchers / ReturnOfTheJedi

29th Dec '17 7:52:46 PM Ferot_Dreadnaught
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** Perhaps they brought him along to translate for the Ewoks and convert them to their side, the Rebels being GenreSavvy and knowing that UnderdogsNeverLose. A better question would be: why do they need a full-sized android to be their translator in the first place? Yes, he would be useful for diplomatic functions where they need a life-size representative (like Jabba's palace) but surely there's a handheld translator out there somewhere. Luke's X-Wing has a translator for R2.

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** Perhaps they brought him along to translate for the Ewoks and convert them to their side, the Rebels being GenreSavvy and knowing that UnderdogsNeverLose. A better question would be: why do they need a full-sized android to be their translator in the first place? Yes, he would be useful for diplomatic functions where they need a life-size representative (like Jabba's palace) but surely there's a handheld translator out there somewhere. Luke's X-Wing has a translator for R2.
16th Dec '17 8:40:10 AM CrypticMirror
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*** Not to mention, as our own history shows quite clearly, that rebellion and resistance groups are heavily reliant on gangsters and black marketeers for supplies, support, and intelligence. Blowing up Jabba in his own throne room, or planting a warship in orbit (if the latter was even possible without the Empire cottoning on or wasting resources in such a way), would not only burn their access to Jabba's resources but would make the Rebel Alliance persona non grata with a huge swathe of the Imperial underworld and non-aligned warlords. The long term effects of such an action would be far more deleterious than simply not getting Han. It makes sense to try and inveigle him out or negotiate his release somehow. Even staging a rebellion and prisoner escape on Jabba's barge at the site of a public execution is less of an affront to the black market men than strong arm tactics would be.
7th Dec '17 7:13:02 AM costanton11
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** "Also you would think that the rebels would want to keep the armor as a trophy to tell the remnants of the Empire, "Look what we did to Vader, now surrender or else.", would have made for great propaganda." Luke probably kept that from happening. Vader was his father, after all. I can't imagine it'd feel good to see what is essentially his father's body being paraded around like a trophy (yeah his corpse probably wouldn't be in there but on an emotional level it's still him). So either he hid the body and told the Rebels that Vader went down with the Death Star, or he used his not inconsiderable cred as Hero of the Rebellion (to say nothing of his influence with Leia) to keep Vader's armor from being used as a propaganda piece. Besides, the propaganda value of blowing up TWO Death Stars and murdering the Emperor vastly outweighs the ability to mount Darth Vader's armor on the wall.D

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** "Also you would think that the rebels would want to keep the armor as a trophy to tell the remnants of the Empire, "Look what we did to Vader, now surrender or else.", would have made for great propaganda." Luke probably kept that from happening. Vader was his father, after all. I can't imagine it'd feel good to see what is essentially his father's body being paraded around like a trophy (yeah his corpse probably wouldn't be in there but on an emotional level it's still him). So either he hid the body and told the Rebels that Vader went down with the Death Star, or he used his not inconsiderable cred as Hero of the Rebellion (to say nothing of his influence with Leia) to keep Vader's armor from being used as a propaganda piece. Besides, the propaganda value of blowing up TWO Death Stars and murdering the Emperor vastly outweighs the ability to mount Darth Vader's armor on the wall.D
3rd Dec '17 5:30:46 AM fruitstripegum
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** "Also you would think that the rebels would want to keep the armor as a trophy to tell the remnants of the Empire, "Look what we did to Vader, now surrender or else.", would have made for great propaganda." Luke probably kept that from happening. Vader was his father, after all. I can't imagine it'd feel good to see what is essentially his father's body being paraded around like a trophy (yeah his corpse probably wouldn't be in there but on an emotional level it's still him). So either he hid the body and told the Rebels that Vader went down with the Death Star, or he used his not inconsiderable cred as Hero of the Rebellion (to say nothing of his influence with Leia) to keep Vader's armor from being used as a propaganda piece. Besides, the propaganda value of blowing up TWO Death Stars and murdering the Emperor vastly outweighs the ability to mount Darth Vader's armor on the wall.

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** "Also you would think that the rebels would want to keep the armor as a trophy to tell the remnants of the Empire, "Look what we did to Vader, now surrender or else.", would have made for great propaganda." Luke probably kept that from happening. Vader was his father, after all. I can't imagine it'd feel good to see what is essentially his father's body being paraded around like a trophy (yeah his corpse probably wouldn't be in there but on an emotional level it's still him). So either he hid the body and told the Rebels that Vader went down with the Death Star, or he used his not inconsiderable cred as Hero of the Rebellion (to say nothing of his influence with Leia) to keep Vader's armor from being used as a propaganda piece. Besides, the propaganda value of blowing up TWO Death Stars and murdering the Emperor vastly outweighs the ability to mount Darth Vader's armor on the wall.D
* So, Luke kills many people over the course of the trilogy (including the thousands who died when the Death Star blew up), yet he's required to passively watch while the Emperor murders his friends and crushes the Rebellion, or he'll turn to the Dark Side?
26th Nov '17 7:17:39 PM costanton11
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** He's a robot. He doesn't have free will. He * can't* go against his programming. They just had him say it in the same tone as, "That would be rude!" because they thought it would be funnier that way, and because he probably does find it rude. Han lashes out like he does because because he's frustrated.

