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** Her army is powerful, but based on how Ruby and Co encouraged Ironwood to fight it and tried to call for reinforcements, not invincible; it could maybe be defeated by killing all the Grimm Salem has brought with her, and after that, Salem will have to retreat, or get killed over and over until her enemies figure out ''something'' to do with her. (though it'd have been nice to have that clarified in the show). But if her Grimm army is strong enough to terrify Atlas, almost certainly the most technologically advanced army and secure city in history, what chance would the humanity from decades or centuries past have, even if they could get over their pre-great war animosity to work together? [[note]] It's never been stated or implied in the show past armies were stronger, which makes sense given that's more realistic, and a full army of huntsmen-level warriors would be impossible for all but the most Spartan societies, given how long it takes to train one. [[/Note]] And since she's immortal and Grimm naturally occurring, even if she loses, she can probably just try again in a few years/decades on a weakened humanity.
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** Her army is powerful, but based on how Ruby and Co encouraged Ironwood to fight it and tried to call for reinforcements, not invincible; it could maybe be defeated by killing all the Grimm Salem has brought with her, and after that, Salem will have to retreat, or get killed over and over until her enemies figure out ''something'' to do with her. (though it'd have been nice to have that clarified in the show). But if her Grimm army is strong enough to terrify Atlas, almost certainly the most technologically advanced army and secure city in history, what chance would the humanity from decades or centuries past have, even if they could get over their pre-great war animosity to work together? [[note]] It's never been stated or implied in the show past armies were stronger, which makes sense given that's more realistic, and a full army of huntsmen-level warriors would be impossible for all but the most Spartan societies, given how long it takes to train one. [[/Note]] [[/note]] And since she's immortal and Grimm naturally occurring, even if she loses, she can probably just try again in a few years/decades on a weakened humanity.
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[[folder: Salem's tactics given her army]]
* If Salem can raise an army of Grimm strong enough to terrify the Atlas army on their home turf, why doesn't she use it and brute force all her efforts to find the relics, and by extension, how has she not won already? Potential answers are:
** She fears doing so will unite humanity against her, and thus allow Ozpin to complete his mission. But IIRC, she expresses no fear, nor her enemies any hope that that will happen when she does ultimately lead the full assault, which actually makes sense, since if she has just one relic, the threat of Ozpin completing his goal all but vanishes.
** Her army is powerful, but based on how Ruby and Co encouraged Ironwood to fight it and tried to call for reinforcements, not invincible; it could maybe be defeated by killing all the Grimm Salem has brought with her, and after that, Salem will have to retreat, or get killed over and over until her enemies figure out ''something'' to do with her. (though it'd have been nice to have that clarified in the show). But if her Grimm army is strong enough to terrify Atlas, almost certainly the most technologically advanced army and secure city in history, what chance would the humanity from decades or centuries past have, even if they could get over their pre-great war animosity to work together? [[note]] It's never been stated or implied in the show past armies were stronger, which makes sense given that's more realistic, and a full army of huntsmen-level warriors would be impossible for all but the most Spartan societies, given how long it takes to train one. [[/Note]] And since she's immortal and Grimm naturally occurring, even if she loses, she can probably just try again in a few years/decades on a weakened humanity.
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*** That seems WMG at best; while the Hound reveal doesn't outright disprove such a motivation, it doesn't give it much validation because it gives Salem a theoretical pragmatic reasons for having wanted Ruby alive, and places the focus on her Silver Eyes, not her innocence (and honestly, turning Ruby into a Hound and making Ozpin fight or kill her probably isn't the worst possibly thing Salem could do to Ruby from Ozpin's perspective). And when was it ever confirmed that the characters acknowledged that opening conversation as important to current events, or that anyone truly thinks that Ruby is the important simple soul? And sure, Salem has a spiteful side, but is she really willing to put her greater plans in jeopardy to torture one of countless allies to Ozpin now and through the ages? Simply killing Ruby in her relative infancy would certainly hurt Ozpin, so would destroying all the systems he built and, likely, humanity soon after. Seeing Ruby as a Hound certainly couldn't hurt anymore than all that, especially since Ozpin has to understand that Ruby will die eventually. If Salem is that obsessed with torturing Ozpin in every possible, minor way, doesn't seem like she could be as effective at greater villainy as she has been.
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**Concievably to torment Ozpin by breaking his "simple soul."
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[[folder: Salem's Priorities in Regards to Ruby]]
* If Salem ordered Ruby captured alive because she wanted make Ruby into another Hound (which IIRC, the show treats as the answer to this plot-thread), then why didn't Salem rescind the order after Tyrian failed? After that, it should have been clear that capturing Ruby wasn't going to be easy, and forcing your soldiers to pull their punches when dealing with an enemy leader with a superpower especially dangerous to your faction is an obvious recipe for failure. And even accepting that Hounds are as effective as they're supposed to have come across in Vol 8, Salem already has at least one of them, and between them and another human soldier is a tradeoff at best, so how is getting a new one now, after you're waging war openly, any kind of priority?
