History Headscratchers / RedDawn1984

25th Jul '16 9:01:09 PM TheD3rp
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**** That's complete bullshit, the T-72s by used by the Iraqi's were operated by inferior crews and were early export variants armed with steel-core sabot ammunition the Soviets had phased out in ''1973''. Most of the mainline T-72s in Europe had Kontankt-5 ERA, which tests proved the M1A1's 120mm gun could not reliably penetrate even with its M829A1 "Silver Bullet" round. And don't even get me started on the T-80U.
21st Jul '16 12:00:29 AM Cybrludite
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*** The Chinese nuclear arsenal at the time was a dozen ICBM that used non-storable liquid fuels, a couple score of intermediate and short range missiles, and some obsolescent medium bombers. They might be able to toast Moscow, if they could get their missiles fueled and launched in time, and Moscow's ABM defenses didn't stop everything inbound, but now-way no-how were they hitting the Soviets the way we could have.
29th Jun '16 7:46:41 PM Mikey34
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*** Jed didn't need to accept any recruits, and it still doesn't answer the question of why they didn't receive more assistance. You'd expect multiple resistance groups running around, unaffiliated with each other, and for no other purpose than to make life as miserable as possible for the communist occupying force. We do see the Wolverines passing out AKs to everybody at the prison camp, just because Jed isn't accepting recruits doesn't mean that unaffiliated resistance groups aren't running around.
26th May '16 9:21:55 PM Fallenaquila
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*** Except that is a complete myth about the Iraqi T-72's, most of them in Gulf-war 1, were soviet spec'd and were not only Republican Guard (saddam's elite) but also followed Soviet Tank doctrine to the letter. The truth is, that while American expectations of the soviet armor divisions were high, by the 1980's NATIO armor divisions outclassed the soviet divisions, especially with things like DU armor and better optics. Where as both had guns capable of reaching 4000m+, only the M1 could shoot that far and shoot as far as 2500m while moving. The only reason the 72 was still produced is because the T-80 was having massive production issues, which was crippled by the failing soviet (and recovering post-soviet) economy. Hence why the Chinese moved to a T-99 platform and now the russians are moving to that new T-90 and T-14.

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*** Except that is a complete myth about the Iraqi T-72's, most of them in Gulf-war 1, were soviet spec'd and were not only Republican Guard (saddam's elite) but also followed Soviet Tank doctrine to the letter. The truth is, that while American expectations of the soviet armor divisions were high, by the 1980's NATIO armor divisions outclassed the soviet divisions, especially with things like DU armor and better optics. Where as both had guns capable of reaching 4000m+, only the M1 (and the Leopard 2 if I remember correctly could shoot accurately hit at that far and shoot as far as 2500m while moving.moving. Basically, the soviets would be hitting the ground near nato tanks while nato tanks were blasting into their front armor. The only reason the 72 was still produced is because the T-80 was having massive production issues, which was crippled by the failing soviet (and recovering post-soviet) economy. Hence why the Chinese moved to a T-99 platform and now the russians are moving to that new T-90 and T-14.
26th May '16 9:19:17 PM Fallenaquila
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** Ironically, as the incredibly lopsided kill ratios in the two Gulf Wars showed, an actual tank battle between one M1 Abrams and two T-72s would have been over in a matter of seconds and the Wolverines wouldn't even have had time to get involved. But in 1985 everyone was too gulled by Soviet propaganda/taking counsel from their fears to recognize that Soviet tanks would prove to be little more than shooting gallery ducks against the M1. If the soviets went through the Fulda Gap they would have been jammed up with too many hollowed out 72's till it was a stand still. The only reason the 72 was still produced is because the T-80 was having massive production issues, which was crippled by the failing soviet (and recovering post-soviet) economy. Hence why the Chinese moved to a T-99 platform and now the russians are moving to that new T-90 and T-14.

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** Ironically, as the incredibly lopsided kill ratios in the two Gulf Wars showed, an actual tank battle between one M1 Abrams and two T-72s would have been over in a matter of seconds and the Wolverines wouldn't even have had time to get involved. But in 1985 everyone was too gulled by Soviet propaganda/taking counsel from their fears to recognize that Soviet tanks would prove to be little more than shooting gallery ducks against the M1. If the soviets went through the Fulda Gap they would have been jammed up with too many hollowed out 72's till it was a stand still. The only reason the 72 was still produced is because the T-80 was having massive production issues, which was crippled by the failing soviet (and recovering post-soviet) economy. Hence why the Chinese moved to a T-99 platform and now the russians are moving to that new T-90 and T-14.



*** Except that is a complete myth about the Iraqi T-72's, most of them in Gulf-war 1, were soviet spec'd and were not only Republican Guard (saddam's elite) but also followed Soviet Tank doctrine to the letter. The truth is, that while American expectations of the soviet armor divisions were high, by the 1980's NATIO armor divisions outclassed the soviet divisions, especially with things like DU armor and better optics. Where as both had guns capable of reaching 4000m+, only the M1 could shoot that far and shoot as far as 2500m while moving.

to:

*** Except that is a complete myth about the Iraqi T-72's, most of them in Gulf-war 1, were soviet spec'd and were not only Republican Guard (saddam's elite) but also followed Soviet Tank doctrine to the letter. The truth is, that while American expectations of the soviet armor divisions were high, by the 1980's NATIO armor divisions outclassed the soviet divisions, especially with things like DU armor and better optics. Where as both had guns capable of reaching 4000m+, only the M1 could shoot that far and shoot as far as 2500m while moving. The only reason the 72 was still produced is because the T-80 was having massive production issues, which was crippled by the failing soviet (and recovering post-soviet) economy. Hence why the Chinese moved to a T-99 platform and now the russians are moving to that new T-90 and T-14.
26th May '16 9:18:36 PM Fallenaquila
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** Ironically, as the incredibly lopsided kill ratios in the two Gulf Wars showed, an actual tank battle between one M1 Abrams and two T-72s would have been over in a matter of seconds and the Wolverines wouldn't even have had time to get involved. But in 1985 everyone was too gulled by Soviet propaganda/taking counsel from their fears to recognize that Soviet tanks would prove to be little more than shooting gallery ducks against the M1.

