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This isn't a headscratcher. It's just a criticism.
Deleted line(s) 1,5 (click to see context) :
* Why the hell wasn't the kids from the opening gay? And is there any way to answer that question without pointing out the inherit hypocrisy of this movie? "We can make a film where we mock the fanatical anti-gay agenda; but God knows we can't have the Hero be Gay!"
** [[SarcasmMode Why wasn't one of the kids black? Or deaf? or Muslim? Or any other minority?]] First of all, one of the trio ''was'' hinted at being bi-curious, second of all, [[FridgeBrilliance maybe the whole point was]] that the WBC-{{Expy}} ideology of intolerance doesn't just target gays but HatesEveryoneEqually.
*** Because it smells of hypocritism. Lets mock The WBE and their God Hates Fag-nes, but oh! we can't have the protagonists be gay, since that woulödn't sell any tickets. It's like if you made a Blaxploitation film but changed the plot in order to create a scenario where the protagonist was white.
*** But nothing about the movie needs the kids to be gay. They could have been and it would have worked, sure, but simply not having them be gay isn't being intolerant of gays.
*** This. The entire point is that the film is presenting a mockery of the WBC and their attitude as presented in public; It doesn't really require one of the protagonists to be gay since the entire point is that the WBC-expies don't ''really'' hate 'fags', but they loathe ''everything''.
** [[SarcasmMode Why wasn't one of the kids black? Or deaf? or Muslim? Or any other minority?]] First of all, one of the trio ''was'' hinted at being bi-curious, second of all, [[FridgeBrilliance maybe the whole point was]] that the WBC-{{Expy}} ideology of intolerance doesn't just target gays but HatesEveryoneEqually.
*** Because it smells of hypocritism. Lets mock The WBE and their God Hates Fag-nes, but oh! we can't have the protagonists be gay, since that woulödn't sell any tickets. It's like if you made a Blaxploitation film but changed the plot in order to create a scenario where the protagonist was white.
*** But nothing about the movie needs the kids to be gay. They could have been and it would have worked, sure, but simply not having them be gay isn't being intolerant of gays.
*** This. The entire point is that the film is presenting a mockery of the WBC and their attitude as presented in public; It doesn't really require one of the protagonists to be gay since the entire point is that the WBC-expies don't ''really'' hate 'fags', but they loathe ''everything''.
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Dewicking per TRS decision.
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** [[SarcasmMode Why wasn't one of the kids black? Or deaf? or Muslim? Or any other minority?]] First of all, one of the trio ''was'' hinted at being [[BiTheWay bi-curious]], second of all, [[FridgeBrilliance maybe the whole point was]] that the WBC-{{Expy}} ideology of intolerance doesn't just target gays but HatesEveryoneEqually.
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** [[SarcasmMode Why wasn't one of the kids black? Or deaf? or Muslim? Or any other minority?]] First of all, one of the trio ''was'' hinted at being [[BiTheWay bi-curious]], bi-curious, second of all, [[FridgeBrilliance maybe the whole point was]] that the WBC-{{Expy}} ideology of intolerance doesn't just target gays but HatesEveryoneEqually.
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** I think what actually went down in that scene and might make some semblance of sense for his actions was that he never intended to shoot her to begin with. Firing the gun and sending her back inside was all within his plans, as he gave her a useless weapon, and with it, she would appear armed. After attempting to plant it on her, he demanded she run inside. He had no intention of shooting her himself. Instead, he sought to plant the gun in her hands and send her back into the house, incapable of retaliatory fire (in case she changed her mind) on the odds that another ATF member would see her with the weapon and fire upon her. Having fired the weapon, there'd be enough evidence of it's use to support retaliatory fire from the ATF, so long as he wasn't the one who shot her. This way, he could indirectly follow orders without bearing the responsibility of killing her himself.
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** I think what actually went down in that scene and might make some semblance of sense for his actions was that he never intended to shoot her to begin with. Firing the gun and sending her back inside was all within his plans, as he gave her a useless weapon, and with it, she would appear armed. After attempting to plant it on her, he demanded she run inside. He had no intention of shooting her himself. Instead, he sought to plant the gun in her hands and send her back into the house, incapable of retaliatory fire (in case she changed her mind) on the odds that another ATF member would see her with the weapon and fire upon her. Having fired the weapon, gun himself, there'd be enough evidence of it's use to support retaliatory fire from the ATF, so long as he wasn't the one who shot to shoot her. This way, he could indirectly follow orders without bearing the responsibility of killing her himself.