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* If Salem ordered Ruby captured alive because she wanted make Ruby into another Hound (which IIRC, the show treats as the answer to this plot-thread), then why didn't Salem rescind the order after Tyrian failed? After that, it should have been clear that capturing Ruby wasn't going to be easy, and forcing your soldiers to pull their punches when dealing with an enemy leader with a superpower especially dangerous to your faction is an obvious recipe for failure. And even accepting that Hounds are as effective as they're supposed to have come across in Vol 8, Salem already has at least one of them, and between them and another human soldier is a tradeoff at best, so how is getting a new one now, after you're waging war openly, any kind of priority?
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** Doylistically, this is all is probably the result of two different visions of Ozpin's character. Earlier seasons established a largely peaceful world for various reasons, and characterized Ozpin as an intelligent, largely benevolent immortal. The writers also made the latter responsible for the former which, in isolation, seems smart writing. But in Vol 6, they decided to pull the rug out from under the audience and characters by [[{{Retcon}} revealing]] Ozpin doesn't know what he's doing, even though they'd shown and implied too much that contradicted that. In-universe, Ozpin probably never believed he could unify humanity with Salem around, and thus has no plan beyond maybe a perpetual stalemate, even though his backstory doesn't make sense in context of him believing that, and him believing that doesn't make sense in the context of his backstory.
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***When Ruby first used it, Jinn said she had two questions left before Ruby asked what Ozpin was hiding. If I had to guess, Ozma must have used one for information about some aspect of how he sealed the relics away.
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** One potentially important detail is that the GoL never technically said humanity needed to be united, just not fighting amongst themselves and having put aside their differences. Jinn says Ozpin sees his mission as uniting humanity, but that could just be shorthand for the actually stated objective. This might explain why Ozpin didn't make himself King after the great war and has since focused on more realistic methods to lasting world peace (monarchies tend to have succession crises), but also means that he's even closer to victory that initially believed, since there's been 80 years of lasting peace and Faunus discrimination is probably his only roadblock besides Salem.
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** One potentially important detail is that the GoL God of Light never technically said humanity needed to be united, just not fighting amongst themselves and having put aside their differences. Jinn says Ozpin sees his mission as uniting humanity, but that could just be shorthand for the actually stated objective. This might explain why Ozpin didn't make himself King after the great war and has since focused on more realistic methods to lasting world peace (monarchies tend to have succession crises), but also means that he's even closer to victory that than initially believed, since there's been 80 years of lasting peace and Faunus discrimination is probably his only roadblock besides Salem. Salem.
*** Hell, during volumes 6 and 7, including the point in time when Ozpin said he had no plan, he'd possibly already ''won,'': all four relics were accessible, and the Belladonna's usurping of the White Fang ended the only major violent conflict on Remnant [[note]] (the events of ''Before the Dawn's'' place in the timeline might have complicated this, but they didn't know about that, and much of the belligerent force in that situation were mind-controlled by one man, so they could easily argue it's no more significant to the challenge than another criminal syndicate or bandit tribe. [[/note]] Faunus discrimination was still a thing, and God of Light said "set aside your differences," but one assumes that's only in the context of the next line "no longer fighting amongst yourselves," otherwise you're at best making guesses as to the Gods' senses of social justice, at worst, seeking to create a culturally homogenous world (also likely impossible and immoral.) Yes, hummanitys continued existence being at stake warrants caution, but the threat Salem poses makes not summoning the gods when you have a pretty good, but temporary chance of passing their test a great risk, too, and the point remains that Ozpin seriously sells himself short, or Salem high. And if Ozpin does want the world he presents to the Gods to be the safest bet possible, why did he pass up the chance to create a singular government and give himself more direct control over the project after the Great War?
*** Hell, during volumes 6 and 7, including the point in time when Ozpin said he had no plan, he'd possibly already ''won,'': all four relics were accessible, and the Belladonna's usurping of the White Fang ended the only major violent conflict on Remnant [[note]] (the events of ''Before the Dawn's'' place in the timeline might have complicated this, but they didn't know about that, and much of the belligerent force in that situation were mind-controlled by one man, so they could easily argue it's no more significant to the challenge than another criminal syndicate or bandit tribe. [[/note]] Faunus discrimination was still a thing, and God of Light said "set aside your differences," but one assumes that's only in the context of the next line "no longer fighting amongst yourselves," otherwise you're at best making guesses as to the Gods' senses of social justice, at worst, seeking to create a culturally homogenous world (also likely impossible and immoral.) Yes, hummanitys continued existence being at stake warrants caution, but the threat Salem poses makes not summoning the gods when you have a pretty good, but temporary chance of passing their test a great risk, too, and the point remains that Ozpin seriously sells himself short, or Salem high. And if Ozpin does want the world he presents to the Gods to be the safest bet possible, why did he pass up the chance to create a singular government and give himself more direct control over the project after the Great War?