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** Ironically, as the incredibly lopsided kill ratios in the two Gulf Wars showed, an actual tank battle between one M1 Abrams and two T-72s would have been over in a matter of seconds and the Wolverines wouldn't even have had time to get involved. But in 1985 everyone was too gulled by Soviet propaganda/taking counsel from their fears to recognize that Soviet tanks would prove to be little more than shooting gallery ducks against the M1. If the soviets went through the Fulda Gap they would have been jammed up with too many hollowed out 72's till it was a stand still. The only reason the 72 was still produced is because the T-80 was having massive production issues, which was crippled by the failing soviet (and recovering post-soviet) economy. Hence why the Chinese moved to a T-99 platform and now the russians are moving to that new T-90 and T-14.


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****Except that is a complete myth about the Iraqi T-72's, most of them in Gulf-war 1, were soviet spec'd and were not only Republican Guard (saddam's elite) but also followed Soviet Tank doctrine to the letter. The truth is, that while American expectations of the soviet armor divisions were high, by the 1980's NATIO armor divisions outclassed the soviet divisions, especially with things like DU armor and better optics. Where as both had guns capable of reaching 4000m+, only the M1 could shoot that far and shoot as far as 2500m while moving.
7th Sep '15 4:45:47 AM CrypticMirror
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** Except they are LITERALLY INVADERS. Who shoot down unarmed, helpless civilians in the street. Even the most naive, idealistic soldier would have trouble justifying that to themselves. You cant invade a country and complain when the people living there shoot at you.

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** Except they are LITERALLY INVADERS. Who shoot down unarmed, helpless civilians in the street. Even the most naive, idealistic soldier would have trouble justifying that to themselves. You cant invade a country and complain when the people living there shoot at you.you.
*** Yes they can, chalk it up to a combination of MoralMyopia and RealityIsUnrealistic. Consider the reaction of the general public, and coalition active combatants, during the 2000s to troop casualties in Iraq. [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgement And that is all I'm going to say on that subject]].
6th Sep '15 8:11:02 PM SilentStranger
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** The Soviet footsoldiers did not make the decision to launch nuclear weapons or invade a foreign nation. They're just some young guys serving their country and doing what they're told, not entirely unlike many of the Wolverines.

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** The Soviet footsoldiers did not make the decision to launch nuclear weapons or invade a foreign nation. They're just some young guys serving their country and doing what they're told, not entirely unlike many of the Wolverines.Wolverines.
** Except they are LITERALLY INVADERS. Who shoot down unarmed, helpless civilians in the street. Even the most naive, idealistic soldier would have trouble justifying that to themselves. You cant invade a country and complain when the people living there shoot at you.
22nd Aug '15 12:30:41 PM AFP
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* Is it just me, or is the NotSoDifferent moment in the movie completely pointless? In what way are the Wolverines in any way like the Soviets? The Soviets are an invading force that has used nuclear warfare and executed civilians. The Wolverines have...killed enemy combatants. Not to mention they're guerilla fighters and dont have the capacity to take and keep prisoners of war, making execution the only logistical alternative. So how exactly does the comparison work?

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* Is it just me, or is the NotSoDifferent moment in the movie completely pointless? In what way are the Wolverines in any way like the Soviets? The Soviets are an invading force that has used nuclear warfare and executed civilians. The Wolverines have...killed enemy combatants. Not to mention they're guerilla fighters and dont have the capacity to take and keep prisoners of war, making execution the only logistical alternative. So how exactly does the comparison work?work?
** The Soviet footsoldiers did not make the decision to launch nuclear weapons or invade a foreign nation. They're just some young guys serving their country and doing what they're told, not entirely unlike many of the Wolverines.
11th Aug '15 6:00:44 PM YT45
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** There's more than just the one machine gunner (actually the vehicle commander). Every tank also has a machine gun mounted coaxially with the main gun, plus the tanks likely have thermal imagers that could negate their camouflage. It was still a rookie mistake for the tank commanders to be buttoned up at the time.


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*** Actually, the T-72 is a very capable main battle tank, which is why it's still in production for the Russian military today. The kill ratios in Iraq were primarily indicative of the fact that Iraqi tankers were far more concerned with looking cool in their badass tanks than actually being competent in the operation of same. In the hands of a crew that knows what the hell they're doing, the T-72 is extremely dangerous. The Abrams is a better tank overall, but 2 on 1 would be bad odds with Red Army Guards in the mix. Additionally, the Abrams is in the open on lower ground, while the T-72s are hull-down on high ground, and it's clear that the Armored Cav guys can't see the Russians (hence Tanner popping smoke to mark the target, and the Armored Cav wasting the T-72 immediately afterwards).
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