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** I think what actually went down in that scene and might make some semblance of sense for his actions was that he never intended to shoot her to begin with. Firing the gun and sending her back inside was all within his plans, as he gave her a useless weapon, and with it, she would appear armed. After attempting to plant it on her, he demanded she run inside. He had no intention of shooting her himself. Instead, he sought to plant the gun in her hands and send her back into the house, incapable of retaliatory fire (in case she changed her mind) on the odds that another ATF member would see her with the weapon and fire upon her. Having fired the weapon, there'd be enough evidence of it's use to support retaliatory fire from the ATF, so long as he wasn't the one who shot her. This way, he could indirectly follow orders without bearing the responsibility of killing her himself.
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**** GSR would be all over her shirt and harm from firing a weapon and the bullets would be recoverable down-field. He was forcing her to grab his untraced plant-piece because these guys are all crooked.
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**** GSR would be all over her shirt shirt, hand, face and harm firing arm, from firing a weapon and while standing -- plus the bullets would be recoverable by forensics from far down-field. He was forcing her to grab his untraced plant-piece because these guys are all crooked.crooked and he was merely following orders.
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GSR reason plus down-field bullets to be recovered by forensics
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**** GSR would be all over her shirt and harm from firing a weapon and the bullets would be recoverable down-field. He was forcing her to grab his untraced plant-piece because these guys are all crooked.
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**** This. The entire point is that the film is presenting a mockery of the WBC and their attitude as presented in public; It doesn't really require one of the protagonists to be gay since the entire point is that the WBC-expies don't ''really'' hate 'fags', but they loathe ''everything''.
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**** But nothing about the movie needs the kids to be gay. They could have been and it would have worked, sure, but simply not having them be gay isn't being intolerant of gays.
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*** Because it smells of hypocritism. Lets mock The WBE and their God Hates Fag-nes, but oh! we can't have the protagonists be gay, since that woulödn't sell any tickets. It's like if you made a Blaxploitation film but changed the plot in order to create a scenario where the protagonist was white.
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*** GSR doesn't work like that. The original poster has every reason to be bugged. Every part of that exchange was just dumb and illogical. If the agent knew how forensic evidence worked at all, he wouldn't have gone to the trouble of trying to '''badly''' fabricate some. He would have done what the rest of the team was doing and simply gone into follow orders mode and killed everybody. If he was trying to protect her, nothing about what he did makes any sense: arming her with a disarmed weapon, sending her back into the line of fire; it just doesn't add up. And if he were trying to make it look like be had to kill her to protect himself, and was trying to fabricate forensics to support returning fire, he would know that shooting her in the back while she ran inside wouldn't look good either. No, that whole scene is flipping off the MST3KMantra.
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*** GSR doesn't work like that. The original poster has every reason to be bugged. Every part of that exchange was just dumb and illogical. If the agent knew how forensic evidence worked at all, he wouldn't have gone to the trouble of trying to '''badly''' fabricate some. He would have done what the rest of the team was doing and simply gone into follow orders mode and killed everybody. If he was trying to protect her, nothing about what he did makes any sense: arming her with a disarmed weapon, sending her back into the line of fire; it just doesn't add up. And if he were trying to make it look like be had to kill her to protect himself, and was trying to fabricate forensics to support returning fire, he would know that shooting her in the back while she ran inside wouldn't look good either. No, that whole scene is flipping off the MST3KMantra.MST3KMantra.
** My two cents on it: the agent was struggling between choosing to gun her down as the orders said to and letting her go back and try to rescue the kids. He settles on the second option, but decides to empty his revolver and give it to her unloaded so she has a way to appear armed to her family without the possibility of actually shooting him.
** My two cents on it: the agent was struggling between choosing to gun her down as the orders said to and letting her go back and try to rescue the kids. He settles on the second option, but decides to empty his revolver and give it to her unloaded so she has a way to appear armed to her family without the possibility of actually shooting him.
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** [[SarcasmMode Why wasn't one of the kids black? Or deaf? or Muslim? Or any other minority?]] First of all, one of the trio was hinted at being bi-curious, second of all, [[FridgeBrilliance maybe the whole point was]] that the WBC-{{Expy}} ideology of intolerance doesn't just target gays but HatesEveryoneEqually.
to:
** [[SarcasmMode Why wasn't one of the kids black? Or deaf? or Muslim? Or any other minority?]] First of all, one of the trio was ''was'' hinted at being bi-curious, [[BiTheWay bi-curious]], second of all, [[FridgeBrilliance maybe the whole point was]] that the WBC-{{Expy}} ideology of intolerance doesn't just target gays but HatesEveryoneEqually.
