History Headscratchers / RedDawn1984

4th May '17 9:46:25 PM Ansongc2000
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** You forget that the President isn't the only one involved in this decision. If the Russians nuked the midwest, took out NORAD(presumably) and invaded the midwest in an suprise first strike, if the President decided that even a soviet first strike and executing American civilians in occupied areas and putting Americans in gulags wasn't enough to warrent nuclear reliation, I can imagine congress, not to mention to Joint Chiefs and the DoD, would be looking for anyway to remove the President from office and put someone into office who would strike back. Though just allowing the Russians to invade the US mainland and Nuke us would likely be more the enough for the president's approval rating to drop to 0% pretty damn quickly. Refusing to strike back would be asking for a military coup.

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** You forget that the President isn't the only one involved in this decision. If the Russians nuked the midwest, took out NORAD(presumably) and invaded the midwest in an suprise surprise first strike, if the President decided that even a soviet first strike and executing American civilians in occupied areas and putting Americans in gulags wasn't enough to warrent warrant nuclear reliation, retaliation, I can imagine congress, not to mention to Joint Chiefs and the DoD, would be looking for anyway to remove the President from office and put someone into office who would strike back. Though just allowing the Russians to invade the US mainland and Nuke us would likely be more the enough for the president's approval rating to drop to 0% pretty damn quickly. Refusing to strike back would be asking for a military coup.
** So the film's scenario was unrealistic. Gee, nobody's ever pointed that our before.



* Is it just me, or is the NotSoDifferent moment in the movie completely pointless? In what way are the Wolverines in any way like the Soviets? The Soviets are an invading force that has used nuclear warfare and executed civilians. The Wolverines have...killed enemy combatants. Not to mention they're guerilla fighters and dont have the capacity to take and keep prisoners of war, making execution the only logistical alternative. So how exactly does the comparison work?

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* Is it just me, or is the NotSoDifferent moment in the movie completely pointless? In what way are the Wolverines in any way like the Soviets? The Soviets are an invading force that has used nuclear warfare and executed civilians. The Wolverines have...killed enemy combatants. Not to mention they're guerilla fighters and dont don't have the capacity to take and keep prisoners of war, making execution the only logistical alternative. So how exactly does the comparison work?
18th Apr '17 3:02:33 PM Ansongc2000
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** The scene was probably haphazardly added when the writer realized he was getting a little ''too'' jingoistic. But it's really the banality of evil. Shooting civilians is their day job, and their failure to question their orders makes them terrible people, but they are still people, and [[WarIsHell]].

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** The scene was probably haphazardly added when the writer realized he was getting a little ''too'' jingoistic. But it's really the banality of evil. Shooting civilians is their day job, and their failure to question their orders makes them terrible people, but they are still people, and [[WarIsHell]].[[WarIsHell war is hell]].
18th Apr '17 3:01:43 PM Ansongc2000
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** Except they are LITERALLY INVADERS. Who shoot down unarmed, helpless civilians in the street. Even the most naive, idealistic soldier would have trouble justifying that to themselves. You cant invade a country and complain when the people living there shoot at you.

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** Except they are LITERALLY INVADERS. Who shoot down unarmed, helpless civilians in the street. Even the most naive, idealistic soldier would have trouble justifying that to themselves. You cant invade a country and complain when the people living there shoot at you.you.
** The scene was probably haphazardly added when the writer realized he was getting a little ''too'' jingoistic. But it's really the banality of evil. Shooting civilians is their day job, and their failure to question their orders makes them terrible people, but they are still people, and [[WarIsHell]].
8th Apr '17 10:32:10 PM Hawkeye86
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** The Soviet footsoldiers did not make the decision to launch nuclear weapons or invade a foreign nation. They're just some young guys serving their country and doing what they're told, not entirely unlike many of the Wolverines.
** Except they are LITERALLY INVADERS. Who shoot down unarmed, helpless civilians in the street. Even the most naive, idealistic soldier would have trouble justifying that to themselves. You cant invade a country and complain when the people living there shoot at you.
*** Yes they can, chalk it up to a combination of MoralMyopia and RealityIsUnrealistic. Consider the reaction of the general public, and coalition active combatants, during the 2000s to troop casualties in Iraq. [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgement And that is all I'm going to say on that subject]].