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** He's a robot. He doesn't have free will. He * can't* ''can't'' go against his programming. They just had him say it in the same tone as, "That would be rude!" because they thought it would be funnier that way, and because he probably does find it rude. Han lashes out like he does because because he's frustrated.
26th Nov '17 7:17:00 PM costanton11
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Alternatively, the line could be taken to mean that there's one thing C-3PO is programmed for, and that's acting as a protocol droid. He's programmed for that specifically, so pretending to be a deity would be contrary to acting as a neutral mediator. So, basically, it's his way of saying, "But that's not my job!"

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** Alternatively, the line could be taken to mean that there's one thing C-3PO is programmed for, and that's acting as a protocol droid. He's programmed for that specifically, so pretending to be a deity would be contrary to acting as a neutral mediator. So, basically, it's his way of saying, "But that's not my job!"
26th Nov '17 7:16:41 PM costanton11
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26th Nov '17 1:57:23 PM costanton11
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** The Emperor is capable of stopping Luke's swing even without his lightsaber. It would have been... inconvenient... if the Emperor stopped it by himself, when his faithful right hand man was right next to him.
*** Plus it was only one moment of brief anger. As Vader would know, it takes more than one single act to turn one to the Darkside. Remember when he killed the Tusken Raiders? That didn't automatically turn him evil. Wouldn't be too good if he'd let Luke de-stabilise the entire Empire and still refuse to join him.
24th Nov '17 9:12:58 PM costanton11
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*** Consisering that the whole plan was to "mess with him" and the rebels didn't start a crime war when they killed him (the Hutts didn't like it much but they contented themselves to a few death marks on a few specific people) he obviously can't have been that untouchable.

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*** Consisering Considering that the whole plan was to "mess with him" and the rebels didn't start a crime war when they killed him (the Hutts didn't like it much but they contented themselves to a few death marks on a few specific people) he obviously can't have been that untouchable.



*** The OP hear. This isn't the place to debate the darkside and how it can be used sparingly, so I'll accept that answer. I've also seen analysis videos that suggest Luke could've killed the Emperpr without falling, which is why Vader stopped him. But what scene in Revenge of the Sith shows the Jedi code saying that? Capture was an at least somewhat viable option for Windu, and it's generally agreed that Windu made the right choice, and the old Jedi order fell because they had stagnated and become too sure of their code and unready to face new evil.

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*** The OP hear. This isn't the place to debate the darkside dark side and how it can be used sparingly, so I'll accept that answer. I've also seen analysis videos that suggest Luke could've killed the Emperpr Emperor without falling, which is why Vader stopped him. But what scene in Revenge of the Sith shows the Jedi code saying that? Capture was an at least somewhat viable option for Windu, and it's generally agreed that Windu made the right choice, and the old Jedi order fell because they had stagnated and become too sure of their code and unready to face new evil.



** Palpatine doesn't think of it as a battle, he thinks of it as a slaughter, he finds it inconceivable that his trap could result in anything other than a total and crushing victory for his forces. He's arrogant and loves melodramatic statements. He wants to show Luke his friends are dead, his cause is lost, and that Luke could do nothing but watch. He wants Luke to feel the pain as it happens. Palpatine is not a logical and rational man, he's a guy who revels in being a bad guy and enjoys the powertrip it gives him.

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** Palpatine doesn't think of it as a battle, he thinks of it as a slaughter, he finds it inconceivable that his trap could result in anything other than a total and crushing victory for his forces. He's arrogant and loves melodramatic statements. He wants to show Luke his friends are dead, his cause is lost, and that Luke could do nothing but watch. He wants Luke to feel the pain as it happens. Palpatine is not a logical and rational man, he's a guy who revels in being a bad guy and enjoys the powertrip power trip it gives him.



** Well first off, I believe that Word Of God would state that before Vader's ultimate redemption, he is not actually "Anakin" anymore, but a hollow shell of Anakin consumed by hatred, grief, etc. so Palpatine can easily be forgiven for not expecting his puppet, who hasn't ever directly disobeyed him after his conversion, to go ape-nuts and throw him into a reactor. Second, the "zapping to death" wasn't the true intention. Palpatine was attempting to use pain and torment to drive Luke to fight and kill Vader and become an even stronger puppet. He doesn't consider Vader because he is trying to replace him, in essence, with an even more powerful Skywalker. A bit of a gamble, no doubt, and one that definitely didn't pay off for him, but the way he saw it, either A) He got a brand new, insanely powerful diciple or B) Luke would be killed, Vader would remain powerful, and the Rebel Alliance would have lost it's great leader. Not insanely stupid, just a plan backfiring horrendously due to Palpatine's underestimation of the "Light" side of the Force, Luke's resolve, and the good left inside of Anakin.

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** Well first off, I believe that Word Of God would state that before Vader's ultimate redemption, he is not actually "Anakin" anymore, but a hollow shell of Anakin consumed by hatred, grief, etc. so Palpatine can easily be forgiven for not expecting his puppet, who hasn't ever directly disobeyed him after his conversion, to go ape-nuts and throw him into a reactor. Second, the "zapping to death" wasn't the true intention. Palpatine was attempting to use pain and torment to drive Luke to fight and kill Vader and become an even stronger puppet. He doesn't consider Vader because he is trying to replace him, in essence, with an even more powerful Skywalker. A bit of a gamble, no doubt, and one that definitely didn't pay off for him, but the way he saw it, either A) He got a brand new, insanely powerful diciple disciple or B) Luke would be killed, Vader would remain powerful, and the Rebel Alliance would have lost it's great leader. Not insanely stupid, just a plan backfiring horrendously due to Palpatine's underestimation of the "Light" side of the Force, Luke's resolve, and the good left inside of Anakin.