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** [[SarcasmMode Why wasn't one of the kids black? Or deaf? or Muslim? Or any other minority?]] First of all, one of the trio was hinted at being bi-curious, second of all, [[FridgeBrilliance maybe the whole point was]] that the WBC-{{Expy}} ideology of intolerance doesn't just target gays but HatesEveryoneEqually.
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* Why the hell wasn't the kids from the opening gay? And is there any way to answer that question without pointing out the inherit hypocrisy of this movie? "We can make a film where we mock the fanatical anti-gay agenda; but God knows we can't have the Hero be Gay!"
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Changed line(s) 10 (click to see context) from:
*** GSR doesn't work like that. The orgiinal poster has every reason to be bugged. Every part of that exchange was just dumb and illogical. If the agent knew how forensic evidence worked at all, he wouldn't have gone to the trouble of trying to '''badly''' fabricate some. He would have done what the rest of the team was doing and simply gone into follow orders more and killed everybody. If he was trying to protect her, nothing about what he did makes any sense: arming her with a disarmed weapon, sending her back into the line of fire; it just doesn't add up. And if he were trying to make it look like be had to kill her and was trying to fabricate forensics to support returning fire, he would know that shooting her in the back while she ran inside wouldn't look good either. No, that whole scene is flipping off the MST3KMantra.
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*** GSR doesn't work like that. The orgiinal original poster has every reason to be bugged. Every part of that exchange was just dumb and illogical. If the agent knew how forensic evidence worked at all, he wouldn't have gone to the trouble of trying to '''badly''' fabricate some. He would have done what the rest of the team was doing and simply gone into follow orders more mode and killed everybody. If he was trying to protect her, nothing about what he did makes any sense: arming her with a disarmed weapon, sending her back into the line of fire; it just doesn't add up. And if he were trying to make it look like be had to kill her to protect himself, and was trying to fabricate forensics to support returning fire, he would know that shooting her in the back while she ran inside wouldn't look good either. No, that whole scene is flipping off the MST3KMantra.
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Changed line(s) 9 (click to see context) from:
** If someone has fired a gun recently, there will be gunshot residue on him. The way that the ATF agent held the pistol near her hand and fired it away from her, it looked to this troper like he was trying to make it look like she'd been firing it, planting traces for Forensics to find. Also, if he had gotten her to hold the gun, her fingerprints would be on it.
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** If someone has fired a gun recently, there will be gunshot residue on him. The way that the ATF agent held the pistol near her hand and fired it away from her, it looked to this troper like he was trying to make it look like she'd been firing it, planting traces for Forensics to find. Also, if he had gotten her to hold the gun, her fingerprints would be on it.it.
*** GSR doesn't work like that. The orgiinal poster has every reason to be bugged. Every part of that exchange was just dumb and illogical. If the agent knew how forensic evidence worked at all, he wouldn't have gone to the trouble of trying to '''badly''' fabricate some. He would have done what the rest of the team was doing and simply gone into follow orders more and killed everybody. If he was trying to protect her, nothing about what he did makes any sense: arming her with a disarmed weapon, sending her back into the line of fire; it just doesn't add up. And if he were trying to make it look like be had to kill her and was trying to fabricate forensics to support returning fire, he would know that shooting her in the back while she ran inside wouldn't look good either. No, that whole scene is flipping off the MST3KMantra.
*** GSR doesn't work like that. The orgiinal poster has every reason to be bugged. Every part of that exchange was just dumb and illogical. If the agent knew how forensic evidence worked at all, he wouldn't have gone to the trouble of trying to '''badly''' fabricate some. He would have done what the rest of the team was doing and simply gone into follow orders more and killed everybody. If he was trying to protect her, nothing about what he did makes any sense: arming her with a disarmed weapon, sending her back into the line of fire; it just doesn't add up. And if he were trying to make it look like be had to kill her and was trying to fabricate forensics to support returning fire, he would know that shooting her in the back while she ran inside wouldn't look good either. No, that whole scene is flipping off the MST3KMantra.
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.
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** He easily could have been trying to make it seem like he killed her, which is why the fired the gun, and gave her to gun, for some random reason. He is seen questioning the order to kill her, and I doubt he would have been willing to shoot her, even with the orders.
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** He easily could have been trying to make it seem like he killed her, which is why the fired the gun, and gave her to gun, for some random reason. He is seen questioning the order to kill her, and I doubt he would have been willing to shoot her, even with the orders.orders.
**If someone has fired a gun recently, there will be gunshot residue on him. The way that the ATF agent held the pistol near her hand and fired it away from her, it looked to this troper like he was trying to make it look like she'd been firing it, planting traces for Forensics to find. Also, if he had gotten her to hold the gun, her fingerprints would be on it.