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** The Soviet footsoldiers foot soldiers did not make the decision to launch nuclear weapons or invade a foreign nation. They're just some young guys serving their country and doing what they're told, not entirely unlike many of the Wolverines.
** Except they are LITERALLY INVADERS. Who shoot down unarmed, helpless civilians in the street. Even the most naive, idealistic soldier would have trouble justifying that to themselves. You cant invade a country and complain when the people living there shoot at you.
*** Yes they can, chalk it up to a combination of MoralMyopia and RealityIsUnrealistic. Consider the reaction of the general public, and coalition active combatants, during the 2000s to troop casualties in Iraq. [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgement And that is all I'm going to say on that subject]].
you.
1st Mar '17 8:37:41 AM rustycrackers
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**** Your assumptions are incorrect, and the AFADS round has consistently penetrated even the most modern T-72s. While no M1A1 has ever been penetrated by a T-72. I don't know what tests you are talking about but I have some first hand experience on this subject. The T-72 is old tech, it's cheap, reliable (except for the auto-loading system) and that's about it. Like most Soviet era weapons it's a glass cannon.
25th Jul '16 9:01:09 PM TheD3rp
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**** That's complete bullshit, the T-72s by used by the Iraqi's were operated by inferior crews and were early export variants armed with steel-core sabot ammunition the Soviets had phased out in ''1973''. Most of the mainline T-72s in Europe had Kontankt-5 ERA, which tests proved the M1A1's 120mm gun could not reliably penetrate even with its M829A1 "Silver Bullet" round. And don't even get me started on the T-80U.
21st Jul '16 12:00:29 AM Cybrludite
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*** The Chinese nuclear arsenal at the time was a dozen ICBM that used non-storable liquid fuels, a couple score of intermediate and short range missiles, and some obsolescent medium bombers. They might be able to toast Moscow, if they could get their missiles fueled and launched in time, and Moscow's ABM defenses didn't stop everything inbound, but now-way no-how were they hitting the Soviets the way we could have.
29th Jun '16 7:46:41 PM Mikey34
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*** Jed didn't need to accept any recruits, and it still doesn't answer the question of why they didn't receive more assistance. You'd expect multiple resistance groups running around, unaffiliated with each other, and for no other purpose than to make life as miserable as possible for the communist occupying force. We do see the Wolverines passing out AKs to everybody at the prison camp, just because Jed isn't accepting recruits doesn't mean that unaffiliated resistance groups aren't running around.
26th May '16 9:21:55 PM Fallenaquila
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*** Except that is a complete myth about the Iraqi T-72's, most of them in Gulf-war 1, were soviet spec'd and were not only Republican Guard (saddam's elite) but also followed Soviet Tank doctrine to the letter. The truth is, that while American expectations of the soviet armor divisions were high, by the 1980's NATIO armor divisions outclassed the soviet divisions, especially with things like DU armor and better optics. Where as both had guns capable of reaching 4000m+, only the M1 could shoot that far and shoot as far as 2500m while moving. The only reason the 72 was still produced is because the T-80 was having massive production issues, which was crippled by the failing soviet (and recovering post-soviet) economy. Hence why the Chinese moved to a T-99 platform and now the russians are moving to that new T-90 and T-14.

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*** Except that is a complete myth about the Iraqi T-72's, most of them in Gulf-war 1, were soviet spec'd and were not only Republican Guard (saddam's elite) but also followed Soviet Tank doctrine to the letter. The truth is, that while American expectations of the soviet armor divisions were high, by the 1980's NATIO armor divisions outclassed the soviet divisions, especially with things like DU armor and better optics. Where as both had guns capable of reaching 4000m+, only the M1 (and the Leopard 2 if I remember correctly could shoot accurately hit at that far and shoot as far as 2500m while moving.moving. Basically, the soviets would be hitting the ground near nato tanks while nato tanks were blasting into their front armor. The only reason the 72 was still produced is because the T-80 was having massive production issues, which was crippled by the failing soviet (and recovering post-soviet) economy. Hence why the Chinese moved to a T-99 platform and now the russians are moving to that new T-90 and T-14.
26th May '16 9:19:17 PM Fallenaquila
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** Ironically, as the incredibly lopsided kill ratios in the two Gulf Wars showed, an actual tank battle between one M1 Abrams and two T-72s would have been over in a matter of seconds and the Wolverines wouldn't even have had time to get involved. But in 1985 everyone was too gulled by Soviet propaganda/taking counsel from their fears to recognize that Soviet tanks would prove to be little more than shooting gallery ducks against the M1. If the soviets went through the Fulda Gap they would have been jammed up with too many hollowed out 72's till it was a stand still. The only reason the 72 was still produced is because the T-80 was having massive production issues, which was crippled by the failing soviet (and recovering post-soviet) economy. Hence why the Chinese moved to a T-99 platform and now the russians are moving to that new T-90 and T-14.

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** Ironically, as the incredibly lopsided kill ratios in the two Gulf Wars showed, an actual tank battle between one M1 Abrams and two T-72s would have been over in a matter of seconds and the Wolverines wouldn't even have had time to get involved. But in 1985 everyone was too gulled by Soviet propaganda/taking counsel from their fears to recognize that Soviet tanks would prove to be little more than shooting gallery ducks against the M1. If the soviets went through the Fulda Gap they would have been jammed up with too many hollowed out 72's till it was a stand still. The only reason the 72 was still produced is because the T-80 was having massive production issues, which was crippled by the failing soviet (and recovering post-soviet) economy. Hence why the Chinese moved to a T-99 platform and now the russians are moving to that new T-90 and T-14.



*** Except that is a complete myth about the Iraqi T-72's, most of them in Gulf-war 1, were soviet spec'd and were not only Republican Guard (saddam's elite) but also followed Soviet Tank doctrine to the letter. The truth is, that while American expectations of the soviet armor divisions were high, by the 1980's NATIO armor divisions outclassed the soviet divisions, especially with things like DU armor and better optics. Where as both had guns capable of reaching 4000m+, only the M1 could shoot that far and shoot as far as 2500m while moving.

to:

*** Except that is a complete myth about the Iraqi T-72's, most of them in Gulf-war 1, were soviet spec'd and were not only Republican Guard (saddam's elite) but also followed Soviet Tank doctrine to the letter. The truth is, that while American expectations of the soviet armor divisions were high, by the 1980's NATIO armor divisions outclassed the soviet divisions, especially with things like DU armor and better optics. Where as both had guns capable of reaching 4000m+, only the M1 could shoot that far and shoot as far as 2500m while moving. The only reason the 72 was still produced is because the T-80 was having massive production issues, which was crippled by the failing soviet (and recovering post-soviet) economy. Hence why the Chinese moved to a T-99 platform and now the russians are moving to that new T-90 and T-14.
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