** When Palpatine is engaged in the act of torturting his enemy to death, he's as blissfully detached as a man shooting up. That's how dangerously sadistic that fucker is. Probably Vader could have walked up behind him banging cymbals and it wouldn't have distracted him. Also, Palpatine may not have much of a problem with Vader eventually killing him (it appears to be a longstanding tradition with those weirdos) but he doesn't expect him to betray and destroy the Sith order itself in doing so, defeating the purpose.

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** When Palpatine is engaged in the act of torturting torturing his enemy to death, he's as blissfully detached as a man shooting up. That's how dangerously sadistic that fucker is. Probably Vader could have walked up behind him banging cymbals and it wouldn't have distracted him. Also, Palpatine may not have much of a problem with Vader eventually killing him (it appears to be a longstanding tradition with those weirdos) but he doesn't expect him to betray and destroy the Sith order itself in doing so, defeating the purpose.



*** Someone is unfamiliar with military logistics and beauracracy. Its a single shuttlecraft making a routine delivery and transmitting a routine code and clearance. The military in Real Life does not track every single vehicle coming and going that closely, and keep in mind, the only ones who encounter the shuttle are the Executor, which is essentially on guard duty. As far as guards are generally concerned - especially on a ship as big as the Executor - once a transport has given its clearance, its out of their hands. Tracking one small shuttle is entirely beneath them. They're generally not going to keep track of it, and assume that if there's a problem, the people the shuttle is delivering its stuff to will call them. Since no one is expecting this shuttle period, that call's never going to come in. And also, this is a single shuttle going missing in the same system that the Death Star is being built in. Y'know, the planet-sized explodo-moon. The sheer amount of traffic coming and going likely means that tracking all of the inbound and outbound flights is going to be a complete niightmare for the logistics officers. One shuttle passing through their perimeter that flashes its code just doesn't matter.

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*** Someone is unfamiliar with military logistics and beauracracy.bureaucracy. Its a single shuttlecraft making a routine delivery and transmitting a routine code and clearance. The military in Real Life does not track every single vehicle coming and going that closely, and keep in mind, the only ones who encounter the shuttle are the Executor, which is essentially on guard duty. As far as guards are generally concerned - especially on a ship as big as the Executor - once a transport has given its clearance, its out of their hands. Tracking one small shuttle is entirely beneath them. They're generally not going to keep track of it, and assume that if there's a problem, the people the shuttle is delivering its stuff to will call them. Since no one is expecting this shuttle period, that call's never going to come in. And also, this is a single shuttle going missing in the same system that the Death Star is being built in. Y'know, the planet-sized explodo-moon. The sheer amount of traffic coming and going likely means that tracking all of the inbound and outbound flights is going to be a complete niightmare nightmare for the logistics officers. One shuttle passing through their perimeter that flashes its code just doesn't matter.



** ''If the Emperor leaked the code'' Ah-ah. WRONG. The Emperor didn't leak the code. This was never said or even really hinted at. In fact, the Rebels were using a perfectly legitmate code; older, but otherwise perfectly fine.

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** ''If the Emperor leaked the code'' Ah-ah. WRONG. The Emperor didn't leak the code. This was never said or even really hinted at. In fact, the Rebels were using a perfectly legitmate legitimate code; older, but otherwise perfectly fine.



** Then again, some sources indicate that certain emotions are inherently conntected to some powers, and that the emotion for Lightning is "I hate you specifically so much I want you to die twice." If that's the case, then Palps may not have been able to turn off the flow, and draws attention to a fundamental flaw in Dark Side practice (loss of control).

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** Then again, some sources indicate that certain emotions are inherently conntected connected to some powers, and that the emotion for Lightning is "I hate you specifically so much I want you to die twice." If that's the case, then Palps may not have been able to turn off the flow, and draws attention to a fundamental flaw in Dark Side practice (loss of control).



*** Remember what happened when the cyborg General Grievous hit Obi-Wan? He shrugged it off. This is a cyborg figure who can punch hard enough to dent starfighter armour, (and had done so just earlier) so it's not unreasonable to think that Palpatine just might have blocked it using the Force.

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*** Remember what happened when the cyborg General Grievous hit Obi-Wan? He shrugged it off. This is a cyborg figure who can punch hard enough to dent starfighter armour, armor, (and had done so just earlier) so it's not unreasonable to think that Palpatine just might have blocked it using the Force.