**If someone has fired a gun recently, there will be gunshot residue on him. The way that the ATF agent held the pistol near her hand and fired it away from her, it looked to this troper like he was trying to make it look like she'd been firing it, planting traces for Forensics to find. Also, if he had gotten her to hold the gun, her fingerprints would be on it.
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Changed line(s) 8 (click to see context) from:
** He easily could have been trying to make it seem like he killed her, and gave her to gun, for some random reason. He is seen questioning the order to kill her, and I doubt he would have been willing to shoot her.
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** He easily could have been trying to make it seem like he killed her, which is why the fired the gun, and gave her to gun, for some random reason. He is seen questioning the order to kill her, and I doubt he would have been willing to shoot her.her, even with the orders.
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*** That's entirely possible, but then he had no reason to pretend she was armed by giving her an empty gun.
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*** That's entirely possible, but then he had no reason to pretend she was armed by giving her an empty gun.gun.
** He easily could have been trying to make it seem like he killed her, and gave her to gun, for some random reason. He is seen questioning the order to kill her, and I doubt he would have been willing to shoot her.
** He easily could have been trying to make it seem like he killed her, and gave her to gun, for some random reason. He is seen questioning the order to kill her, and I doubt he would have been willing to shoot her.
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Removed entries not dealing with plot holes
Deleted line(s) 1,3 (click to see context) :
* Why is this movie considered a horror film or even a thriller? I might have to rewatch it, but all I saw was a relatively light hearted (due to Kevin Smith's amusing dialogue) hostage/siege action flick. Sure, the beginning feels a lot like going into Hostel territory, but it [[GenreShift turnes very quickly around and abandons the (kinda)creepy atmosphere]]. Imdb lists a 97 minute version, did the gory/horrific stuff get edited out in the 88min cut or has tv tropes turned me into some coldhearted cynic already?
** It's not just you. While Kevin Smith was clearly shooting for a horror film, he failed horribly. To call RedState unfocused would be extremely charitable.
** It's not just you. While Kevin Smith was clearly shooting for a horror film, he failed horribly. To call RedState unfocused would be extremely charitable.
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*** That's entirely possible, but then he had no reason to pretend she was armed by giving her an empty gun.
* The original ending. Everyone dies, John Goodman's character survives long enough to see an angel and the start of the Rapture. Mr. Smith... You do know you already did a movie based around the apocalypse? How it was a comedy and might be considered still silly the second time around? And considering the unfocused nature of the movie that would be considered a pretty big shark jumping moment, wouldn't it?
* The original ending. Everyone dies, John Goodman's character survives long enough to see an angel and the start of the Rapture. Mr. Smith... You do know you already did a movie based around the apocalypse? How it was a comedy and might be considered still silly the second time around? And considering the unfocused nature of the movie that would be considered a pretty big shark jumping moment, wouldn't it?
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*** That's entirely possible, but then he had no reason to pretend she was armed by giving her an empty gun.
* The original ending. Everyone dies, John Goodman's character survives long enough to see an angel and the start of the Rapture. Mr. Smith... You do know you already did a movie based around the apocalypse? How it was a comedy and might be considered still silly the second time around? And considering the unfocused nature of the movie that would be considered a pretty big shark jumping moment, wouldn't it?gun.
* The original ending. Everyone dies, John Goodman's character survives long enough to see an angel and the start of the Rapture. Mr. Smith... You do know you already did a movie based around the apocalypse? How it was a comedy and might be considered still silly the second time around? And considering the unfocused nature of the movie that would be considered a pretty big shark jumping moment, wouldn't it?
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Changed line(s) 10 (click to see context) from:
*** That's entirely possible, but then he had no reason to pretend she was armed by giving her an empty gun.
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*** That's entirely possible, but then he had no reason to pretend she was armed by giving her an empty gun.gun.
* The original ending. Everyone dies, John Goodman's character survives long enough to see an angel and the start of the Rapture. Mr. Smith... You do know you already did a movie based around the apocalypse? How it was a comedy and might be considered still silly the second time around? And considering the unfocused nature of the movie that would be considered a pretty big shark jumping moment, wouldn't it?
* The original ending. Everyone dies, John Goodman's character survives long enough to see an angel and the start of the Rapture. Mr. Smith... You do know you already did a movie based around the apocalypse? How it was a comedy and might be considered still silly the second time around? And considering the unfocused nature of the movie that would be considered a pretty big shark jumping moment, wouldn't it?