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*** Not to be used lightly, but again, definitely to be used in a crisis like this, since again, using all the questions makes it less useful to the enemy if stolen, and the answers could prove the only reason the world even lasts another 100 years. Also, didn't they have two left after they asked the first? (now down to one thanks to Cinder, but that's a moot point now since her having it means they can't ask any questions, and wouldn't have been possible if they'd used all the questions and/or used the lamp to prepare for Cinder and Neo.)
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****Well there’s also the fact that they only have one use available before having to wait a century for any more. That’s not something to use lightly.
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making my previous point more concise.
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** Point. But remember; her original motivation for wanting to die was nullified when Ozma came back (then definitively when she turned on him), so if she wants to die now, it's for another reason, presumably being tired of living, so she is capable of coming to ''an'' important revelation about life and death without her hatred of the gods holding her back (and if she realized that wanting to die for its own sake or moving on from the man she wanted back won't lift her curse, she has good reason to be at wits' end as to what the answer is even without her pride.) Not to mention how sepparate "become a more altrustic person" is from "learn the importance of life and death" are as concepts, especially given the context of her curse.
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** Point. But remember; her original motivation for wanting to die was nullified when Ozma came back (then definitively when she turned on him), so if she wants to die now, it's for another reason, presumably being tired of living, so she is capable of coming to ''an'' important revelation about life and death without her hatred of the gods holding her back (and if she realized that wanting to die for its own sake or moving on from the man she wanted back won't lift her curse, she has good reason to be at wits' end as to what the answer is Point, but even without Salem looking for it, observations like these can inform us (and the characters) about her pride.) Not to mention how sepparate "become a more altrustic person" is from "learn curse. And all the importance of life obvious "answers to the riddle" being ruled out means her curse's solution is either extremely esoteric or not normally possible, which informs us about the characters and death" are as concepts, especially given the context of her curse.themes.
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** Point. But remember; her original motivation for wanting to die was nullified when Ozma came back (then definitively when she turned on him), so if she wants to die now, it's for another reason, presumably being tired of living, so she is capable of coming to ''an'' important revelation about life and death without her hatred of the gods holding her back (and if she realized that wanting to die for its own sake or moving on from the man she wanted back won't lift her curse, she has good reason to be at wits' end as to what the answer is even without her pride.) Not to mention how sepparate "become a more altrustic person" is from "learn the importance of life and death" are as concepts, especially given the context of her curse.
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** While we can only theorize over what the God of Light actually wanted Salem to learn, what matters most is that she ''doesn't want'' to learn that, and even though she's changed a lot, she's still incredibly stubborn and selfish. Almost all of her actions depicted in the show serve only two purposes: to get whatever she wants (including Ozma), and to get back at those who wronged her (primarily the gods, and later Oz). She did appreciate life while she could get what she wanted, and her attempts to kill herself are just the means to defy the gods (especially since she knows they're not omniscient) by having her curse undone on her own terms, not the result of her realizing the importance of death. Plus, her callously throwing literally everyone else under the bus clearly shows she hasn't learnt the importance of ''life'' either.
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*** Setting aside of how immature it would be to stop using such a vital resource because of one emotionally bad experience (and they didn't seem eager to distance themselves from it), was their experience with it really that bad? Ruby got to use it to save a city thanks to LoopholeAbuse, and when they asked it a question, Jinn gave them Ozpin's full backstory, which revealed some scary truths, but was effectively what they wanted out of the lamp.
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*** Setting aside of how immature it would be to stop using such a vital resource because of one emotionally bad experience (and they didn't seem eager to distance themselves from it), was their experience with it really that bad? Ruby got to use it to save a city thanks to LoopholeAbuse, LoopholeAbuse that Jinn allowed, and when they asked it a question, Jinn gave them Ozpin's full backstory, which revealed some scary truths, but was effectively what they wanted out of the lamp.lamp. And their collective arc in Volume 6 was about acknowledging the scary truths of their situation, and deciding to fight anyways, so why would they avoid more information from the lamp if it might save countless lives?
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*** But she's clearly moved on from Ozma now, at least in regards to mourning him or wanting him back. Sure, she's not wholly psychologically detached from him, doubtlessly hating him as an enemy and obstacle and probably still holding lingering feelings of betrayal, but how is becoming psychologically detached from someone the same as "the importance of life and death?" Is it that, when someone dies, you have a chance to become a whole new person? That sort of works, even if the person not staying dead skews it, but Light's words implied it was about some kind of balance.
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*** But she's clearly moved on from Ozma now, at least in regards to mourning him or wanting him back. Sure, she's not wholly psychologically detached from him, doubtlessly hating him as an enemy and obstacle and probably still holding lingering feelings of betrayal, but how is becoming psychologically detached from someone the same as "the importance of life and death?" Is it that, when someone dies, you have a chance to can detach from them emotionally and become a whole new person? That sort of works, even if the person not staying dead skews it, it (and it Salem really does want to die, then I'd say she's very much changed as a person even if she is still selfish. Plus, a person doesn't need to die for you to detach emotionally from them) but Light's words implied it was about some kind of balance. "balance."