*** I found her picking off the imperial on the top of the walker from the ground, far more impressive. One shot.

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*** I found her picking off the imperial on the top of the walker from the ground, far more impressive. One shot.shot.
* In the Luke/Vader duel in Rot J, why the hell did Vader lie down and flail his hand around before Luke cut it off? That just looked really bad and I think that someone with mechanical limbs would still be able to stand up after Luke began the berserker attack.
** Partly because he's not trying to actually beat Luke. He needs Luke to totally give into his anger and at that point, the best course of action was to really let Luke just go nuts. Another interpretation is that he was simply overpowered. He wasn't like Grievous, his mechanical limbs were a hindrance (Palpatine deliberately had his limbs designed to be flawed to keep him in check) and he connection to the Force was reduced. Luke on the other hand was younger, fitter and stronger.
* Was Luke really serious about giving C-3PO and R2-D2 to Jabba the Hutt?
** I think he probably knew from the start that Jabba wouldn't agree to the deal, but keep the droids anyway. It was probably an excuse to get 3PO inside in case they needed a translator and get R2 in so he could give Luke his lightsaber.
*** It was all about getting R2 on the inside. As much as I love 3PO, he really had no business going on that mission.
* Interesting point, in Rot J Ben says "It was they who had to save you. You achieved little by rushing back prematurely, I fear." Except that this is totally untrue, because while Luke might have been a burden R2 was essential in their escape, and thus Luke 'did' save his friends in a way.
** ....did you miss the part where Luke was hanging by one hand, with only one hand, underneath Cloud City and would have died if it weren't for his friends saving his life, as a direct result of running off prematurely?
*** Did you read the part where it was R2 (who arrived with Luke) who repaired the hyperdrive?
*** Obi-Wan probably meant that Luke personally had not achieved much. R2 may have been helpful, but Luke can't really take much credit for that.
*** Luke could take credit for it, since without him, R2 would be uselessly sitting in a swamp. If Luke had obeyed Yoda, the hyperdrive would still be broken, the escape plan would be for nothing, and all of his friends would likely be dead.
*** Obi-Wan wasn't talking about R2. He was talking about Luke. You know, the word "you." "You(as in, you, specifically, Luke) achieved little." R2's presence was incidental. Luke himself accomplished precisely dick.
*** Keep in mind Obi Wan and Yoda weren't right about everything (see: Anakin's continued existence in Vader). Yeah, Luke got himself into a lot of trouble, but as mentioned, if Luke hadn't gone back R2 couldn't have accomplished whatever. Yoda was warning against attachment, namely to Luke's friends, but much of the point of the original trilogy is that love can be a highly effective motivator for Jedi, something Yoda hadn't really bought into. So from a certain point of view, no, Luke had no business going back. From Luke's point of view, his going back, once again, allowed R2 to save the day.
* The Cargo Cult bit in Return of the Jedi brings up an intriguing bit of Fridge Logic, given 3P0's master, Luke, was in danger of death at the time and requested he go along with it to free them. 3P0 responds with "It's against my programming to impersonate a deity!" Just how big a problem is deity-impersonation among Protocol Droids for them to have their priorities this way around?
** Well, there might be lots of hunter-gatherer level civilizations in the galaxy, I guess droid engineers didn't want their robots to be used by unscrupulous individuals who might want to take over one of them with a shiny metal god.
*** Except that why the heck would an exploration team bring along a protocol unit. They seem to be quite flimsy (a blaster bolt only shorted out R2, but another blew 3PO clean apart), require a huge amount of maintenance (oil baths and that, but you never see R2 in one), and would surely be of marginal utility (a good sound-synthesizer is a nice addition, but a big beast is better put off with a big pointy stick). It would probably have been more logical for C-3PO to have said "impersonating a deity is not part of my programming" or "I don't know how, that was never included in my programming".
*** You'd bring a protocol droid around if you thought there was some sort of intelligent society there, and you might need to translate. I mean, hell, look at Return Of The Jedi right there. The Ewoks used a primitive dialect, but C-3PO was able to translate, and it's because of him they were able to form their little alliance. It's probable that the 'don't impersonate a god' programming came about the first time something like this happened and the primitives ignored the organic explorer/negotiator and just worshipped his golden metal man instead.