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Changed line(s) 9 (click to see context) from:
** Maybe he just was one of those kinds of guys that just couldn't shoot an unarmed person? Some people are just too good hearted for their own good and he may have been one of them. Who knows.
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** Maybe he just was one of those kinds of guys that just couldn't shoot an unarmed person? Some people are just too good hearted for their own good and he may have been one of them. Who knows.knows.
*** That's entirely possible, but then he had no reason to pretend she was armed by giving her an empty gun.
*** That's entirely possible, but then he had no reason to pretend she was armed by giving her an empty gun.
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**** Again, He fired off all the rounds first. Giving her an unloaded handgun does nothing for her or him.
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*** That's not what I got from that scene at all. I assumed that he wanted her to ''live'', and that he gave her the gun for self-defense.
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*** I guess my real question is about the gun. He was struggling to force it into her hand (after firing off the shots), but there was no need to do that while she was alive. Shoot her and throw the gun next to her body, that's how real Dirty Cops have done it. Wrestling with her to force the gun into her hand is what allowed the mother to sneak up on him.
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*** I guess my real question is about the gun. He was struggling to force it into her hand (after firing off the shots), but there was no need to do that while she was alive. Shoot her and throw the gun next to her body, that's how real Dirty Cops have done it. Wrestling with her to force the gun into her hand is what allowed the mother to sneak up on him.him.
** Maybe he just was one of those kinds of guys that just couldn't shoot an unarmed person? Some people are just too good hearted for their own good and he may have been one of them. Who knows.
** Maybe he just was one of those kinds of guys that just couldn't shoot an unarmed person? Some people are just too good hearted for their own good and he may have been one of them. Who knows.
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** It appeared that he was trying to send her back in, she just wouldn't because she knew damn well what was going to happen if she did.
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** It appeared that he was trying to send her back in, she just wouldn't because she knew damn well what was going to happen if she did.did.
*** I guess my real question is about the gun. He was struggling to force it into her hand (after firing off the shots), but there was no need to do that while she was alive. Shoot her and throw the gun next to her body, that's how real Dirty Cops have done it. Wrestling with her to force the gun into her hand is what allowed the mother to sneak up on him.
*** I guess my real question is about the gun. He was struggling to force it into her hand (after firing off the shots), but there was no need to do that while she was alive. Shoot her and throw the gun next to her body, that's how real Dirty Cops have done it. Wrestling with her to force the gun into her hand is what allowed the mother to sneak up on him.
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* The whole scene with the ATF agent and Cheyenne behind the house bugs me. First, there didn't seem to be a wall on that side of the house, so why not send agents to breach from that direction? Second, what was he trying to do by giving Cheyenne his backup handgun? If he wanted to make it look like a justified shooting, all he needed to do was plant it on her ''after'' killing her. If he couldn't bring himself to kill her and wanted the other agents to do it, he could have just sent her back into the house and returned to his post.
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* The whole scene with the ATF agent and Cheyenne behind the house bugs me. First, there didn't seem to be a wall on that side of the house, so why not send agents to breach from that direction? Second, what was he trying to do by giving Cheyenne his backup handgun? If he wanted to make it look like a justified shooting, all he needed to do was plant it on her ''after'' killing her. If he couldn't bring himself to kill her and wanted the other agents to do it, he could have just sent her back into the house and returned to his post.post.
** It appeared that he was trying to send her back in, she just wouldn't because she knew damn well what was going to happen if she did.
** It appeared that he was trying to send her back in, she just wouldn't because she knew damn well what was going to happen if she did.
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** It's not just you. While Kevin Smith was clearly shooting for a horror film, he failed horribly. To call RedState unfocused would be extremely charitable.
to:
** It's not just you. While Kevin Smith was clearly shooting for a horror film, he failed horribly. To call RedState unfocused would be extremely charitable.charitable.
* The whole scene with the ATF agent and Cheyenne behind the house bugs me. First, there didn't seem to be a wall on that side of the house, so why not send agents to breach from that direction? Second, what was he trying to do by giving Cheyenne his backup handgun? If he wanted to make it look like a justified shooting, all he needed to do was plant it on her ''after'' killing her. If he couldn't bring himself to kill her and wanted the other agents to do it, he could have just sent her back into the house and returned to his post.
* The whole scene with the ATF agent and Cheyenne behind the house bugs me. First, there didn't seem to be a wall on that side of the house, so why not send agents to breach from that direction? Second, what was he trying to do by giving Cheyenne his backup handgun? If he wanted to make it look like a justified shooting, all he needed to do was plant it on her ''after'' killing her. If he couldn't bring himself to kill her and wanted the other agents to do it, he could have just sent her back into the house and returned to his post.