Alternatively, the line could be taken to mean that there's one thing C-3PO is programmed for, and that's acting as a protocol droid. He's programmed for that specifically, so pretending to be a deity would be contrary to acting as a neutral mediator. So, basically, it's his way of saying, "But that's not my job!"
*** Maybe, but this was a combat mission (they should at least have painted him or had him wearing fatigues), and they obviously weren't expecting to meet any intelligent natives (they acted surprised when they did), so the only reason I can see for bringing him along is to translate for R2 (whom should also have been painted), and even then they should have been able to get away with something much smaller, simpler and sturdier than C-3PO.
** He's a robot. He doesn't have free will. He * can't* go against his programming. They just had him say it in the same tone as, "That would be rude!" because they thought it would be funnier that way, and because he probably does find it rude. Han lashes out like he does because because he's frustrated.
* Regarding Darth Vader's armor I have a problem with what they did with it at the end of Return of the Jedi. I don't have a problem with it being thrown in a fire to be burned, that is a nice throwback to what they did to dead Greek heroes, but the problem I do have is that a simple bonfire could burn Vader's armor. Throughout the Expanded Universe Vader's armor has been through crap that makes being set on fire look like child's play, meaning that it is state of the art armor that does its job of protecting the wearer; so how exactly does a simple bonfire of all things finally do in Vader's armor? Also you would think that the rebels would want to keep the armor as a trophy to tell the remnants of the Empire, "Look what we did to Vader, now surrender or else.", would have made for great propaganda.
** While I doubt there are any canon explanations for this, I have a practical one. The Expanded Universe was written after Return of the Jedi. In the Main 3 films, Vader's suit serves as little more than a massive respirator, so based on that depiction, it makes perfect sense.
** There's quite a bit of difference between taking a few blaster shots or bomb blasts and sitting in the middle of a roaring bonfire for several hours.
*** Except that a blaster can take chunks out of a wall, whereas you probably couldn't do the same with a blowtorch in a matter of hours. Given this, taking a few blaster bolts is actually going to be more of a struggle than taking a few hours on a bonfire.
*** Kevlar might stop bullets, but it's still flammable, and can still be cut. You're talking about two entirely different types of damage. Just because something can stop one type doesn't mean it'll stop another. It doesn't have hit points where Blaster type damage takes off more than Fire type.
** Vader's armor was built to be able to resist anything short of explosions and lightsaber blows, a lightsaber being a blade made of pure plasma energy should be thousands of degrees and explosions are self explanatory in regards to their heat. They FAR OUTRANK a simple bonfire in terms of heat.
** A) Armor Does Not Work That Way. Armor being resistant to directed energy does not mean that every single piece of that armor is going to cover every single inch of Vader's body to the point that it would be impossible for any heat at all to get inside. Also keep in mind that Vader's armor did not resist being hit by lightsabers; Luke winged him once and inflicted visible pain to Vader's arm, and he sliced clean through one of Vader's arms without the blade even slowing down. Vader's armor has also never shown particular resistance to blaster bolts; when he deflected Han's shots, he was using Force Deflection. B) This was a prepared funeral. Even if Vader was wearing head-to-toe ultra-super-duper invincible armor that wouldn't let a lick of flame touch a bit of his skin, Luke could have removed pieces of it so that he could burn.
** The last entry said ANYTHING SHORT OF, not that the armor WAS RESISTANT to lightsaber blows. Anything short of a lightsaber blow shouldn't even be able to hurt Vader's armor unless that impact hits the armor repeatedly, so what Luke does to Vader is understandable given the armor's limits. No read up about what Vader's armor is made of, Vader's gloves are durable enough to deflect a blaster bolt, he wouldn't have needed to use the Force to stop it. What was said about it being a prepared funeral makes sense, especially since Luke could have carved holes into it with his lightsaber so that the fire could burn the armor inside-out. The point about the armor being used as propaganda, regardless of any wishes Luke may have had to respect the visage of his father, not being brought up still seems pretty odd.
*** Except that blaster bolts don't reflect off normal surfaces, if they did they wouldn't have done such a number on the walls in Cloud City. Reading the wookieepedia article, the only bits of actual 'armor' in the whole suit are the helmet, pauldrons/upper chest section and the boots, the rest is described as just blaster resistant, which means that it'll probably take a few pistol shots, but would be unlikely to offer much protection against anything more powerful than a pistol.
** Regardless of anything said about Vader's armor in the Expanded Universe, the fact still remains that up until Return of the Jedi, Vader's armor had shown no resistance to anything more than ordinary space suit. Therefore, the only canon that comes into play is the original canon of the first three films. So, we can conclude the Vader's armor burning in the bonfire is entirely appropriate, unless you expect Lucas to rewrite all three movies whenever the Expanded Universe adds a new layer to the story.
*** Maybe its powered armor? So while powered it can withstand all sorts of crap, and when unpowered a few hours in a fire will break it down?
*** According to the Expanded Universe Vader's armor does run on a battery source, but that is mainly for his prosthetic limbs and button panels on his suit that regulate his health, drug doses, heartbeat, etc., and pretty much unrelated to his mechanical lungs that have to function all the time. It recharges using personal chambers that Vader uses and even has a means of recharging through solar energy and Vader always has a personal battery on hand just in case he needs it. The armor Vader used could have been weakened due to its lack of power, with its wearer being dead and all.
*** Sorry, armor weakened due to lack of a wearer, how does that one work, I mean, armor is supposed to 'protect the user' right?
*** Well it is a common element in fiction that powered armor isn't as powerful when it isn't actually electronically on. Though the actual armor itself if it were for example bullet proof while on should be bullet proof while off as well, but the point still stands that armor is better worn than being hung up to dry.
*** Not as powerful, yeah, but unless it uses shields then it ought to be as 'tough' off as on.
** Lucas has all but stated his intention outright never to stop revising his films anyway, so what does it matter? Maybe three or four editions from now the armor won't be burnt.
** "Also you would think that the rebels would want to keep the armor as a trophy to tell the remnants of the Empire, "Look what we did to Vader, now surrender or else.", would have made for great propaganda." Luke probably kept that from happening. Vader was his father, after all. I can't imagine it'd feel good to see what is essentially his father's body being paraded around like a trophy (yeah his corpse probably wouldn't be in there but on an emotional level it's still him). So either he hid the body and told the Rebels that Vader went down with the Death Star, or he used his not inconsiderable cred as Hero of the Rebellion (to say nothing of his influence with Leia) to keep Vader's armor from being used as a propaganda piece. Besides, the propaganda value of blowing up TWO Death Stars and murdering the Emperor vastly outweighs the ability to mount Darth Vader's armor on the wall.
24th Nov '17 4:50:29 PM costanton11
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* "At that close range, we won't last long against those Star Destroyers," Ackbar said of the Rebel Fleet engaging the Imperial Navy. But wasn't he proved wrong by the Rebel Fleet's overwhelming ''victory'' over the Imperial Navy, Death Star be damned? By the end of the Battle of Endor, when the fleet flees the Death Star's explosion, we see a huge line of Alliance frigates, corvettes, and capital ships getting the hell out of Dodge to escape the blast radius... but conspicuously absent from the picture (even at other angles) are any Star Destroyers or Interdictors. And even if they were simply out of frame, we skip from the explosion to the celebration, as if all remaining Imperials had suddenly given up and left without continuing the battle. Since by all indications there ''was'' a turning point in the naval battle --taking the DS out of the picture, we see the Rebel Fleet sink more Imperial vessels than the reverse; Home One wasn't anywhere near as damaged as its opposite number; Ackbar had the luxury to pick his targets instead of having to concentrate on defense; and there was the Alliance's obvious starfighter supremacy that the Empire couldn't match-- doesn't this mean that the Rebel Fleet was actually ''superior'' to the Imperial Navy, it just needed to be pushed hard against the wall to realize this?

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* "At that close range, we won't last long against those Star Destroyers," Ackbar said of the Rebel Fleet engaging the Imperial Navy. But wasn't he proved wrong by the Rebel Fleet's overwhelming ''victory'' over the Imperial Navy, Death Star be damned? By the end of the Battle of Endor, when the fleet flees the Death Star's explosion, we see a huge line of Alliance frigates, corvettes, and capital ships getting the hell out of Dodge to escape the blast radius... but conspicuously absent from the picture (even at other angles) are any Star Destroyers or Interdictors. And even if they were simply out of frame, we skip from the explosion to the celebration, as if all remaining Imperials had suddenly given up and left without continuing the battle. Since by all indications there ''was'' a turning point in the naval battle --taking the DS out of the picture, we see the Rebel Fleet sink more Imperial vessels than the reverse; Home One wasn't anywhere near as damaged as its opposite number; Ackbar had the luxury to pick his targets instead of having to concentrate on defense; and there was the Alliance's obvious starfighter supremacy that the Empire couldn't match-- doesn't this mean that the Rebel Fleet was actually ''superior'' to the Imperial Navy, it just needed to be pushed hard against the wall to realize this?this?
* Palpatine seems to be acting insanely stupid right before his death. He knows that threats to Anakin's family generally constitute a Berserk Button and knows that Vader will eventually wind up trying to kill him anyway due to the Rule of Two, so why didn't he realize that zapping Vader's own son to death right in front of him would have rather nasty consequences?
** Well first off, I believe that Word Of God would state that before Vader's ultimate redemption, he is not actually "Anakin" anymore, but a hollow shell of Anakin consumed by hatred, grief, etc. so Palpatine can easily be forgiven for not expecting his puppet, who hasn't ever directly disobeyed him after his conversion, to go ape-nuts and throw him into a reactor. Second, the "zapping to death" wasn't the true intention. Palpatine was attempting to use pain and torment to drive Luke to fight and kill Vader and become an even stronger puppet. He doesn't consider Vader because he is trying to replace him, in essence, with an even more powerful Skywalker. A bit of a gamble, no doubt, and one that definitely didn't pay off for him, but the way he saw it, either A) He got a brand new, insanely powerful diciple or B) Luke would be killed, Vader would remain powerful, and the Rebel Alliance would have lost it's great leader. Not insanely stupid, just a plan backfiring horrendously due to Palpatine's underestimation of the "Light" side of the Force, Luke's resolve, and the good left inside of Anakin.
** It's also been heavily implied in Expanded Universe works such as Dark Empire and the Thrawn Trilogy that Palpatine's heavy use of the Dark Side was causing him to age prematurely and just decay in general. This may have affected his reasoning towards the end, causing him to make rash decisions instead of planning things out carefully as he did in the prequel trilogy.
** When Palpatine is engaged in the act of torturting his enemy to death, he's as blissfully detached as a man shooting up. That's how dangerously sadistic that fucker is. Probably Vader could have walked up behind him banging cymbals and it wouldn't have distracted him. Also, Palpatine may not have much of a problem with Vader eventually killing him (it appears to be a longstanding tradition with those weirdos) but he doesn't expect him to betray and destroy the Sith order itself in doing so, defeating the purpose.
* In Return of the Jedi, didn't the Rebels think that a shuttle arriving a top-secret location supposedly holding cargo, then never going where it was supposed to and completely and mysteriously disappearing might be a wee bit suspicious? Also, that the Empire might have ways of tracking a shuttle (like future radar analogues) and might consider investigating said mysterious shuttle?
** The plan was to bomb the place and get out. By the time the Empire smelled something fishy, they should've been blown up.
*** They gave the bomb team several days before the actual Rebel fleet arrived more than enough time for the Empire to investigate a security breach in a top secret area. We, as the viewers, know that Palpatine already knew and was prepared. But the Rebel leaders didn't. From their point of view, how could they imagine that the Empire wouldn't investigate the mysterious shuttle and up security and issue a general alert? The shuttle landed a considerable distance from the bunker, so it's not like they could get in and blow it up before the Empire investigated such an important potential security breach.
*** Someone is unfamiliar with military logistics and beauracracy. Its a single shuttlecraft making a routine delivery and transmitting a routine code and clearance. The military in Real Life does not track every single vehicle coming and going that closely, and keep in mind, the only ones who encounter the shuttle are the Executor, which is essentially on guard duty. As far as guards are generally concerned - especially on a ship as big as the Executor - once a transport has given its clearance, its out of their hands. Tracking one small shuttle is entirely beneath them. They're generally not going to keep track of it, and assume that if there's a problem, the people the shuttle is delivering its stuff to will call them. Since no one is expecting this shuttle period, that call's never going to come in. And also, this is a single shuttle going missing in the same system that the Death Star is being built in. Y'know, the planet-sized explodo-moon. The sheer amount of traffic coming and going likely means that tracking all of the inbound and outbound flights is going to be a complete niightmare for the logistics officers. One shuttle passing through their perimeter that flashes its code just doesn't matter.
*** For starters, this is supposed to be a top-secret project. Also, the Emperor is there, and there would consequently be a huge beefing up of security. Besides, only a small landing pad (not all that much larger than Vader's shuttle) is actually seen on Endor proper. So most of the traffic would not be going there. A shuttle not going anywhere near where it is supposed to be and vanishing mysteriously right near a top-secret project is very suspicious.
*** ''For starters, this is supposed to be a top-secret project.'' Yeah, and they're building a fucking planet. That's going to require a shitton of resources, which is going to require a shitton of transports, which is going to require a shitton of incoming and outgoing flights. It doesn't matter how top secret it is, when you're building a planet its going to require a massive logistics effort, during which one small transport is going to be of minor concern.
*** ''A shuttle not going anywhere near where it is supposed to be and vanishing mysteriously right near a top-secret project is very suspicious.'' Again, if the shield complex on Endor is not expecting an incoming transport, they're not going to asking about one that doesn't show up in the first place. Once the shuttle has given its credentials, its literally out of the Executor's area of responsibility; in Real Life, guards generally only check with the destination of an incoming transport and get clearance for it when its credentials don't check out or there's an inconsistency. And the crew of the Executor is not going to be asking for confirmation from every single transport's destination when you've got thousands of transports coming and going while constructing the giant killer laser moon.
* If the Emperor leaked the code to the Rebels in Return of the Jedi why didn't he just send them a fake code that comes up on Imperial databanks as "You know that Rebel sabotage team we're expecting? Guess who. Go tell Lord Vader and/or the highest ranking officer you can find. Failure to do so immediately will result in very nasty things happening to you. Now scram."? The objective was to ensure that the team accomplished nothing. Being peeled apart by Darth Vader and 500 Stormtroopers is a lotta nothing.
** They didn't need to use a fake code because both Vader could sense Luke's presence on the shuttle. He allowed the shuttle to pass through because they were fully expecting an attack on the shield bunker and had a full legion of troops waiting.
*** OK, but that still doesn't answer the question of why they let them land on Endor rather than just nabbing them with the tractor beam on the Executor while they were still in space.
*** I got the idea that Vader was derailing the original plan for his own purposes. Palpatine dispatched the 501st as a precaution.
** In order to lure the rest of the Rebels there, the plan had to look like it was working. For all the Emperor knows, the strike team is in contact with the rest of the Rebels and waiting on their signal, or at least is watching to make sure they make it to the planet. Capture it right away, and the rest of the Rebels go, "Well, shit, that didn't work, we need another plan," and don't show up for the finely crafted trap.
** ''If the Emperor leaked the code'' Ah-ah. WRONG. The Emperor didn't leak the code. This was never said or even really hinted at. In fact, the Rebels were using a perfectly legitmate code; older, but otherwise perfectly fine.
* When Vader picked up the Emperor, why is it he just kept shooting lightening out of his hands? Wouldn't a better course of action have been to use the Force to trip Vader?
** He seemed to be too surprised to handle the situation effectively. You know how some people and animals lose control of their bladders when they're surprised? It's like that, but for lightning. Also, he couldn't see Vader's legs from his position, while moving something you don't have line-of-sight to seems to take more concentration than moving something you can see. The Emperor didn't have enough time to focus. In any case, the lightning did work- it killed Vader. It's possible that the Emperor felt he couldn't best Vader in a duel, so he decided to take him with him.
*** This troper would like to point out that "the Emperor has Force Lightning Incontinence" is the funniest thing he's run across all day.
** You don't need to see something to use the Force on it. Besides, he demonstrated an ability to think clearly and calmly under life-threatening pressure before. Remember in Revenge of the Sith, where he talks Anakin into backing down when he was at lightsaber point?
*** Presumably Anakin was countering the force push, having the advantage of being firmly braced against the ground instead of suspended in the air. Also, note that Palpatine didn't stop the lightning as he fell, or even try to slow his fall using the Force, implying that Anakin was countering his attempts to save himself.
*** But Palpatine was stronger than Anakin. Before Mustafar he had the potential to be twice as powerful as the Emperor. After that, his power was estimated as at most 80% of Palpatine's.
*** Presumably that's why he got electrocuted, instead of countering it and not dying.
*** Because then Vader would have fallen and squished him.
*** Given that Vader has shown that his grip is so crushing that he can snap a human spine simply by closing his fist tightly, try to imagine how much agony Palpatine was in when Vader's hand was around his neck.
*** Palpatine had gotten a lot older since then, and he was already pretty old to begin with. His mind probably wasn't as good anymore.
** Then again, some sources indicate that certain emotions are inherently conntected to some powers, and that the emotion for Lightning is "I hate you specifically so much I want you to die twice." If that's the case, then Palps may not have been able to turn off the flow, and draws attention to a fundamental flaw in Dark Side practice (loss of control).
*** The emotion for Force-choking someone is "I hate you specifically so much I want you to die twice". The emotion for Force lightning, a far less precise and discriminatory use of the Dark Side, is "I'M SO MAD I'MA GONNA BREAK EVERYTHING URRRAAAGH".
*** This explains why Darth Vader can't use it not just that his cyborg body can't handle it, but he's also way too mopey and tormented inside to indulge in Palpatine's exultant break-everything gleeful rages. Palpatine smiles, cackles, expresses sheer exultant anti-joy at the pleasure of being evil * all the time* ; Vader, by contrast, never seems happy at all.
*** The emotion of pure hate for Force Lightning is exactly true, a similar event occurs when Darth Bane uses lightning on a Jedi in the second Bane novel just when a dying Jedi locks him in a Force-conjured sphere of energy. The lightning rebounds uncontrollably, Bane cannot turn off the power, and he is fried to a crunchy crisp. Only the efforts of one of the best healers in the Star Wars universe bring him back to health - not without much, much labor involved. In the interim, Bane is completely comatose and on the brink of death. Thus, Palpatine was so shocked and angry at Vader's betrayal that the Dark Side flowed forth from his hands like a great spout of rage, unable to be halted.
** This Troper thinks that the metallic nature of Vader's suit conducted Palpatine's lightning back to him and they somehow got locked in a "feedback flow" or something, (like when you put a microphone next to a speaker) which wouldn't stop until one was taken out and was sufficient to kill Vader.
* In Return of the Jedi, why is it that Vader thought that the best way to kill the Emperor was to pick him up while he was shooting lightning and throw him down a big hole? Since Vader's robot arms have super-strength, and seeing as how the Emperor is really old, shouldn't Vader have been able to kill (or at least KO) him with a punch to the back of the head? Granted, it would ruin his dramatic death scene, but still...
** There's still a chance that he could take the punch and start shooting both of them. Do we know for certain that Vader's arms have super-strength? He's never shown bending or crushing anything with his hands.
*** Except Captain Antilles' neck, less than ten minutes into ANH.
** Yes, in several books that are official canon, Darth Vader mentions that his arms are strong enough so that just one can lift a person with no help from the Force. We see him doing that in A New Hope. Also, the Emperor's heavy use of the Dark Side rendered his body physically weak. Vader was also strong enough to snap that starship captain's neck with one hand in A New Hope (the official canon book states that his neck snapped). Given those factors, it is extremely unlikely that a punch to the back of the head from Vader would leave Palpatine conscious.
*** Remember what happened when the cyborg General Grievous hit Obi-Wan? He shrugged it off. This is a cyborg figure who can punch hard enough to dent starfighter armour, (and had done so just earlier) so it's not unreasonable to think that Palpatine just might have blocked it using the Force.
*** Vader had the element of surprise. Grievous did not. Plus Palpatine couldn't stop him from picking him up and tossing him into a giant pit, so it is unlikely he could stop a punch, which is quicker. Or Vader could've just grabbed his neck from behind and snapped it, since it has been confirmed several times that he has the strength needed to do that.
*** True, but let's assume it was a spur of the moment thing where Vader wasn't really thinking clearly.
*** The book version reveals he did think about before acting.
*** Interesting. Can you quote it? Just because he put some thought into what he was doing doesn't mean he was thinking clearly though.
*** Can't quote it, mainly because it's a couple paragraphs long. You just wonder why he didn't go for a method that should've been thought of first.
*** This doesn't make any sense. Just because he had artificial arms that can crush necks doesn't mean he can lift a human being one-handed; those arms are attached to fleshy shoulders. Unless he was capable of unassisted one-handed human-lifting before the augmentation, the join would fail before he got any substantial weight off the ground.
*** Tell that to the starship captain in A New Hope.
*** [[AWizardDidIt Bracing with the Force.]]
** In ''Revenge of the Sith'' he catches Obi-Wan's two-handed lightsaber swing with his off-hand (keep in mind Kenobi is a Jedi master, and an expert at saber combat), and shortly thereafter grabs him by the throat and starts choking him while grasping his arms and almost making him cut his own head off. Before the accident, Darth Vader was already supernaturally strong, and with the added durasteel plating and reinforcement of his skeletal structure, it's no wonder he can pick full grown men up off the ground and throw them across the room without drawing on the Force.
** Because, as Lore Sjöberg said, the most important rule of the Force is "Die in front of Luke".
** Tossing Palpatine down that pit, spewing lightning all the way, also helped set off the chain reaction that nuked the new Death Star. Perhaps Vader wanted to take down not just his master, but as much of the evil the two of them had wrought as possible?
* In ''Return of the Jedi'', Han and Leia get cornered by two stormtroopers while in front of the backdoor to the shield generator. Leia then fires one shot (as the sound effect clearly indicates) at the two stormtroopers and she gets them both. Now, I know stormtroopers are pathetic, but that's pushing it just a bit.
** This may have been Leia's force powers starting to show themselves.
*** No, there were two shots. I remember that scene. One shot we see, then a sound effect as the camera pans away.
*** I found her picking off the imperial on the top of the walker from the ground, far more impressive. One shot.
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